The only time that I have seen a situation where a group hug deck actually made me angry was when it resulted in a senerio where Noone had any chance to win including the player using the group hug deck. He played a series of cards that resulted in everyone drawing dozens of cards each turn from empty decks but because of what he had put into place we couldn't lose or win. It was funny but stupid too.

I made a group hug deck, but it has kynaios as commander, and the theme is basically "everyone draws cards and plays lands, but i get to play more and draw more than everyone else". lots of Consecrated Sphinx and Burgeoning effects.

You've got to be very careful how you build group hug decks. A clear and consistent win con and heavy interaction to control the flow of the game help to overcome the issues you've brought up

i love group hugs i agree they should have a win con like approach of the second suns or something along those lines. it makes the game more fun by having decks that take a long time to ramp up get their faster and i like when the dynamic of the game changes it makes magic different.

Great vid. JUST played against a pheldagriff group hug. Dude stated only win con was legit just the hippo. Was basically a super control deck that dragged the game on, while enabling the most powerful deck, who we had to gang up on, who then quit 1.5 hours into it out of frustration and stagnation. Then we all just quit. Fun group hug deck, bro!

I used to run a legit no wincon group hug deck. I thought it would be fun. All it achieved was accelerating decks in proportion to how powerful they are. Not fun. It's now more Political Control. It still contains many "hug" pieces, but a lot of the deck is control pieces (that give the opponent something in return for flavour reasons) and targeted hugs that play into the political aspect by rewarding my opponents for siding with me, or giving resources to players who are behind in order to slow down whoever is winning. And of course, I added win conditions. Much more fun for everyone.

I have an idea for a forced draw dimir deck, with forced fruition among others, i do not have a commander for it, i would like some suggestions.

My favorite deck to play is a Kruphix group hug deck, built around Kami of the Crescent Moon and Shizuko, Caller of Autumn style cards so they way everyone draws into their cards to see more of their deck and has the mana to play those cards. Nothing feels worse to me in a game than having bad draws or being mana screwed, so I designed a deck to try to prevent that from happening to other players at the table. But while I'm playing Simic, running Helix Pinnacle as one win condition and Biovisionary + Rite of Replication as another win condition feels like the smart move.

My group hug deck aims to win using Insurrection and similar effects The good lord giveth, the good lord taketh away

Reminds me of the time I played the stereotypical Phelddagrif group hug deck on a Commander night. At a table of about 12-4 players, one of whom was _also_ playing a group hug Phelddagrif deck. As you can expect, the situation escalator-ed. Long story short, it was basically a countdown for who could cheese their win-cons out the fastest, at which point they'd bow out and everyone else would keep playing. First went the Najeela player, who managed to get their combo _just_ before the Sisay player. The latter then did their thing. After that, The guy playing Memnarch went off. At that point things had gotten out of hand, for my own board state and for the board in general, given the two group huggers, my Smothering Tithe, and the Grixis Wheel player. I can't exactly recall if there was someone else who bowed out before me at that point, but what I _do_ know is that by the time I was ready to go off myself, I'd amassed over 100 treasure tokens, I had the biggest deck owing to a prior kicked Maddening Cacophony, and I had an untapped Folio of Fancies. Of all the ways to win as a group hugger, mass mill wasn't what anyone really expected. Of course, this was before I'd added Approach.

I've built a group hug deck that I feel is pretty fun for the table, with Kwain. The thematic is a "mill by draw" strategy where I try to mill out opoonents by making them draw way too many cards (seems innocent enough in the early game, can become quite threatening in th elate game) and it has some nice mill engines of course. I made some deckbuilding decisions tho to deal with some of the issues you adress. First I inserted some cards that are less group hug oriented, and strive more to limit people who are benefing too much from the ressources I grant them. The deck has a lot of counterspells to stop combo players from playing all their pieces, It also has some grave hate to limit recusion since opponents will end up discarding a lot of cards as well as milling, and finally for agro cards the deck has things such as Magus of the Tabernacle to punish/limit wide decks. Of couse I have some classic win cons such as Approach or Lab Manic in the odd case where I'll be winning with that deck (Forced Fruition, while not exactly a win con, is also a card I just love playing in the end game to see the opponents' reaction that limits the benefits from all the cards I game to the other players) All in all, it's true that you need a game plan to at least have a way to win in your deck, even if it's maybe not your main goal with that deck. Worst case scenario it'll make for an epic conclusion, when the group hug player wins out of nowhere.

I play true group hugs with Gluntch, the Bestower as my commander. I’ve carefully constructed my deck to offer the other players an equal opportunity to get ahead without making one particular person stronger than the rest but at the same time quickening the pace of the game. I do have win cons and I’ll use them if the opportunity arises but that’s not my goal 😅

I made a group hug deck thats like choking on the milk and honey. Yeah you get to draw cards, and draw some more, and more and more till you get deck milled.

My Kwain group hug deck allows me to build up a massive army over time whilst seeming not dangerous at all XD It has pretty decent win rate too

What really bothers me about group hug decks is that because they give equal resources to every player, nobody really gets ahead and wins, but the turns take FOREVER! seriously. we wer playing as 5 in this little store-tournament and every single turn took 5-10 minuts to figure out. What would have been a nice game for one and a half hours, turned into an over three hour slog of BS.

I'll be waiting for that commentary on Chaos decks. I've built one before and it turns out that getting Cruel Entertainment under an Eye of the Storm can cause gameplay to get very confusing! Also the trick to building a grouphug deck is to build the deck as if it was a stax deck. That means finding ways to get more value than your opponents for your effects. For example, having Concentrated Sphinx with Kwain

I’d like to see a video about chaos decks!

EDH is for me not played to win it is to have fun with friends. If you are not having fun ofc then a group hug deck might not be suitable for your table. For me however having someone be the group hug deck player really balances out a table where someone else is playing diplomatic. I would say that being a chaotic force that changes the power dynamics of the game and makes it more interesting. Commander is where wacky combos and synergies are meant to be explored for the fun of it not only to have a winner in the end. I will never stop trying to mill everyone else even though the task seems unachievable with 300 cards to burn through. It sometimes just works even if it should be impossible.

What would you call a deck like Beamtown Bullies, Jon Irenicus, Blim, or Zedruu? Because they fake being Group Hug by giving out "gifts"

The closest deck I have to group hug is my Gor Muldrak deck that gives out 4/3 tokens to players with the fewest creatures at my end step. The free gifts come at a price where my permanents and I have protection from them and I have several goad, non-token bounce and non-blue creature hate to cause these tokens to be used against others. There’s plenty of cards in blue and white that let several players draw cards at once, but I avoid them for the simple reason that they could lead to an opponent getting their win condition a turn or two early.

I agree with the points you bring up but I think a lot of people think of group hug the wrong way. I think it should be viewed as the opposite of stax. Stax denies resources and slows the game down, group hug increases resources and speeds the game up. Both archetypes *should* be prepared to capitalize on this mess they're each creating and be able to win once they've put the game into this state that theoretically should be favorable to them. If you're not trying to win from this position, that's where the problem is. I personally think no win-con group hug is just as miserable to play against as no win-con stax for this reason. And I think "group slug" decks are in fact the same archetype as group hug except "properly" built. If you're speeding the game up and giving everyone resources you should be trying to get everyone to burn up doing it

I have a homie who has a deck that is half group hug, so he doesnt feel bad to have the other half pretty optimized control/combo. It's a fun deck to play against because it does distribute resources to everyone, its just as eager to take it all away again

Recently finally caved to my playgroup and built a 'group hug' deck, I put it in apostrophes bc its commanders are The Second Doctor and Leela, which means that whenever the opponents accept my recourses, I also become more threatening, on top of this about 30% of the deck is some kind of control, whether it be goad enchantments, gaining control of big creatures, or just blowing stuff up, I'm making sure that I'm always able to present a threat and win.

Ya the group hug no win condition is annoying We had a group hug player that gave everyone infinite mana, and extended the game at least by two hours 😢

I only have made one Group hug deck. But I am in love with it. Rocco the Chef of the Cabaretti is a really fun commander. I only have one Win Condition, that triggers when each opponent has 60 lifes or more. The rest of the deck is a lot of cards that makes players gain life, play cards from exile or mist, to protect players(and only players)

I have a Kiyanos and Tiro deck that ramps up everyone, draws them carda and at one point I start stealing permanents and spells. I had no real win conditions when I first made the deck, but now I have a few late game cards that can outright win,like insurrection

In the process of building a group hug deck now, mainly to speed up games as my pod has mostly low level decks. I am going to take all of this under advisement and lean a little more towards politics. i think ill add some combo win cons, and more effects that let me pick and choose who benefits to keep the game fun.

Group hug as a strategy is one of my favorite strategies when done correctly. If someone is going full group hug with no wincon, it feels about as infuriating as a hard stax deck with no wincon. However, if the deck runs play lines, then group hug is really cool. I have a CEDH Livio/Ludevic deck that uses group hug and Rule of Law effects to effectively lock out the game. If everyone has a full grip, then you eventually hit a Mexican stand-off where everyone says, "My one spell will just get removed and eat a removal that someone would use on someone else to stop them from winning." I've had several discussions about how group hug isn't bad in CEDH, because 1 piece of removal is all it takes to stop someone from winning and group hug lets your "team" draw 3 vs the enemy drawing 1. I'm oversimplifying it, but group hug is fantastic and makes them game really interesting as long as the deck is still playing to win.

I run a Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis edh deck that plays around a bunch of 'draw an additional card on your draw step' cards, so my deck effect is mostly symetrical. However the deck's goal is to try and win still with heavy removal and counterspells for opponents win conditions, lots of propaganda effects and some table politics: 'Don't hit me I'm giving you guys cards' or 'I have removal for the stuff you don't like') to protect myself. The deck usually wins by resolving a smothering tithe and chaining together increasingly larger propsarity effects or a folio of fancies to mill people out, with back-up wincons being Psychosis Crawler, Insurrection and Jace, Wielder of Mysteries. I will also attempt to stop the strongest player from winning and work alongside other people on the board to do so (even if I am still giving the dangerous player extra cards). It can take wins fairly often especially if my opponents don't realize how my deck is trying to win right away. I felt this deck still would fall under the 'group hug' archetype since the effects are symetrical. Would this deck still count as a group hug deck this video is describing since I am actively trying to win, or would this be a politics deck as I try to get the table to use the resources I give them against each other and not at me?

I have Kynaios and I like how fun it is to play on 4+ players. Mine actually speed the game and encourgage everyone to start a war against each other as I protect myself and reward people attacking my oponents. There are also cards like Aproach of the Second Sun, Insurrection and or I can flip the game from helping other draw to mill them as a win condition.

I am attempting to make a group hug deck that has a lot of removal like path to exile, and generates allot of treasure tokens I am planning on combining with hellkite tyrant(and if that doesn’t work I can use stuff like triumph of the hordes and wheel of sun and moon to do some infect stuff) Edit: of course it has the ultimate group hug card, the deck of many things, be my friend or else!

Group hugs/slugs decks are by far my favorite. Then again I don't care if I win or lose, as long as I help people have fun. Make your group hug/slug decks into optional benefits, or targeted benefits. Take gluntch for example, hands down best hug commander ever in my opinion. Oh, player 3 is already ahead of everyone else? Give everyone else something and tell em he'll get first choice at your endstep. New Rocco wanting to cook up some spicy fun for the pod? Throw some Spicy Slug in there with the hugs. I end up equivalating slug/hug decks to planeschase, you just don't have to roll a dice to escape 😂😂

Said this in a reply but group hug decks with "gain control of all x type permanents" like rowan, fearless sparkmage or that one wbr commander planeswalker from the legends' legacy precon that takes all nonland permanents would be broken with this setup

I have an esper group hug deck where every card in the deck has to give my opponents something. I love drawing them to death, swapping our creatures for a big attack or giving them my other commander vislor to ping Turk to death

I can't say I've seen a Group Hug that doesn't have a plan to win. I'm sure they exist, but it's strange to me. My Group Hug uses The Second Doctor and Leela, Sevateem Warrior as partner commanders. The Doc will bribe people not to attack my by giving them cards. Every time my opponents draw an extra card, Leela does one push-up. The deck's game plan is to make everybody draw lots of cards, in the process pumping Leela to ridiculous power, then finding a way to get her damage though to one-punch people. Forced Fruition can also mill folks out as a backup plan. And it runs a few other things that help everybody get more lands or vote to remove threats, etc. It's group hug, but it definitely has a solid plan to win.

Thanks for this video. On my way to make a Group Hug deck and a Chaos deck. Imagine trying to tell someone else how to play the game.......

My group hug deck is a creatureless Lord Windgrace deck. I give everyone cards and mana, but I only gain myself life and I win with big x spells such as Torment, and Exanguinate. I don't understand the players who build group hug with no win con, nor the players who assume that because I am group hug I am not planning to win myself. I use the fact that I am non-threatening and actively helpful to earn good will and survive until the late game to win with aforementioned big x spells as well as running a few cards to protect myself along the way. I think it is quite fun, but yeah, you need win cons.

I despise group hug decks. For all the reasons you have mentioned, and one more, the dreaded social aspect. Often, if you're an aggro deck, or if you're entering the late game with good tempo, your best bet to win is to kill the group hug deck. Rarely, its multiple peoples best bet. This often makes a lot of backlash, particularly from the group hug player who does not perceive themselves as the threat. They often expect to be the last player to die, when in my opinion, they should often be the first.

I dislike group hug decks without win cons because they feel unnecessary. Yeah, there's a chance it'll accelerate me just as much as (if not more than) my opponents. That's not how i want to win though, and the extra advantages to the table isn't a factor that most people deck build around. In all honesty, I would likely target the group hug player first and foremost using my aggro decks to deny my other opponents additional resources. Hell, I once countered a "each player draws X cards" spell with my counterspell deck so i wouldn't risk my opponents drawing into interactions or powerful pieces since my mana and counters are finite.

Built a kynaios and tiro deck recently. Have triskadiphile and approach. Just so I actually have a chance to win 1/20 times lol.

Group hug decks are kinda best treated as a, well, treat. If like you encounter a group hug deck ever 1 out of 20 games, or even like 1 out of 15, it can be fun seeing how your deck performs when its given anabolic steroids in the form of massive amounts of card draw, land drops, and counters. And if 1 of the 3 other decks at the table far outperforms the other 2, 2v2 is an option, where the stronger deck gets most of the assistance from the group hug deck, and the 2 other decks try and defeat the stronger one.

I built a group hug deck that tries to win by putting big creatures on the board and swinging with them

The only time group hug decks work is if they have a game enter. Once had someone dump 45 mana into crackle with power once we were all tapped out. That was actually fun

Hehe... you'd Loooooove my Kynaios and Tiro Group Hug + Chaos deck

I agree 100%. I’ve sat in the seat after the group hug player and took benefits of extra mana then blew them up so other players can’t benefit making me lightyears ahead of everyone else. I’ve also been the last player after a group hug deck and didn’t get to reap any benefits because the game was over before it reached my turn.

The one thing about group hug if you're playing it right is that you need to control WHEN you hug, ideally you want to wait until the end step before your turn to benefit yourself more thanyour opponents

If you wanna run group hug, slott in Folio of Fancies and call it a quirky mill deck

Well now I know what my next deck will be. Group hug for everyone!

I play edric and I am there not to play group hug but to make people love the game the way people should. Rather than leave the table with a lose I want them to leave with an experience.

Group hug decks should be built like stax decks; in that they have ways to break parity /symmetrical effects or ways to benefit better

Lol he’d hate my favorite deck then. It’s a fusion of jug and chaos. Literally built to gum up everything, but I guess it kinda has a wincon in Divine intervention

I am trying to win the game with my Kwain deck. I’m trying to deck you out. I have other win cons in there, but pillowforting until you deck out is my usual win con.

I want to play a group hug because I like to see the chaos of other people's crazy card draws lol

I enjoy playing group hug. But I'm actually trying to win. Giving other players value generally makes you the last target for everyone. Plus I can use effects that let me benefit more than my opponents. There's even a few cards like head games which can actually be used offensively. I recommend having adding strong finishers, keeping a healthy amount of counter spells to prevent any enemy wins, and mixing in some politics cards so you can be more selective when its a bad idea to give a particular player more gas.

I built a group hug chaos deck lol its so funny to piss people off with extra lands😂

I think “group hug” encompasses a wider range of decks than you describe. A hug deck with no real game plan or wincon is an annoyance in all the ways you describe. However, group hug decks can be built as combo, aggro, control, etc. A quality group hug deck should benefit more from its own effects than the rest of the table, The Council of Four for example, and have a plan for ending the game. I think most common is a group hug control deck. You use the free stuff you give out as a token of goodwill you can use to avoid focus early. You also need more control elements to keep faster decks from winning while you set up. I use my group hug deck to introduce myself to new players. If I’m playing with strangers, it’s helpful to sit back and observe how they handle table politics. Howling Mine effects smooth out everyone’s hand, ideally giving everyone a chance to do their thing. I only step in when absolutely necessary with a timely counter or removal spell, instant speed is key here to avoid collateral damage. All of this while preparing my own win condition in the background.

Def want to see the chaos deck video. I totally agree. A deck with no win con is just no fun.

Group hug is amazing. I will run my group hug group annoyance deck until I die!

So, I agree with allll of your criticism, it's completely valid. That said, I love group hug, buuuuut this is mostly because my buddy and I will play double group hug decks whenever someone sits down who is just... too sweaty. If the person is unable to chill and have a fun time (competitive is good, but still fun), and is instead acting kind of toxic, we'll bust those out just to watch his frustration at how obviously his winning does not impress us. It's spite hug. 😂

I do think there is such a thing as fun chaos decks. Anything that doesn't take more than a couple minutes to resolve a card is fun! But that's for another video. Group Hug is... Suspect. I actually don't like when someone plays group hug with a two card I win combo. I like when the deck has a game plan, but there's such a thing as a fun way to build that and do it. I think certain commanders like Zedruu or the Azorius bunny guy can be great options for group hug with an objective. Nekuzar is a great example of abusive group hug. You know what you're getting from facing that deck. You have a clock and your draws will hurt you. So take care of the things that punish you before it's too late. Don't be too greedy!!! But yeah, it can throw off the dynamic and lead to a very unsatisfying conclusion

I have two types of group hug decks. 1. True group hug. No, i dont have a win con. I will not win. I will make this game 1000% faster and maybe choose who wins. 2. Nobody can win or lose. Its a tie.

I do play "group hug" - that jellyfish from d&d set. It turns into politics right away. it is much easier to avoid attacks when you help to enable them. It is also very important when playing "GH" to not turn into table police that will just stop any action just to keep players alive, or just to make game take longer, since that's just exhausting for ppl.

I made a semi-group hug deck that makes everyone draw cards. quickly scrapped it after 3 games. The games became boringly long.

Finally someone speaking truth. Group Hug only makes the strong decks stronger.

I think that means that I'm your worst nightmare I basically only play group hug What the goal is mostly to put the most amount of counters on the library.

❤ good video

Chaos is my fav. I measure fun by time I get to spend with friends at the table. Chaos makes a game go for 4 hours, 4 hours of fun. Aggro goes for 20 min, less fun. Your welcome (everyone loves a good Jokulhaups)

I like the type of group hug that just kills everyone eventually. Either by drawing everyone out whilst keeping the weakest players alive or by just stacking smothering tithe effects.

Kenrith win with a happily ever after is my group hug dream

I played against someone claiming to run a "mill group hug" deck. He didn't play a single card that benefited anyone else.

Well i have a Gluntch Group Hug Deck with Stax a lot of Mass Removal and Masslanddestruction But i have a lot of enchantress-pieces and several wincons I am only playing MLD for example when somebody is being rude to me etc. It is a politics only deck

To be fair, any deck without some gameplan or wincon is annoying to play against

I would make the case that there are plenty of non group-hug decks that don't try to win. I would much rather be playing against a deck that speeds up the game without trying to win than, say, a stax deck that slows down the game and still has no win conditions...

I find the games where group hug is fun, is where someone else is playing group slug, and maybe a chaos player. Fun for casual goofy decks, not so much for people who plan on playing "normally" or only know how to play competitively (but frick those dudes)

It’s not my fault if my synergy of lots of mana/huge draw X spell/ Eureka doesn’t allow you to win over someone else. I play my group hug deck to have fun and let players see what there decks can do in Magical Christmas Land literally. And yes, my hug deck can win, but since the primary focus of the deck isn’t winning, it doesn’t win often.

Is there already a similar idea that does political group hug with some group hate stuff? That jellyfish commander and i mess with everyone? Mill and discard, maybe with choices? Smallpox is going in just cause Edit: fixed a typo, but also, not sure i made it clear that i wanna sit there and help and hurt everyone for the fun of it, maybe choose a winner, not necessarily for my advantage

Oh so my group hug doesn’t count? I have multiple win cons in my. It’s a casual one but it’s designed to win many different ways

When someone plays Group Hug, I play Combo...Just to give the GH Player what he wanted...

I play group hug an lov it just stay in the back and hold All a live but still Got som win combos 1 is hurricane just for fun og som mill to win when you hav luck the game and no 1 Can see when you hav go off and you just win or stop All dmg from otter players and just hit Them whit Phelddagrif

If people want group hug just run planeschase and only have hug planeschase cards. The social problem with group hug has two glaring issues 1) no win condition 2) has win condition and people feel manipulated and tricked Both outcomes of group hug is unhealthy

I agree with this. In general, I want my deck to perform the way I've designed it to, based on the curve I've created, etc. I've tailored card draw, removal, and all of that, to normal playing conditions. Group hug upends all of that. Suddenly, I'm drawing a crap ton of cards each turn, playing a bunch of extra lands, the game is moving too fast, there's too much to do, and the group hug player is getting mad at me whenever I attack him. It's just a downright annoying deck, since we've all built our decks to be self-sufficient, and we don't need some other dude playing mana-doubling cards. Your other critiques when it comes to helping the winning player, etc., are also valid.

So this is probably a me thing, but when I play either my group hug or political deck, I QUICKLY become a target 😂.

I agree, they just makes the game anoying

Eu odeio também group-hug, acredito que decks que se propõem a tal advém de carência do jogador.

Group hug is a result of a soft culture and rule 0. I miss competitive gaming.

Group Hug is an insulting "archetype." If they are trying to go "under the radar" it only works if their opponents are bad or stupid or both. If they are actually trying to "not win" then they are most likely helping the "leader" more than the ones who are behind...and sense the "Grouphug" player is playing cards that help "everyone" they have less resources to defend themselves while the "leader" can simply focus on staying ahead...which means the remaining two players have either an uphill fight against a supercharged oppponent...or an easy target in the GH player...which inevitably leads to whining from the GH player. If either of these aren't true then it isn't actually a "GH" deck, it's actually tryjng to win the game and that's fine.

L opinion, let me be “nice”

Be mad about it. Some people don't want to win. Imagine just having fun in a game. Who plays commander Normally? Just have fun with the game. That's what eDH is about. Get over yourself lol 😆

Anyone who builds a group hug deck to do nothing other than help everyone else, missed the point entirely. The whole point of group hug is to take yourself out of everyone's decision making as a viable target, leaving you the opportunity to capitalize on low life totals, the space to get your combo pieces, etc.. That's not just a political deck, that's the whole reason the group hug archetype exists. I personally dislike group hug decks because you know they are up to something and never know what it is until it's too late.

L take

I hate hugs

Maybe ppl should not play aggro and actually enjoy the game, if you're in a rush just go home red player turn 3 gameplan lol I'm joking

Ya’ll just don’t like fun

Group hug decks are stax decks for cowards.

This is strawman argument - you’re not against group hugs, but against deck that don’t try to win. This is very obvious, hardly anybody disagrees and if the video title wasn’t misleading, many wouldn’t ever watch it.

Group hug without win con's is not group hug, its just idiocracy.