Lots of stories from WWII & Korea of GIs pissing on their Garands to keep them operating in sub-zero temps.

Rip gramps

Respect for Gramps.

Back in Vietnam the army wanted to be cheap and used cheaper low quality powder, which fouled the rifles more. Also didn't help cleaning kits weren't issued initially for the platform.

Jim Sullivan has a lot to say about the M16. He talks with Ian from forgotten weapons. Jim designed the ar15 along with Eugene stoner.

I must assume your pops is familiar with guns will before joining the military and participate in the war. Or that's just me

@@jehoiakimelidoronila5450 in viet nam you joined the navy, marines, or air force ! the army drafted theirs !

@@EDD519 if I remember correctly he wasn’t drafted he was enlisted

@@jehoiakimelidoronila5450 yes he was indeed very familiar with firearms….… and fishing for that matter both sides of his family were hunters and fishermen. Michigan native during the depression era his parents my grandparents and great grandparents used all those hunting,fishing,farming skills to survive.

I used both the 16 & 14. The 14 was better balanced, every trigger pull, one bullet until magazine was empty. . The 16 was unreliable in full auto and sometimes in semi.

I'm still packing a 06, I wish they didn't ban the Accelerator round, 4080 fps.

@@bearwill4737... It's not banned. You can buy the sabots from the E. Arthur Brown site to make them with. But how do you make them shoot accurately?

"In accordance with the rules of the Geneva Convention, the 5 and 1 half caliber rifle is ideally suited to neutralize military age males in the Asia Pacific Theater"

o7,, Thank you for your service

The rifle the Germans & Japs feared the most - was the British Lee Enfield - 303.

Really wish the myth of the AK being based on the STG-44 would die. Kalashnikov literally stated himself he took heavy inspiration from the garands operating system for his rifle because he like it. At most the stg-44 influenced the intermediate cartridge concept for the AK and external ergonomics. But both of those could’ve been coincidental.

Correct. The only mechanical similarity is the Long Stroke gas piston. The actual operating mechanism of the BCG in the StG44 is closer to the SKS-45; and, the SKS is literally a mini version of an older Soviet Anti-Tank rifle. If anything, the StG44 borrowed from Soviet designs. (As they did with the G43, learning from captured SVTs, etc)

Well acktuallly 🤓

@@ICECAPPEDSKY There actually is evidence of the 7.62x39 being a independent concept and not directly influenced by the STG or 8mm Kurz. It's not crazy to think good engineers on both sides realized full power rifle rounds were kind of useless in urban combat and a shortened lower recoiling cartridge would be good in a semi or fully automatic firearm, the 7.62x39 intermediate cartridge project started back in 1943. (interesting to note too that around the same time Soviet engineers also experimented with 5.45 designs. there is a misconception that they totally took this from 5.56 in the Vietnam war; while studying AR-15 rifles and 5.56 ammo did influence their adoption and push to a high velocity small caliber cartridge it's actually something they dusted off from earlier experiments. Kalashnikov himself didn't like the idea and like many older guys at the time thought 7.62 was a minimum for a effective combat bullet, something you saw in the USA at the time too.)

Haven't really seen people aggressively arguing AK=STG44 on the Western Internet. I always assumed that it's a Russian thing, because there are a lot Russians with self-hate tendencies, so they tend to disregard a lot of inventions as just copies of foreign stuff.

In war there are untouchable business men who make money, and at the low end, patriot soldiers that are sacrificed without a second thought. That is the sad truth about war.

mcnamara said they didn't need chrome lined barrels. .i guess they never did that in car production, so he thought he knew best.

Tiny gas tube didn't help any.

​@user-ht1dh7uu7f gas tubes had nothing to do with it. The issued ammo was out of spec for the rifle. It burned at a faster rate, causing higher pressures in the gas system than the rifle was tuned for. Higher pressures led to faster port erosion, faster and more violent bolt carrier cycling and a the feed timing being thrown off.

Japanese rifles in WW2 had crome bores

@davidkermes376 you might be onto something with that one. Chrome was pretty much a beauty thing at the time in automotive. I think he was bean counting in an industry he knew zip about. He was fairly arrogant.

You're spot on about the burning rate. I called the deterrent a buffer in my entry.

Was the early propellant nitro cellulose.

All smokeless powders are nitrocellulose based. Single base powders have only nitrocellulose as the propellant component. Double-base powder has nitroglycerin added in to increase the energy released by the burning powder. The deterrents are used to modulate the burning rates. Diphenylamine is one of the older deterrents in use.

Diphenylamine…Benadryl?

I haven't trusted the guvment since 1967.

It was safe and effective...

@@Tomken8d2 😆 I see what you did there!

It was still jamming in the 1970's

I thought the mag//follower were also a major issue.??

@@Nobluffbuff I injected a little sarcastic dark humor...

Explains why my Dad (Late 'Nam era AF, non-aircrew) loved the AR-15, coming out of The Service.

@@LRK-GT I was non crew. Air police.

It wasn’t the Army, the culprit was Springfield Armory who tried to sabotage it. Criminal. This guy has the full story.

@@bwise7739 I saw an interview with Stoner. He had a general get right in his face and tell him he was going to kill soldiers with his new rifle.

@@larry648 General was probably a WWII vet who loved his M1 much like the WWII Marines who hated the M1 and wanted to keep their 1903 Springfields.

THANK YOU! I was just about to post the same thing.

Hey, Obama talked about a Navy corpesman, you wouldn’t dare say HE was wrong, would you?

@user-tj2hw2gp2d yes, he was wrong too.

@@user-tj2hw2gp2d what kind of logic is that? We don’t worship cults of personality, like you do with leftist and Marx.

Yep. Annoyed me to the CORE.

the ak is a rip off of the stg-44 in every way shape and form. The Garand did not use an intermediate cartridge to bridge a gap between the sub-machine gun and the battle riffle. Sorry you fell for the bullshit.

What shockwave said is correct , the only thing that AK-47 has in common with the STG 44 is form factor and cartilage classification. Mechanically speaking AK-47 does borrow a lot from the M1 grand and Kalashnikov did State he got his mechanical inspiration from the grand's operation. The intermediate cartridge that the AK-47 used was actually already adopted and previously used in the SKS. The AK-47 has as much in common with the STG 44 as the m4 carbine does. Fun fact: technically United States military had an assault rifle during the Korean war with their M2 and M3 carbines ( full auto M1 carbines).

@@tsiefhtes 7.62X39 was also being used with the RPD, which happened to reach a small number of troops during WW2 (Late 1945. Battle of Berlin iirc) for field combat testing

​@@tsiefhtes IIRC, the StG44 also has a long-stroke gas system, but a tilting bolt. I guess one *could argue* the (short-stroke) SKS-45 has more in common with the StG44 than the AK. In reality, the only inspiration/flattery is in the cartridge. The SKS-45 being a miniaturized Soviet semi-auto anti-tank rifle, and the AK-47 being a reconfiguration of the US Garand's design. I prefer to think of the M2/M3 Carbine as PDWs. The stated purpose for the design and original issuing, aligns perfectly with the modern PDW concept. (+ the .22 Spitfire post-war commercial wildcat of .30Carbine, looks suspiciously like a modern 5.7x28. Makes me want to see a P90 in 7.62, if anything.)

The Kalashnikov is really an amalgamation of a multitude of designs, the StG-44 and M1 Garand being just two of them. The general form factor and the cartridge were inspired or heavily drawn from the StG, while the long stroke piston system drew heavily from the M1 Garand. An interesting one that I didn’t realize at first was that the long fire selector on the side of the AK was likely taken as a design idea from the Remington Model 8 rifle. For the underfolding stock models of AK the stock is almost a direct copy of the MP-40 stock.

Same here! My M16A1 ran flawlessly unless routine maintenance was not performed. The issued ammo in Nam was a really a problem.

Blanks are very dirty and if you don't have the BFD screwed on tight, there wasn't enough back pressure to energize the gas system

As a "data dink" in the Marine Corps back in the mid 90's, I didn't do much training with blanks, but on the few occasions that I did, I noticed the same jamming problem. It's been a very long time, but I can't recall any jamming when firing regular ammo.

@@i.r.oldairborneviking2823 My experience also. Clean, meaning really clean. Armorer once in a while would re-clean by assigning E-3 and E-4's from HDQ company the weapons - all of those not issued for that hour. Found some near bolt lockup - powder burn residue. He said several times " crap powder" made most of the problem. This video explains what later I learned in Civi life - handloading with varies powders. Do not recall the powder Name - sold surplus from some DOD contractor (Gov't had already paid the bill). This power shot well - velocity dependent - dirty like a wet pig pen. Loaded some 100 + or so - then burned the left over in an open line on the ground. One ealy lesson learned in handloading.

They were PREVENTED from making McNamara looking BAD; they were prevented from DOING their job.

Note sure what you are trying to say with respect to the powder. The original powder was an IMR extruded powder. The Ordnance Board changed it to a Winchester Ball powder which was a lot dirtier.

Would the word sabotage be a word that would cover what they did.

@@patrickporter1864 SABOTAGE ! Intentional or “professed” unintentional it IS a destructive effect - it got souls damaged downstream of the ACT irrespective of intention. It was malicious, only the effect is accountable - HARSH, but the effect was harsh.

No, the purpose was to prolong the war. They did their job quite well.

They wanted to prolong the war. American corpses accomplished that goal.

So treu that experience Vietnam vet use ak's tgey took from the Vietnam to use

@@rodniegsm1575 It was common practice. The AK's bolt has some wriggle in it while the M16 has tighter tighter tolerances which makes it seize up from dirt and mud as well. Numba ten gun...

I doubt daily cleaning

@@jason200912 out in desert storm, the fine powder sand, I cleaned mine every night. If it had lube on it , it was caked with dust . You could hear it in the action , it got into everything.

Daily cleaning was not needed but you have to keep the bolt carrier “wet”. LSA of the time worked great. By 1970 a M16 would shoot all the ammo a grunt was likely to carry without a hiccup. At least mine would and did. ALSO full auto is of limited usefulness. But I used it.

They were prevented from testing due to the expense and Roosevelt had no problem throwing good people to the wolves for failures that he was directly responsible for. Untested torpedoes weren't a problem until suddenly they were, and to this day no one blames the guy that spent the test money on his yacht.

@@NemoBlank Except they ignored the reports coming from the field during the war and blamed the submariners. They never investigated until pressured.

18:49

Criminal, in a word.

McNamara s bean counters. at work.

Typical government bureaucracy.....in ANY country. Just follow the development and procurement of the British SA80 bullpup rifles and you realise that politics will always take control and priority over practical and vital decision making. As soon as you put a politician in the line between the designer of a great bit of kit, and the end user, (military or civilian kit), you instantly destroy any chance of getting what is required, at a realistic price, to the place it's needed. Too many deals, too many egos to serve and far too much money just thrown away. Day in, day out, year in, year out, through history. We have had all the same issues and cover ups in the UK going back centuries. The huge one that will potentially be a breaking story somewhere down the line, is the criminal loss of money going on in procurement. It all comes down to greed and corruption. Too many ignorant people in charge of deciding what needs to be bought, and being ripped off by a contractor who sees the government money as a great way to make millions very quickly.

That was the original ar10s that gene stoner designed. Military tested but they were way to influenced by Springfield. I admit I love the m14 but it was not needed and only because we were footing the bill for the world and still are, we wanted what we wanted and that was that. The British 270 and the FN FAL was a way better platform but as usual the US threw it's weight and bullied everybody into our way of thinking. Btw, that's the whole reason for the original Springfield arsenal being closed down. McNamara did that to get rid of the "good old boys club"

@JamesThomas-gg6il Thanks for the info. Humm wonder how the Original AR 10 would stack up with the present AR10 types - have not tried any current ones due to "everybody has own proprietary parts and designs", kind of limits parts supply options.

@@robertwikeljr-1522 exact same reason I don't have one either. Did look at Brownells version of the original, or as close as they could get, but always too late and several dollars short.

​​@@JamesThomas-gg6ilI'm imagining an alt-history where Springfield was told to pound sand, and the Brit .270 became 6.8mmNATO, with the US service rifle being an AR-10 development.

​​ Actually, the original Belgian 7mm round the FN/FAL was first chambered in was ballistically superior to both the British 6.8 and 7.62x51. It would've made an excellent NATO standard cartridge...

Leroy Sullivan is responsible for the AR15. Not Stoner....though it was Stoner that made the overall design in the first place, giving Sullivan the base. Sullivan's role was scaling the AR10 down, as he did with the Stoner 62.

@seaweeb2258 Once the Pentagon started adding the forward assist, etc. it was no longer Stoner's design. Stoner will be forever associated with the Armalite design, just like Browning is associated with the 1911, M-2 .50, etc. My opinion.

M16A1 and M16A2, US Military is not using dash - in designation of rifles, vehicles etc. (excluding aircrafts to which is using other designation act).

@@luke_pl3741 It can be found in some older documentation though. But indeed nowadays it's all without the dash and aircraft do have their own system with dashes in some places, but not all places.

​@@brotherbrovet1881Nonsense.

The ball powder was changed to reduce the fouling and they finally got it right with WC844 or what we call H335 now.

@@crashdsnowman1 that’s interesting to know I cannot remember what CFE223 is considered ball or ???!

@@Johnny-jr2lq CFE is a ball powder

It's like an appendix: doesn't really have a use, but since it doesn't negatively affect functionality, just leave it on there.

@@armynurseboy Loved that rifle, had a chance to get an AR-15A1 (semi-Auto version) but Used it was going for just under $4K 8( dont make THAT kinda money.

@@michaelernst3731 that's way overpriced. Most ARs run around $1000 for a milspec one. Even the Colt and FN clones run around $1500

@@armynurseboy I think it was a Pre 1986 Assault Weapons Ban. It was a very old looking but in good condition. That would make it worth more and I would have Loved to have it but $4k is just abit out of my reach.

I have. Kyle Rittenhouse. He had to use it because he was shooting one handed due to the close proximity and accidentally falling backwards on his butt. Which cause the round to not fully chamber so he smacked it forward rather than waste time ejecting it

The extractor issue was due to 2 reasons: 1) the out of spec ammo being hotter than the ammo it was designed for. This increased carrier velocity beyond the original design and 2) non-chromed chambers would rust and pit in humid tropical conditions. Pitted chambers tended to "grab" cases making them harder to extract. Marry those two issues together and you get ripped off case heads.

Glad you liked the M-14. I had the worst jam I ever saw with mine. The firing pin came out the back of the bolt and stabbed into the firing mechanism. It was disassembled to find out what happened with a grinder.

@@DonMeaker In round one I had an M14 select fire. Now that was fun! A full auto 7.62X51 made your dance card full! Kinda like firing a 06 on full auto that's not a BAR. Round 2 a M16A1.

You can thank public education and the dumbing down of America for that.

My favorite is the apple core.

No one cares

Maybe he's pronouncing it "corpse" due to the number of American corpses the corps produced?

It just walks up on ya.

I had no problem staying on target with my M14 on full auto even though I rarely used full auto. (I still do not at 72 years old). I am always baffled by this proclamation. Once we made the move to M16 way too many combat personnel in Nam inappropriately used full auto. I continued to carry the M14 until until I had to start striping M60 belts for ammo. (just one old jarheads opinion)…

You are spot on sir…

And his "Wizz kids"

It was a good choice as long as they didn't screw with it. They just failed to test it before mass producing

Wasn't McNamara's middle name "Strange"?

That was THE reason. He issued an order, that was it.

Did you use the flip up portion of the butt plate during full auto fire?

Was it as heavy as 10 moving boxes?

I didn't have any problems with it, yes full auto with the M16 definitely had less recoil but I didn't find either the M14 or the G3 I got to fire when training with the German military to be "totally uncontrollable" and don't understand why all the nightmare stories even exist in the first place, and it's a non issue anyway because all full auto is good for is burning through all your ammo, and what this guy and everyone else who makes videos that talks about M14's gets wrong is that M14's were never meant to be issued to the troops en mass with full auto capability, every M14 manufactured was shipped from the manufacturer 5 to a crate with the selector locks installed and the selector switches in an accessory bag that also contained the cleaning kit's, standard Army and Marine Corps doctrine was to have 3 men in every rifle squad issued selector switches with the rest of the squad only having semi auto capability, this can be seen in pictures of the troops in Vietnam with M14's, look carefully at the pictures and the vast majority you can see the little round selector locks installed instead of the selector switches. Something else he gets wrong which is a common myth about the M14 is that the wooden stocks were supposedly an issue in the jungle humidity, M1's are virtually the same rifle and do you ever hear stories about their stocks being an issue in the Pacific? No, because there were no issues, matter of fact all the M21 sniper rifle variant M14's that saw service in Vietnam all had wood stocks. M14's were already being produced with the synthetic stocks before any troops even set foot in Vietnam, they were intended to be made with synthetic stocks from day one it's just that the program to develop one wasn't done by the time M14's were starting to be produced so just to get them rolling they started producing them with wooden stocks, the real reason they wanted synthetic stocks was because after making arms for two world wars already just in the first half of the century America was running out of acceptable walnut and birch timber for arms manufacturing, and they were afraid that in the event of a war with the Soviet Union that stock production could wind up being a choke point in the production of M14's, so development of a synthetic stock was ordered but it wasn't finished yet as of when M14 production began so they just started it with wooden stocks, but the synthetic stock was finished and the manufacturer's were already shipping M14's with synthetic stocks before any US troops were even in Vietnam, and they'd already started a depot program that was replacing already produced M14's wooden stocks with synthetic one's, all that nonsense about warping stocks is a bunch of exaggerated crap, like I said all the sniper M14's in Vietnam all had wooden stocks.

@@dukecraig2402 Yup, one full auto per squad. The rest with selector locks.

Here's the thing. Were you firing standing up at an indoor range at a target 25 yards away? Or were you properly in a prone supported position?

Mattel was stamped inside the fore stock

​@bearwill4737 Not even remotely true.

@@drewschumann1 I assume you never seen it then, I did in the 1970's.

What we said was like the commercials......If It's Mattel It's Swell

Exactly what I once heard from a USMC officer. This was in the late 1980s, he praised the M 16 as a very reliable weapon but required strict maintenance.

The buffer/buffer spring doesn't have anything to do with carbon residue being deposited into the chamber. The buffer was a counterweight that was in the buttstock. It also has nothing to do with case heads being ripped other than it was too light in weight for the out of spec ammo. You are correct in that the Olin ball ammo created higher pressures in the gas system, which increased the speed of the bolt carrier. A heavier buffer and spring helped to slow down the carrier speed. What caused case heads to be ripped off were the un-chromed chambers. These chambers would rust and pit in the humid tropical air. The brass cases would expand into those pits during firing, thus making them harder to extract. Marry that with the faster cycling bolt, and you get case heads ripped off.

A buffer? What do you mean? A buffer in the powder? What was the buffer made out of?

Units rocking 7.62x51 ran out of ammo and got overrun....

@@jimbob465 Units firing full auto and specters in the shadow never ran out of ammunition of course. WEIRD how ammunition fired per casualty inflicted has gone into the hundreds of millions and keeps increasing.

@tedhodge4830 that's because our supply system keeps improving, giving our boys all the ammo they want to fire, and the more bullets fired the more money a war makes so the government is fine with it.

Well the 1911 and m1a are loved and they Dont even try to fix them

Back when you weren’t harsssed for owning guns I had a workhorse.38 Beretta. Liked to shoot when I was younger. It got used a lot and I never had any problem at all. It can be done right the first time. - Dan

What's a cold chamber?

@@richarddeveas4537 I think he was referring to a cold weather testing chamber.

One issue that is never talked about is what I always referred to as the french factor. Have you ever heard the phrase "never been fired and only dropped once" ? I'm not saying all indigenous units were cowards but many were. In Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and others not listed there were many that depended solely on American and allie troops to do the greater brundt of the fighting and loss of life while they rode on our coat tails doing minimal if any of their own fighting. They wanted to be liberated but did not want to earn that liberation by fighting for it. Two prime examples are Vietnam and afghanistan! After the foriegn troops withdrew from the conflict they folded in a matter of days.

@@jodemit655 Not the Tiger troops from South Korea in Vietnam.

every time i see that comment i remember how the japanese supposedly couldn't fly fighter planes because they were all too nearsighted.

True story

Yup, my AR I have now has a 1 in 8 and is a tack driver with heavier match bullets.

The German rifle used the 7.92 x 33 round (bottleneck round) at 2,250 feet per second. The SKS and AK-47 used 7.62x39 rounds running at 2,336 feet per second. M-1 Carbine used 7.62 x 33 round at 1990 feet per second.

a CAR 15

Weirdly enough, decades later, the M4 was also sabotaged by similar instruments, whereby its cyclic rate was found to be too high and necessitated the insertion of a heavier buffer called the H-2. Similarly, the Mk18 had a similar phase of sabotage where its conveniently shortened gas tube also resulted in a higher cyclic rate. Similarly, commercially available rifles with an enlarged gas tube to accommodate commercial ammunition were also sabotaged by commercial vendors trying to accommodate such lower powder charges. The sabotage is everywhere. The saboteurs are in the rafters, in the sewers, the streets, even in my own home! They sabotaged physics! Similarly, the propellant gas itself is a common saboteur, sabotaging Eugene Stoner and Colt's god-given TDP specifications for the gas port, causing erosion, and increasing our Lord and Savior Eugene Stoner's specified gas port size! Sadly, us mere mortals worshiping at the Stoner altar like good Christians must do the humble thing and increase the buffer weights, add an adjustable gas block and other such small heresies. May Stoner atone us for our sins. Amen.

Very easily fixed by simply forging a receiver with a 1913 picatinny rail as seen on almost every AR15 manufactured today

…and chrome.

They had a big stockpile and by golly, they were going to use it up.

They could count the pennies saved with innocent lives lost, 58,000 souls.

Did he design it? Did he select the ball powder and blocking chrome lining?

@@oldrabidus2230 Indirectly as Bureau Ord. favored the wood and steel M1A not some newfangled aluminum/polymer rifle by some outsider (Eugene Stoner) not afilliated with Springfield Armory in Mass.( not the Illinois manufacturer). Bureau Ord. manipulated as much as possible to oversee the failure of the M16 and Col. Rene Studler was head of Bureau Ord. at the time of the M16 testing/ evaluation. It took Sec. Defense McNamara to force the Pentagon to accept M16 and shut down Springfield Armory as the M14 was not suitable for Vietnam service. It took Congressional hearings for the Pentagon to correct all the issues with the M16 such as stick powder for the 5.56 cartridges, chrome plating chamber and barrel and issuing cleaning kits to troops. Sadly, troops were killed in Vietnam due to this interference from Bureau Ord. and their manipulation of what would be a fine rifle.

@@michaelbarfield528 Interesting. Thanks! Kinda reminds me of the B1b and B52. Boeing bought Rockwall and slept with the Air Force to keep the 52 in front line duty while the bone was treated like a red headed step child even though it was better in every category than the BUFF.

@@oldrabidus2230 True! Yet this has been the military industrial complex Pres. Eisenhower warned us all about. In addition Electric Boat and the father of the nuclear navy (Admiral Rickover) were very "chummy" for years till Congress force him to retire after bribery allegations "surfaced" (pardon the pun Admiral Rickover was a submariner).

No you didn't.

I saw “Mattel” on an M16 in 1976

They originally started with slow twist long barrel but later found that fast twist is better and that 1:9, 1:8 is perfect for standard 556 bullets of 55 and 62 gr

yeah carrying 4 or 5 20 round mags was heavy and bulky.

The AK-47 was not based on the STG44, it was based on the M1 Garand rifle. Kalashnikov said himself that he took inspiration from the Garand’s operating mechanism for his rifle. At most the STG-44 influenced the external ergonomics and that’s it. Maybe the ammunition from the AK took inspiration from STG-44’s intermediate cartridge as well in concept who knows. People keep perpetuating the myth.

@@ICECAPPEDSKY I concur.

Form follows function. They look a lot alike, but they don't function the same.

@@CaptainSeamus I concur. When you look at most modern military rifles, they all tend to look alike to a certain extent.

I would say that's a stretch. Most rifles fed from box magazines. The curved magazine was a result of the shape of the round. Pistol grips on submachine guns were also common. Select fire existed in things like the BAR. Multiple people independently invented the light bulb. It doesn't follow they were inspired by each other because they all looked similar.

Eugene Stoner was a criminal incompetent who was more interested in designing cool mechanisms than reliable weapons.

yeah, and people now want mil spec parts for their ARs

Or just keep your mouth shut.

Your beating a dead horse Bro!

Forward assist is a very useful component of the AR platform. it has become popular among the douchebag class to decry it recently

Wrong.

@@sharpe67the stg 44 did not inspire the ak im not wrong if you look at the two guns and think it looks like an ak your not wrong but that doesnt mean thet it was desined off of the ak

They tried to use box mags for the Garand but had issues. I believe they were converted BAR mags.

@@oldrabidus2230 validating that it was obsolete the moment it was accepted. too heavy, too long, too powerful, inferior loading system. back to the drawing board.

John garand originally designed the garand with a mag in 1919. It was basically a m14/bm59 before m14 existed.

@@jason200912 then they should have stayed with it. but they didn't.

The clip is easier to mass produce, cheaper, and lighter than a magazine. Where higher capacity isn't needed it absolutely is superior.

Wasn't aluminum, but a stellite barrel that couldn't handle the pressure. The JASUP testing committee mandated it for only the AR10 and none of the other rifles.

The ak47 wouldn't be chromed for generations later and had no problems haha