Tomer out here doing his best to be the voice of reason while Richard lives in a bubble of the only viable interaction being board wipes and fogs.

Richard would defect in the prisoner's dilemma so fast.

I think Seth hit on it around 26:00 -- given the fact that this group plays little graveyard hate (by their own admission), and the ranking scale is "how likely am I to include this card in my decks", most of the cards inevitably fall to the bottom of the scale. Might have been better to structure the ranking as a relative measure - "if someone wanted to play graveyard hate and dedicate a slot or two in a deck to it, what are the best/worst cards to consider?". Food for thought.

Richard always playing the "I'll just kill you instead card" when his primary strategy is to let everyone else kill each other before he commits to the board. The best graveyard hate is the ones your opponent plays.

22:20 Seth’s not wrong. Bojuka bog really is just an mdfc. You play the back side as a tapped land often; but sometimes you use the spell. But you still get the land drop and it can be bounced to hand later.

Richard has gotten way too comfortable with no one playing combos lol. “Just wait for them to do their thing and wrath them. If they win on that turn hope you have the fog” 💀💀💀

Joey at Edhrec is sweating bullets.

I love how the podcast turns from somewhat serious discussions to crazyness and then back

You guys forgot about Unlicensed Hearse. I play it in my Shorikai Vehicles deck, but every time it's in play it always over performs. It's repeatable, instant speed, targeted graveyard hate that eventually nets you a huge body.

With Bajuka Bog it's like an MDFC. You play it as a tapped land on turn 1,2, or 3. Then later in the game instead of playing land number 8 it becomes a 0 mana uncounterable way to exile a yard loaded with reanimation targets. I think it's such an S tier card in mono black since why not have one swamp enter tapped when it can sometimes win the game against some decks

I find that incidental graveyard-hate cards are the best in Commander. Something that’s useful in any game, but can be used to hose the graveyard. Cards like Scavenging Ooze, Bojuka Bog, Dauthi Voidwalker, and others. If I need to blast graveyards, I can, but in other games they’re still good

Oh man, not enough love for lion sash. Instant speed graveyard hate attached to your best, evasive creature that turns into an enormous creature if there's a board wipe. Has won me so many games. I think it's first and foremost a counters card, and not an equipment/voltron/artifact card, though it works fine there, too. Repeatable and instant speed is just so good, even if it's just a combat trick and boardwipe protection with graveyard upside

I think almost all graveyard hate is inherently B. There's so much variety of graveyard hate you're best utilizing the graveyard hate that also furthers your game plan (e.g. Lion Sash in equipment decks).

This podcast is shocking. In my playgroup, we all run 1 to 3 graveyard hate cards in every deck. Also 1-3 targeted land destruction cards. I also run a fog or misdirection effect or two. When I watch the show, I often find myself wondering why people get away with lots of shenanigans (relatively speaking from my meta which has a lot of interaction) ... now it makes more sense! Clash on!

seth's blessed respite take almost killed this literal 4head podcast. love you guys

I've played Marchesa the Black Rose for nearly 4 years now... I despair the moment someone says "pregame action, put leyline of the void into play"

As a graveyard player, I don’t like this… I’m going to watch it but I’m not going to like it 😭😂

Blessed Respite is by far my favorite graveyard hate. Instant speed, 2 mana, stops thassa and the ilk, saves from alpha strikes and combos. Fog meta babbbyyy

How does Crim not play Deathrite Shaman? You hit someone with a Sword of Body and Mind, mill ten cards from their deck, and then periodically exile them! That sounds like the periodic torture that Crim loves!

I put Bojuka Bog in just about every black deck because I think the opportunity cost is very low, especially on a budget where you’re running a few tap lands anyway, but I can count on one hand the times I have seen it matter in a game compared to the countless turn 3 or 4 exile an empty graveyard bojuka bogs I have seen. I haven’t really thought about scavenger grounds but I think you’re right that it’s better

I can’t believe they didn’t mention Endurance I love that card in creature decks

25:05 maybe I'm biased because I dropped a Bog on a Necusar turbo wheel/mill deck when he had two thirds of his deck and *all* of his win conditions in his yard. Dude ran 11 counters and wouldn't let anything threatening stick. Top decked Bog and windmill slammed it on the board. He had two counters in hand and couldn't do shit against a land drop. He immediately scooped and left without a word in a cold fury. 10/10 always hold Bog

@40:39 I didn't realize Tomer's face could contort like that, the deathrite shaman fight is real!!

I appreciate that Richard is attempting to grade these as a 'normal person' but that distance is just too great.

I've played Blessed Respite without expecting much of the card, and after playing 30 games or so with it, the card actually plays really well. Saved me a bunch of time, it seems there's always a good usage for this card. At least in a mostly-combat metagame.

The lands are S tier for me. I put Bojuka Bog and Scavenger Grounds in every deck, and might start experimenting with Pit of Offerings in 3+ color decks Edit: Shout-out to Faerie Macabre. It's only really playable if your deck cares about the creature types or the fact that it flies, but in those decks, it's a free instant speed exile two from the bin.

Richard and Crim often have odd hot takes but god damn they are right about Deathrite Shaman in 99. 60 card format its amazing. It is only really playable in self mill commanders so a very specific C as a final grade makes sense

Crim and Richard out here with some bizarro world takes today

You missed 3 pieces of graveyard hate that I might have talked about: Stonecloaker in a Chulane deck, Agent of Erebos in enchantress, and Froghemoth in a Chishiro deck.

After watching most of this video I am getting the impression that Richard doesn't play against graveyard/re-animator decks too often. Probably falls into his "let the other players deal with it" thing like target removal.

Szats will, Callous bloodmage, tranquil frillback?? i feel like they missed some of the best graveyard removal when they are modal and have incidental graveyard exile upside

Here are three black graveyard hate cards that may not be the best ones to play, but that I always love playing with. Callous bloodmage, szat's will and author of shadows.

its such a strong archetype that you cant be allowed to be upset over hate towards the deck, artifact and enchantment decks are the same thing, theyre all so stupidly strong and have so much support that you cant be upset over people playing a leyline of the void or a vandal blast

Richard doesn't play graveyard hate because it doesn't forward his game plan. Crim plays graveyard hate to troll graveyard decks. Seth plays graveyard hate when it's stapled onto something more useful. Tomer's the responsible one, but him being responsible means that the others are slacking. I'd love to see Tomer jam a few graveyard decks in a row just to get the point across.

Crop rotation is low-key the best graveyard hate. Its gets Bog at instant speed and is a fog at instant speed (glacial chasm). I recall winning a game bojuka bogging a player who was trying to animate dead world-gorger.

I do like blessed respite in my muldrotha deck. Gravehate, fog and the illusion of saving my cards from an exile plus the random force shuffle someone who just tutored, all in one card. I like that a lot. 🤔

I think Tomer and Seth are speaking from reality here with regards to casual EDH, highlighting how synergy with a deck's strategy is important. If I had to play in a meta where any and all non-fetchable taplands were utterly unplayable, I'd have probably dropped the game a long time ago. And look, I get it, in CEDH every last advantage is mined and it's as such a 500-card format, but why is that mentality being grafted onto non-competitive? Like, the cost of removing the Jarad/Meren player's graveyard... is one land coming into play tapped? Oh, sorry, Jarad/Meren are probably unplayable these days, so maybe that's a bad example. Richard and Crim seem to believe that a casual group is one in which each opening hand contains some combination of mana crypt, mana vault, force of will, force of negation, fierce guardianship, vampiric tutor, and each deck is a turn-3 infinite engine out of the command zone. I mean, yes, in a format where you have about 2 slots left in the deck after you fit all the staples in, sure, there's no room for any of these.

I think the clash doesn't get how to use wheels. In the same way you don't just play a wrath when you have 20 creatures and everyone else has one, you need to know when to drop a wheel. Typically when your opponents have a lot of cards and you don't have many. Not only do you net more cards but you disrupt their game plan. When played right you can get make it an effective 3, 4, 5, even 6 or 7 for 1. Especially if you drop it right after an opponent has drawn a bunch of cards with Sea Gate or Blue Sun's style cards.

One of my favorite options for white is a little known Mercadian Masques rare called Honor the Fallen. It only costs 1W and it removes all creatures from all graveyards at instant speed and you gain 1 life for each creature removed.

God crim is sooooo funny 😂. Sometimes his repetitive decks are a little annoying but he takes so much joy in this game it's infectious.

Tomer, how do you Rakdos Charm kill a player that attacks after an Akroma's Will when Akroma's Will gives the creatures lifelink 😅 (But yeah, it's a great card)

Angel of Finality and Grey Host Reinforcements are evasive threats that exile a graveyard on ETB, making them good in blink decks and decent in their respective typal decks. The low floor on Grey Host makes it the weaker card for sure, but in Magical Christmasland it can get big enough for the ward 3 to matter.

Richard: Playing Graveyard hate make opponents kill you Also Richard: If you play Graveyard decks, I will just kill you Actually Richard: I play Loyal Companion and pass the turn

Not even a mention to Unlicensed Hearse 😢 also Deathrite Shaman is crept out as a worse Armored Scrapgorger, which I would consider an S

Watching seth during the Bojuka bog discussion was great

I think a lot of these type of hate cards are not worth it for 2 big reason. Some of these like Rest in Peace paint a target on the caster where either it or you need to be removed by someone and the more effective the hate is, the more likely to be a target you are. and if you're stopping multiple people you're more likely to get answered with no gain. The less effective, but more versatile cards that don't do anything outside of hate and don't directly advance your board position are simply not worth playing over other card slots since you won't run into that every game and no one is sideboarding in EDH. Besides that those tend to act similarly to one shot removal where you '1 for 1'ing is just not good in EDH. Cards like Farewell and Deathrite Shaman that can advance your board while providing grave removal are the strongest in most decks provided you want the other things the cards do. Next would probably be player removal to get rid of the overly powerful recursion player. Outside of that playing the strongest hate cards in some form of hate bears is probably the best option provided you understand that you or anything you're playing is likely to get removed for angering players, a la Crim.

I run Scavenger Grounds in all of my decks. The opportunity cost is minimal, and you have the ability to hold it up for instant speed. It does have the cost of needing to hold up the mana, but any graveyard deck ALWAYS needs to be aware of the Scavenger Grounds that can bop them, and dealing with lands is such a difficult thing for most decks, so it's much harder for the GY deck to clear it before popping off.

I play a mini white sun titan styled deck and remorseful cleric does crazy work.

9:54 I fully agree. I have at least 3 pieces of graveyard recursion in every deck

Crim is Right, the Snub on Kaya's Guile is absolutely insane, that card is a HOUSE, you resolve it and you immediately change the situation at the table.

The best Graveyard hate is Titania’s Command. It can ramp pump or make blockers and is never dead. If you need to exile multiple graves it can search up bog. If you need to reuse it, search up mystic Sanctuary. You also gain life to stabilize.

Did they miss Ground Seal? It is my personal favorite, and one of the many ways in which green steals things from other colors.

Did Unlicensed Hearse get mentioned? I definitely run plenty of fetches if i include it, but Turn 1 Deathrite is still not a complete disappointment if i don't have a fetch - it has summoning sickness anyway, and *needs* to go out early to prepare to interact. Given the commanders at the table (how important it seems to have early interaction), can determine if opening deathrite needs to get shipped or not. The tiny group-slug on an innocent-looking 1/2 adds up; even if you're not removing a flashback spell (or mana-generator), people will be farseek'ing and casting incidental spells from turn 2 on with fair regularity, usually providing a target every single turn cycle. Don't always have an unused {B}, but when there is one, there is likely a target.

Dang the DRS hate! This card is so good! It's an all-star in my Muldrotha deck. Life gain, drain and mana? It's amazing

Tomer has me on board with his RIP argument. I've lost many games to people assuming the grave deck was out of the game while they just sculpted a hand to dredge their grave again after blowing up my rest in peace. In that case all it does is stall for time and keep me from benefitting from death triggers.

Shout out to Titania's Command for modal graveyard removal. Remove someone's entire graveyard to gain life = to cards removed. Also tutor out any two lands... like Bojuka Bog >.>

The conversation around death right shaman is crazy. Some people clearly don't value flexible slots. The ability to hate the graveyard is what makes it acceptable that the mana dork side isn't always on. It shouldn't do all things amazingly, it's flexible. It's handy in multiple situations, which is why you value it.

I have literally never had a useful Bojuka Bog, it's always in my opening hand, or I don't see it. XD

You guys missed BIG TIME on 2 amazing graveyard cards. Callous Bloodmage, and Canoptek Swarm. Callous is super flexible, can really come in clutch, either digging, putting blockers, or outright nuking a yard. Thats a lot of flexibility for a 2/1 at 3. Canoptek is a wincon on itself, for 4, you aren't just taking out a yard, you can get a huge army out of it. The best thing about it, is that it cares about stuff that stays in there much longer than creatures, making it more probable to actually trigger the tokens.

I like Szat's Will. Its obv. not super strong, but it fits the meta that I play in very nicely.

My biggest take away from this is that if you can't slot in the graveyard hate to have synergy with your decks gameplan its probably not worth playing on its own merits. However I do think that playing responsible magic is a thing that will help out more pods than hurt it.

Seth is 100% right in the Leyline/RIP discussion. Losing that slot in your deck to maybe ruin a graveyard deck is too closely to me. It’s kinda the same mentality as counterspells: don’t use your counters to stop the enemy’s progress, use them to protect your own win.

I play monowhite and I love me some remorseful cleric. An evasive creature that hoses graves at instant speed and can easily be gotten back with the 3 mana or less recursion so common in monowhite.

My experience is that Bojuka Bog is a trap card in Mono Black. It makes your Cabal Coffers and Cabal Stronghold worse way more often than exiling cards that actually matters. It also enters tapped.

Richard with the galaxy brain thought process in regards to graveyard hate. the smart move is to politic your opponents into using theirs when it's convenient for you. Nautilod ship is LEGIT though. My Breya Vehicles deck loves it.

42:35 😂 Bojuka Bog is almost always an early turn, do nothing tapped land that pretends to be hate. I've never seen that mana rock before. Nice new card. I love cards like relic because they can sit out on the field waiting for the right time but they also can bring hate onto you depending on who you're playing against.

I love Richard’s takes. So crazy. So based. He invokes the wrath of the comment section every time. Atp I think he over-exaggerates to generate hate comments on the episodes.

Did I miss it, or did you fail to mention the OG graveyard hate, Tormod’s Crypt? I think it’s a solid choice, especially in decks that care about having a lot of artifacts in play, artifact sacrifice, etc

I like armored scrapgorger. It's a mana dork that exiles a card from a graveyard whenever it becomes tapped.

I'm with Richard and Crim on Bojuka Bog, I even had a situation where it just proved me how not worth it is: I'm playing my new Ancient one deck, have 15 cards in my graveyard and i get Bojuka bogged. Next turn i proceed to put another 15 cards in my graveyard and kill them with Ancient One. I feel nowadays bojuka bog is not worth cause graveyard decks can just...do it again what they have been doing the whole game, which is fill their grave again, where a Lantern would've prevented me or forced me to deal with it before killing someone

Some grave hate can be versatile in niche situations. I have a few pieces of mass hate in my Syr Konrad deck not only in case I play against another graveyard dependent deck, but also because I might get an opportunity to kill everyone with commander damage or infect if they aren't prepared. Drawing a random piece of grave hate in the late game is never a dead draw in that deck. Because of stuff like that, I think pieces of grave hate that can be manipulated to have different or extra beneficial effects for yourself should be rated higher.

Unfortunately couldn't find you guys talking about this episode on Twitter to comment: you guys didn't mention Lantern Of The Lost. in decks where i'm not using my own graveyard it's an upgrade over Soul-Guide Lantern. One or the other plus Bojuka Bog or Scavenger Grounds is my usual suite.

Richard saying Bojuka Bog is ok in green decks because you have crop rotation, but completely ignoring that black has the best unrestricted tutors in the game is killing me. I've absolutely tutored up my Bog with a Demonic Tutor before to stop the graveyard player.

Running animate deads etc. as graveyard hate in ur recursion slot is kinda legit - and might leave you with st really good on the board as well.

Card: costs 0 mana, is a 12/12 uncounterable changeling with hexproof, haste, trample and indestructible. When it deals combate damage, draw 10 cards. Richard: best i can give you is B.

Grafdigger's Cage seems like cascade/discover hate more than anything which... is kinda more relevant than ever? As graveyard hate whatever but it's gotta be a staple of answering the increasing number of freebies from the library?

I literally cant believe you guys didn't mention the most overlooked card from Phyrexia All be one. Armored Scrapgorger, i run it in every single multicoloured green deck i have. Relevant early blocker, continous hate that draws removal, instantspeed graveyard pickoff. Can be buffed and still removes relevant graveyard cards WHILE attacking. I know some here have a giant hate for manadorks, but when manadorks have this much side-upside, im up for it. Even if its overcosted.

Seth hit it right on the nose with regards to bojuka bog. Personally I think lands should not be included in this list because their primary function is being a land with occasional upside of hating on the graveyard. If bojuka bog was instead an MDFC for one swamp that nuked a graveyard at sorcery speed, the conversation would be extremely different. Lands should not take up slots when it comes to ramp, card draw, removal, etc because their primary function needs to be being a land for your land drops when you need it. When you flood out, great now they turn into decent effects. Kind of confused on crim and Richard’s take on this one, seeing how high they’ve been on MDFCs in the past.

Does Seth understand how singleton formats work? You should 100% have silver bullets for decks and cut pet cards for them. No one cares about graveyard hate replacing itself if you die before you get the card. "I'll just do further my game plan above stopping yours" is how you lose games to solitaire decks that go faster.

Can’t believe I am going to say this but… Tomer is right on Deathrite . In graveyard decks or in high power metas Deathrite is gas! I killed a player this week with craterhoof on the stack to save the table by exiling the worldly tutor from the graveyard with Deathrite Shaman. Also made me atleast five mana that game. No way is that card c tier or below, but it’s situational so not S tier by any means.

As a certified graveyard pervert™, I've been playing commander for a decade and almost all my decks are graveyard decks to various degrees, I'll throw in some thoughts: 1. Richard/Crim is absolutely right about bajuka bog, i can count the number of times I've been genuinely got by it on one hand from a decade of games. 2. Ashiok is absolutely brutal 3. Lion Sash/Scavenging Ooze are also both very backbreaking, being able to only exile 1/2 things a turn doesn't seem like much but can completely derail a turn. 4. Deathrite Shaman is good not great, I think Toner had it correctly graded at a B, play it in high power pods where fetches are plenty because first and foremost it's a mana dork with occasional gy hate upside.

I love coming here from the one-drop podcast where Crim was an outlier for rating Deathrite Shaman above everyone else (specifically because he thought it was solid graveyard hate) to this one where he's way below everyone else on the same card. Really changed from a year ago!

Classic Richard: "Well in my opinion all of these cards suck because they don't help my primary game plan. I refuse to play interaction and rely on my opponent's to deal with every problem."

I put soul-guide lantern in every deck. No graveyard players, it will usually hit a fetch land and replace itself. Against graveyards it is an asymmetric wipe.

I found out yesterday that tokens still cause "dies" triggers with a Leyline of the Void out, since they aren't cards. Very weird. Also, a bit surprised no-one mentioned the ETB creature-based hate like Canoptek Scarab Swarm or Callous Bloodmage. Those are my go-to answers.

will say since wasnt mentioned unintentionally great "graveyard hate" is Wheel in sun and moon, you play it for yourself 90% of the time, then that other 10% you like enchant the graveyard deck and watch them look sad as they sccramble to find enchantment removal

If you’re a 10 fetch playing graveyard deck, and your opponents run 4 fetch lands each, the chances of at least one fetch land being drawn by the last player in rotations’ turn 2 is 88.438%, given no other cards are drawn. Being most of a mana dork with incidental, instant speed life gain and targeted yard hate should net deathrite no less than a C, but it’s lack of ability to target some of the most dangerous card types and the fact it can only remove one card at a time keeps it out of A. There is an argument to B, but I think it’s low enough impact that C is more apt.

6:50 I was playing Muldrotha when someone landed a Rest in Peace on turn 2. I wasn’t salty, but I was very bored. If you’re playing a graveyard deck, expect someone to try to stop you.

Callous Bloodmage? Tranquil Frillback? Kutzil's Flanker?

I play alot of graveyard decks and the instant speed effects like lion sash and scooze are often the most oppressive. The fact is that any one time exile all cards is much more manageable to deal with and rebuild from than sniping the peices that actually matter in responce to abilites. An untapped agathas soul couldron means i never get to start my gameplan untill it is gone, and a soulguide lantern means i need to hit a breakimg point and force them to use it when i have the tools to rebuild. A nihil spellbomb can be enough sometimes but if it used too early, I can rebuild. Used too late and I will have the tools to respond to the activation. Lion sash and scooze are backbreaking s tiers from the graveyard pov and i think that is what matters when considering these cards. Richards take of just kill them by devoting interaction slots to offense is exactly what i want as a graveyard player. People cutting thier graveyard interaction in hopes of going faster than me or outvalueing me are how i win games.

Unlicensed Hearse was missed and it's one of the best! It's a threat you can put in any deck which does repeatable, instant speed graveyard hate for 0 mana. It's also specifically targeted so you can easily make political deals with it.

Unlicensed Herse so good, S tier graveyard hate and it gets huge

Thanks for letting me know what to play around the most when piloting Kroxa And Kunoros

I’d just like to point out you can FLICKER BOJUKA BOG, bounce it to hand with a BounceLand, etc. BOJUKA Bog is the GOAT!

10:04 ding ding ding. While stuff like LotV or RiP do have an opportunity cost associated with them, and there may be more flexible pieces you can find that replace themselves or otherwise give you a consolation prize, calling these unplayable is a huge stretch. They will find at least one target, they will stop at least one instance of bullshit, they will orient at least one player around their removal for a few turns. While it would be nice for your stax and hate pieces to just fold someone on their own, the point is to break parity and push through your own wins. These further that goal, however inelegant you may find them.

Lion Sash has the additional benefit in an equipment deck that is both a backup creature and a piece of equipment. Finding the creature/equipment balance isn't always straightforward forward and being able to be either helps smooth out the mix.

Although the card is limited....Cemetery Illuminator is a fantastic card! Flyer - Yard Hate - Top Deck Help! Slow but worth

maybe I am abnormal, but when richard said that he was judging this from the "normal man" perspectiv i just thought "your perspective is as far away from mine most of the time as can be" xD but then again i build my decks to play magic, not to win, so there is a big discrepance in deck building priority

I like land-based graveyard hate most in black, then green, and somewhat in blue. Black has general tutors, and while you will rarely use them to get a land if you absolutely have to against the right match-up you can. Green has the best land tutors but you will only have many of these if it's part of your overall deck synergies (admittedly not too hard in green). Blue has Tolaria West, whose value goes up depending on what other powerful utility toolkit lands you may be playing.

Deathrite Shaman is good. It is not a card you play for graveyard hate - that is a possible benefit. It is also only good in specific decks. You can't just slot it in any deck and expect it to be better than other dorks, it requires synergy, or it requires you to be lucky with your opponents decks.