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I can honestly agree that there is plenty of "history" left to revision - I've even heard people say that history is "a living, breathing thing, which changes according to what we know about it." An example of this, a personal favorite, is that Trevethick's first locomotive wasn't a single flue return boiler. Instead, some schematics recently uncovered have suggested that the locomotive had to return flues that converged from the first - which could have some merit, as double return flue design was just about as popular as the mono tube return flue at the time.

Thompson Pacific availability was head and shoulders over everything else. Meteoric cobos weren’t as bad as they are reckoned to be. Some steam engines were loved when they arrived where the same class was despised by other crews on different regions or different sheds Us enthusiasts love to show off, repeating a solitary piece of information to appear knowledgeable and perpetuating myths. Where the truth is actually far more nuanced and complex. Excellent vid Chris. Thanks.

Let's not forget that Brunel, after having a propeller carefully designed and tested through years of trial and error fitted to Great Britain, decided at the last minute to substitute a new, untested one, of his own design (of course) for its maiden voyage - one which turned out to be inefficient and had blades break off during the voyage.

Happy to see you getting a sponsorship!

as a history major and substitue teacher, I am SO glad you talked about this

As a future historian, it's one of the most important things we get taught, and we are conscious of it. History is a living, breathing being; we are getting more aware of where we are coming from, and that ideas which have slipped into the collective memory were made at some point to justify a certain purpose (for example; the building of a national identity). These are being revised and revised, giving often some quite shocking and interesting results. It's what makes the subject so thrilling. Historians do not always agree with each other, but the discussion makes our perception of the past shift every day.

Very true. I don't always get things right but I always fess up and admit when I'm wrong.

The worst is when someone has easily debunk-able information and yet constantly passes it off as gospel to the point those not versed in the subject believe them and you spend far to much engery quashing the myth then you should have to. The example I hate the most when it comes to trains is Franklin Roosevelt and Grand Central Terminal. There simple baggage car, parked on a siding deep in the complex’s underground rail yard. It was actually formerly New York Central stock, having worked on the specialized “Wrecker” trains, with specially designed cranes for the tight confines of Grand Central. When the cranes were retired to museums, the baggage car was shoved into a corner and left there. Problem was that corner was next to an elevator that comes up at street level in the side of the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel. It’s a known fact that back in the first half of the 20th century, occasionally, big time VIPs would have their private cars moved to that siding and be taken up to the hotel directly. In the fact the railroad has done something like this within the last few decades. It parked an escape train on that track for president Geroge W. Bush when he staying at the Waldorf. FDR is know to have used the track at least once. A particular Metro-North Railroad (the commuter railroad that now owns the railroad) spokesman named Dan… he decided that the baggage car must have come from FDR’s train. He made up a whole host of stories about the car. How the celistory roof was for machine gun holes. How the car was used to carry FDR’s Pierce Arrow (despite not being big enough), he even tried to tell people Metro-North didn’t own the car. She carries one of Metro-North’s maintenance of way reporting marks that ends in an X. He told at least one TV show that “reporting marks that end in X means the car is owned by the military” Eventually, the car was removed and given to a museum on Connecticut, and all the nonsense died down, but if you find one of the news reports or documentary shows he did… there’s his bs for more people to see.

I heard Simon Martin discuss Thompson on the Railway Mania podcast, and since then I've had a reality check and a change of opinion on the man.

This sort of thing is coming out a lot in the WWII academic community as well. For an example, Field Marshal Rommel, who was treated for years as Germany's best field commander of the war and "The Good German" for his relatively clean reputation and "honorable" conduct, has recently come under increased scrutiny, particularly his actual command abilities, as well as specifics such as the depth of his actual participation in the 1944 attempt on Hitler's life.

8:39 as a ocean liner enthusiast I thank you for helping bringing some of these things to light. the materials the ship was made of is said to have been the finest for their time. sure it is horrible in our time, but they didn't have many of the modern practices we have today

Really interesting about Edward Thompson as, having first read about him in the book "British Pacific Locomotives", Cecil J Allen gave him and his Pacifics a terrible roasting. Thanks for the illumination!

Very interesting the point about the Clauds being rebuilt in Stratford & hence prolonged their life. They are personally one of my favourite classes of locos so (although none were preserved) I'm glad Thompsons work made sure we had plenty of examples to capture before they were finally withdrawn. Very good video none the less & totally agree about how it's important to not be blinded by our own bias

It’s always a good day when Chris puts out a new GTI.

That was a very good film, Chris, and not just for the railway content. Well thought out, and very well presented. Loved the old railway films too.

Another aspect is people's reluctance to say "I/we don't know" or "we can't know". Quite often there are gaps in our knowledge, which we cannot currently fill or we may never be able to fill as evidence has become lost to history. Many people see not knowing a certain thing as a failing on themself. However, the ability to openly admit ignorance is a testament to the knowledge we actually have!

Another thought provoking not to mention interesting feature, Chris. From what I've heard/seen in the railway press for instance. It was found whilst both engines were in the works, that Albert Hall was in worse condition than Root Aston Hall. Leading to a swap being made between the two........ Likewise linking into your remarks about the Titanic, there's an urban legend of sorts to the effect, that was almost more people that "missed the boat" than there was empty berths...... Similarly with regards to Flying Scotsman. Every train driver in the land has driven the engine. Case of oh! yes Great Uncle Cedric drove her, and where was he a driver? The Snowdon Mountain Railway. What's more he took her on two return trips up the Mountain!

Damn, i wasnt expecting a Philosophy lesson from this video lol surprisingly good. Always get the noggin joggin

CEG, love the sponsorship, hope it works out. There was a scenario here in NSW where a 2ft gauge Krauss was preserved static as ARCHIE, one of Four locos used to transport materials for Burrinjuck Dam. But when ARCHIE was disassembled for restoration, it was discovered that the stamped numbers largely lined up instead for JACK instead of ARCHIE.

Bravo, sir. Signed by an active railroader and railroad historian.

Still no word from Jim van der Kolk here

Excellent, Chris. Many good points well made. Particularly liked the Monty Python quotes. More of this quality of critical analysis on GTI, please! Keep up the good work. 😁

Well said Chris... exactly what I was thinking. Next time the disciples of St Nigel of Doncaster attack me for daring to question some of Gresleys designs (the P1;s anybody?), or trying to give Thompson a reasoned evaluation, I'll just point them at this video.

I love your GTI videos because of their wider reflective perspective but that you try really hard not to alienate anyone. Keep going!

So this is sort of how Dr. Beeching has been re-svaluated in recent years, due to people realizing how at the time the decisions Beeching made were probably what saved BR at the time. Also as a fan of the legend of Casey Jones, that last bit was hilarious, given how many rail historians over here in the states like to say Casey was a bad engineer, despite the fact that, yes, Casey was pretty damn skilled. (Don't get me wrong, Casey broke rules all the damn time. But usually at the behest of the rail companies because Americans at turn of the century weren't fans of Health and Safety.

Glad to see you do a editorial on Thompson and his Pacifics. Hopefully now, people can start to recognize the truth that he wasn’t as bad a man and engineer as history’s made him out to be. Same as with J. Bruce Ismay of Titanic fame, or heck even Dr. Beeching! It would be most interesting to see you look into Beeching, and see if he really was that bad of a person, and if he really did what he could to keep BR going. Recent info I came across said he actually gave railway preservation his blessing, saved Fenchurch for the Bluebell Railway by keeping her in storage till they could muster the funds to buy her, and even opened the Dart Valley Railway!

My views on Thompson have changed.

An interesting and thoughtful disquisition. The arguments apply in many contexts beyond railways.

I find that John clease clip very interesting cause it sort of sums up the majority of groups on the internet, the scientific community (while having a lot of mechanisms to evade misinformation) still has issues like these so you get conspiracy theorists wanting to break the mould and fit the puzzle differently but if they get to popular then they become another one of those internalised groups. It’s a really nice quote and sums up the internal politics of most groups in genral

Lovely video as always, keep up the good work.

Well done on the Add.

Another great piece, only comment would add is, though Yes Brunel was a workaholic and would spend lots of time away from home. There is notes from people at the time including his wifes diary that often as soon as he got home he was an unusual man of the time, in spending hours playing with his children....one time notably doing a magic trick accidentally causing him to sollow a gold sovereign. Am quite sure he wasnt always there when needed and by todays standard wouldnt be seen as a "good dad". Oh other point to mention. Yes his atmospheric tube was a failure, but mainly because of the technology of the time. Rats eating the whale bludder covered leather caused the air leak thus destroying any chance of creating a vacum. I remember reading an article a few years ago of how Brunel university created a model of his atmospheric railway and it worked fantastically. But that would be if made today....

Brunel was a man who saw conquering America as his ultimate achievement; his Great Western main line was, as the 1963 documentary 'Giants of Steam' pointed out, only the first step to Brunel towards the ultimate destination of New York, hence why he also invested in three advanced wrought-iron steam-ships, carrying passengers across the Atlantic from Liverpool under a subsidiary of the Great Western. The very name 'Great Western' was pretty much Brunel's point of saying Britain has an enterprise with American stakes in mind. It is why he desired to have his engineering feats be the best anyone had ever seen; he was a master engineer but he saw himself as a showman. Him putting his worker and family concerns casually aside reflected this. I brought this up in Anthony Dawson's video on his KZfaq channel discussing interpretation of the history of LMR 57 'Lion' (go check it out by the way; it's great), that I believe that when the Mersey Docks & Harbour Board knew the engine was a relic of the old Liverpool & Manchester Railway when they obtained it. The name would very likely have been lost in favour of just a number after the locomotive came into the stock of the London & North Western Railway prior-hand, though it would have been the same engine as rebuilt in the early 1840s. It was only after interest in the engine's conservation arose by the 1920s that the revelation of it being named 'Lion' would have been discovered. Regards, Samuel Farris.

Happy to see you again by this time

Now I feel Thompson.

awesome video Chris

Very insightful and interesting … ….

Hope you get more sponsors !Its interesting to see how our view of past events change as our own views change .But what I don’t like is thinking all bad past events are caused by one group eg,post-revisionist.

Class to see you're getting sponsors on these videos. Hope these help out with SLIPs work! Also lovely video. The subtle jab at Sans Pareil's cylinder myth is particularly humorous

Just after watching this video..... (To all enthusiast) Edward Thompson is NOT a villain to the LNER. Even though he had to "rebuild" A1 pacific "Great Northern", a few LNER V2 Class and 6 LNER P2 Class wasn't out of pure spite, it was World War II requirements prevented Thompson to "build his own original locomotive classes" as Thompson was allowed to build 10 of his original classes. Even Thompson himself wanted to make his own locomotives for the LNER not as a "way of disliking Gresley's design. Thompson may have "changed" A1 pacific "Great Northern", a few LNER V2 Class and 6 LNER P2 Class into A2/1, A2/2 and A2/3 pacific locomotives was again WWII restrictions hence why Thompson had to rebuild some of Gresley's designs....... .......and yet many railway enthusiast still consider Edward Thompson as a person who shouldn't rebuild A1 pacific "Great Northern", a few LNER V2 Class and 6 LNER P2 Class into A2/1, A2/2 and A2/3 pacific locomotives. In my opinion, Edward Thompson is in no way a villain, he can build "original" locomotive classes but WWII stopped him and had no choice but to rebuild some of Gresley's locomotive classes.

Excellent stuff Chris, but I'll only be really happy when you get a white cat and "sharks with frickin laser beams"!😄🙂

No one has commented about the LSWR dining cars… and their Titanic link. It's most unlikely that both would have been on the same train or that those particular vehicles would have been used on that specific train. However the fact that they could have been has become the saviour of two carriages which deserve a better future. The Titanic guys have big ambitions and if they can raise the huge sum of money they hope and need for the project, then I can only applaud their approach, since it taps into new sources of funding outside the traditional railway community. LSWR carriages have not fared well in preservation but that might be about to change. We now have two restored and running on different lines, and two on display at York. The proposed Ironclad train being put together 25 or so years back came to nothing but we now have the Swanage collecting Victorian bodies for a train to go with the T3, and the Titanic guys whose ambition extends to a complete LSWR train of their specific period.

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Chris, you've gone off track, beautifully.

Imagine showing this to a Karen

A couple of people in a game I play said a lot of rubbish about Thompson, maybe they deserve to see this.

Hey Chris are you still doing the American steam locos in profile

Do we get an episode about the Taw Valley situation?

The best way to found out if a book is reliable or not: check the bibliography. A book is only as good as its bibliography. If, as with Thompson, the authors go back to primary sources - and quote them liberally - and critique existing sources then that is likely to be well researched and to be reliable. If a book has no bibliography, or simply cites existing usually secondary or tertiary sources - or even websites - best ignore it. See if the book or paper has been peer-reviewed: if it's in a legit journal then the chances are high it has been. It may also sound snobbish but also check the academic credentials of the writer, too. :-) I'm surprised you didn't mention the wibble over "lion" :P

My personal irritation is Maunsell fans love to overplay how 'bad' and 'inadequate' the locomotive situation at the SE&CR was when he took over. Sure Maunsell's designs were good, especially the N and the E1 rebuilds but Wainwright left a sturdy group of locos most of which lasted well into the 50s and even early 60s.

"This is your leader speaking, here is an important announcement". "I has been put about by back stabbing revisionary paper hyenas, that the Goodies Post Office is closing down". "This... IS A LIE!!!" Goodie Goodie Yum Yum

How about you could make a GTI about the steam engine speed record debate?

🙂👍

Humans will always be dodgy

You could pose a couple of what ifs - what if the grouping had not occured (or in the way it did), what if WW2 had not happened - would the demand on locomotives be different , enabling space and time for more engineering comparisons, with more resources good aspects of Gresley's designs might have been incorporated into new designs , rather than a compromise back to a quick and dirty good enough and easy to maintain for what we need the locomotives to do, (and general wartime restrictions on new -build anything - resulting in some interesting heavy overhauls for more than just LNER locomotives in places around the UK, and post war capital expenditure controls in the BTC, again leading to fake emphasis on maintenance budgets

very good video! it's weird how angry people get about revelations of things that have always been true but simply weren't known, or even seem confused about the concept and thinking it's a change rather than a revelation. especially interesting wit example of what John Cleese said given he's extremely stuck in the mud these days and doesn't understand this concept

Last year on a FB page I been moaning about the fact the 'Brighton Atlantic Group' had gone for an SECR 'E' rather then a LB&SC 'K'. Something which admittedly I'm still angry about but nothing I can do about it. But someone responding to me moaning said 'but the Ks were terrible engines', going on detail the valve gear was inaccessible and other rather random points. That fly's in the face of what I read by historians about the Ks. who described the Ks as good locomotives ("the best the LB&SCR built). I don't think its an official line from the 'Brighton Atlantic Group' who have said the E is easier to build (I guess that's right), but it does feel some are now trying rewrite the history on the Ks in some ways in attempt to justify their decisions.

It’s a shame Great Northern got butchered, because that was the reason given for its rejection for preservation into the National Collection. I saw an interview with a guy from Haymarket Shed, who said they sent all the Thompson Pacific’s back to Doncaster because they were so crap. Haymarket preferred Gresley engines, but they famously refused to clean A4’s because they said it was ‘dangerous’. That’s Health and Safety gone mad!

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