As a Pentecostal I feel like I just met a long lost brother. I can relate to so much of what Dr. Alvarez was saying about being a Pentecostal pulled towards sacraments and liturgy but not feeling led to leave Pentecostalism either. I hope this movement continues to grow.

Gospel Simplicity, thank you so much for this interview! I had seen Dr. Alvarez’s book, but was a bit hesitant to pick it up given some of the craziness I saw in my Pentecostal upbringing. (A Latino congregation in the COG- Cleveland, TN) He did not disappoint, however! Interview was scholarly, ecumenical, and stepped in the great tradition. Despite being considering myself Anglican, I still regularly help at my Pentecostal home church. I will be sharing this video with several people there who I know are yearning for the great tradition.

Sou pastor pentecostal (Assembleia de Deus) no Brasil e esse episódio me deixou extremamente feliz. A qualidade de suas perguntas, somadas às respostas acuradas e banhadas de experiências do Dr. Alvarez, deixou essa conversa simplesmente incrível. Obrigado pelo seu trabalho, Austin!

His video with Fr. Timothy Cremeens was also fantastic. Coming from a Charismatic background and growing in a more reformed setting, I do really appreciate my pentecostal and eastern orthodox brothers/sisters who are willing to acknowledge the presence of Christ among us.

Speaking with Bishop Alvarez this evening and really enjoyed your conversation here!

I feel move to share some quick responses to you both from the heart of one midde aged (cradle) Orthodox Christian. It gives me joy to hear you two share and explore the topic of belonging to Christ's Church, his Mystical Body, as two people who are growing in love and service to our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ. I am very grateful for your work and witness to Him, and for your gifts of intellectual curiosity and communication and leadership. I have had minimal first hand experience with charismatic Pentecostal worship.I was a teenager in the late 70's visiting a friend's church, I recognized the sincerity and heartfelt faith in the Lord in the people there. It was like jazz improv, and a saxaphone was present. It was emotional and exuberant, somewhat exciting and there was also emotional pain being released. We exchanged friendly words afterward that felt good to me. I also attended their bible study several times and found it helpful to a point. At a certain point, after about 4 visits, I understood that their interpretation of scripture was significantly different from that of my priest and Orthodox tradition, although I was quite naive in matters of theology. I did believe, from what I had gleaned from my Church, that where there is agape love, there is Christ, there is God. And I knew that agape is not merely emotional but is made manifest in works of sacrificial service, in action. I was blessed to experience such active love within my Greek Orthodox immigrant community, especially from the older generation, and had a felt sense of God's presence in worship in the Divine liturgy. However, most of the prayers we did were in Greek which I largely didn't understand, and most of my fellow Orthodox were unlearned theologically and scripturally. Also, most of the sermons, though encouraging, were simplistic and not very educational or particularly inspiring. I did feel the love and goodness the faithful and of the priests, in their eyes, hugs, smiles, encouraging words, and heartful presence in communal activities, but the Christ-centeredness of it all was often left implicit in a wider culture of pluralism and challenges. My developing intellectual curiosity about the faith drew me to some Western Christian services and Bible studies, hence the visit to my friend's Pentecostal church. My junior high Sunday School class also visited several Western Christian worship services. One that I have fond memoies of was our visit to a Black church. I remember the kindness, warm words and smiles from the grandmothers and grandfathers who welcomed us. We probably should have been brought to visit not only Western Christian but also other Orthodox Churches, Russian and Arab ones, because we had no relationships with them. The Russian ROCOR Orthodox Church was just a bit farther down on our same street and they may as well have been in Russia as far as we knew them. We had no personal knowledge of each other. Their culture was very different from ours. They had escaped Communism, and were traumatized by that and fairly suspicious. Many of our Greek elders had come from parts of modern Turkey were they had been expelled from their homelands, and they were also guarded. Ethnic culture, language, calendar and differing perspectives on ecumenical dialogue separated us from our fellow Orthodox, in addition to being busy with survival and adaption to American ways. Many of us identified more with the Greek cultural aspect than with the Orthodox theological tradition, although Hellenic culture was permeated with Orthodox Christian faith in its traditions and ethos. Still, we needed more. We needed clear teaching in the faith, in the scriptures, in metanoioa and in the practical practices of prayer, scripture reading, confession, spiritual reading, etc. to help us experience Christ more personally and consciously in our lives. There was a Greek American priest back then, Eusebious Stephanou, who had become a Charismatic who spoke in tongues, while remaining an Orthodox priest, although utlimately margianal. Most clergy didn't know what to make of that, or even have much to say about it. It was pointed out to us that the gift of tongues at Pentecost was not a visceral outpouring of unintelligable vocalizations so much as an actual communication of foreign languages and dialects that were being spoken in Jerusalem at the time. So I was dubious of it, though open-minded when I witnessed such things at my friend's Pentecostal church as a teen. What mattered to me more then, and still today, was the experience of agape love. Of course, such love was lacking at times among myincreasingly assimilated and secularized fellow Greek Orthodox. I attribute that to our lack of catechitical and spiritual formation in the faith ,not to any defecit in Orthodoxy. Our minds needed to be formed in discipleship to Christ. Fortunately, more English began to be used in worship, more spiritual books began to be published in English, and itinerant teachers (Fr. Thomas Hopko, Bishop Kallistos Ware, etc) began to make the rounds and visit, and give presentations that were tape recoreded and distributed, educating us in Orthodox thought. Gradually, Protestants began to convert to Orthodoxy, and were adopted into our Greek communities, bringing valuable gifts with them from their Western Christian formation. Of course, we were continually confronted (sometimes harrased) by bold (sometimes obnoxious) evangelisticals telling us we were not Christian (and therefore hell-bound) unless we got "born again" as "proven" by the "gift of tongues." They were mostly politely sent on their way, along with the Watchtower proselytes and Latter Day Saints. Others, like Billy Graham, were regarded more postively. Our priest took a group of us once to hear Billy Graham speak, although I missed that one. I'd say we were eccesiologically/spiritually open-minded to and appreciative of Christian teachings coming from Western Christians that seemed to jive with scripture and Orthodoxy, but skeptical and closeminded to interpretations and teachings that seemed very different. Similarly, we were culturally insular in our ethnic community but usually positively disposed toward other mainstream and non-mainstream ethnic groups though we generally felt ourselves to be different. Many of us didn't think we should intermix even on the basis of shared Christian faith, a mistake but perhaps understandable. Many decades have passed since then and I continue to be grateful for genuine agape love wherever I experience it, from people of any religious or non-religious conviction. My Orthodox faith teaches me that God is agape love and wherever there is real love Christ is there. His plan for the salvation of all is a great mystery. It is not for me to judge, nor is it the Orthodox teaching that non-Orthodox or non-Christians will not be saved in the end. My task is to deny myself, take up my cross and follow him in the way of agape love. In recent decades I have becomre much more acquainted with the spiritual depths of the Orthodox way, particular in the lives of saints. I believe that i have encountered more than one. When you meet a living saint, scripture and Orthodox theology come to life. It's much more than intellectual. And when you read of the experiences of a Saint Paisios ora Saint Porphyrios, and learn of the countless miracles of grace that God worked through their prayers, it kind of puts to rest questions about the "power of the Spirit". I no longer wonder if "speaking in tongues" in that visceral vocalizing way of the Pentecostals is a "sign of the Spirit" or if it is more like an emotional catharsis. It doesn't really interest me. What does interest me is knowing Christ the way the saints have known him. For that, I want to be fully in the Orthodox way. This doesn't mean cultural uniformity. Cultural diversity is part of the Orthodox way. Spiritual diversity is another matter. Perhaps it would be useful to further this dialogue on spiritual vs cultural diversity in Orthodoxy with these three men: Klaus Kenneth, Fr. Turbo Qualls, and Bishop Themistocles of Nikopolis (a Greek-Australian missionary Bishop to the poor in Sierra Leone).

Interesting interview. I don't understand however the insistence on making his own church in a sense. He's been led to find that the oldest denominations got it correct regarding the Eucharist, reverence, tradition, so he's started incorporating them into his church. I was hoping he would explain more (or better for me) what opposition he has to Catholic/Orthodox and why refuses to join with them and maintains a separation. he said he doesn't want to leave his tradition, but Pentecostal isn't really a long tradition and he's now replacing some aspects of his tradition for the Catholic/Orthodox ones, so it seems he now has a mixture instead. On a side note if someone doesn't like the Roman rite, there are other rites like Greek, Byzantine, etc. I hope the nuance in my comment comes thru since it's too short to really elaborate. Edit: He did say if God tell me - I'll change. So he's not absolutely rejecting and is still open to what God wants. I will pray he finds wherever God wants to place him for Christ's purposes.

Looking forward to this. As someone who was raised in a Pentecostal setting and later discovered the Sacraments (in an Anglican setting), this makes me a bit uneasy in a way I can’t quite describe 😅 Looking forward to listening to and learning from this.

I admire his efforts, but you can't just decide you have the eucharist. You can't will yourself into apostolic succession. He has a sincere desire towards Christ, but he wants to do it on his terms. You can't take St. John's liturgy and ignroe his church.

This is a real question. I am not throwing stones here at all. Given how much Orthodox theology he accepts, on what basis does he consider his sacraments valid without apostolic succession?

We Christians have our differences, but God loves ALL of our worship and hears ALL of our prayers. Like the song says, “We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord….And they’ll know we are Christians by our love! “

I wonder how the Charismatic Orthodox Communion is distinct from or different in theology and practice than the Charismatic Episcopal Church.

His remarks on visible unity is really thought provoking. All this time, many of us always think of visible unity as something given from those hierarchs above down to us the laities. His approach of visible unity as in those happening in the grassroots between various denominations is really what we also need to aim for; the unity which is given by the Spirit among the Christians at various institutions.

The whole "convergence worship" idea is interesting. Being a charismatic (continuationist) Lutheran, I resonate with the three-streams idea.. Lutheranism in-and-of-itself straddling the line between "evangelical" and "catholic", the "Spirit-filled" piece is very easily tacked on to complete the trifecta -- and it most certainly has a manifestation in the way liturgy is conducted.

Very interesting conversation. This Orthodox thinks it is a good thing when Protestants adapt parts of our tradition! The more foundation we have in the church fathers, the better.

At min 11.20 he said that God was not calling him to be Anglican, Catholic or ORTHODOX. "Union of Charismatic Orthodox Churches" is just another protestant denomination. I am curious where are they getting the bishop's line of succession from ?

I myself is ortodox charismatic, study calvinisme and ends up to eastern ortodox yet grown in pentacostal charismatic that believes in transubstantion of the eucharist, im from new creation church btw

He has good intentions but unfortunately, he is a prime example of why our Church Fathers (whom he says he reads) say to never trust our own thoughts. To say "God hasn't led me to become Orthodox" is exactly that, trusting your own thoughts while justifying it under the umbrella of "the Holy Spirit lead me".

What are the patristic people he mentioned?

Dr Alvarez is so very sincere and educated. I really like his demeanor and respect for the Catholic Church and other denominations. But where he lost me is with the Communion. His hands are not consecrated and although ordained, the bread and wine remain unchanged. There's no transubstantiation happening.

I would love to see him read some of Fr Seraphim Rose

Why do you feel he needs to recover something that already exists and has existed for 2,000 years which is the Catholic Church????

Doing some of watching of videos I missed. So this one about a year ago. Very interesting. But I fear that if I were an afro-latino Pentecostal watching this and wanting to "sign up" so to speak - I go to the website linked and it does show Dr. Alvarez as "our Bishop" - but who is the "our"? Is it just his particular congregation - I think he mentioned it was in Rochester NY? Is there a network of affiliated churches - if so there is no list or Church locator as there often is in various movements? It leaves one with the feeling that this is largely centered around his vision but there aren't a lot of "concrete" places to go to join that vision.

For those of us who don't have a church like your's near us, where do you suggest we go? I've been considering going to a conservative, Anglican church near me. It seems like every Protestant church I've been a part of doesn't hold traditional views of the sacraments and only have communion once a month or even less. I'm trying to find a blend of tradition while upholding scripture as the ultimate authority to compare everything else to.

you should have father John Behr on the channel for an interview!

How do you pair modilism theology with trinitarian theology?

God bless you my guy

I wonder when the christians are ready to ponder the cosmic, creational aspects of the sacraments. St. Irenaeus of Lyons actually started it when we was writing about the uniting art of the Eucharist. Ultimately sacraments are a relationship between the eternal Logos, Son of God and the created universe. The Sacraments are the joint points that make these two one. The Sacraments are happening out there without the organizational church. So, a person can experience them when encountering living God in Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit.

Thank you, Dr. Alvarez! I particularly appreciated what you said about conversionism - it's pretty one-sided, and the casual, almost prideful comments should stop. Your thoughts on ecumenism were also enlightening.

John Chrysos-os-tom's Liturgy.

I tried to listen with an open mind and heart, but I honestly could not understand. How can any belief be defined as truth or coming from the Holy Spirit if it is always changing? Does God change? If it is our understanding of God that changes, where does this "new" understanding come from? In the Bible Jesus himself gives us the new understanding of God, but how can we be sure that it is the Holy Spirit leading us to worship in a different way? The only journey in our lives should be toward union with God's will and this does not need to lead to new forms of worship.

Excellent. This is a direction I think the Spirit is pointing is to. Thank-you both.

I admire your desire to recover great traditions and true historic spirituality, but I ask why you don't accept it all. I admit I am biased as a cradle Orthodox. I recognize that I am standing in the shoulders of giants. I wouldn't even consider innovation. Our responsibility is preservation for the next generation what the Apostles gave us 2000 years ago. However, I do see you as a brother in Christ, and who am I to judge how you practice your faith. Let the Holy Spirit continue to guide you. May God Bless your ministry.

Thank you, Lord, for your Body, the Body of Christ, that is, the Church that you are building upon the rock of faith that you are the Christ.

Catholic charismatics practice forms of Pentecostalism that embrace the belief that individuals can receive gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I was influenced by the convergence of the streams movement in the late 1990s to early 2000s. I eventually become Eastern Orthodox some years later.

He wants to be Catholic I Invited him to go to Daly Mass and Adoration The importance of praying for Priest No Priest No Eucharist

So basically Historic Wesleyanism? Pentecostalism rediscovering the catholic tradition is wonderful, and there really are roots there: Methodist-Anglicanism is what this looks like.

So confused right now 😵‍💫

In fact, Hesychazm and ecstatic prayer in tongues are not essentially different from each other, only outward forms. : )

You could have asked him some tough questions, like why he picks and chooses with the church fathers

Sounds like early montanism, in the best way, like Tertullian.

Symeon the New Theologian has nothing to do with so called Christians speaking in gibberish. In fact Symeon experienced a visitation from his deceased Spiritual father, which Emilio would no doubt reject.

It was sad to see Pentecostals have an anointing service with oil and in the middle of it stress that the oil doesn't mean anything. So much of the Pentecostal services I attend always include some subtle anti Catholic clarification. Ie god hates religion nonsense, irreverence/uncertainty to communion (presented as a "cheers" with a cowboy hat on), clarifications on oil, rejection of a sacred space on the stage and use of non Christian terms like auditorium and "service" and aversion to appearing Catholic in pose, shyness of a crucifix, the mocking of the sign of the cross is amazing to me given the OT Tau/tav. It's far too focused / thinking about what it's not. The avoidance of silence, etc Which really feels unhealthy. Having said all that while it's really a poor experience to me in comparison to a Mass, many people love it a lot and simply can't comprehend that the mass can be worthwhile.

1. I don't drink coffee 2. If I did, I certainly would spend $5 on Starbucks 🤭

The Orthodox are re-discovering the Spirit? 🤣

Practically everything he is saying is subjective, which Truth is not.

It’s nice they are concerned about Christian history and tradition. There communion is still bread and wine, no transubstantiation there but they’re are trying which is good. The Sacraments were given to Gods Church which is Catholic. Only the Catholics and Orthodox have valid Sacraments. Not saying this to be rude or a jerk but if there’s going to be reunification of Christianity there needs to be an understanding of where it would need to lead to down the road to be unified as Christ said we are to be one. Otherwise we will remain divided and nothing will change. And to be unified as one would be to bring there traditions into the Catholic Church and have agreement on actual theology which is sorely lacking in Protestant Churches who are extremely divided over major issues And he’s right about Charismatic Christianity being brought more into Catholicism which is good as well! Still not really sold on the speaking in tongues though but different discussion. I’ve heard it before and my bs detector went off. Speaking gibberish not some dead language

Come home, brother. God is calling you to the one true Orthodox faith. Let go of your baggage (academic, cultural, racial, or otherwise).

🚫 From skittles Fordham to convergence “Christianity” 🚫

Do not be deceived. This is not orthodoxy. Go to a real Eastern Orthodox Church and you will experience real historical Christianity. This man just didn’t want to give up his man made traditions so he combined his man made traditions with the Holy tradition. That is wrong. The councils forbade that. DO NOT BE DECIEVED!

Completely unsurprising (to us Orthodox Christians) to see that this gentleman was educated at Fordham University. The stereotype continues to ring true.

The definition of Lukewarm. May the Lord have Mercy on you and not spit you out!

I am a Greek Orthodox, and the most outstanding liturgical scholar of the 20th century, Mikhail Skabalanovich, claims that the purpose of speaking in tongues in the first church, in addition to the preaching of the gospel, was also the purpose of an ecstatic prayer life.

A tradition is an old practice. Traditions in the orthodox and Catholic Churches date back to Judaism. In other words the liturgical format is also Jewish in its roots. Pentecostal is what maybe 100 years old. ?? That really doesn’t qualify as a tradition. Unless you are referring to the babbling done by heathen pagans that has orgies in Paul’s day when Paul said that all things should be done in order and if someone is speaking in tongues ..there should also be an interpreter. God is Not a God of disorder. Hmmm now who is the father of disorder. ?? Hmm

This sounds like madness. Lord have mercy, save them.

Nonsence

Pentecostal + Sacred Traditions = Early Church = Catholic

This is kinda creepy to me. I admire the yearning for Truth. But if you haven't got the lineage back to the apostles for ordination then you can not just "make" the bread turn to Jesus. Study the Catechism and join the Catholic Church, man! Go to Seminary and become a Priest.

ewww, Liverpool.

I’m sorry but this pastor is so lost. Too much study is making him go crazy. Stick to the Bible and what it says if lost try again.

A most impressive interview. Well, they have women clergy in leadership. Check one. Let's hope they affirm the gifts of gay believers, too. Perhaps i am just a bit too hopeful in this regard...

This whole thing of speaking in tongues as if the person is filled with the holy spirit is total nonsense. The bible teaches that there is no purpose in speaking in tongues unless there's someone to interpret. Otherwise it's just gibberish talk.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_Movement