Has the athletic made tifo boring?

WE NEED TIFO FOOTBALL IRL BACK

It’s pretty simple when you think about, pep likes to control and hates unpredictability which makes the game less chaotic and more predictable

I’m a simple man, I see Joe Devine I click

Imagine this, but as a podcast

Can’t Tifo adopt a “positional play” approach where Joe Devine and the crew end up on a podcast?

Finally Joe Devine is back, the only reason anyone has been hanging onto a subscription to this channel

What a stupid question. Why would Pep make football boring? He is coach of ONLY ONE football team. The rest can play whatever they want. What is Guardiola's fault for that?

The real reason City appear to be boring, is because everyone sits in a deep block against them. As time has gone on, more and more teams are willing (and even built to) sit insanely deep against better teams. There are games where teams barely come out of their own third, much less their own half.

Much like Guardiola is trying to drive the chaos out of football, The Athletic are trying to drive it out of Joe. Joe will never be defeated

His more concentration on control was cuz he couldnt win the UCL cuz teams kept screwing him over in crazy ways If youre pep and you get criticized for not winning the UCL you're gonna find a way whatsoever

The problem with Man City's tactical fouls and other team's is that they don't often get booked for it

He's back!

Entertainment is not entirely lost to Jon

I miss the pod with Joe and Alex.

You completely missed the point in the intro. The game was not boring because it ended 0-0. The game was boring because neither team took any risk. One team did not take enough risk to get the ball, the other one only cared about not losing the ball. In a typical 0-0, both teams try to win and score goals but fail to do so. In City vs Arsenal, neither team took the risks necessary to score.

I want Joe Devine to host each and every podcast of The Athletic. And I miss the intro songs of Tifo IRL

I’ve heard absolutely no one try and argue for the merits of that game last week as a spectacle… then up steps Jon Mackenzie

I think this is a question that gets asked every time a tactical system is at the peak of its powers, no doubt some team will come along and make new waves with another tactic and the process will start all over again.

Actually when his city teams were more attacking, they were more vulnerable to counter attacks & hence weren't very successful in the UCL. I'll credit the man Pep says is the most influential manager of the last 20 years: *_De Zerbi_* Coz of him top managers are playing 3 or 4 Cbs & we don't see those flying full backs on both sides as much. Watching Brighton without Mitoma is boring af.

God yes. I can't watch City on a consistent basis, I also thinks he has a way of reshaping a players talent like Grealish to fit his style vs allowing those players to havr a little more freedom to express themselves. I understand why and I appreciate the genius of Pep but much prefer to watch Klopp's Liverpool as opponents always get a real chance or more every match.

Aside from the great content and delivery, the pres here is ace... love the laser, wasp & bee and matching the PiP box frame with the picture frames on set is such a neat touch. You're knocking out the park here, I love it

The problem is every team plays the same way now, play out from the back and high press. In the naughties there was a much bigger variety of styles of play which i think made football more interesting

I do understand it will be boring for the majority of people..but I guess majority of people find it boring because they don’t understand the tactical intricacies happening…but these kind of videos will help a lot and make football more palatable to the genre public..keep this coming guys…

What's boring is everyone trying to play the same way. There is no right and wrong way of playing football. Only the winning and the losing. Thinking you can play Pep's style with Burnley is boring and does not yield results.

I can simplify this for you. Fans don't want to watch football when a team has 80% of the ball, passing the ball side to side. This is why city play more games at 3pm on a Saturday than any other top team. The reason Liverpool v city games aren't boring is klopp adds chaos

Must entertaining games ever were man city vs Liverpool from previous years. But man city get boring when opponents like to park the bus in defend. But if the opponents are open and wants to play like Liverpool, city are fun.

There is no unpredictability in the way Pep and other tactical coaches train their team. It's very much like making players robotic and trying to make them only certain things. This is an issue occurring in football where tactics seems to dominate the uniqueness and creativity of football

Loved the mitchell and webb look reference with the big talk joke!

It's actually great seeing great managers build teams to the highest standard to compete. Mourinho, Klopp and Arteta

Fun video! Thanks for the analysis... COYS

Has pep guardiola made football boring..what a joke..I will go as far to say that he’s been the most important person in modern football..a true revolutionary..for me in a fair world based on merit, he should be the highest paid person in football..even more than all elite footballers..we have never had a manger more important to the team than the players..look at the players manc have lost and still how they perform..the one common denominator has always been pep guardiola..even though he’s not yet at guardiola’s level arteta is the most important person at arsenal than all the football player combined..this is one of the most positive thing that has happened to modern football in my humble opinion 🙏🏻

Good to see Joe back. Good vid!

I've always been entertained by Pep's brand of football. The way they move the ball, create pockets of space and just dominate the opposition is entertaining to watch, at least for me. From Pep's Barcelona, Pep's Bayern to Pep's Man City. Also, for those with an eye for tactics, Pep's teams are great to learn from.

This is a plea for Joe, Alex, JJ and Seb to reunite and bring back Tifo IRL 🙏😥

Loved this video. Keep it up people Especially the last line of the host. It sums up everything.

4-4-2 park the bus or go to cattenacio do a Simeone and just play to not lose or and snatch a goal on a counterattack or set piece in Fergie time no way. Guardiola do change football for better.

I find it really interesting how many seemingly contradictory things are happening in modern football. Games seem boring yet most goals in 60 years. Record points totals for winning the league yet mid-table clubs have way more resources to compete than ever before. Quality on the ball is incredibly important yet top teams are opting to play center backs at full back.

In an attention deficiency era Joe Devine is the crucial link between common man fans and the nerd analysts!

I think any talk on tactical ideology is redundant without dwelving deep into the history of Football and the evolution of tactics. The dutch/spanish positional game is actually the combination of old school positional attack ( having more players inside the box than opposition, crossing to create chances, dribbling to go inside the spaces) and the scottish passing game (playing the ball into your teammates' feet) . With positional advantages and passing , you move up the field.

The thing is, it seemed like both teams didn't really want to play the game. It wasn't "tense" or "intense", like 2 boxers looking to get a punch in, it was like both boxers staying in their respective corners for the whole round apart from a few walkabouts to stretch their legs. The crowd didn't help, obviously, but it really felt like both teams just wanted it to be over from the starting whistle. This wasn't a "good 0-0", even old-school Catenaccio enthusiasts would've cursed this snoozefest.

Interesting conversations on this one, but we're overthinking this: ManCity has made the PL boring because they've won 4 out of 5 of the last titles, they'll likely win this to make it 4 in a row and they'll probably keep winning for the rest of the decade because they have the best squad, fact that won't change since they can keep overspending, and even 115 found violations is not enough to stop them because they have friends in high places.

Yes, he has. Next question

I also liked the part where you guys explained why and how Pep's football changed. The reason Pep or Arteta play four CBs is not because they want to play four CBs, it's because they think it's an advantage to win more football matches. There are experiences and conditions that have made them think that way, and when they think it's no longer an advantage to win matches, I think they will again introduce a new perspective and adjust the dynamic of the team. I saw Mackenzie say on Twitter that he wanted Alonso to come to the Premier League, and now it makes sense. I'm curious to see what the next phase of football will look like, and how the new gravity will change the landscape of elite football.

John is the only guy part of the athletic that doesn’t look and talk like a school prefect

I know this is after the fact but was RM vs City boring ? The City Arsenal game was boring because Arsenal sat back and parked the bus. They were too afraid to take City on.

Football has changed, and it will change again. As a Dutchy, we've seen our NT change - many don't like it. I do. Dutch teams may not have the grandiosity of days gone - they are dangerous, and often allow decent (but not great) players to shine and deliver. It's still a very tactical game, and much more controlled at it. That's how you, maybe, god willing, win a world cup. Not by telling everyone you were actually the best. Koeman once delivered with Ajax in 2002-2003, playing from solid defense. Who knows, maybe he will deliver at the Euros this summer. The time seems right.

It's robot football yes. Positional play stops players from expressing themselves on the pitch

He does not make football boring, his teams always are great. But he does ruin players, makes them just a cog on a machine and kills any individuality. Grealish is the clearest example nowadays.

Some people just dont like possessional play or positional play they prefer direct and ping pong football What i hate more is how people act like hes been playing like thi seen he became a coach

It was going so well, then Duncan spoke an awful lot of nonsense. Saying City’s titles “all blend into one” is actually a joke. I can’t think of a single City season where they have played the same way as the previous one. Pep always changes/adapts. Look at Pep’s team with Sane-Aguero-Sterling. It played wildly differently to now. This idea that City are boring doesn’t hold up when you look at which side has the record for most goals in a PL season. For me, games can be boring predominantly because of how deep and compact opponents play these days. It’s not really anything to do with City. No team would be able to play swashbuckling football against the kind of low blocks City face. Why is it deemed to be City’s fault that everyone else is scared to leave their own half against them? Why not demand the opponents make it more entertaining? It’s a weird take to pin this on City.

I wouldn’t say that Pep makes things less boring; other teams are just making things way more interesting than City have been this season.

I did not expect The Duncan Alexander do have that appearance and I'm moderately surprised I should say

Was that edit of Chelsea celebrating that late win against United a last minute editing job? The table doesn't reflect that game, so I'm guessing it was. If so, love that they put it in to really reinforce that point that it is still a big game.

Finally got to see the guy in the video who has been narrating tactics in Tito football videos

🤓Once again football pundits prove they don't know the (English) language as well as they should 🤓 Boring is a synonym of uninteresting, i.e. an antonym of interesting - boring *_cannot_* be interesting However, interesting can be entertaining, albeit the overlap is likely constrained in some way. ( David Attenborough, Antiques Roadshow, detailed football analysis etc. 😉... ) There seems to be some major confusion between *_entertaining_* and *_exciting_* . Could something be exciting without being interesting ? I can't immediately think of a scenario, since both usually include "hold/capture attention". Being savaged by a 🐻, would not perhaps usually be called interesting, but would certainly hold *_my_* attention... My 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓 work is done here Great video JON 😉keep up the good work 😆

26:28 - i love this take. that arteta doesn't use momentum... in a team you famously only get into if you have a miraculous series of good games from the fringe, then you are run into the ground until someone else gets the same chance. arsenals collapse streaks always coincide with this transition happening at several positions at once. sounds like someone that is only influenced by momentum, and whose success depends on it.

I feel like what you’ve described Leverkusen doing is exactly how city play against inferior opponents…it’s when they’re up against an arsenal who are so defensively sound that things get “boring.” I’d be interested to see how Leverkusen’s tactics look against stronger teams to prove the point you’re trying to make.

@theathletic the only reason i watch the whole video from begining right to end - ads included - is Joe Devine.

To sometimes be bored is a requirement to be excited when there is a really thrilling game. Its just a matter of demand/supply high scoring games are cool because they dont happen that often, if we change the game to make more of them...well then it wont be as exciting anymore

This conversation was more entertaining than city Arsenal game, and this was very boring lol 😂

Yes I can’t stand watching them, it’s like a training match and if you seen one game you have seen them all. Barcelona and Spain 12+ years ago was the same. But if you were the manager be it Pep or Vicente del Bosque it’s fantastic you want to win and control the game. Also if you never watched football before and watched city for the first time you would think is passing the only thing that matters in the sport. I’m irish and into rugby I couldn’t watch most of the six nations for the same reasons to be honest.

When Assna parked the bus..it's not easy to scored

this video should have been longer, and Duncan was fun to have on.

OMG i lived to see the day Joe Devine actually praises Arsenal players

He is exceptional, but exceptional with exceptional players. It is not his fault, but each club has taken over has had extraordinary talent (and wealth) at their disposal. If you aim to play a controlling game with those inherent benefits, you’ll probably control quite a lot of games. He must be an extraordinary communicator to get his teams playing the way he does - that’s indisputable.

Pep hasnt made football boring imo. Its all these other coaches who try copying him

Yes. Next question?

He took the unpredictability out of the game. The very thing that makes football exciting. I can't watch Guardiiolas games since Barca days. He sucks the life out of every game. Just a control freak at the highest level.

This is a very good analysis video. As an Arsenal fan, I think City would have had a better chance of winning if they had attacked more aggressively, as Arsenal were unable to start Martinelli, who is pretty much our only counter attack specialist, in that game, and if City had scored a goal first, City would have been able to hold on to their lead.

Sin bin would be brilliant, imagine the player off for five minutes and the other pushing forward and the dominant team defending then he comes back on and the crowd roar and they go back on attack

Bring back long ball football baby!

Maybe we should have a penalty shootout after the first half if the teams are tied 0-0. Then they continue in the second half with the score line of the between the two halfs penalty shootout that should virtually eliminate the 0-0 games

I don't know why City are being blamed for the City-Arsenal game being boring. Liverpool-City was fantastic because both teams had a go. City-Arsenal was boring because one team came and parked the bus. And it wasn't City.

For me, it is chances, but that is partly based on player quality. I do not want to see park the bus, ever, ever, ever, ever.

I think it was Jonathan Wilson who wrote that if goals are what people want why aren't there 50,000 crowds at Primary School football games? The Bundesliga is written off as a boring league, not just because of Bayern Munich but because there are many faceless teams with no obvious star players, yet it always has the highest goals per game ratio of any of the top 5 so it obviously isn't just about how often the ball hits the back of the net...

they play against parked buses every week. Thats why its seems boring to neutrals. Grealish looked good at Villa coz nobody parked the bus against villa and he had a lot of space to run.

Pep has turned into Del Bosque, whilst Xabi Alonso is the new early version of Pep.

Definitely! Every player plays the same every team plays the same they are coached since kids the same they are athletes first and footballers second, the players are told exactly what to do and if they dont follow they won't play. Players like Zidane, Scholes,Cantona would not make it today. Players are just cogs in a system,when Pep subbing a player all he has to say is do exact same thing as player coming off! Manchester United seems to be the most old skool and if they get a mixture of flair, exciting, character expressing football along with a rigid control style when needed we would be great but you need great players for that. Pep plays safe,passing, boring, no risk football but because he has best players in the world one will eventually score

You've focused on Pep and man City, but there were two sides on the pitch. The fact that two of the contenders for the league are playing a very similar style of play is a telling one. Risk averse tactics that rely on skills adapted to relatively strict principles of positional play are becoming somewhat hegemonic. They aren't there yet and hopefully they won't be (go Klopp, Ange and teams with heart!). You have to also add that it's not just boredom plain and simple. When any of us look at man City we know this is a club that has ridiculous wealth. City aren't the origin of obscene money entering club football, but they have contributed significantly in enhancing and consolidating the money factor, this diminishing competition, tilting the field in the favour of the haves (big 6) and the have notes (all others), not to mention that it stinks when you think you're what you're watching is backed (and often fronted) by a grotesque display of wealth. Much of it ill begotten wealth. That context is important to consider the sentiment sides line man City inspire. That's why when they play the percentages, being risk averse by keeping the ball. It makes the rest of us scowl. You've got everything. Do better. At least give us the circus. The last comment - that the uber wealthy club owners care about enhancing their status and/or wealth and not about what fans feel, is an important truth that reflects the changes of our time. (I would've said winning but then Man utd prove me wrong by staying a wealthy big brand while not winning). Fans still feel for the game, it's cultural heritage, it exists as a collectively shared good, people build memories and communities around it; that cultural heritage has been captured and turned into a commodity (the spectacle) to which we are now subservient. So it's not just boredom. It's also angst and indignation. And it's not just about Man City but they are the symbols of it at the moment.

When you spot players being individuals there can be no individual brilliance which is what makes football so much better then any other team sport

Yes he has, you can see that with arteta too

Joe's face in the thumbnail looks like he's pleading to be rescued

Klopp carried the entertainment of this league on his back since he joined Liverpool.

Don't forget the pass-back rule change in the early 1990s to counter a horrendously boring World Cup and increasingly defensive tactics.

It's complicated

our big beautiful boy is back

Has a football fan who hates Pep with a PASSION. He made football so boring and frustrating to play

I still can't understand the business decision to take away a popular and silly podcast that people loved and replace it with super serious analysis with the viewing figures dropped.

I personally never understood the distaste for Pep's type of football. I don't only not consider it boring. I consider it absolutely magical if the other team is trying to play football instead of parking the bus. But that's not Pep's fault.

26:52 😢

Sounds like a brilliant idea would be, if the ref sees a professional foul, then red card

Funnily enough they played more fast zippy football when Haaland was on the bench against Villa.

Yes, City are a great team. They have world class players. But their passing passing ball is boring. I would rather watch e.g Man U vs Wolves etc than City

We need Reuben on the street to be a regular segment!!

Absolutely not, I find the tactical battle absolutely fascinating.

Absolutely, the football I know used to be fast, exciting, and unpredictable. It was free-flowing football without much emphasize on possession. Now it's just seem so structured but there is no denying it served its purposes which is winning title. Match like the recent FA Cup tie between Man Utd and Liverpool is what made me watch football in the fast place. The chaotic moment of the last 20 minutes was peak at least IMO

Can we get a blog explaining the last 2 years of Joe's career

Before I watch the video, I'd like to answer YES, he and other similar managers including Klopp and Arteta are making football BORING. It made me realise and understand what other ex-players have been saying, these days you don't need to be a talented footballer, you just need to run faster and further than your opponents. Essentially Pep's tactics favour athleticism over footballing talent. I understood this further watching the Liverpool Vs Man Utd matches this season. Liverpool was playing their overloading tactics getting chances after chances. On the other hand United played like crap and were all over the place, and yet they came away with 2 draws in the league and a win in the FA cup. They are getting a result purely out of talented players like Mainoo's awareness, Garnacho's directness, Antony's antics, Bruno's Hollywood passing etc. Now we just some genius of a manager to merge both ends of these extremes to make consistent entertaining football. 😂

At 24:30… this kind of play should be used persistently by any club with a good manager.