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Guitar amp tube output transformer testing How to D-Lab Fender Princeton

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D-lab Electronics

D-lab Electronics

9 жыл бұрын

Demo to assist you with testing/troubleshooting output transformers. The same test can be applied to power transformers. A Ratio meter is a great device for determining proper impedance. Without it, there is no easy way to determine proper application of a tranny to tube match.

Пікірлер: 111
@TheRoiderien
@TheRoiderien 6 жыл бұрын
Terry went by a very important point rather quickly, so I thought I'd call attention to it. The impedance ratio of a transformer is the square of the voltage ratio. So, note that Terry squared the voltage ratio of 30 to get 900, which he then multiplied by 8, the desired output impedance. Good job, Terry, on explaining all the things that need to be checked.
@SandersAmps
@SandersAmps 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks! I was trying to grok that.
@dhpbear2
@dhpbear2 5 жыл бұрын
That Ratio-Meter has a very 'home-project' look to it. I'll bet about 10 of them were ever made!
@mikeedwards9304
@mikeedwards9304 4 жыл бұрын
I would pack up and leave right now to come live by you and work with you and learn got so much stuff I want to do and build but I'm getting old is hard to learn now, not that old though leme know if you need a hand, I would appreciate the opportunity. Is a lot of guys on KZfaq that do similar videos but you seem to really have a grasp on everything and a thorough understanding so it's just another day at the office awesome
@gri7
@gri7 Жыл бұрын
Great video. I have a 1961 Harmony amplifier I'm trying to test if the output Transformer is blown. My only tool is a digital multimeter.
@chadith
@chadith 5 жыл бұрын
Hey Terry, since you’re not building anymore of these, will you post/share a schematic? I’d love to build something new. Thanks! -Chad
@kd5ozy
@kd5ozy 9 жыл бұрын
you can apply a low ac voltage on the primary and read ac on the secondary and figure turns and impedence ratios
@silasfatchett5693
@silasfatchett5693 8 жыл бұрын
+James skippinhopper Yes, all you need is a signal generator (or a low voltage mains transformer) and a multimeter. With an analog meter you can check for inductance by measuring resistance and watching to check that the pointer hesitates before it accelerates to the resistance value.
@silasfatchett5693
@silasfatchett5693 6 жыл бұрын
You can check for shorted turns in the primary by measuring its resistance with an analog meter. First, measure a resistor of similar resistance to the primary, while closely observing the pointer of the meter, which will begin to move immediately and then go smoothly to the value of the resistor. Now measure the primary, and you should see the pointer hesitate before it starts to move, and then accelerate to the final resistance. This indicates that the primary still has inductance. If there are shorted turns in the primary, the pointer will react as if it were measuring a resistor.
@garybrown8767
@garybrown8767 6 жыл бұрын
What kind of BS is that?
@silasfatchett7380
@silasfatchett7380 5 жыл бұрын
@@garybrown8767 It's the kind of BS that you learn from to techs who have been designing, building and repairing tube amps for over sixty years.
@garybrown8767
@garybrown8767 5 жыл бұрын
@@silasfatchett7380 And that is a load of BS to.
@jesse75
@jesse75 3 ай бұрын
Great video. I have a pile of transformers.
@jraimondi
@jraimondi 9 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the response Terry. After some investigating I suspect it may be the type of PPIMV I used. It may be attenuating the overall volume of the amp even when turned to the max. I am going to disconnect the master volume and see what happens.
@rockettcrawford890
@rockettcrawford890 6 жыл бұрын
Just wanted to say I love your videos.
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 6 жыл бұрын
Thank you. I will do my best to maintain good content
@BrewerShettles
@BrewerShettles 5 ай бұрын
Hi! Great Video!! Is this the same for a Champ Transformer with 2 leads secondary + 2 leads primary?
@lowheadroom
@lowheadroom Жыл бұрын
D Lab rules, period.
@BrewerShettles
@BrewerShettles 5 ай бұрын
Is this Transformer working? Thanks - Tested 1966 Fender Blackface Champ transformer (removed by Gerald Weber) using a Fluke 101 MM Alligator Clips : TESTS - Secondary ( 2 leads) 0.2 Ohms - Primary ( 2 leads) = 271 Ohms - Continuity Primary to Secondary = OL (All) - Shorts to Ground / Shorts to Case = OL (All) Fluke 101 MM
@Mark70609
@Mark70609 3 ай бұрын
This is all good stuff but how do you tell if the frequency response of the transformer is correct?
@Nirky
@Nirky 5 жыл бұрын
What if you have a vintage trans that has dark cloth insulation in which it is not possible to see red nor blue for primary, and no insulation on secondaries, just wires? That's what I got!
@richieverrico8875
@richieverrico8875 7 жыл бұрын
I have a Peavey Windsor head, the other day I was playing and it sounds as if something shorted which got extremely loud and distorted. Even when I put it on standby it carried on so had to turn the power off. Is this something to do with the transformer or tubes? I think its the output transformer because it carried on after putting it on standby. Any ideas?
@zbyszekskibinski
@zbyszekskibinski 4 жыл бұрын
My transformer in Blackstar amp reads 100 ohms from plate 1 to central tap and 120 ohms from plate 2 to central, but I dont think its faulty its just not balanced? Thanks for your comments
@fostexfan160
@fostexfan160 8 ай бұрын
I get reading of between 4 and 9 megaohms when I connect between the primary and secondary windings on a suspect output transformer. So I assume thats the problem with my amp? Massive amounts of humming and no sound from speaker
@markemmerton5350
@markemmerton5350 7 жыл бұрын
Someone is giving me an old dead console stereo from the 60s. If an output transformer has been blown from old caps, the first tests would pick up that it is shorting right? I could try to go through the amp and try to replace caps / troubleshoot the cause of the failure. But I am thinking of just scavenging it and testing the tubes and transformers for potential re-use in a new amp.
@carlrudd1858
@carlrudd1858 9 жыл бұрын
Very educational lead-up to a SALES PITCH. Thank you.
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 9 жыл бұрын
Carl Rudd Yep, need to sell a few D-lab units to keep the videos running. I made 4 of these units. Have 1 left. They are pretty handy on the bench
@carlrudd1858
@carlrudd1858 9 жыл бұрын
You did a good job. Nice video too.
@thelusienorchestra
@thelusienorchestra 3 жыл бұрын
Great!!!
@MathewWhitaker
@MathewWhitaker 6 жыл бұрын
Hi. Great video. Maybe you can help. Primary side- Mine are red and white with brown tap. Tap-Red= 185ohms Tap- white. No reading Red-White. No reading. This is a stereo amp and have the same readings for both transformers. Can you advise🤔🤔🤔
@kitchenetteband5838
@kitchenetteband5838 4 жыл бұрын
Working on a 100W quad reverb, basically a twin.. My OT primary reads around 35 ohms on both sides of the center tap.. Seems kinda low to me. Shouldn't it be like more around 100 ohm or so?
@dougroundup7315
@dougroundup7315 5 жыл бұрын
How about some plans on building your own ratio meter? Basically this is a current limited ac power supply , an adequate load and two rms volt meter?
@robertskolnick8162
@robertskolnick8162 5 жыл бұрын
i agree ...i would be glad to pay for a set of plans ,,since you do not plan to build any more of them...it would be a good income source for d-lab...just include statement of build at your own risk....
@Buhhhhhh-xi4ju
@Buhhhhhh-xi4ju Жыл бұрын
I got 8ohms from secondary to primary center tap. It’s cooked right?
@stefanBEAR98
@stefanBEAR98 6 жыл бұрын
Can shorted turns in the primary output transformer cause overheating?
@MrLeadghost
@MrLeadghost 5 жыл бұрын
Is there a foolproof way to determine the common on the secondary?
@worldwide1376
@worldwide1376 2 жыл бұрын
That great and all that your wine is good, but how about sharing some info like the Winery and vintage!
@murraymacdonald4959
@murraymacdonald4959 4 жыл бұрын
Great stuff. Keep them coming
@-Todays-Tom-Sawyer-
@-Todays-Tom-Sawyer- 8 жыл бұрын
Hi Terry, I have a dead quiet National receiver. Can I insert an RF signal directly into the primary side (6V6GT pin 3 & 4) of the output transformer to check functionality of the transformer and voice coil? thanks
@garybrown8767
@garybrown8767 4 жыл бұрын
That particular transformer is just a straight forward layer wound, not a bifilar wound unit. This is why the ct to each side is a little different than the other side. You failed to mention that the lower ohm primary side from ct is closer to the core. What I get a kick out of is you using an ohmmeter to check the transformer. That pretty much will show a dead short or open. A hipot tester is a better way to test the transformer. Another thing, toss 100 volts AC on one side of the primary and the other side of primary should be the same. Ask me how I know this stuff, I rewound transformers for 25 plus years. Ohmmeters are a waste of time. You need a variable AC supply, metered up to 5 amps and a good 10KV variable hipot tester.
@PeterPug
@PeterPug 9 жыл бұрын
Cool! I got learned!! Haha. But seriously, what does it sound like when your output transformer is faulty? I have a Boogie amp that sounds "starved" for the lack of a better term...almost like a buzzy transistor sound!??
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 9 жыл бұрын
PeterPug007 Hi Peter, usually the transformer will open on 1 side disabling the high voltage from reaching one output tube.This will make the amp very distorted and yes loose power. You can buzz out the output tranny. Make sure the power is off and HV discharged. Check form the power supply HV to each tube plate. You should see equal resistance. Then check each leg to chassis. Make sure the tranny does not have an internal short. Hope this helps
@colonelbrando
@colonelbrando 3 жыл бұрын
if my output transformer doesn't sum resistance across the primary leads is it busted?
@mikeedwards9304
@mikeedwards9304 4 жыл бұрын
But I could drink that wine faster lol
@deandee8082
@deandee8082 2 жыл бұрын
what if its solid state? with 5 + 2 leads?
@matthewf1979
@matthewf1979 7 жыл бұрын
Great, easy to use meter!
@douglasmayhall8279
@douglasmayhall8279 6 жыл бұрын
hello terry.. do you still have one of the meters available for sale? by the way, your videos are highly educational..
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 6 жыл бұрын
Hello, nope, sorry, I made 4. Material cost was too high to continue the project. Glad you like the vids, more coming soon. TD
@mikesamra9126
@mikesamra9126 4 жыл бұрын
@@d-labelectronics All you have to do is use a variac and a DVM. I use 2 DVMs to make it a little quicker but it works just fine.
@RobertLandrum13
@RobertLandrum13 5 жыл бұрын
On my 69 Princeton Reverb I'm only getting a PV reading on the right 6v6 and the left one is giving a negative low number on pin 3. Am I missing something? Amp sounds and plays great but checking the bias I noticed this.
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 5 жыл бұрын
Hello, sounds like an open output transformer winding. Have you tried taking an Ohm check between the 2 pin 3's? Should be around 300 ohms.
@RobertLandrum13
@RobertLandrum13 5 жыл бұрын
@@d-labelectronics That's what I was afraid of. I haven't checked ohms yet. It got late and I had to get in the bed. I'll be able to check more when I get off work. Anything else to look for to confirm? Is it possible to get it fixed since its original to the amp?
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 5 жыл бұрын
Hey man, The originals can pop up on ebay or Reverb.com. I'd sub in a Classic Tone, Chicago, Great iron
@RobertLandrum13
@RobertLandrum13 5 жыл бұрын
@@d-labelectronics Would my amp continue working fine with zero noise if one of the OT wires wasn't putting out voltage to one tube? Everything is working fine, both tubes glowing fine but I just don't have voltage on pin 3 of that one tube. Also I get no ohm reading between the 2 pin 3s. I did order an Allen OT today anyway. Thanks for helping me.
@kornami8678
@kornami8678 5 жыл бұрын
I see your instrument is using a Heathkit box, but is not a Heathkit product.
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 5 жыл бұрын
Yes, Re-purposed the enclosure for the project
@robjeff1969
@robjeff1969 6 жыл бұрын
I have a Blues Deluxe which went silent on me, the tubes light up, but the amp doesn't make a sound, I suspect the Output Transformer. Should I have the same values from the Multimeter as you have here from the Princeton Transformer? When I test the Ohms on the secondaries I become 73.5 on one side and 82.5 on the other and together 155.3 , where you are getting 191 on each side and 382 together. Does that show a problem with my Output Transformer or is there a differenct between the Princeton and Blues Deluxe Transformer ?
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 6 жыл бұрын
Sounds like your output tranny is fine. Check the high voltage and screen resistors. TD
@robjeff1969
@robjeff1969 6 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the feedback! I decided to test one the Transformers on one of my other amps to compare the results, and noticed that when I touched the inputs on the Tranny with the Multimeter that I heard noise from the speaker, which scared me at first, thinking perhaps I had left the power cable stuck in, wasn't so, but then I thought "A Ha", I didn't hear that from the "Broken" amp, so I traded the Speakers in the Amps, and my "Broken" Amp works!, It was the Speaker. Thanks for sharing your knowledge , I am enjoying learning how my Amps work and troubleshooting on my own. Robert Jefferies Berlin
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 6 жыл бұрын
Excellent, good to hear. Its a great hobby
@robjeff1969
@robjeff1969 6 жыл бұрын
I got my new Speaker, an Eminence Legend GB 128. Amp works, Sounds super. I hangedmy Multimeter onto the Speaker connections, and when I play at the Amps full volume, the Multimeter reads 23V. VxV/Ohms = Watts, right? So 23x23/8=66 , 66 Watts is too much to be coming out of my 40 Watt Amplifier. Der GB 128 is a 50 W Speaker, should be correct for a 40W Amplifier, but when it's giving out 66 Watts. Is this why I had to buy a new Speaker in the first place? or am I mistaken on my measuring of the Speaker connections?
@TheRoiderien
@TheRoiderien 6 жыл бұрын
It's important to know what the waveform looks like before you calculate power. It would be best to connect an oscilloscope across your speaker leads, inject a clean sinewave into the input of your amp, and then adjust the output of your sinewave generator and volume control until the output just starts to saturate. Note the peak-to-peak voltage on the scope screen, divide by 2.828, square that number, and then divide by your speaker's impedance (probably 8 ohms). That will give you your clean power output. Pushing your amp's gain up until the amp saturates will give you even more power, but with the complicated waveform, you would need a rue power meter to accurately measure the power.
@skev27
@skev27 9 жыл бұрын
Very interesting! Thanks for sharing.
@jraimondi
@jraimondi 9 жыл бұрын
Would a Output transformer still function if it had some sort of internal issue? I have a 100 watt Fender amp with a 39 yr old OT that operates fine but I am not getting the loudness that would be typical of a 100 watt amp....more like a 20 watt amp. As a comparison, A friend brought his 60 watt Fender amp over and we almost blew the roof off with his master volume set on 2.
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 9 жыл бұрын
Hello, That issue could be many things. The first thing I would check would be the bias thru each output tube. Also, a bad inverter tube can cause all kinds of issues. Where are you located? I would be glad to go over the amp for you.
@neutrodyne
@neutrodyne 8 жыл бұрын
I am not sure I am totally following you on this. As you know the primary impedance will be dependent on the ohm load that is placed on the secondary winding of the transformer. Does this Tester put an 8 ohm load on the secondary winding of the transformer? The impedance also changes with frequency. What frequency are you testing this with? If I am missing something in this please let me know. Thank you.
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 8 жыл бұрын
+neutrodyne Hello, Yes a load is applied to the secondary. The turns ratio is simply based on dialing in the primary side until you see 1 vac on the secondary, then read the primary. The frequency is 60HZ. The ac voltage is current limited to prevent damage/shock. TD
@neutrodyne
@neutrodyne 8 жыл бұрын
So you are basily do a turns ratio test?
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 8 жыл бұрын
+neutrodyne Yes Sir, thats it
@zachpool4085
@zachpool4085 5 жыл бұрын
Should there be continuity between the secondary and case/ground?
@silasfatchett7380
@silasfatchett7380 5 жыл бұрын
No.
@silasfatchett7380
@silasfatchett7380 4 жыл бұрын
Apologies are in order. I was assuming that you were testing a transformer which was not installed in an amp, in which case there should be no continuity. If the transformer is installed in an amp, then one side of the secondary will be connected to ground.
@BitterrootRambler
@BitterrootRambler 8 жыл бұрын
Question - I have a Gibson Hawk (GA 25rvt). 15" speaker 6V6 version. When I turn it on the jewel lights up and the tubes light up but absolutely no sound. I pulled the output tran and tested it. Red + Blue = 140. Red+Brown=160. Blue+Brown=0. - transformer shot?? Im guessing yes. Could it be anything else? I also noticed that when I was trying to check the transformer while it was still wired in I could hear a little sound come out of the speaker when I touched the probes to the terminals. I suspect that it was being caused by the electrical from the meter but a would dead transformer still do that? maybe so?
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 8 жыл бұрын
+BitterrootRambler Hello, Yes, I would agree. Sounds like the primary is shorted. Did you check one of the primary wires to the case of the transformer? Usually when they fail, you will find low resistance to the case also. TD
@BitterrootRambler
@BitterrootRambler 8 жыл бұрын
I did that but didnt notice anything. ill try again and cycle the meter. any recommendations on where to pickup a new transformer. Mercury Magnetics wants almost 200 bucks for one!
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 8 жыл бұрын
+BitterrootRambler You could install a Classic tone type, made in Chicago. Check Triode.com
@neutrodyne
@neutrodyne 8 жыл бұрын
+BitterrootRambler If you haven't order a transformer yet. I would not order one. There are a lot of other things that could cause a no sound condition on your amp. Spend the money by taking the amp to a amp tech and have it checked out. You would be wise to also replace all electrolytic caps in the amp while you are at it.
@tiki_trash
@tiki_trash 2 жыл бұрын
This song kicks butt! Anybody know the band?
@adlibriffin
@adlibriffin 7 жыл бұрын
Hi I have a Peavey ValveKing Micro Mini and I had inadvertently forgot to connect my speaker cable ( which was already connected to the ValveKing but not the cabinet) to the speaker cabinet while the amp was on for about 10 minutes or so. I eventually realized what I did and turned the amp off immediately. I then connected the speaker cable like I should have and turned the amp back on and the amp seemed ok. I know it's a bad scenario for the output transformer. My question would be then would you know if Peavey employs some kind of fail safe circuitry to prevent the output transformer from burning out? If not do you believe that my transformer on the ValveKing suffered any damage? Thanks
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 7 жыл бұрын
Hello, the transformer should be fine. If the amp still plays OK, your good to go. TD
@silasfatchett5693
@silasfatchett5693 7 жыл бұрын
A tube amp will happily idle with no speaker load. The damage occurs when it attempts to amplify a signal.
@joecarpenter4200
@joecarpenter4200 8 жыл бұрын
If I don't have a ratio meter, can connect my auto transformer and read the output on the transformer then calculate?
@silasfatchett5693
@silasfatchett5693 6 жыл бұрын
Yes. The voltage across the primary divided by the voltage across the secondary is the turns ratio. By applying 1V to the secondary, Terry didn't have to punch a division sum into his calculator.
@andrewshropshire3842
@andrewshropshire3842 7 жыл бұрын
who's the band in the background? into that jam
@FluxCondenser
@FluxCondenser 6 жыл бұрын
Andrew Shropshire Joe Jackson. King Pleasure.
@leesanders6490
@leesanders6490 6 жыл бұрын
Thanks Flux.
@FluxCondenser
@FluxCondenser 6 жыл бұрын
Love the Joe Jackson.
@tiki_trash
@tiki_trash 2 жыл бұрын
Ah, I should have known. I just asked who this was in another post. Do you know the name of the album?
@FluxCondenser
@FluxCondenser 2 жыл бұрын
@@tiki_trash yup, that’s from the album Rain. Great stuff.
@crankfotton
@crankfotton Жыл бұрын
The Song is Called "King Pleasure Time". You are welcome.
@johncunningham5435
@johncunningham5435 8 жыл бұрын
Do you still have a Ratio Turns Meter available?
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 8 жыл бұрын
+John Cunningham Hello John, Yes Sir, I have 1 more like the Heathkit style in this video
@johncunningham5435
@johncunningham5435 8 жыл бұрын
What is your asking price?
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 8 жыл бұрын
+John Cunningham Hi John, The best price is 200 shipped. My parts cost was high due to AC isolation. TD
@bmwm3cs
@bmwm3cs 9 жыл бұрын
Cool thanks!
@jeffreyneely3341
@jeffreyneely3341 7 жыл бұрын
hey is that ratio meter your own build?
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 7 жыл бұрын
Hello, Yes, I built 4 of them. Sold 3
@jeffreyneely3341
@jeffreyneely3341 7 жыл бұрын
D-lab Electronics how much did they go for?
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 7 жыл бұрын
I believe around 250. The parts are hard to come by, especially the meters
@jeffreyneely3341
@jeffreyneely3341 7 жыл бұрын
D-lab Electronics well it's a great tool. any plans to make more?
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 7 жыл бұрын
Not now, too many projects on the bench
@moodyga40
@moodyga40 8 жыл бұрын
how does the 6av6 circuit work
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 8 жыл бұрын
+ian “valve doctor” forster Hello, take a look at a Fender Princeton phase inverter diagram. One half of the 12ax7 is for tremolo, the other half is the inverter. The 6AV6 tube uses that half of the diagram. A very simple but great performing inverter. TD
@moodyga40
@moodyga40 8 жыл бұрын
ok got you are just using the triode part of the 6av6
@d-labelectronics
@d-labelectronics 8 жыл бұрын
+ian “valve doctor” forster Yes Sir. The 6AV6 is a great tube for that application
@gwell12
@gwell12 7 жыл бұрын
I don't understand why you multiplied 30 by 30
@silasfatchett5693
@silasfatchett5693 7 жыл бұрын
Impedance is a function of voltage and current. If an 8Ω speaker has an 8V signal across it, there is 8V / 8Ω = 1A flowing in it. If it is connected to the secondary of a transformer with a 40:1 turns ratio, at the primary, voltage is stepped up by 40:1, 8V x 40 = 320V. Current is stepped down by 40:1, 1A / 40 = 0.025A. The impedance of the primary is 320V / 0.025A = 12,800Ω. 8Ω x 40 x 40 = 12,800Ω.
@rockettcrawford890
@rockettcrawford890 5 жыл бұрын
I was asking that myself. I worked it out using ohm's law and saw that this was a short cut. One of the 30s is the voltage on the left side of Terry's device. The other 30 is the number of windings as Terry's device reveals (30v/1v= 30 windings ratio). Primary ohms = 30 volts * 30 (winding ratio) * secondary ohms. The full equations is this: the current on the speaker side is 1 volt / 8 ohms or .125A. As Silas points out the current is multiplied going the other way through the transformer by the windings ratio which is 30 so it's .125A * 30 on the primary side. To to find the ohms on the primary side (ohms = volts/resistance) is 30v (as on the left or primary side of Terry's device) divided by .125A. * 30(windings ratio) or 30v/.125A * 30. You can take the reciprocal of .125A which is 8 and turn the division into a multiplication so Terry's short cut is ohms = 30 * 30 * 8.
@dedskin1
@dedskin1 5 жыл бұрын
speaker coil is 8 ohm not a transformer , transformer just reflects the speaker resistance or impedance on amp side , like a mirror , hence there is no point in searching 8ohms or 16ohm on secondary of transformer
@pinqueenmartin9582
@pinqueenmartin9582 2 жыл бұрын
Lose the music. It's impossible to concentrate on the subject. Lame
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