My store had a 100 foot wall of GW stuff with people always gathering in front to talk about the hobby. That space has been reduced to 30 feet with all the boxes turned sideways and no one standing around it talking. The endless 40k rules bloat has turned even our most die-hard players sour. Combine that with books that release obsolete and new models that come out broken to make them sell tells me they should shape up. I am a old Fantasy player and there is no way I will picking up the new old world system given the sheer amount of greed GW exhibits.

Oh boy. I can't wait for the $70 Imperial Guard codex that comes out 2 weeks before 10th edition scraps every book for 9th edition. Ratlings are going to be so OP for the first 21 hours after launch before the FAQ nerfs them at the same moment they're sold out online.

I can't tell you how many times I've been in a GW shop when some parent walks into the store for the first time with their kids all excited by all the models and the games only to watch the expression on their faces go from wonderment and anticipation to utter dejection as they realize how expensive is will be getting themselves and their kids into the hobby. Instead of launching themselves and their kids into a new family activity, their shoulders slump as they herd their kids out the door and suggest they go get ice cream.

If I were an investor I’d be concerned by them not listing any figures for Warhammer +. Why would they not go into the details for something so integral to their business strategy? I’ve never seen a streaming service purposely hide their numbers.

It could be a good thing for the miniature wargame hobby on a wholistic view. By chasing a ever shrinking demographic, it opens up a new spaces for other Miniatures companies to move in and pick up the cash that GW is leaving on the table. GW are like those dudes who spent a fortune to improve the logistics of ice transportation to compete with refrigerators . I think GW will price themselves out of relevancy. There are plenty of fantastic miniature games out there

GW going public was the worst thing to happen to the company. Eternal growth is not sustainable or possible.

Adding a comment to help this climb up the algorithm - something something DISCOURSE IS AWESOME something something.

Came back to the hobby from about 10 years of absence, the game currently is a dumpster fire and players are fanatic zealots that shit on you when you make legitimate questions, but thanks to this channel I found one page rules and I have been watching videos non stop, thank you, I almost missed on playing with my miniatures again and having fun.

GW game players: The cost of models is too high, GW's market strategy is untenable, WTF is up with this crazy release schedule. Also GW game players: Runs out and buys the latest FOTM army/release and then wonders why no one wants to play against their mortal spamming Tyranid list. If you don't want GW to do GW things, stop. Stop buying their models, stop making content about them, stop talking to your buddies about it, etc. There are plenty of other game systems that would love your dollars, your audience, and you watercooler chats.

It would be interesting to know what the turnover/burnout rate is like within GW's various design studios. I can't imagine it's a healthy environment given the ever increasing volume of stuff that's getting pumped out.

Yesterday, I had to redo the compliance training my employer requires us do every 6 months. I was working my way through the rules, and noticed that everything we're not allowed to do (abusing market position, making purchases contingent on other purchases, etc) all sounded REMARKABLY familiar.

Games Workshop practices, particularly the 40k rules, have pushed me into Star Wars Legion. Less minis on table, about 25-50% cheaper for a box of dudes, and they're putting out boxes at 150.00 USD MSRP that are going to have a full army and then some in a box. The balance is worlds better too.

Wizards of the coast have been doing the same with a fast paced amount of products released for Magic the Gathering. It helped them make a ton of $$$$ during the last 2 years. it has become very tiring for consumers.

At our local club two players play 40K, four players play One Page Rules using GW figures and 16 of us are now playing Deadzone from Mantic Games. Another problem for Games Workshop is on a Thursday night about twenty people would go to our local Games Workshop store, would talk GW, play GW, buy GW and build and paint GW. Now stores no longer offer that service people have just drifted away.

Something that would interesting too see, but will never see in a document like that is, how many of those "more miniatures sold this fiscal year than ever" are actually not in hand of player/hobbiest but collecting dust on a shelf of a Hobby/Gaming Store because they are priced well outside normal peoples budgets and GW won't let them lower the prices under the threat of being banned as a reseller.

I want to thank you for going one of several KZfaqrs who highlight companies like Wargames Atlantic and One Page Rules. Between them and 3D printing in general I've been able to rediscover my excitement a joy from miniature wargaming. My gaming group recently gave Grimdark Future a try and immediately fell in love with it. My friend who's been playing 40k since 3rd edition said he hasn't enjoyed a game as much as that in many years. I think 40k, with its lore and market share, has turned into a stepping stone in tabletop wargaming. Sort of like D&D. They're the widely known system a lot of people start with but I think a lot of people are then moving on from them. They still produce some of the best miniatures on the market, their lore is rich and fun, but their rules are bloated and terrible. I'm looking forward to adding non-GW armies to my collection.

Personally I loved the privateer press strategy of every 6months to a year they would give a big set of releases with every faction getting one or two new units, resculpts and bit of lore. This way all the players get something new and you don't get massive shifts in the meta.

Great insights. Well worth the wait. Props to you not letting any of this slip in the last livestream.

The amount of money they have made out of me in recent years has dropped massively. 10 years ago it was likely I could spend 100/150 month religiously on models an things I wanted. Now gw will get maybe a paint every few months. I'm financially able to comfortably spend far more but the products aren't something I want nor are the rules. The few models I do want ill get from recasts or 3d printers. Gw is so far from base with their pricing that I just won't support them last model I bought was a mechanicum lord just for bits to cut up. 😅

Every time I see you go off about business practices, market share and shareholder dividends it reminds me of that thumbnail a few weeks ago with you saying RAWR. Go get 'em champ.

Great discussion. I have a bit of nostalgia for Games Workshop. I remember when they mostly created small one-off games, imported DnD, Traveller and others, White Dwarf was independant and citadel miniatures were seperate. For me their highlight was around the mid-1980's to early 1990s. Warhammer came out, Talisman, Judge Dredd, Mordheim and dozens of others. Then Warhammer 40k came out and seemed amazing. Their products were a bit more expensive than others, but still affordable and easy entry. Remembering all of this, I would love to still like them, but I cannot. For me they lost their way years ago. Such a shame

I just saw the pragmatically patient bit, and my cynical mind instantly jumped to our good ol' friends at GW blaming any loss of profit from WH+ on the newly hired content creators and other streaming services like Netflix. We shall see

The amount of releases feels like too much, but also not enough at the same time. They release all kinds of things, but they're slow to release updated rules for existing armies and resculpts of old resin kits. They'd rather just pump out a bunch of random new stuff.

"Only fit to drive a sane man mad" - Discourse : - "I am no MAN!"

Great review of the annual report. Good analysis of what the future outlook probably is.

I think you're doing an great job. I got back into the hobby during lockdown, but the prices are out of control. So instead of buying a $300 Shield breaker box set. I'm getting an 3D Printer for slightly less. Thank you so much for staring me to an better path.

I've typically been most motivated to paint and play by playing in local small tournaments. We play 750 point tournaments monthly and 1500 point tournaments quarterly. Its designed to get people into the store and the smaller ones are designed to be mostly friendly to new players. I skipped the last one completely; I'm tired of rules creep. I'm tired of losing every time to the same 2 people who buy the newest army every time a codex comes out. I'm tired of playing my army near perfectly and still consistently losing just because the other army has better rules. I'm annoyed that I can play a game really well and accept that losing by less than 5 victory points is basically the best I can expect to do with my army, since it's codex is a bit out of date. God forbid I want to play my imperial guard stuff.

Good luck with the channel, I really hope it continues to grow👍I know I'll keep watching 🤘

I started with 2nd edition and stayed through the beginning of 6th, which is when GW started to go over the cliff IMO. Even adjusting for inflation, the cost of a basic squad has priced a lot of potential players out of the market, not to mention the impact of COVID shipping delays, user-unfriendly GW store environments and an absolutely hostile response to fans and content creators (based on the few videos I've watched about how the hobby has developed). Ironically, the price and time commitment pushed me into re-exploring board games which has consumed the majority of my hobby budget. One bad annual report (even two or three) doesn't destroy a company, but you're absolutely correct that the C-suite is pushing whatever they think will work to satisfy the desire for ROI- which is the fundamental problem with GW, or any business that fails to read the market and strike an appropriate balance between its consumer base needs and those of the shareholders. GW's CEO is only interested in short-term targets to meet his/her/their performance bonus thresholds- what the consumers actually want or value doesn't matter. I presume players want GW to be profitable because that translates into opportunities for the hobby people love, but the macroeconomic environment is very poor for a niche, luxury product when players are prioritizing filling their gas tanks or affording the weekly food bill now.

So much has changed, somehow nothing has changed… One of the reasons I left GW 12 years ago… Great video, keep it up ^^

This is vampires running the blood-bank.

an Aussie here, we are having supply issues, It takes months for any models we order to arrive

It's nipple the number of releases.... Fair shakes for free gooses....

This is why i switched to Infinity from Corvus Belli.

Being a gamer in Australia we are boxed in by import restrictions the exchange rate and years of price rises over and above the “normal” price rises

Congrats on going full time with the channel!

i havent gotten the chance to join the streams a lot. didnt know you've decided to go full speed on the channel. Best of luck and stay healthy !

I’m in the _Games Workshop is dying_ camp. But that may just be wishful thinking on my part.

games workshop has the ability to offer better quality for value by giving more models per box than the competition, as valve says if gw offers a better experience than 3d printing then they can beat them but right now they strangely don't care

Generals sound bite was a nice touch.

The report is both No cause for alarm and is no reason for change. To have increasing sales against a 5.5 percent loss of net margin is to have a solid business that has some room for efficiency gains, and no crisis in the market or the company.

Yeah, I would say you are spot on, however; GW has always had predatory consumerism as a business model. The prices have always been high, the customer service has always sucked, and they've continuously been shitty to their employees. Their initial office slogan was "Eat the Rich" right? Now they just have other sociopaths to hold them accountable to an unrealistic bottom line. The irony of the aforementioned slogan and their current masters isn't lost on me. It seems to me that GW has always preyed upon the children of the middle class, only since going public have the REAL capitalist Cossacks shown them what a feast can be. And now they are beholden to uphold their corporate daddies' rampant consumerism. The best thing for Warhammer is for people to stop playing Warhammer, and start finding better miniatures by better people with better rules.

"The future does not look good for us." You might say it looks grimdark. The future, that is.

Bring back affordable blister packs!

Thoughtful observations on the report.

Hercules and the doughnut joke really got me 🤣🤣🤣

It is my sincere hope that GW finally go too far with price gouging and predatory/reprehensible business practices in the face of a massive looming recession and they crash very hard, are unable to recover financially, and then they get bought up cheap by some other company that will better manage the games and the business of selling them, and manage to do it without treating the fanbase/customer base with barely disguised contempt like GW does. I love the WH40k universe and IP. I hate the corporation that owns those IP rights, as well as the despicable corporate culture that suffuses it.

Awesome stuff! Dusted off my old WHF models and started playing Rangers of the Shadow Deep with my son. 😋

Do we have any info on the development costs of their subscription service?

"...then they cackled evily, turned into a column of bats, and flew off into the night!"... Discourse, it is beyond my abilities to explain just how hard and for how long this made me laugh without any sort of control. You won the internet with that one.

I still remember the way I found you youtube channel: I was miserably scrolling r/Grimdank (don't know if there is another state of mind to scroll reddit) when I saw a post shitting on you so hard and I knew, I someone from that subreddit hates something so fervently, it has to be good. And here we are today.

It's not that I want GW to do badly. Still, this reminds me that I'm happy to see Mantic Games do better year over year, and their sci-fi and fantasy wargames expand. Kings of War in particular does seem to be gaining traction with filling the hole left by Warhammer Fantasy. Of course, it might help that Mantic kept themselves a private company. Without shareholders to beat them up, they have more leeway to keep their games affordable. And not rush to release new things for the sake of it.

Utopia does indeed feel smurf like. Australia has a huge mark up on the price.

16:06 c+c generals was incredible

The pricing on the box sets is what's getting me into 3d printing.

This may not be the expected place for my comment but since this is the most recent video I shall try to feed the algorythm by posting here anyway: Thank you very much for making me aware of OnePageRules. After having played Warhammer Fantasy Battles from 1998 until the late 2000s I left Wargaming behind (but kept my stuff, especially my discontinued Bretonia army). Last week I desperately needed a project for my eldest son's holidays between end of Kindergarten and his first school term so I set up two 750-Point Armies in OPR AoS Regiments. We have been playing daily for a week now, and soon we/he will start painting his first knight on a pegasus. Thank you very much for repeatedly mentioning OPR, the rules and playstyle really work for us even though I translate the rules and terms roughly into german as we go. I know there is a german translation available but this helps me in keeping consistency with the Army Forge Tool. EDIT: And it all came back to me when we accidently broke the pin of the end of the flybase because of course this was bound to happen ;-)

I came here for GW news and the hypnotizing purple background but what I found is the true meaning of life: being tyranid food. I now finally have a goal I can achieve, thanks Discourse! BTW your cutter has the best humour on the entire planet!!!

Could you do a video on other companies using existing IPs? Mantic using so many for example. Them using KS would make sense because they wouldn't sell normally

realy glad your channel is doing well keep the videos coming

Good luck going it alone. Never realised I was a whale until I started watching your Chanel, it was just a case of buying over my limit now and paying back later (which never happens). The realisation is quite overwhelming and I now feel quite resentful towards GW like you would an African prince who promised you £60 000 000 but just empties your bank account.

The most ironic thing about WM+ is that GW directly murdered the rapidly growing world of fan animation surrounding Warhammer, to push WM+. A community that was spreading awareness of Warhammer at a record pace. All for /free/. A real "how it started; how it's going" situation.

This is why i turned entirely to doing 3D printed armies. I'll buy/loan the books and paints but as far as models go it's not worth the price anymore where i can pay a nearly half-three times off for the same quantity and quality of models.

commenting for generating more engagement

Great video :) So Smurf is it a utopia for the Smurfs because one because there is only 1 lady smurf or is it a utopia for Smurfet because there is so many smurfs?

In other news warmachine and hordes is getting a 4th edition with new models said to be in production.

I think the future looks great, because now I have dozens of small creators I can support who make high quality minis and decent rule sets, and I can actually Convince people to play the game with me unlike 40k.

Interesting overview, and unsettling peek behind the GW curtain. For long term success they do need to adapt especially in the face of a golden age of wargaming, there's never been so much choice for game systems, genres, scales and terrain, although seeing a few smaller outfits disappearing. I do have a request though, could you maybe do an overview of the Batman Miniatures game from 1st to current ed, and what resources are avaliable for the various editions, such as character stats or do you only get those if buy the models?

I can only imagine the day the prices get so high they instead opt for human sacrifices as a preferred currency. The day GW transcends to become the Chaos God of bottomless greed and avarice.

ive given up trying to keep up. i was a die hard kroot fan but wont even be touching the new kill team. ive gone back to dropship commander, and getting into one page rules and looking forward to lunar arriving.

I had an interview with GW for a video game licensing role. I didn’t get it. But I basically opened my covering letter by saying ‘I want to put a space marine in Fortnite’. I wasn’t joking. GW are ultimately in the business of pushing plastic, just like lego and star wars. Fortnite is as big as plastic.

Wizard of the coast tried to do the same thing and the testing quality has not followed. They are not able to test their rules fast enough for the new release calendar and there was a lot of magic cards banned in the recent lyears. Therte is also a swiing from release to release where the players try to buy the better one and they don't have enough money to buy the other ones which probably make it more difficult to plan a print run because there is low and high

"...the Star Fleet crew" Duh, that's Doctor Who?

The phrase "sold more miniatures" is a weird sentence to me. If they launch a new game where each model was the size of a grain of sand, and sell boxes for £5 each of 10,000 'models', it would be more models than ever. but that wouldn't make it more profitable

If we all forgo a new box of minis this month and instead buy some GW stock, would we be able to collectively pressure them in better directions?

Fantastic as always! Thank you 😊 I miss the Smurfs!

"my desire to be that donut!" lol

Just adding all of the rules and model stats are free and available online for Para Bellum's Conquest games, both Last Argument of Kings and First Blood. 😜👍

The bottom line is that we, the wargame and miniature hobbyists, are in a position of having very little leverage in dealing with GW. They are the dominant player in our market, but we are not the dominant source of revenue to them. It's clear that they intend to keep squeezing existing hobbyists for more and more money, rather than growing by expanding their customer base, while they become more and more reliant on licensing for their profitability. Even the Black Library is a much better source of revenue for GW than games and miniatures, because the cost to produce a novel--even a physical novel--is far less than the cost to produce a game or miniature product. And digital novels, whether for e-reader or for audio, become more and more a part of their sales, their cost for those products continues to go down. For the forseeable future, the wargame hobby, or the Warhammer hobby as they like to mischaracterize it, will continue to be dependent upon GW, while GW strives to become *less* reliant on the hobby as its main and most profitable revenue source.

I’ve read the full report and for them to record growth on last year is remarkable. I expect a dip next year and everyone will be selling it as a crisis but it clearly won’t be.

Great video,but I disagree slightly about the China market. I have been living in China for 5 years now and the Warhammer hobby is huge over here. I am in various groups of WeChat (Whatsapp version of China) and 98% of the members only play GW games. Whenever I tell people about Carnevale, Deadzone, Firefight and other games,very few people seem interested. I have been to some of the Warhammer stores in Shanghai, Shenzhen and Hong Kong and they're pretty full. The Shenzhen one not as much because the store is pretty big. I have met a few people talking about infinity, but that was three years ago. There has to be people that play the game because they do sell the models, but it doesn't seem as big as the GW crowd. Of course,this is all anecdotal. I just wanted to share what I have seen over here over the years. Keep up the great work.

I love that you shouted out Wargames Atlantic. I am hoping that their Death Fields game really takes them to the next level whenever is launches. It still blows me away that you can get 48-60 minis from WGA for the just over the cost of ten Primaris. When it comes to China, the median income is about 5000 usd. If GW charge the same price increase they do when ever it ships out of the UK, then it would be the most unaffordable thing imaginable.

Discourse. I'm a big fan. I've watched all your stuff and it's probably because of this that I feel the need to write this. I couldn't find any other way of contacting you. I'm one of those non tech savvy people that grew up in the 80s that everyone loves in stranger things but in real life in the present day they find us creepy. Anyhow, the background music in your videos does my head in:( it feels like I'm trapped in an elevator with someone who is so nervous about being trapped in an elevator with me (probably on account of me eating the other people trapped in the elevator (I'm imagining this taking place over a long period of time)) that all they do is talk about GW in the hope that I forget my growing hunger. As I say I'm a big fan, if I was trapped in a lift with you, you would probably be the last person I ate but the I sometimes find myself focussing on the backing music loop and it's cheeky little synth sound really start earworming into my soul. As I say no criticism, just some feedback.

Not sure about the influence the Smurfs have. Only one of them working in a mine and one in the fields. All of them walking around in shoes, giving the irish ideas above their station regarding fancy footwear...

❤️ I was waiting for this video.

At this point I only buy models if they’re “reasonable” from GW and then print the rest like tau I bought a combat patrol and printed the rest and then tyranids I bought a combat patrol and start collected and some stuff all from 3rd part and 3D printed the rest honestly want to print out more eternal dynasty cause they’re like super cool models big over watch energy kinda

This was a good video! My only question is, is there a study/source saying that the actual number of gamers is falling? Or is this just speculation based on public discourse (ehehehe)

Thanks for the breakdown. Shame that there is no pressure for GW to change their ways yet. I will be so sad if I have to watch the old world game die as a possibility for me to play before I even buy a single product.

It’s absolutely true on the licensing end of Warhammer. This year I bought a couple of the new Eldar releases and besides that I’ve really stopped buying any additional miniatures. However, the Joytoy figures that have been releasing lately have taken all of my money instead. I’ve tried to get friends into the hobby only for them to look at the miniature prices and run. But figures like Joytoy or McFarlane? Those reach a wider audience and attract people that normally wouldn’t look twice at Warhammer products. And thats not even mentioning Dark Tide or Space Marine 2 that are coming out ‘relatively’ soon. And that’s just a couple examples. Expanding the IP into areas other than the currently ludicrously priced war game side can do nothing but help them. However my only concern is if it will eclipse the tabletop aspect and cause unfortunate consequences as a result. Who knows. For me personally I’m just glad there are finally figures I can pose and put on my shelf. Especially the dreadnaughts, love the big stompy boys

Nice video!

Really enjoying your content. Glad you're shining a light on GWs shitty business practices. I'd like to see more content on where to look for new war gaming options. Like, how can we direct people who are being disenfranchised by GW to other games and companies that actually support their player base?

I wonder if the Tyranids will get a new model this decade

Smurf living instantly translated to living like an Ultramarine.. I was very confused.

I've been screwed by the release of boxes in past year that had minis of two factions I play. LOL 😭

Anyone just wanna revive 5th edition 40k? I feel that despite the Matt Ward shenanigans, the game was funner. I sometimes long to go back to those days of carry 1 codex 1 rule book and have fun and beer with friends

you likely saw the manufacturing cost of HH in this quarter without seeing the sales.

Is that the trapdoor thunderclap?

Discourse dissecting reports and GW like no one else on KZfaq, thanks for that! Also, GW says it is a niche product, but Warhammer video games are selling in the millions (Dawn of War, Total Warhammer). That they fail to translate these players into hobbyists is the true failure of GW and testiment of their arrogance.

Thanks for doing this. Love you.

0:00 - 0:20 Very much appreciated. Thank you for your sacrifice ;)

As long we continue to buy their product, they will continue to use the same tactics… because it works.