Still a better love story that the whole Rose Tyler melodrama.

That’s not gaslighting, that’s a self fulfilling prophecy.

The key point and tragedy of The Time Travellers Wife is exactly that - they have no free will to choose each other because time travel shenanigans mean it's already happened

That could have been a good thing if Moffatt had resisted the urge to turn it into some sort of love story. Keep us guessing for a couple of episodes (not dragged out to boredom point) as to whether she's a villain or not, then find out she's just some random time traveller who keeps bumping into him.

That's because they met out of order and he wasn't 'caught up' to where she was in their relationship.

That's true, but we have plenty of examples of the doctor having good chemistry with people he's just met, which is how most companions become companions. Most of the time with river, especially in Matt Smith's run, he just seems irritated by her@@gusmonster59

IMO, that is part of the point. They keep meeting in roughly opposite order meaning that almost every time we see them onscreen together, one of them is in love while the other is still warming up to the idea. It's not surprising that they often seemed awkward together. It's a standard tale of a man and a woman slowly growing to love each other over time - except each of them is doing it in the opposite order relative to the other one. :/ (Also IMO a lot of it is down to Eleven being such an awkward manchild. It's hard to believe him as in a mature relationship, regardless of who it's with).

@irrevenant3 You're right, it is a great idea. But in my opinion, for a movie or a mini series, not so great for Dr Who. The romantic entanglement of the Rose and Martha years always seemed out of place to me. Then, trying to develop this sort of love story just got in the way of other stories and is too spread out to be effective. And definitely over as long a period as Moffatt spread it out. It could never work properly with the change of actors in one of the roles, especially as you say, with the main one being a man child.

I like the conversation they have in “Angels Take Manhattan” after River breaks her wrist and lies about it. The doctor looks hurt by her joke, and used his regeneration energy to heal her

it seems like the doctor fell in love with her just cause he felt forced by his destiny already written

There were two romantic story arcs, overlaid in different directions. It takes time for the Doctor to genuinely fall for River (the moment Jessica mentions in Angels Take Manhattan is one example) until by the time he's Twelve he is completely in love with her. On the other hand we see River first try to kill the Doctor, decide to save him for a variety of reasons then, over time, grow to become completely in love with him. That the two of them aren't at the same point romantically and emotionally for most of their relationship is a big part of the point.

Yes! See also Moffat's love of "stylised emotion" and motifs, such as someone crying a single teardrop. That just doesn't happen in real life, just for Moffat's characters. Russell's crying characters would have snot all over their faces and mascara everywhere.

All drwho love is 100% love,,.. ok,, so the idea for a drwho fan ,, is to have an in sequence pearing ,, the relationship outcome depends on the audience members own circle of fellow whovians & friends fanfiction,,, ,, so hee it is ,, withover 8 billon years of love storie ,,

@@TheKeyringofRassilon-xz6wp LOL!! And that's just the guys! ;-)

That is the exact opposide of how I feel about Moffat and RTD.

@@gameinguy Interesting.... how come?

Yes! 11 felt like a little boy who thought girls had cooties!

I definitely see what you mean, but personally I feel like Peter's doctor was much more of the asexual grandfather type than Matt's was, I always felt like he was closer to a naive and innocent child mentality a lot of the time

Yep, were her meeting cappaldi the first time they meet, it would maybe work, and no her being amys and rorys and the tardis child. Too much, way too much moffat. Also like the doctors are basically new persons, rose, had a relationship with 2 doctors only. River could like just be friends with most doctors, .

Fun fact: In none of the TV episodes River is in has she passed The Bechdel Test :D [Just one more reason she has never felt like a real character I guess lol. Literally all her screen time is spent with her talking about The Doctor... And that's it :\ ]

She went from being a fun take on Bernice Summerfield into a walking fetish repository/womanchild

Exactly my feeling!

To me it’s not that strange. I sing in a choir and our choir director always tells us: the first and last songs of a concert are the most important. Barely anyone will remember the middle bits unless they’re particularly amazing or stand out much, but everyone will remember how it ended. Listeners have to get hooked at the beginning, entertained in the middle, and wowed at the end. It’s not quite the same with stories but to some level you can compare it. River got a banger intro and goodbye and that’s what most casual viewer will remember in the end.

@@macejetzer897That's a very good point, especially when there are just so many stories "in the middle".

Angels Take Manhattan was a good episode for their romance arc

Also, totally off-topic, but it was also unbelievable that the River Song character was an archeologist because outside of using those particular skills to essentially stalk the Doctor, we don't really see her have much interest in the things that archeologists would normally have interest in. Like for example, characters like Daniel Jackson from the Stargate franchise & of course Indiana Jones from his franchise, we see them both display clear knowledge, interest, & enthusiasm in their field. But with River, I couldn't believe she was an archeologist through her actions.

imagine writing a couple that not only most of the time seems one-sided and one of them obviously pines for other people, more than he ever did for his so called love interest, not only they don't even have a correct timeline of relationship which get confused and wonder they even met each other properly or not, not only they spend half of the time being enemies. But also the fact that River was the daughter of the couple whom the Doctor could consider as his younger siblings or students, he literally watched her mother's growth. this relationship wasn't just fake, it had all the red flags as well

major agree

The singing towers were like the honeymoon/golden years that they didn’t get to get because their timelines were out of sync. In my mind, they worked the best when they were at similar points in timeline (middle of the series/about halfway for both of them, or at the end when they finally sync up). River has a catalog of all of the doctors faces, so I think she was prepared to meet a doctor that wasn’t familiar with her. There was so much missed opportunity to have the wackyness of their dynamic with 11 mature into a real romance arc with 12

none of this makes them any less fake

It's like people who doesn't see real love between The Doctor and River are afraid of admitting it, because the rest of the world likes their relationship😄

Hm... I can't talk that much about 11, but even then, they had genuine love after the Doctor discover that River was Amy's daughter. 12 was 100% in love with her. This thing about "time has a script and you have to follow" is not real. We've seen the time change multiple times, it's fluid. There's an episode in season 13 of the classic series that the Doctor shows Sarah Jane the future if they didn't stop a certain creature, but then they stopped and the future changes. They are not forced to follow anything

And when they finally had some chemistry together with Capaldi's Doctor it was too late since that was her last episode, thanks Moffat.

​@SammEater right they feel so natural and realistic. It's a crime we didn't get more with them

It feels like River forced the relationship because she is supposedly a psychopath- trained to kill the Doctor. The trouble with this? Psychopaths do not charge- they do not experience emotions. It is all forced and unreal- it becomes a silly caricature.

The Doctor caring more about Adric is such a blow to River, now that you mention it haha

15 does mention River in the Giggle, but no more significantly than any other lost companions. She's just a name in a list

I think he says he loved her and Rose in "The Giggle."

@@HuntingViolets That was Sarah Jane, he never said anything about River.

I think he loved her-- he just wasn't in love with her.

I mean her "fixed point in time" was to get trapped forever in a comfortable digital prison, so it makes sense.

it feels more like they groomed River to love the Doctor and the Doctor at least at first just kinda went along with it.

totally agree, this was my read as well. the relationship never clicked for me until the darillium episode.

100% agree! at the start, it’s obviously pretty messed up, but i think the show doesn’t really… deny it? like it’s quite clear how messed up it all is 😅😅

River's also kind of weird in that everything kind of jumps the shark after it's revealed she's Melody Pond. There's just a real big disconnect between newly regenerated River and the River prior to that. They don't feel like the same character.

@@Aerowind I can see that, but my take is that until she actually regenerated into River she was very much still under the control of the brainwashing and training that Madame Kovorian and The Silence put her through. My theory is that she wasn't fully free to be herself until after the Doctor faked his death at Lake Silencio. Think about it this way, she was stolen from her parents, underwent years of brainwashing and torture, escaped her captors, died of some disease, infection or starvation only to regenerate into a toddler. Then she sought out her parents so that she could grow up with them. My take on it is that not only was she was dealing with PTSD and while with her parents she was still unable to be herself because they wouldn't have understood then that their best friend was their future abducted daughter. That's pretty dark to even read the bullet points of, which is probably why it wasn't really covered in much detail in the show.

YES as someone who adores the husbands of River Song and never really felt like the doctor really loved River until then (I distinctly remember thinking in that episode “oh he DOES love her after all”) I LOVE your take on that episode.

Agreed

I appreciate that Harbo threw himself on the pyre for this one.

...and then proceeds to see the comments saying "yeah, I agree they never really had it throughout 11th's run".

Yeah, that moment in _Angels_ made sense in context, but given future elaborations like _Day_ and _Time’s_ regeneration count and _Husbands’_ clarification that River had no idea Eleven wasn’t the last, it’s kinda sabotaged.

Okay...you're right Moffat decided to bring the 13 incarnations I to cannon at the last moment.Buuuut, if all the doc had was a last bit of energy left - maybe just to heal a wound - or maybe to attempt one last regeneration a la rhe master in classic who. It actually makes so much more sense how she gets angry when u realize this is the last of the last of his regeneration ability from what they know. River gave 10+ regeneration to save the doc, it wouldn't be overkill at all for him to waste an entire regeneration on her ..I'd say he owes her one! I'd say thos secrn only makes sense with the time of the doctor as context!

Actually, if she knows that's his last life and his regeneration energy is only useful for healing, she may feel it's a waste to use it on her instead of himself, which is VERY in character for her. She sees genuine affection as "stupid sentimentality" and doesn't really embrace that sentimentality until Darillium it seems.

@@littleredruri yep, always made sense like that to me tbh.

He was probably happy to see her cause even he thought for the longest time that his 11 would be his last, he probably thought he would never see her again.

I mean I forgive the cheating thing since wasn't the Doctor cheating on her at least emotionally with Clara when they were 11 and 12? I honestly think romance is hard with a character with the Doctor since there can never be an endpoint since their love interest will eventually leave the show but the Doctor character will stay till the show ends so it just becomes a weird "so who are they going to fall in love with next"

I interpret the doctor (and maybe time lords in general I’m not sure) as non-monogamous considering a lot of the people they may fall in love with will only live for 1/100 of their lifespan and they live such a fluctuating lifestyle. They may not see each other for years at a time and there seems to be an implicit understanding that their love exists in the background of whatever adventure they’re up to next. In “the husbands of River Song” 12 doesn’t seem upset about her having outside relationships, just about the fact that she seemingly forgot all about him. And when he has outside “situationships” he never shows concern about his marriage, not even in a “oh if she finds out she might get upset” way. We just don’t see enough of their relationship to truly judge, but I’m pretty confident it’s an open marriage and they’re both okay with that

I agree 100%, but also Benny would never let herself get that caught up in the Doctor; she knows him way too well and, well, she's an adult with a life outside of the Doctor. 😂 Hell, she slept with Eight and just made jokes instead of getting all up in her head about it. River is written as a woman who has somehow only ever had one true romantic relationship in her entire life; it's wild.

Soooo much of Moffat's writing feels like fanfic! And I don't mean the good kind. Like cmon man, you're meant to be a professional.

Shup up, Rose fangirl.

@@mayotango1317 shut it

@@mayotango1317 👎👎👎

So is normal that a 19 years old teenager Rose is in love with the Doctor?

​@@mayotango1317 Why not? He represents a way for Rose to live a bigger life than she ever would on her own.

@@valolafson6035 Is like a teacher likes his young student.

Day of the Moon kind of references that during the showdown with the Silence. The Doctor points out she likes shooting people and literally says "I shouldn't like that. Kind of do, a bit.", showing he doesn't care that she's violent. Which is strange. It could be a simple case of mischaracterisation, but it could also be a sign of a toxic relationship. The Doctor is so in love with her that he ignores the bad stuff she does. Which could've opened up to an interesting story of River getting worse and worse and the Doctor turning a blind eye until he has to be told by Amy and Rory to open his eyes and stop her.

She's the yin to his yang. They balance each other out.

It makes no sense to put her in classic stories since ten didn't know her!

im with her

@@Arizonaguy1856 no idea who that is, but I'm with her too xD

I was thinking the same thing

​​@@andynovak8347 it's a spin-off channel of whatculture

It's all i could think about 😂

I highly doubt Jodie would have had the same chemistry under chibnal

​@@GalvatronoverI genuinely loved Jodie Whitaker's Doctor and enjoyed many of the episodes in that era even though, I may not have loved some of the directions they took the canon of Dr. who. I loved the combination of companions and the performer they chose for the Master - though I'm so sick of the repetitive unchanging villainery of the Master. Every time the Master shows up, I'm like, "oh, it's them again. Sigh."

This. I hated the pair until 12 was there. Capaldi killed it

She was so much more suited for 12. Too bad we only had 1 episode with them.

and even 12 spend much more time mourning for other people (especially Clara) while moved on from River soon

Still better that Rose Tyler melodrama romantic soap opera.

@@mayotango1317 but at least the Doctor and Rose connection was there on screen, I didn't like that story either but it didn't derail the show Ike river did

@@phantomsidious2934 River is kinda Romana in classic, a equal to the Doctor.

@@phantomsidious2934 Sorry but Rose almost destroy the universe to get back with his Doctor and she never cares.

@@mayotango1317 umm...to a certain extent...but I would argue that Romana learnt things from the doctor and earned her status as being an equal as her time went on. River just automatically acts like she's his equal because she knows more about his future than the Doctor himself does

Yeah idk I like the novel but Moffat's obsession with it is tiresome and repetitive. Imagine if I was put in charge of Doctor Who and decided to make 80% of the arcs and character relationships I wrote into homages to Halo. There's a point where homage becomes a disservice to both the work it's in and the work it's referencing.

Yes! I totally agree

And maybe someone on gallifrey who he had kids with

Is that he moved on very quickly

@@mrdr0161 he didn't

very good point about stalker part

No, Rose is more toxic.

@@mayotango1317 I said literally nothing about Rose, are you replying to the wrong comment?

​@@tjet34I think both of you are kinda talking past each other. You said that The Doctor and River's relationship is toxic, and Mayotango said that they think Doctor and Rose's relationship was more toxic.

@@mayotango1317 you have no idea what toxic means, but of course you should look at the mirror to know the meaning

@@VelociraptorsOfSkyrim which is untrue

Nah, it's mentioned a lot that time isn't all that concrete.

@@Aerowindtime is a big ball of wibbly stuff, which means it basically works exactly the way you think it would but all of our plot holes magically aren’t plot holes anymore

By the time that the Time of the Doctor episode came around, we the audience thought that he had already did Darillium with River due to that mini-sode that came out before.

Sorry but Rose is kinda toxic.

@@mayotango1317 How is that relevant to their comment

@@_MyNameIsAJ_ Rose make the Doctor worst. While the Doctor makes River a better person.

@@mayotango1317 such a delusion

Still better that the Rose Tyler melodrama.

​@@mayotango1317so?

@@mayotango1317 nah, rose is the actual opposite. at least their relationship developed naturally from mutual trust and respect to gentle love without all the weird unneeded sexual stuff that happens with river constantly

@@animasssola And in Doomsday, when the Doctor tells her that she will never see his mother again and Mickey does come with him to close the wall between universes...his response is a cold and indifferent "So?".

what's new lmao

I haven't seen any wrathful comments so far.

I’ve actually been pleasantly surprised by the comments section thus far. It’s generally in agreement, and also largely respectful and logical.

not mine

When we first meet River the Doctor she is married to is a much older Doctor then DT and MS. This is why the realship does not work with MS because he is not her Doctor. PC is her Doctor- that’s why it feels more natural. Still loathe the whole romantic arc

@@christallaktorides6904 To be honest, I don’t think the character was all that well written up to that point. It seemed very uneven to me. I love the idea though. Relationships can certainly feel that way, and impossible nonsense that somehow feels true is kinda what the show is all about, in my opinion.

So is normal that a teenager Rose is in love with a ancient Time Lord.

She acts like it's the worst thing he's ever done because she doesn't see herself as worth an expenditure of his literal life force.

@@mayotango1317 I think it's normal for the teenager to be smitten with an older man who's an adventurer able to show her all of time and space. Whether you agree with his reciprocating (or even whether you think he did reciprocate) is another question.

​@@mayotango1317 Well, when you look at how many teens and 20 year Olds who fawn over David Tennant, a 52 year old married man, I'd say yeah, that's fairly realistic and normal.

@tjet34, in my opinion, since it is an expenditure of his life force, she should appreciate it even more, and be honored he chose to honor and love her in that manner, instead of throwing it back in his face. I'd be honored if someone chose to do something like that for me. It would show me I was loved and cherished.

He would have changed his name if he was as Captain Scarlet’s real name is Paul Metcalfe.

Yes. This.

no! he mourns for his other companions more than he ever does for her and the fact that he already knows how her story ends, every action of his just screams obligation than love

@altinaykor364 If you'd rather see it so negatively, I doubt I can convince you. Nardole spelled it out, that the Doctor was in mourning for River, but I doubt you believe him either.

@@CritterKeeper01 "The Doctor was in mourning for River" tell me how long that mourning was? was he broken and shattered, at least the same way he did for Clara? or how about the long long time he spend pining for Rose, the way anyone by slightest interaction could recognize? even recently, while mentioning every loved one he lost, River seemed more like a person amongst 1000 people and no where near Sarah Jane or Rose. you call that love, I feel sorry for you

Well I know a DW fanfic that sort of has that premise BUT it’s not with River as the leading lady, but with another woman who knows the Doctor’s true name (in tv show canon). It’s Hiraeth by sofiadragon (on AO3) and has a post Shada (but preTime War) Professor Chronotis meet an older post metacrisis Donna Noble who used her lottery winnings to make up a charity that keeps being prepared to respond and/or lessen various disasters, and Chronotis wanted to meet her and see how such an important woman basically is flying under the radar (Shawn was getting most of the credit even though he wasn’t involved with the charity at all). Anyway, Chronotis pokes around in Donna’s incredible brain and stumbles across some regeneration energy and incorrectly thinks that she’s an improperly fobwatched time tot that’s being hidden from the time war by her important daddy (he sensed male thoughts in her mind hence he thinks her daddy that worships her hid her)… Since Chronotis was just recalled back to early time war Gallifrey he takes Donna with him because he couldn’t see any memory of her having a fobwatch and she needed more life/regeneration energy to be able to regenerate (he had stabilized the barriers in her mind but he knew that she needed help from Gallifrey to be truly fixed)… Chronotis’ newly exposed telepathic abilities was enough for the Gallifreyan high council to give him a brand new set of 13 lives in the hopes that his abilities will help with the war effort, and since one of Gallifrey’s last remaining instincts is to protect time tots (which Donna technically qualifies as) they give her a full set of 13 lives as well. Prior to Donna regenerating Chronotis telepathically (with her permission) sees some of Donna’s recurring nightmares about the war (prior to her remembering that she travelled with a post time war Doctor) and Chronotis believes that she’s a seer… Chronotis had already adopted her to help keep her safe while also keeping him out of fighting in the war, but her being a seer changes Chronotis’ plans/actions since he learns that Gallifrey itself is going FUBAR… and if Chronotis is anything he’s a survivor and he has a very good ace up his sleeve with his new granddaughter being a hidden seer… Anyway, Donna regenerates into a preteen, remembers traveling with the Doctor, remembers and keeps hidden the information about the metacrisis and the Doctor, tests out from as many classes as she can, tries to figure a way for herself and her new grandfather (and others) to hopefully survive the war and the Moment/Bad Wolf… oh and she starts a tow company via using the DoctorDonna’s idea to fast grow some adorable TARDISes (with free will and personalities) that she personally designed based on the Doctor’s TARDIS/Old Girl (because wars and armies need resources which Gallifrey is losing without bringing anything in prior to her tow company so she hires misfits and others who see the writing on the wall about Gallifrey). She actually was going to try to avoid the Doctor until she was outside of the time war (and then promptly put her foot up his *ss once they’re synced up after the metacrisis), but she forgot that the Doctor is liable to be found at some of the bigger disasters that she’s being called out to help… SO she meets and falls in love with her future past husband’s earlier selves (she still remembers his true name and a lot of technical knowledge from the metacrisis but most of his personal memories are gone from her mind)… BUT she basically does the EXACT OPPOSITE of River because she wants to avoid forming ANY fixed points if she can… she’s figured out that her survival (and her employees’ survival) depends on her/them having a flexible timeline like the Doctor has… If the Doctor gets too nosy she starts singing/humming “who’s afraid of the big bad wolf” to warn him off…which he actually listens to… so they are able to develop a basic level of respect, trust, love, and are determined to NOT lock the other into a fixed point if at all possible… and the Doctor that her first self travelled with is noticing that his past is being changed (for the better) and Donna’s human self is there when he keeps getting sick from his personal past being changed… which I think time lady Donna might be getting an update about as well… and time lady Donna uses what she learned while she travelled with the Doctor and is applying it to help her and hers survive…and possibly to help Gallifrey as well to help lessen the damage to time and space from the war… Yes, it’s a Doctor/Donna fanfic but it definitely has a good concept of how crossed timelines SHOULD work WITHOUT backing someone into a corner and it takes care of the River issue as well… It’s not so much that they’re each going in opposite directions so much as they’re pin balling around each other’s time line as the timelines dictate (the time war was even shifting which Doctor Chronotis dealt with for the Shada debacle and was still in flux between Four, Five, or Eight dealing with Shada)… The author replied to some of the comments on AO3 including how she was going to have Time Lady Donna meet the Third Doctor while he was in exile for tea (and for him to have more intelligent conversations with someone who’s not trying to kill him or turn him dark) and they’d basically start a victorian courtship that way and that the Doctor(s) basically thinks that she’s the bees’ knees (a non arrogant time lady who acts more like a human than a time lady and who understands emotions, let alone understanding and primarily agreeing with most of the Doctor’s principles, is probably something that the Doctor could only dream of).