Greatsword versus Halberd

Рет қаралды 36,190

Ай бұрын

It's both one of the most annoying 'yeahbuts' and a very valid point about greatsword: what about polearms? We wanted to test this both in a 1v1 setting and in a group, and that's when something really cool happened.
#historical #fencing #hema #greatsword #montante #zweihander #halberd #spear

Пікірлер: 96

@Finlandiaperkele Ай бұрын

Nice acting from the halberd guy at the end

@Kurochana Ай бұрын

yeah was gonna comment too, that keeling over the bench was hilarious lmao

@VirtualFechtschule Ай бұрын

I mean, you need to signal somehow that you're out of a fight, or you're going to keep getting whacked. Might just as well make it dramatic. :D

@Xeonort Ай бұрын

⁠@@VirtualFechtschuleYou’re not foolin’ me silly sword man, I know I just watched a man die!

@Srymak 8 күн бұрын

"acting" bro went to jesus

@ericepperson8409 Ай бұрын

One of the most interesting conjectures I heard was from a video LindyBeige did a while back when he tested groups of spear users against groups of sword users. In groups, the spear users were much better, but if the fight came down to one on one, the sword users generally gained an advantage.

@dolsopolar Ай бұрын

spears win most of the time in that video. mostly because all of the fencers they used for the test are only similar with sword vs sword.

@Dovorans Ай бұрын

Conclusion: the best weapons are the friends we made along the way (with pointy stick)

@heylolp9 Ай бұрын

War in a nutshell for most of human history: I brought more friends with longer pointier sticks than you did, I win

@Miam_miam_la_gauffre Ай бұрын

Or Napalm

@MansMan42069 Ай бұрын

@@heylolp9 Napoleonic Wars: "I brought more friends with explosion-powered ball throwers than you did. Also they have pointy sticks at the end of them. I win."

@heylolp9 Ай бұрын

@@MansMan42069 America Today: AGM-114R9X Hellfire Because sometimes you just need to shoot a missile that deploys pointy sticks at Mach 5

@dirckthedork-knight1201 Ай бұрын

Makes sense why the manuals present the greatsword as an anti polearm weapon

@lildragon0 Ай бұрын

Conclusion: With armor, a greatsword user can take on 1 halberd and 1 sword.

@albinwennman1628 Ай бұрын

But what if they have armour as well?

@screamthesecond3946 Ай бұрын

unless the halberd has a blunt end

@mekingtiger9095 Ай бұрын

@@screamthesecond3946 The halberdier still needs a *good* clean swing from the blunt end to punch the armor really well. You have to remember that plated soldiers also often wore padding underneath their hard armor to mitigate the effects of blunt weapons.

@screamthesecond3946 Ай бұрын

@@mekingtiger9095 yeah that is true, but in the situation BOTH side would have the same kind of armor. The greatsword user will need to use half sword and resort to grappling to deal meaningful damage, opening them up to attacks from the other enemy.

@ossian1977 Ай бұрын

Love it. Also props to the last guy, he died so theatrically well, with the slow drop over the bench.

@balintkovacs4089 Ай бұрын

One tidbit of a thought for the end there (from an also greatsword user): since you have greater leverage than the sword users, you can keep repositioning yourself and them in a way so that you are outnumbered but not surrounded. One of the cases when maintaining blade contact can be beneficial is if you want to create an axis to move along of. Adding to that the aforementioned leverage you can also force your opponent to move into the direction you want them to. Including being forced between you and the polearm. I frequently spar with people outnumbering me - much more fun - and in those cases my first priority is to keep all enemies within my field of vision. Sometimes that means me 'giving up' the range advantage and moving close but not to attack, to more easily evade and sidestep.

@ShiningDarknes Ай бұрын

video or it didn't happen

@MasakanSolaris Ай бұрын

Honestly my biggest issues with these scenarios is that they seem to slant everything against the sword user just to prove a point, acting like this wouldn't be the case with a pole arm too, in fact its probably worse because it lacks the greatswords versatility. That said i so respect that you're one of lkke 3 youtubers who doesnt blindly go "Hur dur polearms is best!"

@VirtualFechtschule Ай бұрын

It's true that it takes a lot to be stacked against the greatsword, you're right. But I feel that that's also kind of my point. That said, as difficult as this scenario was for the greatsword, I also really agree that a polearm would do worse in it. I'm just interested in finding where the limits are of what Greatswords can realistically be expected to achieve, through both historical source study and sparring. :)

@Primalintent Ай бұрын

Unsurprisingly the polearm reigns supreme because most people don't practice very much so they see it as the be-all-end-all because it has a lower barrier to entry. In ruder terms you could say they're a bunch of scrubs.

@MasakanSolaris Ай бұрын

@@Primalintent That's honestly my take on it too. The polearm is so widespread and universally used throughout history, not because it's somehow better than other weapons, it's because you can become proficient in one in like a week.

@zibbitybibbitybop Ай бұрын

There's a good reason polearms dominated the battlefield, though: reach is king, and no dude with a greatsword was gonna waltz face first into a wall of pikes, even with plate armor on.

@VirtualFechtschule Ай бұрын

@@MasakanSolaris This is often said to be the case, but I'm skeptical. Halberds and pikes have a low skill floor to be used effectively, but honestly so do swords. All three weapons have high skill ceilings, so if you can get someone who's well trained to wield them it is an advantage. If I'd have one week to train a bunch of recruits for battle, I would probably get them as effective with greatsword as with polearms. What I would probably end up doing though is spend the first days on general combat training to get an idea of their abilities and afterwards give half of them pikes, halberds to another 40 percent and some greatswords to the rest. Finally, from day three onwards, the biggest part of training would be small and big unit training, rather than just personal skills training. 16th century pike blocks were all about combined weapons.

@cspahn3221 Ай бұрын

Oh I LOVE this

@s7ai Ай бұрын

Some thoughts on strategy: You'd probably have to charge the polearm guy as quickly as possible. That way you can either eliminate him first or at least try to get him between you and the other guys. Would that even work, or could the sword guys stab you because you're not constantly spinning in that moment? I'm no expert by any means, just someone who enjoys your great channel 👏

@VirtualFechtschule Ай бұрын

It's indeed what I was thinking, but I found the halberd could simply step back, meaning it took so long to get close to him that the people with swords would catch up and hit me in the back. Turning around to them got me nailed by the halberd

@PalleRasmussen Ай бұрын

That works in films or against totally unskilled opponents. Not otherwise.

@eduardocavalcanti4193 Ай бұрын

That is a good fight

@S.Gamedev-zc2wp Ай бұрын

Isn't great sword basically a polearm but with significantly bigger cutting edge ? I don't see why would it lose significantly if production costs are ignored

@connorwheatley5640 Ай бұрын

Yeah It's essentially a polearm shaped like a sword.

@olivere5497 Ай бұрын

The greatsword movements remind me of a sythe.

@Xynth25 Ай бұрын

I love the breadth of views on levelling and story when it comes to WoW, because some views act like a time capsule. The biggest one is people just wanting to be a person versus a hero in the story...Blizzard's change in that direction was as a response to the playerbase's desires to be recognized in game for previous accomplishments. For me personally, when it comes to new players and lore the player joining a 20 year old game has a responsibility to play some catchup. If it's important to understand the who and why, Blizzard should have a resource like datacards available for players to look at but it's on the player to care. You can't force someone just coming to play with friends to care, and I know I hate when a story tries to handhold me to make sure I learn something. I think a universal desire is for moment to moment pve gameplay to feel more rewarding, I just don't know where to set the sweetspot. What's your ideal difficulty to appeal to the pet battler and herb gatherer on one hand and the multi-CE players on the other? I'm on the latter hald of that question and I can want more interrupts, dispells, ground effects, and attacks needing to be defensived, but that would be a nightmare for other players. I don't have a good answer, myself.

@eduardocavalcanti4193 Ай бұрын

The greatsword is a spectular weapon but when she confronts a halberd, the fight is balanced right ?

@yuxian20 Ай бұрын

How well can that sparring halberd catch that foam greatsword? It seems to me that the ability to lock or snag the blade of the Greatsword is diminished by the sparring equipment. Just a thought

@christophertaylor9100 Ай бұрын

*he is not fighting off three opponents, as at least one is at all times hesitating

@firestorm117 Ай бұрын

The major glaring issue with the greatsword in that one on three scenario is the amount of stamina it takes to maintain that defensive range. Really in any scenario, moving around like that to keep your defense will burn through your stamina alot quicker than a traditional defensive stance.

@VirtualFechtschule Ай бұрын

The way I see it is this: the greatsword is one of the few weapons that can even effectively deal with being surrounded, and you use stamina to buy the time to solve that situation. In this example the greatsword moves sort of conservatively to keep the demo neat and clear. When you play the objective a bit more, you usually take out enough of the opponents in a short time to solve being surrounded.

@firestorm117 Ай бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule I mean in practice I can see that, but in wartime application I question the effectiveness of that strategy. Burning through stamina that quick on the battlefield is a major hinderance, and I'd rather switch to a long sword if you don't have backup on the way. A polearm could be equally effective if not more so at the range game, and you can compensate with a short sword for close range. A great sword like that would be better to permanently take out the horses of the mounted cavalry and would be more intimidating in an offensive charge.

@VirtualFechtschule Ай бұрын

@@firestorm117 from pretty extensive experience, I can say that a regular longsword or a polearm will not perform as well in this scenario. Battles are generally not hours of actual combat. If a clash lasted more than a few minutes, fatigue would pretty much knock out everyone in the frontline and to be honest when fighting that is actually a really long time. Being surrounded like this is not a situation you'll find yourself in for very long on a battlefield. When backup is at hand, you'll be fighting in less exhausting ways generally.

@sakonan4883 Ай бұрын

This is great because I heard that Zweihanders are more like polearms than swords and I can see why. Btw, for sparring, how does anyone judge whether you’ve made a grazing cut or not? I assume that everyone just stops when you make any kind of contact. But in real combat, you can always ignore a graze wound. I was thinking, maybe they should apply some easily washed off red paint on weapons to represent any cut.

@siraj_jr_ Ай бұрын

Think these guys are mostly trying to simulate unarmored combat, thats why even a graze from something like a halberd would put you out of a fight immediately.

@SyperDT Ай бұрын

Halberd was reallu good in group fights in Chivalry and Mordhau, got high on the scoreboard because of it.

@bryant7542 Ай бұрын

Halberd is the best weapon in Mordau

@gwynbleidd1917 Ай бұрын

Thank you for making these informative videos! I love hema

@stonerboi4202 Ай бұрын

If I got into hema I'd go with a war sword (great sword). Or a daneaux bc thier both versatile

@eduardocavalcanti4193 Ай бұрын

Maybe in brazil indigenous people i hope to see weapons like halberds and other two handed weapons in the diversification of brazilian fights cultures

@PastaSauce7 Ай бұрын

where can i get a good greatsword?

@redhood1184 Ай бұрын

Is it possible to actually take down all three or is it impossible period, if only the armor makes it possible then understood

@Matt_Alaric Ай бұрын

Once armour gets involved the greatsword becomes a very poor weapon since it can't reliably pierce or puncture it, while the halberd still remains able to pierce it and defeat it through blunt force. That was the big selling point of halberds - they could be effectively used in multiple scenarios.

@VirtualFechtschule Ай бұрын

Halberds do more against armour than a greatsword, true, but greatswords are perfectly capable of thrusting into weak spots. The same advantages for both apply here as well. At range the halberd can bring its weight to bear, while up close the greatsword is far better at finding openings.

@Matt_Alaric Ай бұрын

@VirtualFechtschule No, halberd are objectively better against armour. Its point is better suited to piercing and its hammer is better suited to dealing damage straight through the armour. There's a reason they were as popular as they were, and that's because they were "good enough" in almost every situation without specialising in any.

@samuelbishop1701 Ай бұрын

@@Matt_AlaricIt's not better suited to piercing. It's about equal to a hefty spear. Neither can poke holes in good plate. They both need a weaker area. Halberds are typically 7 feet. If the Greatsword user closes the distance he has the advantage half swording. The halberd may as well be thrown away at that point as its wrestling range and the pole becomes a hindrance. Armour piercing comes from the beak on the back (ehich requires a somewhat telegraphed strike that may be blocked or not), or the concusive force of the axe blade which has the same issue. Halberds in practise are a 50/50 weather it goes your way in one on one. In groups however, they basically always win.

@mekingtiger9095 Ай бұрын

Eeeh, Greatswords are not THAT behind in terms of anti-armor. Sure, they're not as great as more specialized bludgeons like halberds, but they still carry significant momentum to be half-decent for that. And they are better and more versatile at closer range, ehich is what armored fights most often lead to one way or another.

@VirtualFechtschule Ай бұрын

@@mekingtiger9095 Pretty much. A helmet only does so much against concussions, especially a simpler footsoldier's one, and 2.5 kg swung at it at speed might mean lights out as well. :P

@JustinShaedo Ай бұрын

A great sword does very little to armour. You can see it quite often in buhurt. A halberd will effectively end a person in armour.

@VirtualFechtschule Ай бұрын

While I love halberds, I don't thinking it's that simple. In Bohurt the weapons are super blunt and you're not allowed to thrust into openings, so you can't really draw any conclusions about actual historical fights from that. I've found it a bit easier to find weak spots with a greatsword than with a halberd for instance, and that checks with what fight books show. I would need to do loads of testing as to how effectively they would actually pierce mail and/or arming doublet, but for now I feel the point of effectiveness against armour is not yet possible to determine.

@AlgaeGaming Ай бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule that makes sense, a greatsword tip doesn't have hooks or an axe blade that make it hard to stab without getting blocked by something (and they make the tip heavier). I know pollaxes often had spikes on the bottom as well, at which point it is basically a better "half-sword" for armoured fighting at least. Did halberds ever have "queue" spikes, and/or could you try how fights would go if they did? I don't think its length should be a big problem, as even for pollaxes Le Jeu already says never to spin it by changing hands, but just changing stance (swapping lead and back foot).

@b.h.abbott-motley2427 2 күн бұрын

@@VirtualFechtschule Very few (if any) extant greatswords have narrow points suitable for thrusting through mail, while many extant halberds do. In theory, a greatsword could be effective against armor, but that doesn't appear to be how most of them were made.

@Catatonic419 Ай бұрын

in the first clip dude coulda evicted your knee cap right away. Would be a rude thing to do while sparing but in a duel You'd have lost in the first 5 seconds of the clip.

@jairosalinas6218 Ай бұрын

Let them hold a real heavy great sword, not a foamy one, to see how much their breath will last against three

@Kingdomkey123678 Ай бұрын

He’s done a video on that About as long as with the sparring Greatsword

@mekingtiger9095 Ай бұрын

The same can be said for the halberd, and even more so due to the center of balance being further apart from the handle.

@GrandLynx-kp2zi 26 күн бұрын

What about a 1v1 scenario?

@VirtualFechtschule 26 күн бұрын

Can go either way.

@ShaneReynolds0421 18 күн бұрын

Halberds are good weapons.

@jakestuart5858 Ай бұрын

Wait a minute, you fight by and while moving. So just don't fight the halberd guy in a box. Put the other guys between you and him. Wait for the chance to take the polearm.

@Candlemancer Ай бұрын

The halberd user can also move on his own though, and he's not going to let that happen.

@vergilais4085 Ай бұрын

Ты таким мечем долго не по махаешь, катана будет на много проктичней

@Candlemancer Ай бұрын

If a katana is just better, why did Japan have their own greatsword equivalent, the nodachi? Big swords are very strong when you can use them.

@Poopypanties Ай бұрын

It depends on the skill of the fighter, a peasant that is highly skilled and has nothing but a loin cloth, buckler, and a small axe, could defeat a heavily armored combatant with a claymore that has no experience

@joshdeeney8456 Ай бұрын

This is pretty good stuff, but I think it'd be even better if you gave the greatsworder some benefit like, if he gets a good hit on the halberd it "breaks"

@sirxarounthefrenchy7773 Ай бұрын

Exept that would't be historical. A great sword can't chop throught a polearm haft in one swing, it must be repeated strikes on the same area, like you would do when cutting down a tree, to manage to break it and by that point, the fight is most likely over.

@unknow11712 Ай бұрын

I mean, the problem for greatsword vs halberd is not much about versatility , but the fact that a greatsword will have a really hard time against armor, an halberd is build to destroy you with the armor .

@Kingdomkey123678 6 күн бұрын

At the time of greatswords and halberds the amount of armor on the battlefield was rapidly declining Meaning swords had plenty of exposed targets to strike at like the face and limbs

@b.h.abbott-motley2427 2 күн бұрын

@@Kingdomkey123678 Halberds go back to the 13th century. They became prominent in the 15th century. I'm not exactly when the greatsword originated. It also become prominent in the 15th century. In 1509, when plate armor was at its peak, Pietro Monte died in battle wielding a greatsword (according to Mike Prendergast, a leading Monte scholar). It's true that infantry usually had some exposed parts, but halberds & greatswords both saw widespread use at the absolute peak of armor quality, coverage, & prevalence in Europe.

@Cheburashka-qn3ky Ай бұрын

The greatsword was actually made to counter polearms/pikes.

@VirtualFechtschule Ай бұрын

Not really.

@sirxarounthefrenchy7773 Ай бұрын

It's a common myth that comes from the XIX th century I believe.

@Candlemancer Ай бұрын

That was *a* use, but only in formation backed up by plenty of your own polearms. It doesn't really apply to this open 3v1 scenario.

@b.h.abbott-motley2427 2 күн бұрын

According to Humphrey Barwick, French officers in the late 16th century started using halberds with longer & longer top spikes to fight landsknecht officers with greatswords.

@hlommersottana9236 Ай бұрын

Sure but let’s take into account that the polearm user has to be extra soft to avoid Downsyndromeing his opponent since this is not to death. The example of the great sword defeating the halberd in a 1v1 was lacking any sense since he kept doing the same parry move and the halberd still fell for it. Put two men with expertise in the weapon they use and a good fighting brain.