Confronting Karl Jobst - WATA, Fraud, and Sealed Game Collecting

Рет қаралды 71,387

Күн бұрын

Karl Jobst joins the channel to discuss his video, titled, Exposing FRAUD and DECEPTION in The Retro Video Game Market. Please remain respectful in the comments. All talking points are listed below:
Link to Karl's Channel: / karljobst
0:00 Introductions
1:39 Surprised By Reaction?
3:19 What Did Your First Notice?
7:05 Anything Against Sealed/Graded Collecting?
12:23 What is Actually Fraud/Illegal?
27:25 Speculative Bubbles
29:35 No Actual Collectors?
35:16 The Dentist and Speculation?
42:02 Personal Responsibility?
47:18 Expectations For Changes With WATA?
54:02 Will People Still Use WATA?
57:47 Collector's Universe Owns WATA + Goldin Auctions
59:55 What is The Perfect Resolution?
1:02:40 Potential Over-Grading?
1:11:03 How Big is This Now? Manipulation?
1:15:45 It's Not About Collecting
1:25:42 A Bias Video?
1:28:28 Moving Forward In a Positive Way
1:31:17 Demanding Better From WATA/HA?
1:35:48 What Can WATA Do To Gain Your Trust?
1:46:23 WATA's Response Was Poor
1:48:26 Heritage's Response
1:49:58 Will We Hear From The Players Involved?
1:54:03 A Second Video!?
1:56:08 Karl's Own Collecting!?
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Video game collecting and investing KZfaq with emphasis on vintage video games. Grading VGA and WATA retro collector. Gaming with consideration on rarest games ever or most expensive games. Talking about N64, NES, Super Nintendo, DS, 3DS, Sega Mario and More!

Пікірлер: 825

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

Like shopping on eBay? Click this link before you make a purchase to directly support the channel! : ebay.us/S0DWtC

@silversobe 2 жыл бұрын

Karl explaining the law and artificial inflation of graded games. He's not arguing against collecting them but the blatant price rigging. He is actually the greatest ally to graded games for both investors and collectors preserving true market prices.

@phgkeets12 2 жыл бұрын

That's what I took from his video he doesn't have a problem with collecting or even grading he just doesn't want people getting ripped off

@ratfacekick 2 жыл бұрын

preserving is an interesting word. More like eviscerating, and rightly so

@annep2693 2 жыл бұрын

I was surprised that Greg seemed to be missing this point. I understand that a genuine collector wants their market to be legitimate, but Greg should be more able to understand how the owners/investors of a grading company who grade and sell their own "collections" (through an auction house that they also have ownership/investments in) can easily manipulate the market for their own gain.

@spencer1980 2 жыл бұрын

Free markets are great, but manipulated markets are not free

@loopygordo 2 жыл бұрын

Its surprising how anyone could attack Karl for this. He just exposed a bunch of rich assholes using a niche market to swing their proverbial dicks around.

@dannywright1317 2 жыл бұрын

Karl is an absolute legend and has been for a LONG time.

@criznittle968 2 жыл бұрын

i knew his documentary was going to explode, absolute legendary stunner

@MJKeenan30 2 жыл бұрын

Agreed. If he ever decides to do "real" journalism, he will inevitably win a Pulitzer.

@felixbeaulieu852 2 жыл бұрын

From what i heard, he was born an absolute legend

@TheMerfolkAdult 2 жыл бұрын

Speedrunning legend, content creation legend, now journalism legend. This man has no limits

@mjcook3922 2 жыл бұрын

Glad to see Karl is taking the time to answer questions openly in an interview. That tells me he's pretty confident in his content surrounding the wata allegations. Honestly though......the graded Mario 64 was immediately fishy to pretty much anyone in the gaming community

@TheMikeyb86 2 жыл бұрын

And in terms of the game itself, is it fishy beyond the price and the actual quality of the box and seal? Edit: clarity

@MtrCtyKid 2 жыл бұрын

Karl....is an absolute legend

@adamkatt 2 жыл бұрын

@@MtrCtyKid i like his vids but i cringe every time i start his vids...

@unboxingretro1375 2 жыл бұрын

@@mjcook3922 not sure if you have seen the prices of those cards and player worn memorabilia lately.... if you understood cards you would understand a psa 10 52 mantle is 20 plus million when a psa 9 is 4-5 million. The 9.0’s you mentioned are closer to psa 4 in that realm. 9.0 isn’t good...

@ZuppaD.Cipolle 2 жыл бұрын

@@unboxingretro1375 yeah but if the values you take as a reference are based on a specific auction house, with suspicious ties with a specific grading company, and all those values are from games sold at that auction house graded by that specific company, and in some cases they are bought by the auction house owner or associates of his, it sounds like market manipulation

@exturkconner 2 жыл бұрын

Grading services are a big scam now. The idea that you pay based on what your items value will be makes no sense at all. It's no harder to grade a 10.0 rare perfect game than it is to grade a 5.0 common game. Grading service should be based only on the time, the skill, and the materials involved in slabbing the submission. When you start factoring in value you already have a major problem. And that major problem is that it's in the grading companies best interest to give better grades that increase items value so they get paid more. That is inherently flawed and I'm not sure when that started. When Beckett started grading service they didn't run it by value. They gradded the cards as it should be. They only had one flat grading system. Memorabilia, autograph,vintage, normal cards were all handled the same way. Then you started getting different scales for vintage, and all of a sudden there were different scales for everything. And there was a normal service, and an economy sevice. And don't even get me started on PSA. Who famously graded a ton of bogus autographs that a fairly well known forger did. And he pointed them out and PSA stood by it despite the guy who did the fake autographs saying he did them and they were fake. All of these companies have questionable business practices and none of them are doing things up and up. It's BS and no one should be supporting it.

@philreed3983 2 жыл бұрын

"confronting karl jobst" proceeds to have perfectly amicable conversation

@grindelston5968 2 жыл бұрын

That's because it's clickbaity

@Schooner316 2 жыл бұрын

Confrontation does not have to be conflictual. In fact, it really shouldn't be. You can confront someone on their view without being at all conflictual with them. I appreciate the humor of your post and am not trying to take away from that. It is a funny observation. :-)

@danielgow6688 2 жыл бұрын

Probably encourages the conmen in question to watch.

@stylechyld 2 жыл бұрын

Confronting means dealing with the issues head on doesnt mean you are going to start fighting right away, hes trying to let karl speaks his mind so that he knows what to say next. It's called listening, which most people dont do in a conversation.

@Mecal00 2 жыл бұрын

12:56 Karl: "this is gonna be dry..." Greg: *takes sip of water

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

Ahaha nice

@patrickedmonson6846 2 жыл бұрын

It's actually Gin.

@undamned 2 жыл бұрын

Haha, caught that, too.

@MattPieti 2 жыл бұрын

Minds largely work symbolically. That may not have been a coincidence.

@YujiNakaSonic 2 жыл бұрын

It still makes me giggle the way Karl's accent makes pawn stars sound

@dpc4548 2 жыл бұрын

Yea, I can't figure out where it's from. I know he lives in Queensland, so I hear that influence, but I thought he was from America. Apparently not.

@danielhamilton3496 2 жыл бұрын

Pawn and Porn are pronounced exactly the same in Australian English. At least I say then the same. I think it's because Americans really pronounce hard Rs at the end of words where as we drop them off. You say computeR we kind of say computa. Not quite but that's the best way I can explain it.

@dpc4548 2 жыл бұрын

@@danielhamilton3496 yea, but karl puts an "r" in "pawn" and has the strong rhotic "r" in everything else. That's why I can't pick where his accent is from. It's very rhotic, but everything else has been influenced by australia. Not bad, I just want to pinpoint it.

@MisterSchmiddty 2 жыл бұрын

I'm Australian and yeah, you basically have to take the context for if it's 'pawn' or the other one A few years ago I was talking to a workmate of mine and she said 'I was watching Hardcore Pawn the other night with the family' Took me a second...

@danielhamilton3496 2 жыл бұрын

@@dpc4548 yeah that's fair enough. Not all Aussy accents are the same and Karl's is definitely less broad than the average. If I had to guess I would say he's definitely from a bigger city not the country. Maybe Brisbane or Sydney. Somewhere on the east coast.

@Odinoian 2 жыл бұрын

Great interview, Dylan. Karl basically hit every nail. He's not active in the market and is unbiased. He himself doesn't care about anything other than informing about his findings regarding WATA/HA.

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely, and I think it's good that it was cleared up given how much animosity was swirling around

@Odinoian 2 жыл бұрын

@@GetTheGreg I really hope you and/or Karl can get a hold of WATA/HA for an interview as well. Not email statements, but someone representing them, and possibly also who's essential to this controversy

@rfmerrill 2 жыл бұрын

It's worth pointing out that non-involvement can be a source of bias in some circumstances. Not necessarily this one.

@Odinoian 2 жыл бұрын

@@rfmerrill Sure. I just assume those who read the comments also have watched the video.

@narikaba439 2 жыл бұрын

@@Odinoian Not anytime soon. They're too busy consulting their lawyers.

@LOOG93 2 жыл бұрын

I could listen to Karl talk for hours and hours and hours and hours. He should do more long-form content.

@jsmith108 2 жыл бұрын

I believe he has a podcast

@gazzabethyname 2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I wish the recent video was feature length. Sounds like he had more he could have added.

@LOOG93 2 жыл бұрын

@@jsmith108 thanks for the info!

@inthefade 2 жыл бұрын

He's starting a podcast with TomatoAnus afaik. It should be good!

@coobk 2 жыл бұрын

the podcast is no more sonce TA cut ties after someome tried to cancel KJ with fake allegations

@MPBushman 2 жыл бұрын

As the owner of an ethical mom n pop retro game shop for over a decade and an enthusiast/collector since the seventies, the only way I would understand why someone doesn't consider Karl a hero is if they're in on the scam or upset that they got taken.

@AdrianDX 2 жыл бұрын

Or they own impressive items or collections that would benefit from the false value spike.

@brady9592 2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, there's clearly a body of people feeding into the speculation and who are deeply enough in it that they think "I'm one of the few who this is great for" and I think that Greg cautiously sees himself as such. It's very very very frustrating to see speculation in retro games at all, in any form, let alone in such a fraudulent manner. Without it, prices would reflect the interest of those who value the games themselves and not the interest of those capitalizing on that value. A capitalization that improves the world for no one but yourself, and at the same time takes opportunity for enjoyment from others.

@moonbeamz8207 2 жыл бұрын

Wata is a grading company not an appraisal company. They shouldn't be commenting on value they should be solely commenting on authenticity and quality.

@punishedbarca761 2 жыл бұрын

That was the big red flag for me

@bend1119 2 жыл бұрын

They cant even get the authenticity right and have graded odious fake games before

@Allaiya. 2 жыл бұрын

Exactly what I was thinking.

@DenkyManner 2 жыл бұрын

That's only true if they were a legit grading company and not just a wing of a price rigging organisation.

@aleksomega 2 жыл бұрын

That is correct. Well said.

@TheForeverRanger 2 жыл бұрын

Karl went from one of the greatest, if not the greatest Perfect Dark speedrunner to an investigative journalist.

@s-gaming8210 2 жыл бұрын

Not just Perfect Dark, he is also an absolute beast in Goldeneye

@TheDarthranc0r 2 жыл бұрын

100% agreed. Already better than the journalists that wrote the original stories.

@TheTyscion 2 жыл бұрын

He lives up to being an absolute legend.

@jfinley01 2 жыл бұрын

What makes this so interesting (even to the individuals who do not collect games) is that this scenario can be applied to any collectibles market. A lot of people are collectors - comics, coins, toys, cards - it’s crazy how easily markets can be manipulated. As a non-game collector, but a collector in general, this entire story is compelling and I look forward to seeing how it develops.

@jfinley01 2 жыл бұрын

@Mike Hunt yup. I like some of the influencers out there but packs for over $100 dollars? And if I’m the card maker why wouldn’t I keep a couple good ones for me when these cards are going for millions

@gazzabethyname 2 жыл бұрын

Even in fragrance collecting. Random lol. Blows my mind.

@b1nary_f1nary 2 жыл бұрын

Pokemon Card collecting got massive on youtube recently with everyone talking about these monumental sales and I've just realised all they were doing was inflating the market

@RileySkye100 2 жыл бұрын

You’re absolutely right. I like to collect very old books, preferably pre 1950s, and I’m noticing how some are up charging the value on some books even if it’s completely trashed.

@RionAgrias 2 жыл бұрын

@Mike Hunt People will buy nowhere near mint rare cards for ridiculous prices (even ungraded at times). I unloaded some of my rarer cards for a total of over a couple thousand because I needed to clear space for a move to a new place. These cards will just be resold at a higher value in a couple of days by those buyers, but they buy anything as long as they are in reasonable shape.

@arcerey 2 жыл бұрын

To me, even though the main things being talked about are interesting and important, people are missing on the bigger picture. Karl's video is en eye opener to things that this kind of businesses do that the public isn't aware of. Beyond games, it shines a light on shady practices that people with many other interests could be impacted by. It's healthy to make more people aware and curious.

@anewhopedawn6676 2 жыл бұрын

so true

@duncanluciak5516 2 жыл бұрын

This cyclical forcing happens with stocks and commodities too.

@HIPERGroudon 2 жыл бұрын

"If I want to know the quality of a box, I can use my eyes"

@sanda386 2 жыл бұрын

Karl's video is the best thing that has happened/could've happened to game collecting, collectors and anyone with a love of videogames.

@rethardotv5874 2 жыл бұрын

Definitely, made me aware of price and market manipulation.

@johnhess9443 2 жыл бұрын

I'm super proud and impressed by this Karl fellow. Great work he's done, big balls he's shown.

@retrorick 2 жыл бұрын

thanks for getting this convo together!

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for checking it out, man! All thanks to Karl for being the first to reach out!

@BoondockGore 2 жыл бұрын

Reddit is blowing up with this story too... so glad

@MrOldskoolgamez 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Rick!

@latergator9622 2 жыл бұрын

Before I even watch this I just wanted to say Karl has always been the most open and transparent youtuber on speedrunning topics, and his interest in fair competition seems to be one of his biggest driving forces. Which is really something everyone can get behind. The only people who can’t are more interested in cheating. With the whole dream situation Karl seemed to do the most research out of anyone on KZfaq and the most work to really piece together the timeline. It’s quite remarkable to me that he was able to convince me dream cheated but did so unknowingly, honestly without DarkViperAU’s interview first I may not have agreed with that however. All of his legal dealings with Billy he was extremely transparent on, he had motivation to speak about of course cause Billy was ridiculous but he also had motivation to be quiet I’m sure. Love his deep dives into everything and it always seems like he tries to get the biggest picture along with the most important details. He also is quick to correct himself if someone points out a mistake.

@RoryStarr 2 жыл бұрын

Man, the internet is a weird life. I don't speedrun. One day Karl shows up in my feed and now I'm like "Holy crap, a dam 51 is possible!" Now Karl does a video on game collecting, something I never cared much about, and suddenly I'm nodding along for 2 hours going, "We need those damn population reports."

@PatrickThomasBrady 2 жыл бұрын

Yes, I had a similar experience having a mild interest in both but after first watching a video by Karl about speed runs and now how crazy this game grading scheme is, I need to know more

@handrewmillan4293 2 жыл бұрын

haha same, i dont own any graded games but im waving my video game lives matter sign in the name of justice

@unboxingretro1375 2 жыл бұрын

Lol that sums it all up. People enraged about Wata this week. Last week it was “What’s a Wata”?

@lucalyons-sosa9843 2 жыл бұрын

Great comment lol. Karl could convince me of anything, so I suppose its fortunate that hes a man of integrity lol cuz I would join a new regime with him if he so much as posts a vid called something like "billy Mitchell and I are going to war... Literally". Actually one of the best Investigative journalists that exists in the world today lol.

@thunderm00se88 2 жыл бұрын

Haha great comment! Have the same thing with the speedrunning. Didn't really care or knew a lot about it, a few Karl videos later I consider it an art form.

@shinmegamitalks 2 жыл бұрын

FANTASTIC DISCUSSION. Great of you to put this together, so viewers can get a little more insight.

@masonlitowsky 2 жыл бұрын

Cheers from Canada as well! Just want to say that I completely agree with Karl and let your love of the games inspire you. I personally own 2 copies of Conker's Bad Fur Day (1 to play and another to stay in the box) and I'll never sell either of them because I love their value and the fun that game provided for my friends and myself as a kid. The boxed one is probably worth a lot, but it will stay with me until I die.

@machinainc5812 2 жыл бұрын

Awesome interview. Karl seems like a really decent bloke.

@HoudiniFontmeister 2 жыл бұрын

A legend even

@esotericVideos 2 жыл бұрын

30:10 I love that Karl pronounces "Hyperbole" as "Hyper-bowl"

@pukkavidz 2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, it's actually pronounced "Hyperbole"

@s-gaming8210 2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely hilarious

@mr.pockets8523 2 жыл бұрын

Super bowl's cooler stronger better looking brother.

@zooms7889 2 жыл бұрын

i used to pronounce it that way myself XD

@uranium54321 2 жыл бұрын

Ngl it’s weird that the real pronunciation is “hyper-bully”

@superlink235 2 жыл бұрын

I was going into this with the idea that I was gonna hate Greg hahahaha. This was actually a pleasant conversation, I appreciate the differences in opinion, but the agreement on cold hard facts. In 2021 it scares me to see so many people simply deny truths and plausibility. Good stuff man.

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

Crisis averted ahah

@superlink235 2 жыл бұрын

@@GetTheGreg hahaha yes indeed, cool vid man. You gained a sub, hope I enjoy the rest of your content!

@chrisd6287 2 жыл бұрын

Me too, with “Confronting” in the title I definitely expected an attack but was pleasantly surprised. 👍

@Jackie_Fhan 2 жыл бұрын

He did a terrible job as he was basically bowing down and walking on egg shells the entire time. He didnt say his true feelings and this whole thing was one sided

@chrisd6287 2 жыл бұрын

@@Jackie_Fhan really? I don’t know him outside of this video so perhaps you have a different insight?? And what’s your opinion on the matter?

@thunderm00se88 2 жыл бұрын

Both legends in my eyes! Thanks Karl for that video and Greg for hosting this really well!

@slo77vak 2 жыл бұрын

why would a reminder to remain respectful from the interviewer be required? I hope everyone who takes the time to watch this content on a spec channel also actually watches Karl's video.

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

Because people are passionate about this topic and many don't even discuss it, they just come to insult either side of the debate. Thus far, it's been overall pretty civil outside of some👍

@HoudiniFontmeister 2 жыл бұрын

Because Greg is really invested in the value of his collection. And his (Karl’s) base is not gonna like it too much. But this was a respectful and good video. So I think most people could care less. it’s not like we’re gonna be subbing to Greg anytime soon 😂

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

@@HoudiniFontmeister please sub to Greg. Soon. Thanks😎

@AndyX 2 жыл бұрын

the reason wata is so behind on grading is because they now have a dozen sealed mario games to grade and they dont want to diminish the value of the one that made the news....they dug a big hole they cant dig out of

@Cheatscape 2 жыл бұрын

“Didn’t you hear? They found a whole warehouse full of them. They’re worthless!”

@user-kg2lz9zy4f 2 жыл бұрын

@@Cheatscape any link for the video or website ?

@owen3953 2 жыл бұрын

@@user-kg2lz9zy4f It's a quote from spongebob

@clrodrick 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the interview Greg. Good listen, like you I am a collector for a long time but I always try and keep my eyes wide open. I think quite a few things do need to change with the game grading environment, and I look forward to that day when it comes. In the meanwhile I remain patient. I hope Karl is right about PC big box collecting as that has always been my focus compared with console ha ha ha. Got over 2000 PC games from the 1985 -2010 era

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for checking it out man!

@Somniostatic 2 жыл бұрын

This was a great interview. Very structured, very clear chapters, etc. Good job.

@occultprophecies 2 жыл бұрын

Consumer fraud is commonly defined as deceptive business practices that cause consumers to suffer financial or other losses. The victims believe they are participating in a legal and valid business transaction when they are actually being defrauded. Fraud against consumers is often related to false promises or inaccurate claims made to consumers, as well as practices that directly cheat consumers out of their money. So, (1) have video game consumers in the graded video game business suffered financial or other losses? (2) have these consumers been given false promises or have inaccurate claims been made to these consumers? (3) have these consumers been cheated out of their money?

@Kcom93 2 жыл бұрын

Excellent discussion! Great video, loving the interviews 👏🏻

@miranda1068 2 жыл бұрын

Can't believe you got to interview him!

@super_junk 2 жыл бұрын

Good stuff! I can tell a lot of time went into thinking about which questions to ask and how to thoughtfully ask them. Gonna have to rewatch a few times to see see how I ultimately feel. Also, kudos to Karl! Super cool of him to give 2 hours of his time.

@morenokv 2 жыл бұрын

Whoa man this is huge! Sweet will catch the video after work 👍

@DuffyOnYouTube 2 жыл бұрын

This is an AMAZING listen. Fantastic video and Karl, thanks for coming on man!

@capt_howdy 2 жыл бұрын

Great interview, always wanted to hear Karl in a more casual conversation. Subbed!

@chiefchimp2789 2 жыл бұрын

Karl is right on game grades. Do these "experts" go to game grading college? It's an opinion of theirs and I don't have any interest in that. I bet a class action lawsuit will arise from this exposé. WATA charged additional fees on a games perceived value, but that value was due to their manipulation with the market prices. They're in trouble.

@danhalo1405 2 жыл бұрын

One of the main issues i personally have with the whole grading of sealed video games is that the main emphasis of the grading relies primarily on the condition of a 5 cent ordinary standardised plastic seal that has zero artistic value and is not even part of the game and not part of the trademark of the company (developer) that made the art/game, that is really some major bullshit and on the other side the condition of the actual game in the sealed box has zero influence on the grading. In other words you might buy a sealed old game for a million dollar that maybe does not even work anymore or never even worked to begin it is completely possible that you buy a faulty copy for millions with how those companies grade if this is not some major bullshit in this market i don't know. Those grading companies could easily require to break the seal of games for their grading process inspect all of the important things inside and actually primarily rate the important parts of a video game for their grading and just reseal the games afterwards there are a lot of great reseal tools available nowadys and those 5 cent plastic foils are for sure not the thing that carries the value in a video game especially when those grading companies anyways always put those games in their own boxes

@bkirk0510 2 жыл бұрын

Pretty sure I've replied to your wild and unproven theories elsewhere... but please, keep sharing to the masses. I may never comprehend why you'd ever think someone cares if the game inside is functional when buying a sealed, graded copy....

@danhalo1405 2 жыл бұрын

@@bkirk0510 maybe because a functioning game is the only actual really important thing about a video game?

@Tradengames 2 жыл бұрын

Right now its because people say and believe that's what important and where the "Investment value" is in sealed. Right now a sealed 8 will sell for tons more than a 9 CIB where as the CIB is nicer in all aspects inside and out. True facts that sealed is much rarer than opened CIB so rarity drives price in my comparison more than condition. With that being said there is 2 sides to prices in the games market unlike comic books where comparing Suprman #1 condition is only factor in price unless there is outside force from pedigree. As for working or not it does not matter cause in future none will work anyways most likely -Jason Trade-N-Games

@bkirk0510 2 жыл бұрын

@@danhalo1405 Yes - if you plan to actually play it. You aren't playing a sealed/graded game. You aren't a sealed/graded collector and that is fine. It doesn't seem like you'll ever understand the thought process of those who do collect sealed/graded games, and that's also fine. I'm just trying to let you know that those type of people do not care if the game inside is functional. They care about authenticity and condition. That's it. It's only "bullshit" in your own mind. Suggesting to open a sealed copy to make sure the game works and re-seal it is just asinine and destroys the whole purpose/value/allure.

@danhalo1405 2 жыл бұрын

@@bkirk0510 but someone wants to play the game eventually even if you keep it for like hundred years for your great grandchildren at some point someone wants to open the game and play it otherwise there is zero reason to collect those games to begin with. If the only reason to collect sealed games is to look at the boxart and at the 5 cent plasic seal than why not buying the boxart and a plastic seal individually it would be definitely a hell of a lot cheaper?

@Minilopo18 2 жыл бұрын

Surely going on Pawn Stars as a grading expert he could have spoken about the history of the games release, the condition of the physical object and the rarity of the game. None of those things need to include talking about the price

@patch002 2 жыл бұрын

I would be curious to know if this would open new doors of investigation into other segments where the valuation by these companies is basic, such as the collection of sports cards. Thanks for the work guys

@one1blue 2 жыл бұрын

Let’s go! I can’t wait to watch this.

@laxlyfters8695 2 жыл бұрын

I am not a game collector, but I love data science and this rabbit hole is amazing. Grading companies should definitely provide a report on how many of a particular collectible has been graded in order to know the circulating supply. Also tracking down the buyers and seeing any conflict of interest in important for any market. Cheers to both and thank you for introducing me to this awesome world.

@rich213sal 2 жыл бұрын

An Absolute Legend!! Karl Jobst!!

@Chinesemythdragon6 2 жыл бұрын

Hey Greg, I came across your channel from a rec while I was watching Reserved Investments, you're making top quality content. It's very cool how you encourage discussion and reply to all questions; and much respect for not Patreon ebegging or using sponsors. It's a breath of fresh air honestly, at least for me. Today I rewatched one of your vids where you were discussing your first Yugioh purchase. You mentioned that the specific card you bought had over 70,000 graded entries in the pop reports, it really made me wonder: what percentage are legit entries, and what percentage are people cracking out their cards or crossing over hoping for a better grade? If we look at the same thing in graded video games (when the companies finally release pop reports), how many can we expect to be legit there? I think it's a really important topic & no one talks about it. All the resubmitting that happens is corrupting the pop reports, making it hard to properly evaluate the market. Maybe I'm overstating the impact of it though? Thanks a lot

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

Hey man! I appreciate the kind sentiment! I think 70,000 has to be a typo or mis-hear haha. I just checked the pop count right now on Thousand Dragon 1st Ed. - 203 total graded, 79 in PSA 10. And it's one of those things that's super hard to quantify. With cards, the highest overrepresentation will be with PSA 9s as people crack and hope for the 10, but I'm not sure if it's fair to say 10% overrepresentation or 20%. But yea, this is definitely something you have to think about when evaluating a pop report.

@Chinesemythdragon6 2 жыл бұрын

@@GetTheGreg Lol, I just checked and you were saying that there were 71 Thousand Dragon PSA 10's. Since I was groggy and only listening, I interpreted it as 71,000, whoops. Anyway, yeah your figure sounds about right, all we can do is guess. So do you think it's a similar figure, like 10%-20% generally for graded video games? It's helpful that you mention PSA 9's are the most often resubmitted since people are trying for a 10. Maybe it's a similar thing with graded video games, like WATA 9.6/9.4's or imperfect seal ratings often trying for a better grade. Especially considering their poor reputation at rating seals, it'd be smart to keep resubmitting high-value games until they give you the A+ or A++. WATA seriously needs to overhaul their seal rating system, I don't really even take it seriously at all.

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

@Hans Dusseldorf I don't think it has been as prevalent in video games as cards, yet? But yea, we will probably see it in the 9.4/9.6 range the most. Also quite possible 8.5 will be a common candidate to bump to 9.0. A comic book guy would actually probably have a better gauge than me in this case since the scale is the same haha. Also, DAMN, 8 new PSA 10 Thousand Dragons since I made that video😅

@Fractal_blip 2 жыл бұрын

What an absolute legend!! Thanks for interviewing him man. Great job

@questjelinek 2 жыл бұрын

The greatest cinematic crossover ever!

@cutlass1234 2 жыл бұрын

The wata "backlog" reminds me of a gem scam in wow. Some guy would have people cod gems to him. Cash on delivery meant that when he opened his mail and took the gems out, gold would get sent automatically to the seller. Instead of accepting the gem would just leave them in his mailbox for 30 days at which point they automatically got sent back. He did this to artificially reduce supply.The gems would sit in his mailbox and the seller couldn't get them back until they were sent back automatically 30 days later

@alex12104 2 жыл бұрын

Not the case here. They don’t have that many workers at WATA and every game takes time to case. I can easily see why there is delays. You should see it too

@maxg6321 2 жыл бұрын

Man, the opening was brutal. Keep at it though , good stuff overall.

@Stampede215 2 жыл бұрын

Great Conversation!! Look forward to his follow up. Great content as always brotha!!

@snapdag 2 жыл бұрын

i dont know why any collector would be up in arms about karl's video. it was extremely well researched and has concrete facts and examples of these companies breaking the law. the market is most certainly in a bubble/being manipulated and WATA/heritage are shady as fuuuuck. if i had a 6 figure+ collection right now thanks to all of this i would definitely consider selling it before the market comes crashing down. just rebuy it on the cheap when the inevitable collapse happens lol. all the passion in the world for retro videogame collecting ain't gonna mean shit when you're the one left holding the bag.

@dougbratton7309 2 жыл бұрын

Great interview. Tons of respect for Karl Jobst and his thoughtful perspective and focus on business ethics. My two cents is thst Heritage Auctions' statement on population reports,, while positive, is meant to shift the narrative towards grading data transparency and away from their own lack of transparency regarding conflicts of interest and market manipulation. They need to do a lot more than call for a population report. Full disclosure on whenever partners bid or buy, and clear disclosure when a related party is selling are both minimal standards that need to be met.

@ying-yangtheory433 2 жыл бұрын

No fricken way!!! This is going to be an awesome video!! (Commenting before watching)

@beerkegaard 2 жыл бұрын

Greg doing his best to protect his bag. Hey I don’t blame ya. Greg’s pretty reasonable considering how much he has in these games

@_PatrickO 2 жыл бұрын

No one with a brain could have ever thought these prices were real. Even non-collectors knew for a fact something was wrong when a mario 64 went for a price that makes no sense. If greg didn't notice that, run away from his videos.

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

Haha most people were saying the exact same thing when Mario sold for 100K. Now it's 3 years later and people are having the same reactions. Now of course, 1.5M for a Mario 64 is pretty extreme. BUT, we actually have 2 comparable copies at auction ending in 2 weeks or so. They will both very likely exceed 500K easily - will be interesting to see exactly where they top out!

@_PatrickO 2 жыл бұрын

@@GetTheGreg Come on. The prices are fake. They are shill buying their own stuff to boost the perceived value and likely not even exchanging any money at all between the wata employees and heritage for the "auctions". Anyone following any collecting knows there was no valid reason behind the rising prices. Karl just did the work to fully explain the details behind what was obviously being observed. The community interested in spending money on this stuff isn't buying it, shills are. This is coin collecting all over again. People want it to be true and want to make money so bad, they are lying to themselves about the value of this stuff and openly citing a fraudulent grading company and auction house as proof. That is not proof of anything but a crime. Cite a non heritage auction establishing a six or seven figure value to mario bros for the nes if you want to cite something that could be real.

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

@@_PatrickO Mario 64 9.8 A++ is sitting on Goldin Auctions right now at 300K+. It will UNDOUBTEDLY exceed 500k, who knows where it will cap at. If it sells for less than 1.5M I'm sure everyone will call it a "crash", despite everyone also saying it should have never sold for 1.5M to begin with. And I'm here for it haha. Comic connect has also sold many 6 figure games at this point. Karl talked about heritage and what's going on, but they aren't the only auction house in this space haha.

@_PatrickO 2 жыл бұрын

@@GetTheGreg Wata gradings mean absolutely nothing and you can easily get sealed for cheaper. They purposely targeted sealed games with a decent enough supply that other people would pay for grading and auctions. That auction is even citing the fake 1.5 million "recent auction price". The whole point of the scheme was to con other speculators into buying games for silly prices. If you want to gamble that a speculator will buy your games, go or it. Just do not try to convince people any of this is legit. Its all marketing to scare speculators with FOMO. You might as well buy the VGA rated one right next to it with the same number of bids and ending for a mere $4.5k, have it regraded by wata and flip it for $300k! You can do it until the speculators move onto the next FOMO scam. The last man holding it will be left with a game worth a few hundred at most.

@nevercold808 2 жыл бұрын

Terrific vid! Excellent back and forth. The cherry on top to Karl's original vid.

@theartofresell 2 жыл бұрын

Good shit Greg! Your coming up with so much great content! It’s gotta be a blessing that your doing what you love at a time like this. 🤙🏽 take advantage of the moment bro! ✊🏽

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

Really appreciate it man! Couldn't be happier to have the opportunity to do stuff like this.

@slimthumbtak 2 жыл бұрын

Super Mario Bros was never a 'holy grail' until Deniz Kahn-artist and wata kahned people into thinking it is. Edit added after watching the full video: Great interview. Enjoyed Karl's perspective. Agree with him a lot.

@eunhwastevens 2 жыл бұрын

The pop report on all mario games will be huge. Are they valuable 🤔? Yes they are. But at today's prices? Big HELL NO and it's not even close

@bkirk0510 2 жыл бұрын

You’ll be surprised with how few early print SMB exist

@eunhwastevens 2 жыл бұрын

@@bkirk0510 keep telling yourself that. Especially when said mario game came out in Japan first so test market of what? Japan's game? Haha

@bkirk0510 2 жыл бұрын

Wtf are you on about? Test market? As in the first US release? Pop reports on sealed early print will 100% feed you crow.

@eunhwastevens 2 жыл бұрын

@@jimmyjam1710 = racist and keyboard loser

@aaronf4201 2 жыл бұрын

I’m grateful for Karl as through his video I found Greg. Really interesting and I love the thorough coverage!

@zacharyglatt4753 2 жыл бұрын

I liked most of Karl’s proposed solutions, like having a third party audit the transactions, releasing pop reports, and treating conflicts like insider trading. I wouldn’t like to legally restrict WATA from saying they think game values will go up in general or anything. That’s normal business PR. Every business should be allowed to talk up their service if they’re not making false statements. Every company trying to sell you gold advertises that gold is “expected to go up!!”

@Aurora12488 2 жыл бұрын

They're not just talking up their service, though. WATA is supposed to be judging purely the *physical quality* of the good put in front of them. It shouldn't matter if it's the first SMB mint-in-box or a beat up everyday copy of Breath of the Wild. There's a huge conflict of interest when they get involved with incentives beyond that.

@stegoeggo 2 жыл бұрын

Thx for having him on. Badass video man

@mrprism82 2 жыл бұрын

Like that you kept your own opinion and also helped each other understand different aspects. Collectors need you. Stay Objective and stay Creative 💪😎

@misterkite 2 жыл бұрын

Graded games makes no sense to me. You know what we call a game that can't be played? Broken. There's no practical difference between a pristine sealed game, and a game scratched to the point of being unplayable.

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

At least the sealed game *might* be functional. You have to give it that!

@Rowlandi11 2 жыл бұрын

This is a really thoughtful, respectful interview from both sides. Great questions, great answers. Super enjoyable and informative. I wish discourse like this was the norm and not a rarity.

@matthuskinson 2 жыл бұрын

Great interview mate. Your channel is fantastic. Keep up the good work 🤛

@Faber0k 2 жыл бұрын

I'm kinda new to your channel Greg, a few months, but I hope you start getting a lot more eyes on your channel after talking with karl. You do great work!

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

Appreciate it man!

@petersvideofile 2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely great discussion! Regarding the WATA backlog, I hadn't thought about it, but I think Karl is right to think something fishy may be going on here (of course evidence would be needed). My only experience with this kind of slowdown/backlog was dictatorial/poor management who wanted to maintain control and not share/delegate the responsibility of decision making. I'm assuming it isn't a technological issue in this case, and I"m sure there are a host of other possible reasons. If it is a management issue the reason for why they might not feel comfortable to entrust newly trained staff to grade games could be numerous reasons, lack of well defined processes, fear of lack of consistency, superiority complex, pride, but perhaps albeit unlikely it might undermine potential backhand agreements in place with current graders for consigned games. I realize there is no evidence to support this though, I just thought I'de mention it as a possibility though.

@antisclassic 2 жыл бұрын

Okay mr conspiracist lol

@petersvideofile 2 жыл бұрын

@@antisclassic I don't know how but I'de never heard the term conspiracist before, I normally only hear the term conspiracy theorist. ;) Regardless, hopefully it's simply a matter of them being unable to scale their system due to the extreme growth of the graded game industry or other worries rather than needing to preserve some verbal backhand agreement. It would be really easy to rule this out by just seeing how many people WATA hired to grade games and how many games they graded and how games are assigned to different graders.

@tr1bes 2 жыл бұрын

@@petersvideofile I think it's going to be tough for any companies to bring out population report. Given how many are in their baglogs. This include VGA as well. Mario 64 were sold over 20 million units. It's not rare but getting sealed would be hard to find.

@antisclassic 2 жыл бұрын

@@petersvideofile lmao you must be dumb , try google out bud. "a person who supports a conspiracy theory". You're a clown.

@garystinten9339 2 жыл бұрын

If collectors want to be big.. just buy two copies.. one for play and one for collection.

@bobblesandballcards 2 жыл бұрын

Good video by both of you. I’ve been following this and other markets because this type of stuff isn’t gaming specific, this market manipulation and scamming happens across all collectible markets and needs to be shared more. The greed takes over and people put blindfolds on because the collectors get overtaken by the “investors”.

@mattspowergarrison 2 жыл бұрын

This channel is about to blow up!!

@tempooooo 2 жыл бұрын

for real though haha good shit greg

@aleksomega 2 жыл бұрын

As a lover of Economics and in particular Behavioral Economics this is the topic that most concerns me and that lately I have come to understand better. I agree with you that the scarcer materials that are more fragile and delicate will be the most rare over time (N64 etc.) I have only recently gotten into collecting the video games that I love. Had I not picked up Econ I would not be able to enjoy collecting and feel confident doing it. I am far from an expert but I am glad that you have great content that helps newbies onboard to the hobby.

@franzbinett9416 2 жыл бұрын

Hey Karl heres a speculation for you. Youre gonna win an award for your video👍 Also so great of you to do this 2 hours! interview while you are still recovering from being sick. Also lot of respect to Greg for doing this so respectfully. (although i bet you mostly saw the opportunity for more subscribers having Karl on, no shame in that:) Great work of you both.

@JohnnyEvilsVids 2 жыл бұрын

WOW dude! Damn nice work on the interview.

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

Really appreciate you checking it out!

@JohnnyEvilsVids 2 жыл бұрын

@@GetTheGreg are you his first interview since the wata video? If so, I'd have to think your channel is going to get some serious exposure.

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

@@JohnnyEvilsVids I don't know definitively on that, but if not first, it has to be second or so haha.

@attention_shopping 2 жыл бұрын

awesome karl is so open and doing this talk/clarifications =)

@richardcastro-parker3704 2 жыл бұрын

Sealed games are mainly for trading for profit. With art even if it's for profit and trading you can still see the art. With sealed games you can only see and enjoy the box or what the item stands for or the feeling it brings you.

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

The box is, in itself, absolutely art. I would much rather place a game inside of a frame and hang it than some random painting. Maybe that's just me haha😅

@thefreshvince879 2 жыл бұрын

@@GetTheGreg it would be considered "real" art, if it were an original by the original artist. Not a copy of a box.

@alanhersch4617 2 жыл бұрын

@@thefreshvince879 I always hate this argument. Andy Warhol did prints. Are those not "real" art? Posters are real art either? It is a really stupid rule.

@alanhersch4617 2 жыл бұрын

I should add, I do think the original should be worth more of course! But wether or not a print counts? Of course it counts.

@thefreshvince879 2 жыл бұрын

@@alanhersch4617 if it were just the box being sold it would be a different story my friend

@justsayin4632 2 жыл бұрын

1:08:21 “foremost experts” and “learning curve” are hard to both assign to one entity (WATA). As Karl said, then why wouldn’t Heritage use VGA with a 10+ year head start? Until WATA gets the “learning curve” out of the way?

@unboxingretro1375 2 жыл бұрын

U didn’t know? Wata Hype > Fomo > Vga aparently.

@moderman512 6 ай бұрын

The documentaries he makes are fascinating. And I had similar questions about that pawn stars show.. I couldn't believe the money people are spending on games they'll never play

@nighticeeee 2 жыл бұрын

Can you really say the video has a large impact if not much is changing? Might have saved some inexperienced people from joining the hobby investing the wrong way, but most major collectors and speculators aren't letting up or seeming to care with the market reflecting

@samysnes 2 жыл бұрын

Karl said in a community post that there is a follow up coming and that the FTC is investigating the situation. If the FTC is investigating, things might change.

@attention_shopping 2 жыл бұрын

ya it seems not much has changed but perhaps it takes a while for behavior to propagate, especially if the government ever thinks it's serious enough to get involved. the video itself will continue to grow and be seen over the next years. edit: now I'm at 49:00 and they're talking about impact

@Dire_Hit 2 жыл бұрын

It's only been like a week. But while I doubt this will effect the market to horribly much, it may eliminate the investment incentive to pay premiums for games under the assumption that they'll appreciate in value exponentially. But it will take time to see what might happen. What I'd be more concerned about is the longevity of WATA graded games if this has any impact on their reputation. We will see.

@samysnes 2 жыл бұрын

To quote exactly what Karl wrote on his channel: "The retro video game scam is worse than I thought. It's hilariously bad, new video coming in a couple of weeks. The FTC will be investigating this very soon."

@alex12104 2 жыл бұрын

@@Dire_Hit why would it have an impact, they give you the best final product of a graded game. It’s not even close, compare there cases to the vga ones

@mymusicpaws 2 жыл бұрын

I watch a lot of Pawn Stars and had NO idea of the connection between Wata, the sellers, and the "expert".

@robbyjvc 2 жыл бұрын

Glad you had Karl on to explain their side a bit more. Though I believe that the video does not change a whole lot for those even acquainted with the sealed games market. I'm not in the market for sealed but as someone who buys to hack/play, I can not, to paraphrase Karl, see if a game is good "by looking at it." Now, if my for-fun purchase was actually an expensive investment in a game collection, I'd want to be sure I'm not buying knock offs or misrepresented items. In my opinion this is why you cannot outlaw grading companies, and then expect the scene to be more honest. It's like Marijuana, ban that shit and it only gets you 10 times more high. :)

@GG-kn2se 2 жыл бұрын

Yay so glad to see this

@Mistertbones 2 жыл бұрын

Karl is doing a great job!

@salvagemonster3612 Жыл бұрын

I was in antique and coin business back when Jim got in trouble the first time. Folks born before 1980 know about Jim and know to stay clear of anything heritage is involved with.

@kaiserstiglitz6735 2 жыл бұрын

Great scoop Greg. Epic interview🇮🇪👍

@QuixEnd 2 жыл бұрын

Honestly never expected his channel to blow up like it has. Same for a lot of speed run coverage channels, they've gotten some serious views since 2020

@littlehelix 2 жыл бұрын

Very good discussion!

@JohnnyEvilsVids 2 жыл бұрын

22:00 If you could prove that somehow, that is a HUGE pile of bullshit and may actually be the biggest scandal within this scandal. That's enormous.

@TheSwartz 2 жыл бұрын

I am most concerned how this has affected those of us who just want to collect more common, opened games. I believe this fraud in the sealed, graded game market has influenced prices for normal folks like me :(

@liarwithagun 2 жыл бұрын

When regular people read headlines about retro video games selling for insane amounts of money, they remember and maybe even talk about that even though they know nothing about the VG collecting market. Then when they go to sell a retro game they have just laying around, they may mistakenly believe it is worth more than it is. This isn't then end of the world, but it will occasionally make it harder and/or more expensive, maybe even impossible, to buy games at yard sales or pawn shops ran by people who hold this mistaken belief of the games' value.

@HoudiniFontmeister 2 жыл бұрын

Oh it definitely has affected the market. The last 2 years has fucked normal collectors like me who buy them for playing and nostalgic reason (never selling them) I have seen many games go up 5 to 10x their price just 2 years ago. The pandemic keeping people home surely has increased demand but the inflation of it is beyond a modest increase in demand. Collecting games was always an inclusive hobby and it’s becoming more and more exclusive with this speculation

@tonynoble189 2 жыл бұрын

great discussion and video. the interesting part about this is it reaches way beyond just the video game hobby. What amazes me is this founder from Heritage Auctions, who is probably a multi-millionaire many times over, would risk his company's reputation over what, more money? And the fact that they did all this pretty much in the open so that a KZfaq Influencer could expose them at ease is stunning, the arrogance and greed is amazing, what a bunch of stupid a-holes..., I hope this story goes mainstream and these guys end up on an episode of American Greed.

@Niobae 2 жыл бұрын

Very nice talk/interview!

@DougVandegrift 2 жыл бұрын

I'm not an 'investor' in the stock market. I'm a 'collector' in the stock market!

@CharlieWyvill 2 жыл бұрын

Great discussion guys!

@0Medic0 2 жыл бұрын

I just missed out on a original Half Life Sealed, too poor to afford it but I do have Opposing Force and Blueshift sealed. I collect because I love the games I have. Its easy to say if you offered me $$$$ id say no but you never know how good or bad a offer or your own situation may be, but I never started collecting for the sake of any kind of return. Arguments can be made for both sides sure, but collecting always has and always will start from the heart, not for financial gain in one's own opinion. Loved this pod cast, earned a sub for sure. EDIT* How can I forget, thank you Karl as always for being a absolute legend and perusing the truth.

@allenforreal6155 2 жыл бұрын

The come up is real ! Grats man keep it up!

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

Appreciate it man!

@Beowulf891 2 жыл бұрын

Rarely ever see PC collecting come up. Those 90s titles are a staple of any good collection (mine included). Nice to see my domain get a little shout out.

@unstoppableExodia 2 жыл бұрын

If Karl was doing an investigative report for Four Corners (a hard hitting Australian investigative journalism program that airs on the Australian ABC) then he’d be duty bound to give the parties under the microscope an opportunity to explain their position. But he makes no secret of his own personal bias and so isn’t bound by the same requirements to appear impartial that television journalists are. His video turned my understanding of what’s going on with WATA/heritage from a line drawing to an oil painting

@kulfyr7079 2 жыл бұрын

love the interview so far. but again he stand firm on collectors don't buy expensive games because we don't see it on the gram. yet maxmoefoe have bought ishihara gx, which he showed off to mizkif and not his own fans, and had the pokemon snap gyarados for years before he showed it on his channel. and those are big money cards

@tr1bes 2 жыл бұрын

Karl. You make a great journalist, lawyer, and investigator. It's affecting the whole retro and modern gamers collecting. Sealed, unsealed, CIB, and incomplete games are effected by the pandemic. I think the pandemic is an excuse for WATA to inflated the prices of video games. They probably see retro gaming (Gamecube) and others are exceeding the regular prices. Mario 64 ($1.5 million) was fishy and raise many questions in the gaming community.

@nightbirdds 2 жыл бұрын

The one thing I don't agree with is the assertion that all of this doesn't effect those that don't get their games graded or just collect for the fun of it. It does. Go back five years and you could pick up a dozen SNES games for $20 on ebay. Now, a dozen loose games will set you back $100 or more. Why? Sellers see these high priced sales and then apply those principles to loose games. "Well, if a brand new one goes for $1000, I should be able to get $200 for mine, right?" So, yes, it is effecting the entire retro market as a whole. I'm not saying that all old games should be cheap, but the fact of the matter is that prices everywhere are inflated as a result. That's all I really have to say, there. You folks collecting sealed games, you do you. It just kind of makes me sad that practices like this are just accepted, and worse, expected.

@GetTheGreg 2 жыл бұрын

I would highly disagree with your pricing there. 2016 was one of the first "bubbles" that occurred where a cartridge of Mario 64 was pushing $50CAD. Nothing was cheap. That boat had already long sailed unless you were putting in footwork at garage sales. Might there be some spill over into CIB games? Of course. But that is largely put into exceptional copies. the cartridge market is largely unaffected and driven by actual player demand, in most cases. Sure, people become idiots with pricing. But that's nothing new haha. You'll always have people that are clueless and read a yahoo article and now think they have gold. I'll actually try to put something together using pricecharting data to try and see how the price of cartridges and average CIB prices have moved over the years. The effects of corona in general will be hard to account for, but hopefully get some concrete data to make correlations. Edit to add: if you are seeing prices rise in the cartridges you're looking at, unless they are "rare" to begin with, you can likely remain patient and get a better price in a bit once the market calms down a bit. Of course, another wave of shutdowns could throw everything out of whack again haha.

@MattMonk 2 жыл бұрын

11:00 If you think grading is a necessary part of collecting, that's very funny. I have a bunch of super valuable games and they're all as I bought them as a kid (ohhhhh, I'm one of them), I still value them personally so have them on my shelf. Slabbing them would be gross to me, as would selling them to a speculator.