Same thing with cars. There are lots of 70s Firebirds and Javelins circulating on the car market today, but the poor man's cars from that era like the Gremlin, Falcon, Yaris etc are much rarer on the market today. Not to mention the real commoners cars from that era like the Plymouth Fury and Dodge Monaco sedans which were used all over the place in taxi fleets and police cruisers. Most of these were abused to the limit and then quickly retired to the junkyard.

Oops did i say Yaris, I meant Corolla but whatever

Me too. It is harder to find information on "normal" gear, so I appreciate it more.

William Sambo they were peasants...not common soldiers

Same here.

I think it's not just a much more interesting topic but the gear also looks cooler in my opinion, idk why, something about the ruggedness and the fact that it's more comparable to ''modern'' infantrymen's gear.

Me too, it's always all about the knights armor... what about the poor sods who have to patrol the castle walls regardless of the weather while the knights are in the great hall feasting. This series is more what helmet(armor too) would peasant conscripts have... whatever they can get their hands on or make themselves if they couldn't get their hands on any. The common soldier would have the same kit as his fellow soldier bought from the armory... If they couldn't afford the kit when they started it came out of their meager wages... Lets see some of that kit.

Not as poor as you are when they just give you a sharpened stick and point to the general direction of the enemy.

MyNameIsMud I've seen a few sticks in my time, damn fine weapon. Unless they're in armor....

Well honestly a quarterstaff in trained hands is nothing to fuck with, I wouldn't go against one without a pistol unless I was wearing full maximilian plate, and even then I'd probably get knocked out.

You're overreacting. A wooden stick can't go a thing against plate. No matter how hard you hit it simply has not got the mass to transfer enough blunt force

@@duchessskye4072 Tried it, unless your helmet is riveted on your breastplate it'll knock you off

Thank you very much. I always feel weird about self-promotion. It's something I should get over I suppose :) Please do share the channel with people you think might be interested though!

Thank you!

Maybe the rope is extra padding on top of a steel helmet.

I think that the artist could've just been a good artist who knew to show emotion.

Or it could have been the other way around.

Thank you! I do always try to mention the smiths that are responsible for the pieces I showcase, unfortunately in this particular case these pieces are so old, no one in my living history club seemed to remember their origin :) I've shied away from just listing companies or smiths I recommend because I'm always fearful of leaving out talented individuals that I may not even be aware of. Oh, I don't know if you've seen Mac's most recent work, but he's kind of come out of semi-retirement to finish a commission he had started before his injury if you'd like to take a look (forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=169445)

Interesting to know that he's back to work. Great thread and site as well. Thanks!

Paper armor was a thing in China. Myth busters tried it out and it was reasonably resistant to arrows.

Levies would generally provide their own equpment, though I think I have heard of lords/kings stockpiling crossbows, bolts/arrows and possibly polearms and shields. A gambeson can be made by your wife, helmets are relatively cheap as are second hand swords - now all you need is a spear and shield, and you are ready for battle :) In the 14th and 15th centurie,s there was a move towards smaller semi-professional armies of paid volunteer soldiers..

for quite a while in England there were laws about what military equipment people of different standings were required to have. So someone with this much land/money had to have these a helmet, maille shirt, ect. Don't know about else where.

Taken from Osprey`s "English Longbowman 1330-1515", who themselves take the information from several household account books: "Arms, armour, equipment and livery were supplied to the household man and the retainer by his employer. This supplemented, or replaced, whatever he might personally possess."..."Household men, of course, would have been in permanent possession of their equipment and livery." "The levy were supplied with arms, armour, equipment and livery at their county's or city's expense. The equipment provided for archers consisted of bows, one sheaf of arrows per man and 'competent arms' which usually meant swords and knives."

Bernhard Hager So a lord's household guard and other retainers were issued weapons, even though they had their own? And levies were issue arms through an Earl?

Seemingly so. Household guardsmen were professional soldiers, so most likely have been on campaign before - loot included. So they would most likely have a personal sword, favourite dagger, or more than one longbow. They would usually have more and better equipment than levies and so would stand out on the battlefield as well; the levies were just ordinary folks and poor sods, and they were usually lucky when they were equipped with body armour and/or a helmet. That's what you see in this video, not high quality, but cheap and practical armour for the common rabble.

They typically don't depart from the way they've drawn mail in one part of an image to another. Even if it was a different type of mail, I would expect to see some indication of rings like they've done on the other mail items in the image.

I thought that as well. I'm just trying to wrack my brain as to what they could have been trying to depict.

Tbh, a rope helmet (or helmet made of a similarly thick material) would make for fairly good protection. It wouldn't last indefinitely like steel armour might, and wouldn't afford equal protection, but have you ever tried to cut through rope? It's not easy. It would also cushion blows quite substantially, i daresay.

Hi, and thank you very much! In Late Medieval Society, knights were a very wealthy subset of the upper class, they were not commoners. Actual knights only made up a very small proportion of even the upper class men-at-arms.

I wouldn't give modern TV and Movie producers that much credit... ;)

It'd have been nice, if they had more photos, rather than just stylized illustrations. ...and speaking of which, it would have been nice, if the fighting manuals had had accompanying DVDs, showing the techniques. I can't imagine why they didn't bother to do that ;)

Armor for Plebeians

(The guy you ignored when you made the find when he said, "hey, look at these pictures." Later comes back to you with a report!)

The helmets are borrowed from my living history group (same owner as the Great Helm and Great Bascinet and Armet I showed previously). They predate my membership to the group by quite a while, so I can't speak to the design decisions in the modern reproductions.

It's important to have some level of skepticism when looking at old sources, and obsessiveness is important, but don't overdo it ... Flexibility is at least as important as skepticism! Humans have always been humans. .. For example the scale helmet must have existed. We have evidence from many other sources. Here is eg. one from the 1520s which was painted by Hans Krell (German Renaissance painter). The picture shows the Battle of Orša, which took place in 1514 between the Polish-Lithuanian Union and the forces of the Grand Duchy of Moscow. It is clear that in the Polish-Lithuanian center several soldiers wear this type of helmet. The battle ended with a Polish-Lithuanian victory.

All the links are in the video description. Low end armour can be every bit as fun as the fancy stuff!

Yep. Besides, making that 3-plate Brocas drove me nearly insane. Working on low end stuff is just fun.

Ordinary soldiers could get even the best of gears in various ways, even by payment. For instance, Usama ibn Munqidh describes an ordinary crusader sergeant being completely encased in armor and wearing double linked(very expensive) mail.

It's a detail from _The Arrest of Christ_ c.1450 by an unnamed artist. It features a lot of older or ill-fitting armors on the intentionally _ugly_ tormentors or Christ. commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Master_of_the_Karlsruhe_Passion_-_Arrest_of_Christ.jpeg

There is one extant jupon of that style, the Jupon of Charles VI, and it does feature one of those "sword hole" if i remember correctly.

Probably tricky, as he is into extensive research from primary sources, and lower classes don't have very good sources.

Matt Easton (Scholagladiatora) has a great video with Tobias Capwell where they talk about the gear from Agincourt. There, they touch upon a simple helmet meant for regular soldiers, maybe even paid for by the king, that were more or less mass produced. Go check it out to see what Tobias have to say about it.

The helmets are borrowed from my living history group (La Belle Compagnie). Their ownership of the helmets predates my membership, so I'm not entirely sure who made them or when. I'm not sure if the two rows of rivets was intentional for the construction they decided to go with or not, but yes the images only show one. It's possible that instead of a split construction, the bands in the images are just reinforcement which would only require one row of rivets (like on this helmet: www.pinterest.com/pin/449515606539628394/). Yes, my beard gets snagged by unlined mail, one of the many reasons I'm a big proponent of aventail liners.

I appreciate the reply. Thanks for the videos, you do a good job of them.

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/iryCe7yeqZe-hGQ.html&t

There are some survivals of these rope helmets, and they are indeed made from fiber rope, not quilted textile. They certainly could have been intended for wear under a helmet, but there's unfortunately no way to know for sure. Modernly though, people tend to use very exaggerated padding under armor. Padding for armor historically was shown to be pretty thin and light unless it was specifically stand-alone textile armor as a primary defense.

Knyght Errant makes sense

www.pinterest.com/pin/7881368075554349/

It's definitely possible the objects never existed, but similar helmets (especially caps of scale and other weird takes on helmets) show up in lots of sources over different time periods and cultures.

It's important to have some level of skepticism when looking at old sources, and obsessiveness is important, but don't overdo it ... Flexibility is at least as important as skepticism! Humans have always been humans. .. For example the scale helmet must have existed. We have evidence from many other sources. Here is eg. one from the 1520s which was painted by Hans Krell (German Renaissance painter). The picture shows the Battle of Orša, which took place in 1514 between the Polish-Lithuanian Union and the forces of the Grand Duchy of Moscow. It is clear that in the Polish-Lithuanian center several soldiers wear this type of helmet. The battle ended with a Polish-Lithuanian victory.

Sure. But at the same time you have to wonder where the inspiration for it came from. It seems odd to completely invent helmets that are entirely feasible in design and fit in the context of the period. If they never existed.

You can't quench harden mild steel. To heat treat steel it would require a carbon content greater than about 0.3%C which is a medium carbon steel. 16 gauge is going to put your plates on the heavy side for a CoP but it's certainly do-able for a Visby style armor. There are several different CoP patterns to choose from out there based on the Visby finds.

Knyght Errant alright, I have enough mild steel sheets to make a few suits of armor so I best get to work thanks for your answer

They were built a while ago for my living history group (La Belle Compagnie) but I'm not sure who actually made them. They predate my joining the group, but I will try to find out. I definitely want to explore more 'Third Estate' topics in the future.

Are you referring to the colors being split down the middle of his gown and hose? This style is usually referred to as 'mi-parti' or 'parti-colored,' and was a relatively normal fashion for the time.

Thank you very much for the answer. It's fascinating, even the footwear is different.

On these older videos I was still learning, but the newer ones should all be consistent.

I have been on horseback in armor, but I really only got to just sit there for a bit. I was lucky enough to have a friend of mine who jousts professionally allow me to get up on one of his horses at an event we were both at.

I've always felt funny about doing those types of videos. Other people already do plenty of them, but maybe I'll consider it. I do want to talk about the Witcher, but I've always worried that people will think it's a bit of a 'sell out' move to go down that road.

www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/27140?sortBy=Relevance&ft=Cerveliere&offset=0&rpp=100&pos=1

Kevlarr The Barbarian possible, could be a mistake or maybe he was left handed and only armored his sword hand.

Maybe he drank too much, and dropped the other one. Or threw it at someone.

maybe he was looting the field and found a corpse with only one arm

If i am doing light sparing with sword and buckler, I frequently only have a climbing glove on my left hand while a proper gauntlet on my right. The only protection I really need on my left hand is against blisters, and in a life or death situation you don't care about even that.

Sorry shingles helmet. I just assumed as it looks like the mk3/4 which was nicknamed "turtle helmet"

But there were nobles on foot. :) Dismounted men-at-arms/knights as they called.

Short videos aren't something I do too well, but I'm working on it. I believe that the background knowledge and context is just as vital to the actual topic of study. I see too many other historical KZfaq channels omit the requisite background or rip things completely out of context which risks oversimplification if not outright misinformation. I really want to avoid that, so I find it difficult to cut out a lot of what I consider important to the overall understanding. I will try to improve in the future, I just want you to understand why my videos are so long.

Besançon BM MS.677 Fleurs des Chroniques f098r - the image depicts a peasant uprising in Beauvaisis. They're slaughtering the nobles.

I think it could be both. Most illuminations were being done by monks, many of whom weren't that literate to begin with. I know it was common in Renaissance art to depict Biblical figures wearing contemporary armor. Donatello's "Black David" is a famous example. Recent Shakespeare interpretations used modern clothes and military uniforms instead of the usual period costumes to make it more accessable to the modern audience. Most people don't even know what a chain of office was/is but when a guy shows up dressed as a 3 star general you know he's important. If they wanted the people reading or viewing the art to easily understand it they'd probably just use contemporary armor. If the patron paying for it wanted accuracy they'd try to make it more historical I guess. Not sure what historical resources they'd have access to though.

El Grande Dave I imagine producing accurate depictions of the past would have been extremely difficult for artists, seeing as how much work we have to do modern day to delve to certain periods of time.

A lot has to do with visual clarity, as an artistic choice. If you want people to recognize depicted figures as "a soldier" or "a commoner" etc, it's easiest to draw on what the viewer knows from everyday life. Specific biblical characters, however, were usually given "biblical" garments, in the form of bulky robes with lots of fabric. It denotes them as specific people from a distant past, as opposed to a nameless extra. As a side note, when depicting historical events they did sometimes put in some archaic elements that a contemporary would recognize, but we nowadays might miss. I forgot where, but I remember an example of late 15th century artwork showing older bascinets to make a point that it happened in the past, even though they combined it with contemporary armor to show "this is a soldier, guys".

generally on purpose i would think. the point of the illustration is to illustrate, if you had all kinds of weird old armors people of your time wouldn't be able to tell who was supposed to be whom. largely you have to lower your expectation of literacy and then think about how an image can clearly convey information. rather than it just being a sort of secondary visual aide as they are to us. you can probably almost plot literacy rates against historical rather than iconic illustrations over time.

It's an artistic choice and a way to relate things to the people who would be viewing the manuscript. They're immediately recognizable as what the artist is trying to represent. Monks weren't that 'illiterate,' they were probably one of the most educated subsets of people in the MIddle Ages.

That would be gray hair... I'll have to speak to the hair and makeup department.

The links are in the description as well, are they not working?

That depends on a lot of factors. The short answer is 'sometimes.' Exactly when and where are we talking about? Are they associated with a town militia? Part of a peasant's revolt? Levied troops? What are the local ordinances? Are they in direct military service to a wealthy lord? Sometimes men may have some equipment provided for them, other times they would be expected to maintain a certain minimum level of equipment if they want to get paid at a certain rate. It changes dramatically depending on exactly when and where you're talking about.

Knyght Errant I’m talking about troops in a direct military service. Like an organized military force.

In Norway (the area I know the most about) the organised armed forces from late Viking and up until early modern period, it was required to have a certain level of equipment based on your position. Especially during Danish rule, the required armament for the population came as a way of dealing with the kings inability to properly collect taxes. It is easy to tell every farmer to keep a sword, axe, halberd and gun and to dedicate some time after church on sundays to drilling with them. Much easier than to send a taxman and hope he won't get killed. The notion of training with your local community to defend your people from the horrors of war was something the locals wanted to do. The Danish king Christian 4th even sourced the regulation sword every farmer had to buy and show to an official once a year. I know there are similar laws in other places as well. In Scotland the law defines a set of arms a farmer need to have and be proficient with (bow or crossbow and a knife, IIRC), and an alternative set if he can't shoot. Either as an axeman (probably a polearm, like a halberd or bill) or pavisier (some sort of shieldwearing dude). Yet other places and times, soldiers got their equipment from their lord. The Emperor frequently made huge orders of munition grade stuff to outfit a new army. An Englishnobleman had to supply his king with a set amount of soldiers and had to make sure that they were properly armed, whether that meant buying merceneries with already the right equipment or buying gear to equip his levy.

Taeerom Cool, cool. But when the Roman Empire was in it’s height, it’s military had standardized military equipment that every legionary had. Each piece was made the same way and each soldier was required to have it. Did that happen with any other military within about a millennium after the Roman Empire, or were they just super duper ahead of their time in that regard?

There is one i some german museum,desription says that it was used under mail coif.

Whirlwind TheSwirlWind Very much possibly so. However, the painter also might have run out of paint.

www.pinterest.com/pin/7881368075554349/

Knyght Errant Oh ... Thank you. I stand corrected.

Can you be more specific as to why? Most people seem to like to be able to select content rather than being hit with a marathon video with 4 totally different demonstrations. How do you think it could be improved? I'm genuinely curious. I want my content to be as easily digestible as possible.

sorry. i thought when the videos are so short, it would be more practical to have them with the main video to have the topic together. also doesnt seem to me that anyone would like to skip any of these helmets ,i also had to load all of them into playlist to watch them without interuption :) lazy me...my 2 cents, nothing crucial

No apology necessary. I don't see too many videos in my future where I will have a bunch of different objects like this, but if I do I will keep that in mind. My thinking was that if people wanted to go back to a specific helmet they could go right to that video rather than try to find it in one longer video, but maybe it would just be easier to put timecodes in the description to accomplish the same thing.

Scale helmets specifically appear in multiple artistic and written sources (as 'caps of scales'). I think it's important to look for objects across multiple sources to avoid the possibility of artistic one-offs, because of course an isolated drawing of something does not prove its existence, but as things appear in more and more sources across more and more cultures it starts to gain traction as something that may have existed. Written evidence is even more compelling, but in the absence of an archaeological artifact we are left only with speculation. I'm not trying to prove that any of these objects existed, I thought I made it clear that they are speculative at best (with the exception of the open faced bascinet).

"I thought I made it clear that they are speculative at best" I may have been lost in translation on this one, sorry ;) I've seen some helmets with scales instead of mail, I've seen scale armors, but I'v never seen a scale helmet and I remain convinced it would have been a terrible idea.

It's the first sentence in the video description, I re-iterate at 11:50 in regards to the specific helmets I show in the video with the explanation that they are only possible interpretations of a visual source, and there's a disclaimer in front of each of the demo videos individually. I'm not sure what else I can do to make it clear they are speculative in nature. Scale helmets appear in various sources across different geographical regions and span several decades surrounding the late 14th century and early 15th century. They also appear in written sources (which makes the argument that they are just artistic anomalies a little tougher to go with). That's about as good as it gets for an object without a direct archaeological find. I'm curious why you think they are a terrible idea? For a person who could afford to cobble one together out of scrap bits of iron, the alternative of no helmet seems like it would be worse than having a makeshift helmet. Here are some artistic sources BL Royal 20 C VII 1380 - 1400 France (Far Left ) - manuscriptminiatures.com/4163/7842/ BM MS 677 f098r 1384 - 1400 France - manuscriptminiatures.com/3986/10903/ BM MS 550 1400 - 1425 France - manuscriptminiatures.com/3983/10981/ Getty MS.33 1400 - 1433 Germany - manuscriptminiatures.com/4494/15688/ BNE Vitr. 25-7 1420-1440 Austria - manuscriptminiatures.com/4207/13858/

It just seems overly complicated (for me). No doubt people have tried all sorts of things, and usually when something worth it, others tent to copy... thus if those helmets existed and they were effective, it's strange to not find some from time to time. On the other hand, iron was expensive, wars didn't not last forever, so those "cheap" helmets have probably been reforged (as probably most of old and dull armors and weapons. Anyway, back on my opinion about those "scale helmets"... as far as I understand how they were made they weren't either rigid or light, and in both case that doesn't seems a great idea. As a "non rigid" protection some mail seems less restrictive, and heavy seems always a bad idea (my helmet weight about 3.3kg / 9lb and is really heavy)... but I can't be wrong on all points. Just seems a can of worms to me. Couldn't those pictures just depict lamelar camail?

Do keep in mind that the larger the piece of steel or iron the more skill it takes to make. Think about how a coat of plates preceded full plate armor. It's not just about what the solder can afford its also about what the local blacksmith can make and if hes not used to making armor then a scale helmet might be the best he can make.

Modern Clips D2 was my crack for years... could you spare a SoJ?