I actually laughed out loud at "not you Kissinger"

The terminators are primaris/firstborn. They did the right thing imo, just making terminators an armour type, not a difference between firstborn/primaris

My jaw was on the floor for so much of the reveal, GeeDubs seems to be realizing that the piles of books and layers of superfluous rules are bad for 40K.

The *BASIC* rules are free, as are the immediate data cards. They dangled the "free" string when AoS launched....and shortly after, the main rule book came out....and wasn't free.

The little Jawas are watchers in the dark a unknown xenos race that for no apparent reason follow and serve the dark angels they are extremely resilient to damage and have a interesting warp presence. They are a example of a 40k thing other than orks that is both scary in the unknown and cute as heck being small faceless cloaks holding artifacts, personally I love em!

games workshop know the right buzzwords to get hype building for a new edition. they pulled the same trick of "free rules" and simplified play already and in the end it turned into hundreds of bucks to stay current with the rules and completely insane bloat. basically, ill believe it when i see it, but i wont hold my breath

I like that they hired Charles Dance to play the lion.

Good news: new, streamlined rules Bad news: 58 pages of errata and clarifications 3 days after release

Bet your glad they finally made beastmen for 40K

Games workshop managed to arrive in 2015, how nice. still not gonna buy in though, there are so much better games out there that don't ask for a three digit sum to buy 20 minis

It's going to be my third "revolution" of GW rules. First one was 5 to 6e, second was 7 to 8e. Both times the edition started not bloated and turned into a bloated mess during its course. We're now in the bloated mess phase, going into the fresh edition. It WILL happen again. GW has no devs, just marketers.

I really like a lot of the changes they put forward. Still not paying their ridiculous prices but my 3d printer will definitely be brrrrrrr'ing quite a bit more.

Honestly, the main problem I got with Age of Sigmar and the Cities of Sigmar is that I've never been a fan of Sigmar to begin with, not even back during Warhammer Fantasy Battle. What drew me to the Empire at the time has always been the big pantheon and different cultures of the Empire, Middenland and Cult of Ulric variant army lists of 6th Edition were basically what I loved about the Empire. Wish WFB had more time to elaborate on the other Imperial Provinces such as Nordland and Cult of Manann, Talabecland and Cult of Taal etc. The Battle of Black Fire Pass was going to feature an Averland army list for example, FW/WF team even showcased Averland Command Regiment during FW Open Day of 2012 at AdeptiCon, which never came to be sadly due to the End Times.

All of the changes sound great, and I'm hopeful for 10th edition! But my level of skepticism for Games Workshop is near infinite. Completely agree that this could end up being a re-do of 8th edition, great in the beginning, before spiraling once more into darkness. Fingers crossed this doesn't happen!

I'm a major critic of GW, and have been since before you had a channel. This is genuinely a big win for players, the hobby (and I mean the actual hobby, not GW's notion of 40K being 'the hobby'), and hopefully even for GW themselves. Even if it goes downhill from here, as I fear it still might, the Combat Patrol boxes, in particular and free access to ruleset will be good for a long time.

Part of the reason for the price of the Steel Legion is that they are made-to-order Pewter from old molds. They've done similar limited releases before with similar price points. It's still...a lot.

About boarding patrols: one problem could be armies vary wildly in unit cost. As you highlighted, 500 pts of guard require a lot of models (unless you get tanks… but then those are costly anyway), things can be different with, say, Custodes

I started this hobby at the end of 8th, and I'm glad I focused on painting before actually try to learn the game (seriously, the rules made my 2 remaining brain cells fight sometimes). Now 10th was announced, my models are painted, and the rules are hopefully easier to digest. I only need a friend to play with.

Don’t they “streamline” and “simplify” every new version cycle? I hope I’m surprised by a great new two player starter box that passes the Christmas morning test with flying colors. (from box to table in hours, with a fun game in there)

I still have my 9th ed rulebook I never used for a single game, perks of getting in late I suppose

Free rules and indexes? I'm interested. A new smaller mode? I'm interested. It worth taking a look at everything once it drops. if they really modernize and go to alternating activations, I might be pretty happy and fully come back. Pre order video games and Kickstarter shenanigans over the years have made me wary of any hype trains. Once its out, hopefully it can stand on its own.

I still don't think that 10th Ed will be for me. Mainly because it still doesn't look like we are getting alternating activations. But if, in a future addition, they finally do that, I would happily pick up the occasional car pack. I've said it before, I would absolutely pay for a physical copy of the full grimdark future rulebook, even though I already own them digitally with my patreon subscription.

Based on the wording of GW, only the army index will be free at the start. They didnt say that the game rules will be free or that the codex will be free. Until GW decides they arent a book company, I doubt book creep will end. Ark of Omen is already a 5 book series GW expects everyone to buy to continue playing 40k. Also there were beastmen in the Blackstone Fortress boardgame

That's weird, "New Combat Patrol" sounds a lot like "just print specific minis." Must be her accent.

One of the theories floating around about the codices is that the index will be the base for each army but the codices will provide rules for detachments specific to that faction. It would be a smart idea, which makes me doubt it will actually happen

Those cities of signal models are looking perfect for making inquisitorial acolytes or retinue members whenever I make a new one.

Those little creatures in robes are called the watchers in the dark, they are a xeno's race that once lived on Caliban proper; often times they accompany dark angels of great importance and are incredibly potent entities able to kill space marines and even powerful demons such as the changelings.

Chaos Beastmen were a thing in Blackstone Fortress. You even got four plastic beastmen with chainswords and autopistols. And, for better or worse, they were mounted on 32mm bases. Foreshadowing?

Loved the Oscar Wilde joke 😂

So how long until GW drops the ball so badly it creates an event horizon?

2 days before they announced 10e edition i finally looked at One Page Rules knowing that 10e edition would most likely be a bust. Because when is GW ever going to change. And then i saw what they were trying to do and it looks so heavily inspired by OPR. Not going to lie, it's all looking great atm. I'm really hoping their indexes will be amazing. So Should they F it up later i can still play vanilla 10e edition or go OPR.

Does this mean we are getting combat patrol reworks for armies to balance them out? or are they just changing the points system?

GW explicitly says the codexes will replace the free rules. Not sure how Discourse ends up confusing the separate promise not to add complexity with the idea that the rules will always be free. Clearly GW is saying that the codexes will replace the free rules, but that those rules won’t be more complicated.

Videos like this one really show that your content is about love for the hobby... It really looks like GW is taking positive steps, and your positivity matches that of so many others who've been recently tired of GWs shiz.

I think the part you glossed over in parentheses, "(available in your codex, on cards, or digitally)" explains where they are going with the codices, at least in the short term. If you are on a budget or only want the datasheets, those will be free. But if there is an army you love and you want the lore and art as well as having the datasheets in one place you can just flip to, that's where the codex comes in. I think. I hope. Also, the jawas are "The Watchers In the Dark", one of the many mysterious Xenos that hang out in The Rock, the home of the Dark Angels. One of the few times they've shown up in the lore was to make The Changeling (the one who works for Tzeectch) shit his/her/their/its pants just by being there.

About the pricing for Combat patrol it's still high for a starter army set most games have them at $100 or lower even boltt action tthe game closest to 40k in make up. Which I hope the steel legion is that price because it's forge world resin coverted to plastic which any time GW diid that they ended up costing he same. But still I'm sure the largest "Miinitues games" can afford to put 2k points of spaces marines vs 2k points chaos marines ttheir most produced/cheapest mini in a box for $100 and under cut everyone.

One issue: GeeDubs stated Arks of Omen is actually compatible with 10th. So those books aren't going away. 😊

As someone who was introduced into wargaming through MCP and Legion I am absolutely taken aback that the rules weren’t always free for Warhammer. That’s just ridiculous.

I"m still upset with Games Workshop. It's getting too expensive, and the rules are too complex and hard to gasp. Specially for new players. I started playing Warhammer 40k in 4th edition. I decided to pass on 10th edition. I have a 3D printer and OPR, do I have to say more? Long live Grimm Dark Future, etc.

As someone who doesn't have the money to invest in the hobby itself, or a local group or place to play, I'm still equally excited that the lore is continuing forward, in spite of some rather concerning retcons in the past. I'm a little worried that they're eventually going to find reasons to bring back the top 10 loyalist and traitor primarchs for the Nostalgia Factor. I absolutely love the world-building involved in Warhammer fantasy and 40K so it's going to be interesting to see how it goes.

3:57 They usually sell the kill teams separately after a while. Usually around the time the next kill team comes out, so you may need to wait a month or two but trust me. You WILL get your beastmen in a separate box eventually.

I think you could be right about rescaled Tactical, Assault & Devastator Squads which are Primaris/First Born agnostic. Like the terminators. I can see them being sold as dual HH/40k kits. (I know the formations differ, but now the book series has reached Terra. The inevitable ‘scouring’ book series, may take care of that.)

Started in 1995 with 2nd edition 40k. Played until 1999 around when 3rd edition began which was an attempt to streamline 40k. Epic 40k was coincidentally a streamlined version of 40k which is ironic because it represent the same idea at a larger scale. Getting back into the hobby with Horus Heresy purely because I want to paint minis because I have had no interest in bloat games that take a half day to get through. The original 2nd edition 40k box set was $40 in 1995. 20 Space Marines, 20 Orks, and 40 gretchen. Sure, they were simple models, but it was a great time to enter the hobby. If I spent $120 at the hobby shop I'd have a pretty large army. Sure... inflation etc... but... these were also Pewter. I look at the modern version of the game. I see virtues. The minis are much cooler looking. The art... even better. The lore... more detailed. Still... I hope the new rules make it as fun to play as it was in the 90s.

I have been waiting for such a long time to finally sit back, relax and play along with some of these warriors of great that you have made

I think its more likely that the primaris keywork will go and it will just be bolters, flamer, missile launchers... etc and you can use either firstborn or primaris in the same squad.

First edition returns! Time to dust off my ancient Beastmen models. Looks like we're finally getting Warhammer Fantasy In Space! again. This is what a lot of us wanted all along.

What I took away from it is that the codices will mainly have additional subfaction rules - they spoke of Ultramarines First Company having a different two pages of subfaction rules and stratagems than the Ultramarines battle companies, i.e. it doesn't get more complex because you can't stack the rules on top of each other.

I have nothing against the codexes which I bought, they are beautifully made, interesting, have nice plot explanations, but I'm glad to see them go. I never even tried to play a single game, the rules were so bloated and confusing. I just enjoy reading up on the lore and painting minis!

Yeah that Imperial Guard regiment (Steel Legion) is an older line that still sells relatively well and the models are still metal so probably part of that steep price.

Speaking of new Skaven, Discourse, what is you take on the look of OPR Ratmen? Personally I love the look of them being more of a chivalrous order. Very Redwall or Mice Templar.

First D&D listened to its customers, and now GeeDubs listens? I’d imagine humble pie tastes a little like mincemeat…

I was planning on bringing unbuilt models with me this week, since I'm driving and not flying for work. Not building anything now until I see what the rules for 10th look like, especially since the "free wargear" model of late, where you can equip your models with all the best toys for the same points. I'll be building like a crazy person once the Black Templar dataslates for 10th drop though...

The news is exciting and I look forward to the new rules to see if it is actually fun.

I'm glad to hear someone else FINALLY discussing the 8th shapes elephant in the room because I said this too and all my friends said I was confused

i think the new codex will be mandatory as a oversized warzone / unit info , like the chapter approved books. that way they wont be obsolete as a warzone or campaign reenactment. other than that i'm looking forward to the new edition.

So the way that GW has phrased things, my take on the index/ codex thing will be that the index rules will be replaced when the codex rules are published. It might be in the Q&A that they clarify you will swap the "one page" of rules out when you play a different sub-faction. So my guess is that the Codexes will offer a different "one-page" of rules to entice our purchase of the book.

"GW's changed!" Aaaaand here's 37 figures and six weapons teams for $556.

Apparently they are going to continue to support boarding actions in 10th edition and the arks of omens books were written with 10th edition in mind. (Still think it is way over priced but it is apparently supported in 10th)

Feels a bit like the early days of AoS... Wouldn't be surprised to see them slowly go back to codices, an "advanced" rulebook with the "complete" rules, a general's handbook, some kind of endless spell book analogue, etc. I wish I could believe they'll be more like Wyrd and Privateer Press.

Although I agree those new CoS models might be good for Frosgrave... Frograve's model are still cheaper to get with box of 20 for same price as GW's 5-10 model box. Also - less details, which for bad painter as myself is big bonus

Thank you for acknowledging the need for a Skaven refresh. My gutter runners are still that derp ball trio in metal 😢

Wasn't pinning a thing in, like, 3rd or 4th edition?

The one thing I really hope they do is they have hobby tips in their codexes like AoS

Knowing GW, it's probably smart to go over their statements with a very fine brush. Take this: On the first day of the new edition, the rules for every datasheet in 40k will be free to download, or available to buy as convenient and portable card decks. This is specifically limited to the first day, they can have other units in Codexes/on cards/whatever later, or remove the download anytime after the first day. Especially when they say "Codexes will return in time to replace the free rules", it's quite obvious that the free download isn't meant as a permanent solution. This is not only reminiscent of 8th edition 40k, but also 6th edition Fantasy with its Ravening Hordes that infamously still included Chaos Dwarves, which never got their actual army book.

So i think the 1 page rules will stay with the codex. I suspect that what will happen is. Free rules will be - 6 stratagems - 3 warlord traits - 3 relics For a generic army, eg space marines, orks... etc. The codex will bring out alternative rules to use which will be a replacement eg. Chapter specific rules and new secondaries. I suspect they will he better thay the basic because GW are still snakes but better than before

Oh BTW, at the Adepticon reveal they said the Arks of Omens stuff will still be usable in 10th edition.

That Oscar Wilde joke was a 10/10!

Will say, the Combat Patrol mode, while a nice idea for new players...seems to be ONLY for new players (and even then maybe not). Reason I say this is how restrictive it is, the mode is purely what comes in your Combat Patrol box. This might be fun for a few games...but I'd imagine it'd get old real quick to use the same exact army every time. Whats worse is what if you don't like your army's CP box: "Hey Timmy wanna play Combat Patrol" "No, I play Thousand Sons so I got their Boarding Patrol box since it actually comes with Rubrics and not a bunch of Tzaangors". Personally i think a better idea would have been to have it similar to Killteam. You have the box ready right out the gate, but you have the freedom to change things up a bit from a limited pool of other options. So if you don't want a horde Tzaangors, you could swap those out with a couple Rubrics. Like I said, I think it's a neat idea...I just think it could be done a little better.

Those Steel Legion are perfect for a Death Korps army, because that's all Death Korps was in 3rd, repainted steel legion! I'm tempted to pick up the smaller bundle, then the Veteran Kreigsman kill team kit, a commissar, and a Leman Russ. Boom, Death Korps army

Exciting times!!! But seriously, do not knock Dwarfs until you try them! Especially in Blood Bowl, they ROCK! You do too Discourse! Thank you for all your efforts in putting this fantastic episode together 😊

Blackstone fortress wasn't enough Gors in Space for you? 😆

The one thing nobody seems to consider is whether they're going to offset the loss of book sales by making the (perpetually rescaled) minis even *more* expensive, which based on their recent attempt to sell 15 marines with nerf guns and a Dreadnaught for £120, is probably going to happen

Personally, I think that the packs of datacards are a very good idea - with the rules being available for free online, people who want only the data cards for the models they purchase will be well-served simply by printing those out from the digital materials. To me, the datacard decks are an army building tool - with the streamlined force building rules, you can pick up a pack of your faction data cards and then play around with force-building by physically arranging cards on a table as a tactile tool to get a feel for your army before you have to buy any models. I got into OPR because I wanted to play Warhammer but was blocked out by the enormous startup investment and complexity (codices). I'm really looking forward to this new edition and hopefully getting a chance to actually try the game out.

I enjoyed most of the reveals. I like Lion'el Jonson and plan to use him in Grimdark Future. I really liked the Cities of Sigmar models as it's the first time we see what regular humans look like in AoS as models instead of art.

--> 12:53 This is indeed _JUST LIKE_ 8th Edition (Don't Get Pre-Dragged In By The Hype.....not unlike the Sheep that GW think you are.....these rules will need a minimum of 1-2 years before we know if they are _*ACTUALLY EFFECTIVE or GOOD.....via Trial & Error, +Errata, +FAQ etc.)

I'll curiously watch that new edition from afar. I've been burnt by way too many "new edition hype" before thinking "this time the game will be balanced". Firefight is really scratching my futuristic wargame itch and I can't imagine GW making a ruleset as good as FF's. But who knows, maybe it's finally going to be a good edition?

*Big, heavy Aeldari sigh....*

They didnt say they were moving away from codexs, just starting with an index as far as I know.

"GW's changed, they're finally listening!" ....the same way that other domestc abusers have "changed" and are "really listening" and "gonna' make it all better" every time they realize their victims are finally going to leave and get a damn restraining order. Every few months. Before they go right back on their shit, and you end up with a black eye again. My trust and goodwill are nonexistent.

Remember when AOS was 4 pages of rules and free...

I've been enjoying Kill Team, fast fun and small armies makes collecting and painting so much easier, plus gives the flavor of the parent faction. Still playing Blackstone Fortress Warhammer Quest. Looking forward to 10th but with bated breath, Love that they finally brought The Lion in. That was something I was hoping was going to happen with the launch of 9th but never too late. I really hope they do a new Part-Works Magazine for 10th edition like they did with Conquest and Imperium for 8th/9th respectively.

Beastmen were in 40k in 1st and early 2nd. They're abhumans, you can take them in Imperial Army (which became Imperial Guard and Beastmen disappeared when the codex came out).

An interesting example for me are the books of a given nation, a formation from the game Flames of war. It contains everything typical in an army book, but there are tutorials on how to paint certain camo / uniforms, some specific lore vehicles from a given front area, etc. I think if GW really wanted to encourage people to buy codexes, they must finally start trying, uploading lore which practically does not change over the years and some statistics are not enough by today's standards. If he expands the books with some painting tutorials, examples of painting with important information for a hobbyist, something more than dry facts and figures. Because adding 2 pages of uniforms and some info on how to paint the Astartes helmet is not enough. It must be a book that has something you won't find elsewhere for that army. I hope I explained my thought clearly enough :)

I hope that when the codexes come out its similar to Kill team. There is a base line and a bespoke version

I've been through this 10 times. I know what I'm talking about.

I got my Toster Boy Combat control I supper excited to play the combat patrol mode, now I gotta to actual reason finish painting them

The basic rules are free, including basic army rules and datacards. The full rulebook and codexes will come out later. But free basic rules to get people started, is still good.

I thought they already made the announcement that the arks of omens books were going to be fully integrated into 10th edition, at least that’s what I remember from the twitch stream last week with the reveals.

1:08 Wait he's a Primark? I thought that was a store.

The free rules seem really good. The codices seem to only give alternate ways of playing your army. They'll probably release new models along with a codex and not release their datasheets for free. Those datasheets could come in the box but they're probably a simplified version without all the special rules like they are now. So the dedicated hobbyist playing new models might still need the codex or wahapedia, but at least you could play with the free rules throughout the edition... hopefully... without a massive disadvantage... probably not though

I agree with all your takes here, Discourse, as I usually do. GW *seems* to be making the right moves, apparently responding to valid criticism in ways that should make the game more accessible to new players. But given past experience, we have to look *very* closely at the things they are almost saying as well as the things they are pointedly *not* saying, in order to decide how much faith to put in the things they *are* saying. I am *very* skeptical that the rules will *stay* free, beyond the initial index period. They've told us that we will get codexes, and that those codexes will supercede the free rules. That sure sounds to me even though you *could* play the free rules indefinitely, if you want to play "real" Warhammer 40K, including competitively, you're eventually going to have to have access to rules that will be available only through codexes. Which really means we're back to Wahapedia as soon as the codexes start to drop. What GW doesn't realize is that this is an incredibly short-sighted and self-defeating business model. Codexes should be evergreen, and every codex should be marketed to every Warhammer fan, but if they are being sold mostly as faction-specific rulebooks, with a shelf-life of three months to three years, no one is going to buy them who doesn't own a full 2000+ points of that faction. Putting rules that are not available anywhere else inside $60 books just drives us to Wahapedia, and I don't pay for the codex even for my own army, or armies, and GW gets none of my dollars. If GW instead created a line of codexes that was truly evergreen--nothing in them but lore, short fiction, and hobby info (painted models, *lots* of paint schemes, and even useful hobby crafting tips that don't directly involve GW kits)--they'd have something that *everyone* would buy. If they designed them to look like a set of attractive, matching books on the shelf, like an encyclopedia or our Harry Potter books, they would get me to buy *all* of them, eventually, including factions where I have no interest in collecting the miniatures, just because the 40K universe is cool. When I've got a birthday or Christmas coming up, I can just wishlist a couple of codexes on Amazon, and boom, my family knows what I want for a gift--they get me something they know I want, and I don't have to wear an ugly sweater to show how much I loved it. And if I pick up two to four a year, over a few years I'll get all 20-whatever there are of them, at $60+inflation apiece. But again, under the current model, I get *none* of them, and GW gets zero book-buying dollars from me, instead of $120-$240 per year. I wish we could get them to see how many long-term dollar bills they are leaving on the table--in this way and a thousand more--in their desperation to steal more nickels from the pockets of their existing customers.

So the models being rescaled for 10th edition, does that mean GW will say you can't use any of the old models in official tourneys to force everyone to buy and paint all new models?

40K 11th edition will be one rule:rock paper scissors, Marines get a rethrow.

Going to date myself here. 2nd Edition had armor save mods, strategy cards, unique models were the focus, etc. Sound familiar? They removed the codexes and the main book had all the army sheets in it for 3rd Ed. Codexes were back before 4th edition came. This sounds like a return of the cycle. Also, that 1 page rules comment sort of shows why they are doing it. They see the writing on the wall if they don't make these rules accessible as the rules were generally not as important in sales as the models, which are getting more ridiculous in price as we breathe.

Hopefully the fallout from the Hasbro-pocalypse is not lost on Games Workshop......

The way I read the one in one out rules is that we'll get free rules to start with but rules will be erata'd and replaced with the new rule in the codex making the buying of a Codex mandatory for your army. I don't see rules being free forever😢

The new terminator models ARE Primaris Marines. You can tell by the Primaris belt buckle.

The little guys are the Dark Angels equivalent of chapter serfs. We know very little about them, but they are probably not human.

“It’s not 1930’s…” proceeds to do all videos in 1930 newsman accent. 😊

The annoucement is a "White Paper" or Marketing to sell the product. Its not the actual product and it remains to be seen if they deliver.