I agree 100%

I'm really cautious of "no-brainers," especially in climbing. There are often things that are so easy to overlook, that if we don't think more critically and test more carefully, we could miss them altogether. In climbing, that can be fatal. While the additional X seems like an obvious improvement, I'm still going to approach it cautiously.

@@mattdryden if anything is detected against the addition of the X, I would like to know!!

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing The clove x is to complicated and uncomfy to do with more than 4 strands like you do at a 3 or 4 point ancor. But again: It refers to 10 mm slings or 5.5 mm kevlar/dyneema cord. 8 mm makes sense to do but wow wow 8 mm is thin and right at the edge 😉

@@mattdryden Very much agree - there are almost no absolutes in climbing, and we make a lot of decisions based on the specific situations. For example, the girth-X looks easier to equalise than a figure-8, and *might be a bit less shocking to your remaining gear if one point blows in a direct belay - the trade-off is that if it happens, that sling might be damaged. It's difficult to check - which could be a factor - and there's also no apparent "shelf" on such a knot, which could make a difference if you like having that option. It's complicated enough for a three-point anchor that personally I wouldn't; then again, if you build an anchor with the rope often, clove hitches aren't really an issue.

Thanks Ryan Jenks! I really like the content you put on your channel! :-)

Do it!

Any plans to do a test?

What do both of you think of a bull hitch instead of girth hitch? Will it also slip?

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing just in case my message doesn’t notify you too

Ahahah!!! Happy you liked it!!!

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing any chance you can give your analysis on the trending "fixed point belay" that uses the bowline on a bight or bunny ears 8? 🙏

7mm nylon cordelette with a big figure 8 knot is bomber and superior in terms of strength and reliability. But as for « light and fast » the girth-x has an edge in my opinion!

I agree keeping it simple is better, easier to understand, less likely to make a mistake. UHMWPE slings generally don't have a place in anchor building, they are made for "draws" and should be limited to that. Data is useful if it was obtained through a properly engineered test that can be independently verified, and the sample size is large enough to be meaningful (not the case in the referenced test videos).

@@Zeric1 Sample one is enough to show the weakness of the girth hitch and the fact that girth x keeps the main anchor inside the sling. I'd say this is the main info here...

Sounds like you got the right feeling right? Thanks for the comment!!!

You are very welcome!! A lot of people use the Clove method shown here and don’t think it is dangerous. I would use the clove-x because I don’t see why not. But yea a 7mm cordelette with big redundancy knot is much bomber…

Edelrid tech web seems like a GREAT option for this!! Thanks for letting us know!

Test it! There might be a surprise

Great pleasure to receive your comment!

Many thanks for the comment :-)

Thanks a lot Alex!

You can look at 2:33 for some nylon testing. I would think cordelettes should act in similar way. I asked Walter to use the worst scenario: round stock bar carabiner so that we get conservative results.

Thanks so much for the comment!! I must note that some people discourage the use of rings because their smooth radius make them slip more. They promote “I-beem” shaped carabiners that create more friction in the girth hitch. I think I have heard this from Karsten Delap. Best Regards!!

¡¡Con gusto!!

I had been thinking the same. If the sling cuts, the anchor still fails if it slips. I believe this should have been addressed in the video to ensure users fully understand the risk. That said, 8kn failure is a vast improvement.

That is huge! I agree! Not that you should make a 100kg weight take a factor 10 fall but it is a tool in the box to know that these knots can slip and possibly save the sling and the system from catastrophic failure! I wonder what would the final energy dissipator look like after playing with the info in this video and playing with the gear... I understand your idea?

You are welcome!

Thanks! 1/2500 s

Wow good question! I have never seen it used like that. Never seen tests either. My recommendation is to stay in known terrain... Until some people test and reflect on this kind of thing.

My preferred anchor method of fifty years, better when swinging leads, the main rope I can adjust with clove hitches and my favorite, the butterfly knot. A "Master point" was never conceived in the old days, just a secure multi-directional system that could stand a severe upward pull in a lead fall from above. Yet a butterfly can be incorporated as a Master point in a convenient place for the belayer to manage both toprope and leader belaying. Guide fashion has taken hold out of convenience for them, but the main rope is both dynamic and stronger through knots, than most complicated modern systems. Keep tie-ins simple; clove hitches, eights, and butterflies are all fine. Just use locking biners, as historically probably far more ropes have come unclipped, than ever actually broke at anchors.

Can you explain that? Why does it matter how it’s attached?

I hate to say that but I do not know for sure... I know that you should change your 5mm kevlar cords more often than nylon because their MBS degrade faster with time. But as for slip with the girth hitch etc. I would love to see more if you can post a link here... If I look at Edelrid tests here: www.edelrid.de/en/knowledge-base/sports/strength-reduction-of-textile-materials-by-knots.php I would tend to think that kevlar 5.5mm cords would hold better in a girth hitch than 8mm mammut slings. In any case, I believe the Girth-X is a better option than the Girth for building a belay anchor. Makes sense? Thanks for the comment!

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing the reference to the AMT test is here (not the original test) - use Google Translate: www.sestogrado.it/en/cordino-in-kevlar/ A bit more info but in Italian and in PDF from the Alpinist Club of Italy CAI: www.caimateriali.org/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf_marra/Bressan__-Il_Kevlar-__Le_Alpi_Venete_1-1991.pdf . Based on your french skills you may get some :)

@@alessandroiotti8620 From the first link, I understand 18kN is the pull test strength of a loop of 5.5mm kevlar cord. The sliping of the material is not tested here. The second link is broken I cannot use it... Thanks Alessandro!

"tied from the climbing rope on one of the carabiners belonging to one of the anchor placements/bolts" yes! good way to do it for sure!

Someone should test on 6mm power cord. It will not be me since I don’t end up using this girth hitch so often AND don’t use 6mm power cord. As for the 8mm accessory cord, I don’t see the point because it is heavy and bulky and would make a rather big knot. I prefer to have the standard 5-6m of 7mm cordelette and equalize with a big redundancy knot / no extension. Makes sense?

I think you may be the second person to mention that... Interesting! Thanks!

While it was not tested here, it is possible to do the girth AND the girth-x with 3 points. Try it and let me know if you figure it out…

Hi Leo, have a look at the tests published in Bergundsteigen # 119 Südtiroler Standplatz. This article is the latest and greatest about this "problem" - which isn't one 😆

Except the well understood issue with knots both weakening and slipping in static Dyneema type slings. The girth hitch with the X maintains a higher strength, with the simple initial adjustability which provides all the "equalization" needed. The Big Bulky Knot is weaker and requires a lot of material. A less adjustable but ultimately strongest solution is to use all independent slings with only carabiners and no knots to join; in short, the expedient and common solution to rigging, tying knots, is the quickest way to weaken everything.

Thank you!!

No idea. Never tested. But I suspect that 3 or 4 legs will create much more friction overall and will slip less… because a little slipping and the tension will go on multiple legs (equalization) and forces might need to be higher to continue slipping. Testing needed!!

You could say that. IMO the Girth-X is better in all situations vs the Girth. Sling cut, unclipped or carabiner broken. The risk of sliding out of the system is there in some situations but less likely with the Girth-X. But if a 120cm dyneema with a masterpoint knot is your way: don't change it, I think it is safer. Just takes longer overall. Makes sense?

All valid points. Just an extra note: Not including dyneema in fall factors is what should be done if you want to be conservative in real life scenarios. But as for bench testing, it makes more sense to include dyneema in FF estimation.

Those dynamic tests were put up with big questions. They are far away from reality - no rope involved. No climbers fall directly into the masterpoint at the belay station. So wrong question - wrong answer.

@@herpfar7651Actually, too many climbers could fall onto a "master point," in real world situations: a double chained fixed anchor, clipping in with a short sling or bight of rope, then stepping above it to rig or reach, then slipping and dropping onto it - easily an effective factor FOUR fall, i.e. six inches of dynamic material in a two foot static drop. Worse, if the sling was static as well. Lost two friends in a famous anchor fail in Yosemite years ago, likely from a fall onto the belay that ripped everything and took them to the base. "Reality" is too often a descriptor used to conflate uncommon events, with impossible ones. We need to be clear about why we plan for the potential scenarios, not just the routine ones.

@@z1522 Hm... I feel really sorry about your loss. If someone intends to fall on the masterpoint just with a cow tail, he needs to come up with a solution for that case. If the mitigation is => no girth hitch then no grth hitch. For anybody else a girth hitch masterpoint can do the job and work well.

Happy to hear that!! Enjoy!!

I was wondering if this was just me. I thought the same about the clove. I would be curious to test the worst case for that clove. What I mean is that to tied the clove x, you need (or at least Yann did in the video) to grab one strand from a side and one from other. With Peter's method, you just grab both strand on the side & clip them in. There is less room for error. So what happens with the clove x if I take 2 different strands than those shown in the video? What's the worst case and at how much does it slip? In other words, how could I mess this up by tying it incorrectly and how bad is it if I mess it up? The girtch X IMO is almost as easy to tie after a few attempts to get the hang of it.

To my knowledge, with dyneema, ANY knot will make you lose 60% of strength compared with a similar system without knot.

Depends on the sling, the carabiner and the exact state of the knot. More testing needed… Never seen that test! More than 1kN that I am sure.

Thanks Eric! You know your knots!!! I don’t see why a pile hitch would be more secure. But a bull hitch would most probably be. I will try the bull hitch for fun (at home) but will use the girth-x until anything else gets tested...

I understand where you are coming from... I was reticent at first! But today I would use it on some climbs. Not my goto with a client: I prefer the bomber 7mm cordelette with redundancy knot!

Those seemingly certified guides are right - a girth hitch with slings 10 mm and more as well as 5,5 mm cord work well - as recent tests of Ch. Semmel show. There is no significant slippage. Those tests in the video are all made with 8 mm sling which are not recommended at belay stations anyways. The thicker the sling the less slippage you get. It's always a question how tests are done - referring to reality or far away set up wrong. Just my 2 cents.

@@herpfar7651 I'm always sceptical about techniques/knots which are OK "provided you use thick enough rope/slings". If a guide uses this technique with an inexperieinced client, they will maybe go away and copy what they have seen in use, without necessarily understanding its limitations. Tying an overhand knot pretty much always works. Yes, there are fancier techniques which might give some advantages, but you need more knowledge and skill.

@@markdougherty8203 I agree. It's not easy anymore with all that new material. Wasn't easy decades ago either but we didn't know so we used it in all different ways. As a guide sure you can go out, use the gear and not talk about it to your client. That's one way. The other one is you go out, use the gear AND talk about it to your client. Guess who comes back to the guide after their own climbs? Yes... It's all about how you approach things. Do what you like to do and you'll be happy - girth or overhand.

Hi Martin! Thanks! There was quite a bit of snafu around the testing data and videos from Walter. One issue was my lack of German. While the exact details I cannot confirm, the general understanding is there… There was more tests than what I present in the video but made it as simple as possible by showing only one for each case. Does that make sense? But yes you could be right and more testing is needed!!!

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Thanks Yann for explaining it to me!

Not seen any yet! Thanks for the interest!

You nailed it pretty much! That (small 60cm sling) and that there is basically no knot to undo for the second climber. Sometimes the overhand can be hard (especially for a weaker beginner) to undo. Imagine a guide leading clients up a multi-multi pitch or a pro-team trying to cut grams and time on a route that is a multi-multi pitch... The girth-x can be an awesome tool to the arsenal! No?

For sure they are 2 good options! What you show as "thumb knot" is probably safer in general but can be a pain to undo if loaded.

I understand what you say! I don't like the pre-tied quad because I like my gear to be versatile so slings dedicated to belay anchors is not my favorite. On the other side, the knotted masterpoint system requires 120cm sewn slings and I no more carry them on climbs. All in all, I like the Girth-X with a 60cm sewn sling a lot!! If I need more (safety, reach to gear, etc.), I carry a 7mm cordelette of 5.5m to do the knotted masterpoint system with the added benefit of having gear to get options if a self-rescue situation arises.

You are right! People do it for "light and fast". My GirthX is quick to make, undo and can be done with shorter slings... Very handy in the alpine! But for general rock-climbing use, a "big" redundancy knot is certainly preferable for true redundancy.

Wow great thinking! But I would not rely on only a few tests like I have access to to put my life on the line and use this as a shock absorber without a backup... Also the spread of the load will never get to 50-50 because as soon as you have 1kN on the "other side", I believe it will cinch the girth-x so much that the originally loaded side will likely see a big part of the remaining load... You can refer to these videos with equalization tests: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/pb2ZesiD3ancqn0.html and kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fdSYltmi15ythoU.html

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Fair enough though check it out, i just did some drop test on a solid tree limb where i rigged a double grith-X and noted that the Grigri slipped a huge amount more then either Girth-X ( more then 20X) but they did creep along. The state of my figure-8 knot and the feeling in my nuts say that I took the hardest fall I've ever taken so the tree limb wasn't absorbing too much force . One interesting thing is I don't have 2 slings the same size so i set it up with two different size slings, which could lead to an interesting chain of events if somehow the shortest sling got pulled all the way to equalization with nowhere for the girth-X to slide, It would be truly static at reduced strength (the knot should weaken it yeah?) however it would still be supported by the other girth-X with whatever force it takes to to move the girth-X so if on the extreme side you lose like 40% strength 22kN=13.2kN+4kN and 17 is fine (granted that's new soft equipment) especially when if you exceed the max force you break only one sling and still have to generate enough force to move the final girth-X to extension and then apply enough force to break the last sling, to me that's good enough unless hownot2highline tests this further on the drop tower and somehow scares me.

@@TrueGoat-Bahhh Just want to add that you typically loose 60% with dyneema. Thanks for the comments!

@@TrueGoat-Bahhh Also the new grigri 2019 sometimes slips at 3kN: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/i9CJf9aqxpe4aXk.html (also 7.3 kN later in that video with a different rope!)

To me, the Girth-X on a mammut 60cm sling is fast and light: very safe, minimal gear and fast to setup and take down. It does not replace a 7mm cordelette with figure 8 (or overhand or figure 9) that provides a more bombproof option with masterpoint AND shelf. A 120/240mm sling with overhand knot can be great too. It requires a few more seconds to setup and especially to take down especially if loaded. I hear on big walls you often need to hit the knot with a hammer to loosen it!! Girth-X is like drug when you start to use it because it is so neat. (gear used, ease of use) It is good to know your other options too! What do you think?

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing I am still a long ways away from big wall climbing, but I see the purpose. And I agree it makes a lot of sense to use this method. I most likely will use it on multi pitches! Does the Girth-X requires the use of a dyneema sling or you could just use a normal tubular nylon sling?

@@christophedurand811 Nylon will work well. Try it! Dyneema is what you want when you want to be fast and carry 12 shoulder slings... But if you have 4 of them, nylon will not be any slower I think. Makes sense? My 2 cents!

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Alright thanks! I was wondering, because I think I read somewhere that dyneema is less likely to slip because of ??.

@@christophedurand811 dyneema is MORE likely to slip. See here: www.vdiffclimbing.com/nylon-dyneema/

It's Not What You Know. It's Who You Know! ;-)

no

Different and good, with pros and cons. Not better.

I found the conclusion interesting: « When subjected to the load, some knots did not tear but instead slipped until the loose end came through the knot. These values are marked with an *. In the case of Dyneema® in particular, knots start to slip quickly. Back-up protection to prevent complete slipping is therefore urgently required. » I agree! The difference between the testing I present and the one by Edelrid might be the bar radius and bar cross-section shape of the carabiner used for testing. The testing I present is round stock so worst possible scenario.

You suggest to add slip knots in the setup? To stop potential slipping? Not sure I understand where you are going with this… can you explain?

You mean 21:17 ... Well at 15:24 you clearly see the part that gets damaged (falls apart) is blue so it must be nylon ( dyneema cannot be dyed so is always white). I believe it is not melting but rather tearing apart. Someone else has a different idea here?

Yes, the white part is dyneema which is the majority of this sling. The nylon is just to add color. But it’s the dyneema that is slippery.

@@rockklimber Ok thanks! I believe they put nylon to keep it all together and protect the edges from some friction... Makes sense?

But dyneema is more abrasian resistant than nylon. Perhaps its at the abrasian points for the higher melting point

Actually I think we said the same thing

LOL I chatted with David Lottmann and Brent Peters and they are fully ok with it! So I guess it must be 3 dislikes from Orthovox ;-) . They never answered my message about it...

To use less gear, be faster in the mountains. Not the best in every situation! Makes sense?

Do you talk about the rock exotica enforcer load cell? It reads at 500 samples per second. I think this is enough for the testing in this video. In a dynamic test a 1kN load will generate much more force than 1kN. Do you feel I answered correctly?

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Thanks for the reply. My concern though isn't with the meter. For example, if a rope hangs from the ceiling and the meter is between the rope and the ceiling and I'm 50kg and I'm also hanging on the rope, the meter should read 50kg (+ rope weight). However, if I'm sliding down the rope at a constant speed, the meter will read less than 50kg unless I'm slowing down. I'm not sure how much these little things matter though. Thanks!

@@79istp If the 50kg slides down at constant speed, the load cell will read 50kg. If the 50kg is slowed down by friction, it will read more than 50kg. If the 50kg accelerates because friction is low, it will read less than 50kg. Makes sense?

Excellent question! The worst scenario has been tested here with 2 simulated climbers of 130kg each AND a hard lead fall on the Petzl Attache « Chute en facteur élevé avec un mousqueton sous contraintes » in this document escalroc26.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/hms.pdf and the attache did not break and was usable after the 1.78 factor fall of 80kg. So while it is not ideal, it sounds « safe enough » for most carabiners. But then: make sure you don’t cross load the master carabiner!! (Almost impossible to imagine with any girth or clove or...) Makes sense?

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Yes make sense Thank you lord for good answer.

AlpineSavvy actually has an article on this, referencing the same Petzl image. TL;DR: Tri-axial loading can definitely reduce the strength, but generally not enough to really be of concern. www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/lets-talk-about-off-axis-carabiner-loading

Good stance!

Je comprends mais je cherche à faire évoluer l'escalade de façon globale et les vidéos en français me demandent trop d'énergie pour peu d'impact. Par contre, je donne 95% de mes formations en personne en français!

Oh yea cannot go wrong with two separate slings!!

Or carabiner

You mean a BFK? How would you use a carabiner to make a backup?

Well to start up there are many sling models and many cross-bar shapes for carabiners so this is an example that worked. I am more interested in finding if one example fails meaning some climbers might be at risk... The test suggestion slip at 1.2kN (in my video) means that one climber might be ok but two might make the girth hitch slip. And we know there are often 2 climbers at belays so... I recommend a Girth-X! Makes sense?

Jump to 16:00 for the drop tests 👍😊

@@jbdavisnc I watched that part

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing yeah, i mean, for a regular top roping anchor at the crag, i'll still prefer a pre-tied quad. for a multi-pitch, with someone standing within reach of the anchor, i think it's reasonable without the x. that said, the time to add the x is minimal.

Absolutely! Thanks

The sliding x is not redundant. If the sling fails, the whole thing fails. You could do a sliding x with 2 slings. And I must say it will either not extend at all if one leg fails, or slide very little (in the case of the girth x version). But I guess more testing is needed and this is just my 2 cents on the subject! ;-) Thanks for the comment!!!

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing But doesn't your video show that the girth/clove hitch sliding x doesn't hold? It slips at very low level of force. So while the sliding x is not redundant, neither is the girth/clove hitch sliding x according to your video. That's why I said just use a sliding x, at least it equalises.

@@zeitgeist785 If a sling gets cut with the sliding x you are dead. If you use the girth only, you are less dead. If you use the girth x, you are even less dead. I want to be as little dead as possible when I go climbing. It is a game of protection against the odds. You have to pull 5kN (or is it?) to be dead with the girth x after a sling gets cut. I like that. Makes sense?

You mean the sliding x? A sliding x does not have redundancy in the sling. Except if you do it with 2 slings... Do I miss something?

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing by redundancy in the sling you mean when sling brake? Yes you right here but more likely carab will unclip or one of the nuts/cams will let go before that happens. Will the munter hitch work here???

@@CorkBouldering From my experimentation and the experience of the Guides presented in my video, I recommend the clove X. But yes both the clove x and the munter would save your butt if a carabiner unclips or a nut lets go. About the possibility of a failure of the sling, we had one deadly accident in French Canada where the sling was compromised and there was no backup. He fell before he could setup the rappel.

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing munter will still hold if the sling fails.

There is no safety. Only risk management. The more you play, the more you botch, the more you risk. I want to play a lot and live a long and happy life. I think a lot of people feel the same!! Sometimes it is so easy to make things more safe... Good comment.

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Yes of cours! But my Credo in alpine climbing was and is quick and simple and same. To avoid mistakes. Nowadays… Every year new ideas…Products…

If I understand well, you refer to the sliding x right? The sliding X is not redundant. The girth X adds some redundancy.

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing I refered to the sliding knot presented early in the video comparing it to the girth knot, that one can srt of "equalize" loads on both anchors, so it is safer, thinking in the case one of the anchors fails.. the "travel" to the anchor for hitting the knot would be limited by adding a simple knot to each line from the sliding knot/master carabiner to each acnhor (closer to the master carabiner rather than to the anchor). Well maybe this is a good option for "trad placements" where you want to minimeze forces on such anchors. Abaout the sliding X, I am not sure yet, have to analyze better the video, how it would "equialize" forces among the anchors instead of "transfering all or the most of the forces to a single acnhor". Thank for the video, very useful, shirgin with friends :) !!!

I plan a short version of it... Thanks for the comment!!

@@YannCamusBlissClimbing more importantly... Why would anyone use either of these options when a sliding-X or a quad make both of them obsolete?

@@jasonpicard909 much easier to tie and untie girth and clove in gloves in alpine

@@jasonpicard909 a sliding x isn't redundant, and a quad uses up more anchor material and is harder to tie when you have 3+ pieces

I think you are very black and white! Nothing is right for you?

Dyneema slings are slim, lightweight, already on my harness, and they don’t absorb water. Why do they need to go away? This information was never presented as the definitive scientific test to decide once and for all which anchor style is best. It’s just information. More is better, but I’ll take one data point over none, that’s more than i had yesterday. Thanks Yann, keep this content coming.

@@xchinvanderlinden I love my Dyneema slings. They make my life easier (climbing) on every outing! On big walls and in the alpine, I think they are game changers. Thanks for your comment!

I think Clyde has a point about the dynamic testing. It plays a vital part in verifying any method. I am not sure the very static fall test used here simulates the forces of a real fall in any meaningful way. Still, as has been said, it is a starting point, and hopefully Yann has inspired further testing!

@@johnliungman1333 I am sure more testing will follow. It will be great to see a FF2!

Also don’t fall

Are you saying dyneema should never be knotted ever?

@@largeformatlandscape Dyneema/spectra tape is almost always sold as a sewn runner by climbing retailers and is designed to be used at full length between two carabiners. As opposed to nylon webbing or cordage, which is easily found sold by the foot and can be knotted and used in a wide variety of situations. Dyneema/spectra (UHMWPE) has properties that are very different than nylon, it has a very low coefficient of friction and relatively low melting point making it more difficult to safely tie knots. Are there certain knots that it could be used safely under some circumstances, yes, but almost no one talks about these important details. Unfortunately lots of videos, or people just out climbing, treat Dyneema exactly the same as nylon, using the same knots in the same situations, and this is a mistake. Manufacturers of climbing gear are one of the best sources of information, most are surprisingly receptive to answering questions.