So they even had annoying new age cultural imperialists back in the ancient times. Lol.

Kind of contradicts the idea of a black Athena

@@ZontarDow only if you assume a white perspective for the game.

This passage explicitly says that each ethnicity had their own Gods that looked like them and acted like them, so it wouldn't make sense if the white European Greeks had black African gods in their pantheon, no?

@@TwoHands95 It absolutely does since they believed those gods were universal. Also the very concept of "white european" simply was not a thing

I was hoping for a shift to politics but I'll take it

There's enough politics out there.

@@biocode4478 what more woke politics. You have tons of that.

@@biocode4478 It's all politics anyway, current political and social beliefs and systems are closely linked to the legacy of the cultures we all descended from. Similarly, any game and the ideas expressed within, are in some way a reflection on the politics of its creators or the environment it was made in. Which is to say, I just want George to throw more mythology at us! His Curiositystream subscription is really paying off.

@@as1tis Everything is politics

It's true and it's great

One must imagine George happy.

@@demirdzaferovic2990 We have to for MGS is now gone...

Amem.

Hey, could I ask you to elaborate a bit on the Ares and Mars thing? I haven't heard of that before and find it very interesting.

@@SonicDMonkey The Greek and Roman gods are similar in broad attributions because they come from the same stock, but they were given very different characters or "domains". While Ares quickly became an angry god of violence and uncivilised warfare, raw strength and individual might, Mars was the protector of the cattle and the fields, the personification of the good one can do for the community when using force to protect. Of course Mars was also patron of warriors and violence, but he was seen in a definitelt positive light, while Ares was usually not.

@@SonicDMonkey Gods, and the associated religious rituals, changed all the time, as people changed with time and old folklore and traditions got forgotten or updated to fit the times. This is especially true when the gods migrate from culture to culture, such as with Romans adapting Greek gods, or Romans adapting Mithras, or Caribbeans adapting Christian saints into Voodoo loa. Romans in general were big on adapting foreign deities. A standard war ritual for the Romans was bribing foreign gods with sacrifices and altars to persuade them to live in and work with Rome instead of patronizing the peoples they are currently with. For the Greeks, Ares was one of the less liked gods, being the deity associated with anger and mindless war. It's Athena who is the patron of strategy and victory. Ares hits stuff until its dead. For the Romans, Mars moved on to being chief god of the nation, supplanting Zeus/Jupiter. It also has been changed into various aspects to fit the times and political needs of the emperor. For example Augustus created Mars Ultor - Mars the Avenger, symbolizing his defeat of Caesar's assassins and Making Rome Great Again after a string of internal and external turmoils. And when Romans came to Brittain, Mars was adapted by Celts and merged with multiple local deities creating many smaller, very obscure branches.

That gods give patronage is not to be confused with Tribal exclusive gods.

I like that

yeah i thought similarly as in she was like an ashy granite or black marble sort of thing.

Albert Camus aka Daddy

@@RastafarianPilgrim Gross.

Exactly what I thought when I saw him in game and his attitude

And they thought Thor was Hercules, and Tyr was Mars

@@CollinBuckman To be frank Thor is pretty similar to Hercules all things considered. He did go on all those weird quests and crossdressed at least once.

Mercury being Odin makes sense. Both carry staffs/spears, both are associated with wings and messengers, both are tricksters, etc.

@@CollinBuckman to be fair tyr is literally an ancient Iranian word for mars, and whom the Romans would have interacted with. The rest tho, lmao

@@PejmanMan I think it's more because Tyr and Mars were both worshipped as gods of war and law, while Thor and Hercules were both big buff gods famous for beating people up a lot lol

I love how this comment proves itself lol

The game itself is pretty horny in places, especially once you reach certain social levels So, it's to be expected

One god in particular in this game makes me feel devious

@@zeppie_ You don't even need to specify which one. It's all of them, isn't it?

@@unvexis I’m guessing they meant Thanatos

Drrrrr your da reel racism cuz um

@@EmeraldLavigne i dont understand, but im curious to hear what your perspective is on the topic though

@@EmeraldLavigne i reread it and I think i got it 👍👌🖖

I'm just praying someone like MS doesn't buy them up but I don't think they'd ever say yes or anything.

@@amilyester I think the winning strategy with that is to have everyone in the company agree to say yes, take the money and then leave to make a new company with said money. You get MS's money, they get the IP they want to drive to ruin, you keep your ability to make your art. Only the name changes really. Mind you, I imagine MS has a lot of BS setup to avoid that exact scenario but it doesn't mean I don't wish it could be so.

how deep

Weidman for President!

We must become lotus eaters.

wonder when he'll start wearing coats and smoke an unhealthy amount of cigarettes

I thought it was just to add more expression to the art on this rather modern take on ancient greek mythology. The only character where i acknowleded the change was eurydice but i didn't think much of it as the game already takes lots of liberties from the source material. To me this was more of a sit-com/anime/drama version of the classics - but gameified, like when they make comedy versions of grim fairytales or make modern versions of shakespear material.

Careful George will hear you, i think he wants to think of them as full on blek.

I never gave too much of a thought to skin color because it's obviously a very modernised retelling instead of a literal interpretation of the myth. In a game where the son of Hades says 'mate" to everyone he comes across and there's a maid medusa, someone's skin color should not be a point of concern.

I figured it was in reference to their black ceramic style.

I'm fully in agreement with what has been said above me. Personally, I only realized Athena was black after I saw an article mention it. They're all such great characters, so very well written and every single voice actor has done an incredible job; who cares about the skin?

* cries in Dutch *

"Citizens of America... ... ... ...and citizens of the world."

@@Reubel In the end, he just says "my fellow americans" though. That's what OP is referencing.

@@PsychOsmosis Oh, I know. I was just adding a (somewhat modified) quote from one of Georges fellow americans, one Barack Obama (more precisely: some of the opening lines from mr. former president of the US of A:s 2009 Nobel peace prize acceptance speech), to be funny. (I.e. to lightly poke fun at the America First-attitude that both men showcased with their respective wording. This, the poking that is, is, after all, the chief national sport over here in Europe-land :D ).

Not anymore, welcome fellow American. You can pick up your gun and deisel truck at your leisure.

That's not the ancient Greek world view, but it appears to be George's at the moment of writing.

@@Zenju__ . . . yeah, that's a mood if i ever did feel one

@@Zenju__ well, it is 2020. Most of us can probably relate

Philosophers were basically celebrities in ancient Greece, as such the the Greek culture cannot be defined by a single philosophy. That being said the nature, and value of suffering is a fundamental subset of philosophy. Stoicism was a popular Greek philosophy to deal with suffering, Hedonism is another.

No, it's George's projection lol

You should check the NoClip's docu-series on how they developed the game, here on YT

It came out in 2018 as an Epic exclusive, it only hit Steam Early Access in December 2019. Now, it is finally finished and I'm finding it hard to get back into the game. It is a great game but it is now dull after 323 hours.

One thing that is sure about that in relation to real life: if no effort is made to change it for the better, it won't do so on it's own.

Lol George is reading too far in to it

You know that english teacher that thought every cigar pen and curtain had a hidden meaning?

I got that vibe from Athena too, it didn't even register to me that she was "black" I was just like "ooh, she's got stoney skin!"

With Athena maybe, but dionysis and ares both have immistakebly dark brown skin

It was probably a primer since the latest adaptation of Troy had a mostly black cast and Greeks where furious at that cultural imperialism by the people who made it

@@ZontarDow Which adaptation? Total War?

@@policesquad It's this one I reckon "Troy: Fall of a City" (3.8/10 on IMDB)

@@ZontarDow >cultural imperialism Is this the replacement for "Cultural Marxism" because now everyone knows it's a meaningless buzzword made for people still stuck in the 2015 gamergate mind prison. In this case the "blackwashing" is bound up in so much subjectivism that George's statements preachiness gets diluted to nothing. As for the show? Just don't watch it and stop going on 4chan.

@@icyjiub2228 "...a meaningless buzzword made for people still stuck in the 2015 gamergate mind." Is this projection?

Found the idiot

@@oplinger Glad to know you found yourself.

@@oplinger That's uncalled for.

He can never actually escape hell and the boulder can never be pushed up the hill, but we can still find meaning in trying. That's the point of mentioning existentialism in the vid, or interpreting it in the game, as George relates it to his own experiences.

You are quite correct, other than the bit about how the gods are depicted, the video careens off into exploring the actual myths rather than the game's story and themes. Still a good video but you could take Hades out of it completely and almost nothing would change.

Literally the only reason why 4chan isn't bitching up a storm is because they're too busy jerking off to the characters.

It's the usual nonsense from racist Gamers TM with Concerns about Historical Accuracy.

Never let facts get in the way of a narrative. It's the KZfaq way!

Entire video is like that. He imagined whole Athena black debacle just to make himself look good afterwards.

Can that be right? The war is ongoing from what I remember from the dialogue (unless I skimmed over it too fast), and Achilles fought and died in that war. Based on dialogue with him (and the fact that he trained Zagreus) he’s been in the underworld for a long time, so the Trojan War has been long over.

Achilles is in the underworld and what is time really in the underworld? He could be there for 10000 years or 10 seconds for all we know.

@St. Justice I do remember hearing that the Trojan war was a long one but don’t quote me on that one

ilikecookies230 ooo yeah that’s right, makes sense now

They also explicitly state that Achilles in game is the hero of the Trojan War. They state that if you talk to Achilles enough that other characters or gods comment on you talking to him. Or using the spear enough

Yep... that just drives the point for me that the skin colors were just an aesthetic choice and George going so into detail about an explanation was just odd.

I know there were more complainers on twitter, but this game has had such a positive reception that they were drowned out. Same with on /v/

@@dumbiepatch Makes sense. Twitter thrives off polarization and breeds all kinds of insanity, because with the character limit and the way the interface works it's practically impossible to offer an effective rebuttal to slogans, paroles and standardized political talking points. Imo its discourse is not representative of anyone other than "people who spend too much time on twitter". I wish we would just stop paying attention to it.

@@dumbiepatch Thats like making a 15 minute video complaining about how much trash there is in the trash bin.

Well there are lots of comments here: mention a character with anything other than snow white skin in a video game and suddenly they come running apparently

Why would you still go on /v/? Boards culture died long ago, it's reddit town now

Have you not heard? "There is no escape."

@@policesquad nice try, HADES

Blizzic good vids man

If it makes you feel better, it doesn't spoil anything you wouldn't know about after a few hours

Also on a different tangent I always found it awesome that there are elephants mentioned in the Iliad when the Ethiopians arrive

Maybe men would usually be more tanned than women due to women staying inside more often

Z @@PirateArr

Its not something most people here care about either. Its just a vocal minority that gets a lot of screen time and attention

@@DylanJo123 nah. race IS a huge thing in the USA. People love talking about it and victimizing on it.

@@cleit1802 I must be lucky where i live then

Stop bragging.

You are American where it matters. Right there.

And yet some people get mad from simply seeing black people in things

@@WickedKnightAlbel Raping ancient culture to push BLM agenda is a pathetic way to present your case. USA boys are out of controls

robert nomok Molding previous systems and culture to make it fit current times is how culture changes.

Oh no I started a culture war

@@gaddag1477 Culture of different nature that you changed to push agenda? I smell hypocrisy considering whining about cultural apropriation same crowd like to do.

You bastard, you genius.

Honestly, yeah. There isn't any real racial coding with the Olympians at all. And I think Eurydice only has so much coding with her because she's kinda anachronistic compared to everyone else besides maybe Zag, so it's easier to read those kind of elements into her.

Yep. In a further irony to the situation, Bunnyhop is doing the same thing. He's from a multiethnic society so he's choosing to reinterpret the gods to his own perceptions, rather than the Greeks. Irony abounds!

Stop it dude you're making too much sense and taking away George's SJW brownie points

@@eleccy It's not ironic, in fact it supports George's point. The game is a product of present game developers, and as such views the Greek gods through the cultural lens of today, just as the Greeks acknowledged that their own depictions of their gods were a reflection of their own culture.

​@@oisinobroin442 That may well be true but it can still be ironic. George refers, or at least attempts to interpret pottery as a factual basis for his claims. It's ironic to me that this is his approach given that he then calls the Roman use of the same methods as akin to imperialism and the twisting of facts to keep an empire together. On an unrelated note, I don't think a single character in the game would fit the modern interpretation of a black person (possibly Eurydice but her fro is a shrub!), but I wouldn't care if they did. I also haven't seen any notable rejection of the supposedly black gods in the games, other than a few mostly disregarded comments on a few youtube videos. I just find it odd the need to look at pottery when just claiming reinterpretation is enough for me and most people.

@@eleccy Yeah the more I read the comments here the more I realise there was some controversy around the release of the game. Before this video the only other exposure I had to it was skipping through a pretty positive endorsement of the gameplay, mechanics, polish etc, and I never gave second thought to the representation of the cast. Unfortunately the loudest voices are the ones that get addressed, and these days people kick up a fuss over black people in video games because of SJWs or some other bogeymen (not accusing you of doing so, but even in this thread someone has brought them up) when as you said there are simpler answers like reinterpretation through a modern lens, or even that the devs just wanted to. Anyway, happy trails! (Edited out a typo)

I had a simular problem. I thought the channel was dead. I last tunned in at the beginning of the year.

ah yes, "personalized" in the sense that youtube decides what you should be notified for. that's some funny newspeak.

I assume he likes it. But I too would have liked at least some mention of how he felt the game deals with these themes and if it's good in that regard. Again, I assume it is.

With a 98% positive score on Steam (take a look at the *noclip* documentary on the game's creation), I'm pretty sure almost everybody loves this game, George included.

Looking at the gameplay, he’s maxed out at least 2 relics, and has ‘hiscovered’ patroclus’ name, so from than we can reasonably deduce that he’s played this game for a bit at least

Probably will have to listen to the podcast to find out. Dad and Sons has definitely become the mainline George content since this channel gets updated for what if feels like once every 2 months

It's a rephrasing of Camus' famous argument

Albert Camus on his Essay named "The Myth of Sisyphus". Great read, highly recommend it if you're at all interested in philosophy.

Whatever you need to tell yourself to cope with the actual unfolding of events. I would much more recommend taking actions necessary to make the world a better place, than pretend that a positive future is inevitable.

@@tomasvallecillo9885 You can take whatever action you want, man. Just know that the data shows that the world is trending towards being safer, freer, more prosperous and more equal than ever before, even if it doesn't feel that way. It may dip into bad periods, but this trend is pretty concrete.

@@TheAtlasReview With all respect, vaguely waving to the concept of "The data" proving your point isn't proof of much. Isn't it a bit arrogant to tell everyone to ignore a set of facts for another set of facts, just because one of those sets of facts mean that things aren't going well? If it's your way of dealing with the anxiety of a climate crisis that we continue not to address, an economy that is quickly consolidating at the very top, with political and economic institutions that refuse to acknowledge any reform, then go ahead. Trends towards an improving quality of life is not a guarantee. Pretending everything is fine, is another day that you can be fine not doing anything about very real crises that may or may not occur in your lifetime. EDIT: Sorry, rereading this, it sounds pretty harsh. I understand what you're saying, but it is belittling to those who are trying to do something about the future. Hopefully you can see where I'm coming from.

@@tomasvallecillo9885 I didn't come with sources prepared because I didn't expect this would be contentious. But HumanProgress is a great place to start. Even if you live somewhere that is quite objectively getting worse - like Turkey, or Hong Kong - it might lift your mood to consider that it is probably just a temporary downturn on a generally upwards-trajectory. I'm not telling you to stop fighting for change or anything like that. If people became complacent, the data I'm talking about would likely start to slip. We aren't a utopia yet, and there's still work to do. All I'm saying is that people shouldn't let themselves become depressed by the gloom, and that if they find that happening to themselves then it might be heartening to look at the improvements that are being made. I think we've just had some miscommunication. All the best.

@@TheAtlasReview It's a glass half-full vs. half-empty conversation, kinda. Some people are motivated by pessimism, and some optimism. Different approaches.

How's that degree serving you

@@buttholesurfer1266 really terribly. Don’t make the same mistake

@@12kwh ha no surprises here

Jesus being interpreted by European artists as white: Problematic

It's amazing how you spot on summarized a 15 minute video in two paragraphs.

That's pretty much this channel in a nutshell, George thinks he's way smarter than he actually is. He's a pseud in general

@@buttholesurfer1266 I wouldn't go that far, typically I enjoy the reads in these videos and even if I don't entirely agree I respect George's nuanced perspective. It's just to me, in this video, it seems more like an attempt at trying to construct a poetic reading around sigh summoningly timely and mundane issues. He's looking to mythology to explain why sensational politics makes him sad when maybe he should look at Diocleation retiring to farm cabbages and figure there's a point where you need to take a break from it.

@@suturesunder3465 nah this vid is just his usual shtik, but normally they are written much better

That's what she said...about COVID.

The title clearly says "Story & Theme Discussion," not "Gameplay Review." If you can't be bothered to read, you're going to be disappointed.

@@gregoryyoung1141 Yeah buddy I still enjoyed the video. I fucking love greek myths but god damn I was wondering about this game just a little. This is a clear left turn for sbh, so don't be a superior asshole if people question why he doesn't talk about the game directly.

@@SaintZ42 The game is great. It does get a little sappy in places but overall, the game is fantastic. Many say they don't like it simply because they died a lot in the beginning but of course, that is to be expected.

@@SaintZ42 Hades has great combat and satisfying progression, though the RNG can make some runs feel bad (but the game is super easy to mod if you want to mitigate that). It can also get kind of grindy, but it has so much dialogue that after 50+ runs (each of which takes between 30-50 minutes to complete if you survive), I still haven't heard everything. Hitting credits is more of a midway point than the end of the game.

Its a rogue lite, you run through procederuely generated dungeons whilst unlocking new shit to make newer runs different. Unlike other rogue like/lites you dont find you weapons in the dungeon but you pick one before started a run (Sword Bow ect.) then find buffs for that weapon and power set in the dungeon taking away an obtuse part of RNG in the genre. I never played it but this is what i've gathered having watched a stream.

“I’m a big pissbaby and can’t handle characters having different skin tones!! Waaaaaaah Life is so unfair waaah”

I don't even think the game depicts her as black tbh. Looks more like just shadow or swarthy complexion as her facial structure and hair are obviously European or at a push Arabic. It's open to interpretation at least which was clever of the developers to do.

@@gayshaymin3712 wow strawman much dude?

@@NeverSaySandwich1 haha dude is just a troll. Ignore him.

@@NeverSaySandwich1 The Leftboot Lickers cannot seem to debate without logical fallacies.

The Illiad is awesome. It reads like an e-sport battle report.

He's been on a Greek mythology trip for a while now, I _think_ it started back when he was playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey with a copy of the actual Odyssey to read during his playthrough.

You should definitely read the Iliad since the Oddyssey is essentially a sequel to it and both the Greeks and Roman's held the Iliad in higher regard.

Yea he can talk circles to justify pretty much any stance. He could make a video explaining why a game is good, bad, and it would sound legit.

What's he being biased or stupid about here?

I did a quick lookup on google and it seems to confirm what George says. Could you cite sources to the contrary? You make an interesting point.

Yeah I'd like to read this too, can you elaborate?

Aithiopian means he whose face looks burnt. Αιθίοπας = αιθ + ὄψ. (opsis/Όψις) Όψ = Όψις = view/face/to see smth with your eyes. Ancient Greeks called them "Αιθίοπες" to differentiate their race from theirs. They called them "burnt people" because they looked as if their skin was charred and made entirely black from the sun. Source: I am Greek and I have studied ancient Greek and know almost every word's etymology. It's mandatory in Greek education to study Ancient Greek for 6 years. I also took up Philosophy in my university, making it a total of almost 10 years of Ancient Greek studies.

@@plaguecocktor7010 soooo...... They were Tanned enough that the greeks thought they were cooked. So they were black. That's what that means. I'm sorry but this anti-progressive grasping for straws is so fucking hilariously opaque.

@@icyjiub2228 To be honest that's a shameful disregard on your part for the historical knowledge Plague has brought to the comment section. What they are saying is true and you're too busy trying to infer some sort of scurrilous reason for it to actually take it in.

literally

🔥

ok

If it's literally fire, then it's not really a game is it

I am literally making this reply.

Kanye is/was divinely inspired

That would be existential nihilism, which is a distinct philosophy. To quote Wikipedia, "Existentialism is a form of philosophical enquiry that explores the nature of existence by emphasizing experience of the human subject" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

You're missing a step, since there is no meaning in the world you need to find one for yourself, and that's a good thing

@@BaneDane_JB I know it very well, it's just not relevant to my point. EDIT: Actually, it proves my point, if the meaning is already chaos, then you wouldn't need to find a meaning for yourself.

@@Msoulwing I should really read Camus.