Pure emotion lol

I enjoy how humble cliff is by not chasing after these emotional types that don't listen very well.

He realized he's out of his league then decided to drop the mic 🎤 and walk away like he won 🤣

cliff is truly A Man after Christ

Its impossible to convince a fool that he's a fool. That's why God says not to put pearls before swine.

She’s idealistic and doesn’t have a clue as to the real world outside of college. So she just has to grow up and mature

@@albusdumbledore219 the church doesn’t have a clue about the secular word outside its doors, Jesus is wrong and I’ll prove it, he says I won’t come to him for fear that my evil works will be exposed, I am speaking for myself and I am me and I’m telling you that is not true.

@@Notarabbit911 so you love the darkness; evil?

@@kingkayleb I’m not evil, I’m not a moral geek either

⁠@@Notarabbit911all sin is evil. I have done evil because I have rebelled against God. I do not deserve heaven. No one does. But God WANTS all of us there. If you say Jesus is wrong then why would you not want to accept a free gift of salvation? If the reason is you don’t believe then you should know Jesus has a lot to say about not believing. That’s your argument though? Really? Just because a singular thing Christ said in John chapter 3? You have faith in that being a sound reason why you can’t trust God?

Relativism is killing humanity. And you're right, they DON'T see it. In fact, many are so sure that what they want is what others OUGHT to do that they never investigate why others should care.

@@saintpaulofyoutube4416 You just described how Christians behave.

@@JVIPER88 so? Christians believe in objective moral values so it's perfectly rational. How do you justify your belief that others should behave the way you want them to?

@@JVIPER88 maybe you should learn what relativism means… it means anything goes. For example, Rape is okay and so is murder and so is torturing kids. rethink your comment and come back to us.

Exactly Cliffe. AMEN BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST OUR LORD 🙏❤️. I really enjoy and appreciate his Christ centered content it really shows how ignorant millions of people are about both Christianity and Atheism. This has nothing to do with the video but please listen if you want to otherwise leave it alone and ignore it. Hello my name is Justin and I'm a fellow Christian and Apologist but I'm also a college student. I'm not a closed minded Theist as I have nothing against Atheists or unbelievers as I speak to them often to understand their reasons for unbelief but we as Christians are convinced of God's Existence due to many real factors). I'm not trying to convert anyone or convince anyone to become Christians as that's The Holy Spirit's job to help people believe but only explain why I believe in Jesus Christ. There's actually evidence of God's Existence in Christianity. First of all there's proof that Jesus of Nazareth existed in history since the writings of Tacitus, Josephus Flavius, Pliny the younger and other historical documents prove that He was living two thousand years ago that even scholars both religious and Atheists agree with historically speaking but not that He's The Divine Son of God because obviously they don't. I'm going to give you historical and archeological evidence for God's Existence as The Scriptures have prophecies that predate the events recorded in them by several millennia including Matthew, Hosea and Zechariah which prophesy accurately of the people of Israel becoming a nation again after over 1900 years of being scattered around the nations since the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. spoken of by Christ in Matthew 23:29-24:3 and returning to their homeland after The Holocaust with Jerusalem as their capital in 1948 exactly as Jesus The Christ said. The prophets including Daniel spoke of the time where several world empires would arise and fall including the Babylonian kingdom, Medes and Persians, Roman Empire, and Saladin and the Muslims which went in consecutive order for the past few millennia. The people of Israel becoming a nation after The Holocaust in 1948 (ironically the melting point of gold as God compares Israel to gold that's tested in fire in Zechariah 13:8 and Jeremiah 16:15) exactly how Jesus The Christ said would happen since God us everything to come in The Scriptures and not just because people were working towards as Atheists claim which are impossible for any regular man to predict. Just before anyone says Christianity is a white man's religion made to oppress blacks during slavery you obviously aren't aware that the first Christians were Jews in The Middle East and that Christianity just like any religion can be used by evil and corrupt people to oppress others but you forget that the first Abolitionists/Civil Rights activists were Christians who sought to abolish slavery, racism, segregation, injustice and prejudice throughout American history. Jesus The Christ loves you enough not to give you what we all deserve which is God's Wrath by His Own Blood. Charles Darwin didn't originally come up with The Theory of Evolution over 200 years ago as it is mentioned in the writings of Ancient Greeks who believed in Demons that gave knowledge to philosophers. Evolution makes no sense when nothing has evolved after thousands of years of human history and supposedly the first creature came from primordial sludge several millions of years ago funny how they won't believe that God an Eternal Almighty Spirit Being created us from the Earth) which came from a supermassive expansion of matter at high temperature that inexplicably created everything in the known universe that supposedly came from nothing billions of years ago. How did the organs evolve before there were bones, skin, substance and how did any creatures see before eyes evolved? I've studied evolution and abiogenesis in the past and read Darwin's " Origin of The Species" I've studied evolution and abiogenesis in the past and read Darwin's " Origin of The Species" and I'm not convinced of but not macro or micro Evolution because there's no evidence of it nor clear observable examples of it where living creatures evolve into other kinds of species plus the fact that fossils don't show evidence of evolution and genetic entropy rules out evolution. The question begs how did two genders evolve from a common ancestor with a perfectly hospitable and sustainable environment with breathable oxygen and resources to survive on inexplicably? Atheists have the burden of proof to explain how everything came to be and why our existence is possible without the Existence of God from an godless perspective just as Christians have to provide evidence of God's Existence and the validity of His Word. Evolution requires life to already exist in order to take any effect in living organisms so it doesn't account for the existence of Life and reality. Also evolution is impossible because it goes against The Law of entropy and the second Law of thermodynamics because evolution makes things better whereas nothing continues to get better but decays and turns to absolute destruction in the end. Mark Ridley an Evolutionist said "No evolutionist whether gradualist or punctuationist uses the fossil record as evidence in favor of The Theory of Darwinian Evolution as opposed to special Creation". God's Existence is made perfectly known and observable in the universe as demonstrated in His Handiwork in the intelligently designed manner that Creation was made, human consciences and consciousness historical and archaeological evidence of God's Word being valid history, fulfillment of Bible Prophecies God in His Holiness and Righteousness could give us what we deserve in Hell for our since but He's merciful to give us free will to choose to accept or reject His gift of salvation by grace through faith in His Son Jesus. I don't mean this is any condescending manner but if you'd like to discuss The Scriptures with me or have me listen to your view on anything my instagram account is Savage Christian Kombatant.

No human is the real enemy, dark spiritual influence at work.

What struggle, you’ve never lived in a ruff outdoor or 3rd world environment

@@Notarabbit911And you’ve never experienced the real battle of Satan and his followers on earth

@@albusdumbledore219 are you saying no body has done it Tougher than you, what about people in 3rd world countries, who ever is attacking them must be something worse than Satan , as if Satan attacks you, why do you do it tuff sometimes? Because that’s life, stop scapegoating Satan for all your problems.

@@albusdumbledore219 the real battle with Satan 😆 😆 😆 are you serious, you think that’s real?

The intelligence level of students rapidly decreased

@@Mojojojo335 😂😂😂😂 they are to smart for themselves

oh the wokeism is out of control ... the people who messed these students minds up will answer for it when they meet God.

@@SELAHPAUSE 🏖️I help expose our evil government (the Illuminati) i have 2,145,212+Total views💜[The about section will blow your mind]☄️×🕊️+

We are loosing our values generation by generation. Steadily we are falling away from the scriptures and from what Jesus taught. College teaches everything is relative, reality is there is very little relative in life. Most things come down to good and evil or right and wrong if you honestly think about it.

yeah, and he only gets irritated when it’s completely necessary - very hard to do

I recently started preaching in the university and I'm blown the great conversation you can have with each other

@@preachingjesusministry7201 Several YT St Preachers been doing that for years. I've met Pastor Cliffe and Assistant Pastor Stuart, and have listened to them speak on a University Campus

@@Brucev7 what university he be in ?

@@preachingjesusministry7201 This looks like either University of TX, or Southwest TX St

The morality argument is what made me a believer, lifelong atheist who was raised atheist and this topic is what opened my mind.

You know what’s weird to me that no one ever brings up? Why does music have an emotion correlation? Like you could play triumphant music (with no lyrics) to any culture, and my guess is they would all describe the emotion of the music the same. Not 100% but generally speaking.

@@BobDobalena Charlie Kirk lists music as one of strongest proofs that God exists.

You've addicted yourself to accepting nonsense as facts, and believing nonsense spreaders without question, thereis no such thing as "Militant atheist" there is only one "Type" of atheist, one that rejects theist claims their gods exist, the fact your using a theist fallacious claim of what atheist are, signals to me your a liar to claim you were ever an atheist. There is a valid reason atheist reject theist god claim, so inform me of the irrefutable, undeniable, indisputable, empirical, demonstrative conclusive evidence the god you now claim to exist, does so, if you cannot ( and no one has ever been able to)then have the honesty to admit you lied when you said you were an atheist.

Same here. I grew up in the stars! I love astrophysics and everything about it but GOD MADE ALL OF THIS. Whos to say Jesus isn’t the son of God! Christ is King! To believe in his one and only son❤️

They're outside in the sunshine, too. Makes no sense.

@@taramckinley7585 none of it makes sense

@@jesussaves4623 yeah, a worshiping a human sacrifice doesn't make much sense either

@@GuitarDog_atx strawman argument, we worship Jesus, God in the flesh not a human, a hypostatic union. Try again?

@@jesussaves4623 not a strawman. It's biblical. He was a human when he supposedly "died"

I am a quite sure humanity is more resilient than that.

@@theoskeptomai2535 I bet you are. I've been praying for you lately.

@@paulinhisprime8440 Do believe praying for me is going to slow or stop this 'devolving' of humanity?

@@theoskeptomai2535 Just praying that you will give your life to Christ one day. The end is already written, it's what we do now that counts.

@@paulinhisprime8440 The end of _what_ is already written?

Hopefully the young college kids will not buy into an evil religion sending billions to hell

Thats a good question lol I'll have to try it next time i debate atheist !

Silli argument,your mind sounds like a 4 year old.

@@ericscaillet2232 care to elaborate?

There are a load of different responses to seeing a wallet dropped. Here are six that I can think up right now: 1) Return it to the owner 2) Keep it for yourself 3) Do nothing 4) Remove all forms of ID, hand it to the police and claim ignorance to who it belongs to so you can legally take ownership at a later date if the owner does not claim it first 5) Hand it to someone else to return to the owner 6) Donate the monetary content to charity How do you know the family is poor? Knowing the family is likely to generate a very different response to not knowing them. Taking it I would not feel guilty because I could easily justify my action in such a scenario. Personally, 95% of the time I would return it to the owner. I would return the wallet as a pragmatic principle. For starters, you qualified the family as poor. Therefore, the content of their wallet will not be life-changing for me. Second, I want to live in a world where if I drop my wallet someone will return it to me. I believe in leading by example and positively contributing towards the type of society I want to live in. Third, people will generally hold those who demonstrate helpful integrity in an esteemed position and be far more willing to reciprocate such favourable behaviour. Fourth, as a social species, we receive positive reinforcement when we help the tribe in the form of dopamine. It makes us feel good. We get pleasure from helping others.

I think to add to your statement: "If you could commit a crime that would make you feel pleasure and improve your life, and you knew you would get away with it, AND you knew it would benefit your society, heck, the world, why wouldn't you do it?" Let's say you're a Jew who stealthily captured Hitler and offed him in some underground bunker no one knows about. Most people would want a maniacal tyrant like Hitler dead, and yet many people would probably feel there is a clear distinction between simply ending the life of someone who is clearly a major threat to life and torturing someone who has perpetrated harm to life. In the end, what's the difference between that Jew torturing Hitler before he eventually dies (brings pleasure to him, improves his life and his society's and the world's quality of life when he eventually kills Hitler, and no one even knows it was him who did it, and he feels no guilt, in fact, feels very justified in doing all this) and ending it without the prolonged torture? If people even consider Hitler is worthy of the torture, why is it acceptable in his case and not in other cases, for instance, with a murderer who has only killed one person in a relatively or completely painless way? Is it just the number of kills, the way they killed? In fact, why is killing another human wrong in most cases, even some extreme cases, and yet killing someone like Hitler would generally be seen as acceptable, perhaps even good? Isn't it interesting that typically the basis of moral decision making is around protecting life AND the quality of that life, whether it's one's own or another's? It affirms the value of life itself, and even if a society was based on the idea of torturing, killing, and eating other humans or living things, it would at the very least affirm the value and dignity of one's own life, which makes no sense if someone believes we are no different than say a train wreck: random atoms colliding until you eventually get humans. People generally try to stop someone from ending their own life, even if it's what they want, even if it seems reasonable on the surface given their circumstances, even if it "doesn't harm anyone else," even if that person's death may seemingly benefit others. To be intellectually consistent, the idea of protecting life of any kind is just as absurd as protecting your trash, your damaged goods, your dysfunctional equipment, or your harmful cleaning chemicals because that is just as valuable as what humans are if no outside purpose is given, infused innately in our makeup. I said it elsewhere in the comments here, but I'll simplify here again. I feel people get caught up in the specifics of a specific moral code and don't address the fundamentals enough, namely that all humans are trying to live what they consider "good" while avoiding what they consider "evil," and that that concept's basis is around the affirmation of the value of life and the quality of that life, whether it is all life, human life, or just one's own life. If I had to describe morality, I would describe it that way and argue from there rather than focusing too narrowly on the specific expression of that moral code.

Glory to God

Happy birthday!!

THe burden of proof is on the theist.

@@stonemaze9925 Actually, BOTH sides have the burden of "proof", the theist and the atheist/naturalist. But basically you are admitting that I'm right. When the naturalist is challenged to give good reasons for their faith, they've got nothing.

One person sees a man healed with no medical intervention and says praise God, the other says well no wonder look his red blood cell count increased and that is why he was healed, hes lucky. Science can provide the how, but never the why.

@@dogelife7901 Luke 16:31?

@@stonemaze9925 Can't handle the load, can ya? Isn't that what I said? Yep!

Is it possible this god you've mentioned does not exist?

@@theoskeptomai2535 Even if Jesus stands in front of you performing miracles, you will still not believe in Him, just like many of the Pharisees and Sadducees in the time Jesus walk on the earth. Not only you won't believe in Him, but you will also hate Him and desire to murder Him again.

Exactly they rather believe nonsense than admit to him having a point, prideful and wrong.

@@shuoyuanshih8583 Do you make false projections about all people or only atheists?

@@theoskeptomai2535 It doesn't matter whether atheists or agnostics ot theists. The pharisees and sadducees surely aren't atheists nor agnostics. They are in fact in the level of a scholar and the level of high priests. They know all the texts, try to obey every laws, and worship God daily. They took it very seriously. The thing I am saying is, even the extremely religious pharisees and sadducees in Jesus's day can't recognize Him as the Messiah and accept Him as the visible physical manifestation of God the Father who is an invisible Spirit. No matter how much head knowledge they have about the prophecies of the Messiah and tons of living evidences given, they just simply can't believe it. They saw it with their eyes, yet they saw none. They heard it with their ears, yet they heard none. They profess to be wise, yet they can't understand. They are spiritually blinded, deafened, and heart hardened. They can't see God in Jesus. God makes those who self proclaimed to be wise to become foolish. God resists the proud. They can't see God unless they first humble themselves and start praying. We can't find God in this world by our own efforts. Only God draws us to Himself will we find Him. Ultimately, they hated Jesus and considered Him as a threat. They planned to falsely accuse Him and murder Him which they did. Also, today the world hates Christians because they hate Jesus first. See how Christians are portrayed as the bad ones, the crazy ones, the silly ones, in nowadays by the media and society? See how Christian values and teachings are considered offensive and must be silenced at all cost? The most hated, persecuted, mocked, assaulted, and mudered religion in the world? The most blasphemed name used as a cuss word is Jesus? The world tolerates everything but Christianity? Every Ideas and laws start to rebel against God by doing the opposite? ...etc. Hope this answers your question. God bless you in Jesus's name.

Appreciate the support and God bless you friend.

@@stuartknechtle9575 🏖️I help expose our evil government (the Illuminati) i have 2,145,212+Total views💜[The about section will blow your mind]☄️×🕊️+

Love your name

Inspiring you to do what ?

@@20yrs_oldBlackGuy I find it inspiring when fellow Christians defend their faith and reasons for following Christ.

🏖️I help expose our evil government (the Illuminati) i have 2,145,212+Total views💜[The about section will blow your mind]☄️×🕊️+

She keeps taking her mask off while talking.. what's even the point 😂😂💀

🏖️I help expose our evil government (the Illuminati) i have 2,145,212+Total views💜[The about section will blow your mind]☄️×🕊️+

You are wright but his mannerisms, in my eyes comes over as if hè is mocking God and is pridefull in doing that. I don’t want to jump to any conclusions here but, if the mind is the battlefield then satan has a pretty large spot occupied.

@@timapperloo786 The mannerisms were not out of mockery, you can tell this guy is just somewhat socially awkward.

@@iQuiiKKz Yes, i also agree with that.

316👍🤗

Oh, please...!!!

​@@stonemaze9925 stay tuned wokie, you'll learn a thing or two.

Not from you for sure@@JohnjOcampo

@@stonemaze9925 what could i ever teach a human being who wilfully reduces reality to simply matter and energy just because his puny eyes can't see it all that's in existence.

What can I tell a deluded individual that thinks he/she sees things that are not there, and cannot give one, not one solid piece of evidence that is testable outside of his/her own imagination? And how do you know what I think? ...Now, the historical figure of Jesus may be based on an itinerant Apocalyptic Nazarene rabbi at the time, and there is no known authour of those gospels...Check it out....KJV introduction pages....Who was accredited with saying 'None so blind but those who will not see...' But I say: 'None so stupid as those who imagine that they see things'.@@JohnjOcampo

Don’t let the fish off the hook.

She was shook when he brought up the Dread Scott decision

If society agrees them it's right. Oh hello abortion, didn't see you there.

@@dogelife7901 you think killing innocent babies is right?

Care to hone you debating skills in a cordial debate concerning my rational position of atheism? I can point out any flaws I recognize in your arguments. It can help you prepare for the next time you debate an atheist. I will take no offense if you decline this invitation. Just thought I'd give you a learning opportunity. Peace.

I love how Theo Skeptomai always wants not discuss his favorite subject.... himself. Yawn...

Is lying objectively immoral in your view jrc?

@@bonnie43uk Keep fishing and being facetious, troll!

@@bonnie43uk *yawn* Next!

@@jrc99us Where do i find a list of these objectively immoral acts jrc? .. and are they clearly defined? ... if a person has a sexy thought, is that objectively immoral, or does it very much depend on the situation?

Oh my, seems like bonnie43uk has cranked the emotional angst up to 8.

Its a sin problem

We need to place our faith in Jesus...not humanity. 😇🙏😎

@@mrupholsteryman you’re absolutely right. 🙏🏻❤️👍🏻 thank you

Yeah me personally I don't think there is a wrong or right in a crime you commit honestly. You can't control your self. So for instance if someone instigated something to the instigator then you do something that's breaking the law according to the justice system I consider you to not be right or wrong.

I'm a Christian and I don't approve this comment.

@@yetsomgize83 What is your point then because you don't approve it?

@@20yrs_oldBlackGuy sorry comment was meant for @Jonah Ghost

@@yetsomgize83 I know it was. I'm just asking what do you disagree with ?

The Egyptians built the pyramids, albeit with the help of millions of Jewish slaves. Imagine what they'd do with today's tech. It's a matter of resources not ability. "Cave men" were just men without cellphones and metallurgy. No evolution or branches of some lesser human form men have always been men since they were created. It's the old "why would I believe a book written by sheep herders" as if they didn't live in the time of the collesuem and massive "advanced" civilized empires. And it conveniently implies that we are somehow smarter and more advanced when in many ways its the opposite.

You shove them on trains, send them to work camps, and gas them. It's for the good of your country!

So by her logic rape isn't wrong murder or Hitler killing innocent jews.

I guess that's why our elders and people from the older generation calls us infants.

By his logic he would be a serial rapist if he didn't believe in God.. sick man sick smh

Her eyes are crazy and out of touch

That's her signal on switching between subjective and objective morality.

The real question is, why do Christians need an imaginary friend to tell them not to rape each other??

kinda like her mind

Driving me crazy watching her pull it up and down, makes no sense??

Ah, go easy on her. For her to hang in there and so sincerely debate is pretty awesome. I believe His seeds are planted in her mind now.

Have you ever observed a spirit?

Have you ever observed love?

@@dogelife7901 "

@@dogelife7901 Certainly. I observe love every single day. So have you observed a spirit? Yes or no.

@@theoskeptomai2535 The context is the mind, through man's wisdom(philosophy, humanism etc) the mind does not receive the things of the Spiriit of God, and also cannot know them, why? Because they are spiritually discerned. 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1 Corinthians 1:21-23

Couldn't agree more!

Sure. But it doesn't. Instead it says "This is the way it's been up until now. We're going to make these changes. And eventually, slavery will be no more."

Slavery in biblical times was of its own kind. It was part of the society where people who could not pay their debt otherwise, sold themselves to be able to do so.

@@nikokapanen82 wrong.

@@Malhaloc that’s like me being a rapist and saying I’m not going to rape anymore. Fine for the people I encounter in the future. But what about the ones I’ve wronged in the past. It might have been different if someone with authority I loved, revered, and respected said don’t rape. Not, I’ll slowly help you change your mind on rape.

@@mykidsfather6112 rape violates at least 3 of the commandments: Theft, murder and adultery. I'm sure if I think about it harder I can come up with more. But you would make it a single commandment? "Do not rape"?

You do understand what "the burden of proof" is dont you? Belief is not a choice you are either convinced or you are unconvinced and it's evidence that convinces. I could not just make myself believe in fairies at the bottom of my garden no matter how much I closed my eyes and stamped my feet. Therefore it's you that need to convince her , not vice versa. Are you DESPERATELY trying to convince yourself that pink unicorns are not real ? How about aliens , yeti's, leprechauns, Thor, zeus, Mohammed ??

@@trumpbellend6717 Fairies and unicorn arguments are category errors. They are fallacies of equivocation when used as comparisons to the inference of the existence of a supreme being logic. Believing that life comes from non life and that order comes from chaos are truth claims that that require an awful lot of faith. Comparing the belief in fairies to the logical inference based belief in the existence of a first and sufficient cause for the existence of the universe, is merely atheists obviously trying to escape their own burden of proof. When confronted by Stuart about the hypocrisy of moral relativism this girl's answer was that she had to leave. The truth made her uncomfortable. I truly believe that an atheist doesn't find God for the same reason a criminal doesn't find the police. Not because they're bad people, but because they don't want a god to exist, and refuse to acknowledge the evidence (not proof) that points in that direction.

@@2569dan "category errors" and "false equivocation" you say well I would disagree are Thor & zeus also not man made "supreme beings" just like Yarweh ? But ok if you want to insist on another equivocation could I not just ASSERT that the "first cause lies in......... About 500 million light years past the milky way there is a planet . And way underground in caves on this planet there lives a tribe of invisible leprechauns. They spend their days FARTING , and these FARTS smell like lemon curd. But every third fart then turns into a galaxy, incredible. Can you prove that those FARTS dont smell like lemon curd eh can you ? Can you ? Because if you can't it must therefore be true .😀. Now are you DESPERATELY trying to convince yourself that my leprechauns are not real ?? Or are you just unconvinced because there is insufficient evidence to warrant belief?? You dont believe in my leprechauns but You see I'm not saying your a bad person but that " you dont want my -God- leprechauns to exist. ( you see what I did there 🤔 ) _"life from non life"_ Do YOU not think that your God made life from non life ?? If you want to claim that your God is eternal then I say DEMONSTRATE IT .. ... or I could just ASSERT that life has always existed 😜 Let me guess my explanation has to follow rules that yours does not because your explanation is "MAGIC" 💥 Special pleading anyone ?? I have no "burden of proof " that lies entirely at YOUR door. . You do realise that the burden of proof lies with those making the positve claim dont you.? Athiesm is not necessarily the claim that god does not exist , but rather it's about being unconvinced by the evidence provided saying he does To use a courtroom analogy . You the prosecution accuse god of of being guilty of Existing I the jury find him not guilty of existing ( because of lack of evidence) that DOES NOT MEAN I definitely know he is INNOCENT of existing. Merely that you have not provided enough evidence to prove him guilty ,,,, ,,, I find god not guilty of , existing. As for your nonsense about the girls morality being "hypocritical" and "moral relativism" let's take a closer look at that shall we ........ Now i shall deal with it in respect to both the christian and secular perspectives this is going to entail a rather long response I'm afraid I apologise in advance. It also has 2 small pieces of copy & paste data, at the start but the rest is all my own words. But please bear with me and read through to the end . Ok let's start with the christian perspective as it's by far the most complicated. Theological morality revolves around the concepts of Sin and objectivity neither of which stand upto scrutiny. Sin is a percieved transgression against specific gods wishes yet if we are talking about what SIN is and the objectivenes of a god there are only 2 billion Christians out of 7 billion people on earth so that's 5 billion people dont even think the god with the talking snake & donkey Is the correct one. Let's break that down before we address christianity shall we. of followers: Here are just 20 of the most popular gods out of THOUSANDS Christianity: 2.1 billion Islam: 1.3 billion Hinduism: 900 million Chinese traditional religion: 394 million Buddhism: 376 million African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million Sikhism: 23 million Juche: 19 million Spiritism: 15 million Judaism: 14 million Baha'i: 7 million Jainism: 4.2 million Shinto: 4 million Cao Dai: 4 million Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million Tenrikyo: 2 million Neo-Paganism: 1 million Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand Rastafarianism: 600 thousand Scientology: 500 thousand Ok now let's move onto the one that's the correct religion in *your subjective opinion* Christianity is separated into thousands of denominations. Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Apostolic, Methodist - the list goes on. Estimations show there are more than 200 Christian denominations in the U.S. alone. According to Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there exist roughly 43,000 Christian denominations worldwide in 2012. That is up from 500 in 1800 and 39,000 in 2008 and this number is expected to grow to 55,000 by 2025. Do they all agree about the trinity ? Is the pope the head of the church? Can priests marry ? Birth control ? Sexuality? Can women be ordained ? How to attain salvation? The nature of mary ? Dispensationalism vrs covernantalism Freewill vrs predestination ? Eternal security ? Faith vrs works ? Heaven ? Hell? Evolution? Alcohol? Birth control? I'm going to stop here because I could literally go on for hours. They disagree and have different opinions with regard to all of the above that's precisely WHY they have different denominations. *ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE* All these different gods and denominations past and present offer differing morality that has nothing to do with human wellbeing but often contradict and conflict with each other on almost every issue. Now if YOU want to claim your particular god as the objective reference point for morality. You first have to show that YOUR particular god is infact THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and *not merely the only true god in your subjective opinion* Are all the other gods and denominations other than yours false and yours true If so prove it . otherwise you offer nothing but a *subjective opinion on morality* But let's just suppose there is *A* god for the sake of argument, and his intent was to convey his moral objectivity to us via scriptures. ( _extremely unlikely god would choose this method in my humble opinion_ ) has he been successful? I think we can all agree that need for apologists and interpretation of copies of copies of translations has led to vast numbers of wildly differing beliefs and even none belief. That's just in regard to the god of the bible, Not to mention all the other current and past gods people believed in. So I think we can all agree he has failed in achieving objectivity with regard to morality in this respect. Under the current world theology, objectivity does not exist. *HOWEVER* there is still the possibility of a more deist god who exists and has a objective moral standard as yet not conveyed. This god may agree with my moral views about our current proposed gods scriptures containing unjust and imoral teachings, for all we know. Or maybe his objective morals could be something that we all would find abhorrent who can say. *This kind of objectivity would be a bit like getting a set of wardrobes from IKEA with no construction manual. Utterly useless* , we would just have make do the best we can ourselves regardless of whether the manuals exist or not is irrelevant without knowledge of what they say. A god that is not detectable in the real world is of no more use than a god that does not exist. So in short for me the objectivity of any gods proposed or otherwise is either none existent or irrelevant. In either case It would be illogical to base morality on this undetectable concept.

@@2569dan Ok let's move onto my perspective of morality shall we. why is murder or slavery ect considered imoral under my world view you may wonder. Well although I do not believe in objective morality as such, that then does not mean all things are permissible, rape murder ect. It's not a black and white issue like that . (1) god with objective morality (2) Anything goes. humanity and society's as a whole can and do agree on a vast array of moral issues that have wellbeing at the heart. These are reflected in our laws murder rape theft ect are standard throughout societies (even secular ) Of course scenarios can be envisaged were things are not clear cut which is why we have sub groups within a crime so to speak (involuntary manslaughter ect) were we recognize things as wrong but attempt to take mitigating circumstances into account. I think of it this way I suppose , imagine a big long measuring stick with graduations marked along its length, the left end representing the worst possible human wellbeing or misery you can think of ( maximum suffering, pain unhappiness ill health, ect ) at the other end of this measuring stick we have the best possible world we can imagine with ( maximum pleasure happiness health joy ect ) When making laws or assessing a moral situation we judge and attempt to get our actions or responses as far to right as we possible can for each situation. This is our "reference point " we use to assess moral scenarios. An action that has no wellbeing implications one way or another would be neutral and so in the middle. Do we all agree about exactly were specific things are positioned on our imaginary stick , NO but we can get pretty close regardless of religion or lack of. It's not perfect but in reality it's the best system we've got, and it's what legal systems around the world use as a basis. The theistic method of judging morality is very similar except they have what they think their god hates most at one end of their imaginary morality measuring stick and what he likes most or most desires of us at the other, with things that god would regard as neutral in the middle This measuring stick would receive much less agreement on how far left or right things are, not just between athiests and the religious but among theists In general, not in regard of wellbeing issues, were they would be very close to the secular positions, but because of different perceptions of SIN and thus be much more subjective. Because each different religion or even denomination would have A DIFFERENT SUBJECTIVE OPINION OF GODS MORALS at the end of their particular stick to refer to on moral issues. That often contradict and conflict with each other. Morality is subjective, we set the rules HOWEVER that does NOT mean we cannot set objective rules about morality. Let me draw an analogy, in the game of chess there are no OBJECTIVE RULES laid down by a god. They are arbitrary man made, however once we all come to an agreement about which rules we want to implement and adhere to it then becomes posible to objectively declare a move as illegal within the framework of agreed upon rules. The same concept applies with morality, Wellbeing becomes our reference point when judging a moral situation and societies get pretty close to agreement on what's moral based upon wellbeing issues . As previously stated it is only with regards to issues about Sin ( transgression of subjective gods rules) that disagreement occurs. Is it perfect, no but it's by far the best option we have . Muslims would regard you as immoral for not facing mecca and praying 5 times a day, are they wrong and if so why ? or is it only *YOUR* SUBJECTIVE OPINION OF GOD that everyone should adhere to ??? Modern societies think that the gathering of sticks on the sabbath is not nor ever was imoral and deserving of stoning to death have we got it wrong and why ?? You see personaly I could never find a context were the OWNING and beating of slaves was acceptable as long as they dont die for a day or 2 . No matter If someone asserts that their specific subjective god thinks it is.🤔 Religious morality is not really a system at all , but rather a series of thou shalts and thou sharn'ts. predicated upon the assertion that a subjective god is the objective reference for morality. If we dont know our personal gods wishes on the specific moral situation we have to fall back to our own opinion when assessing situations or actions. sorry garbage explanation, and to long but my best attempt .

It is actually the burden of you that are theists to convince them of such unsubstantiated claims. Wouldn't you agree?