Hill SMG/Pistol: Inspiration for the FN P90

Рет қаралды 646,163

3 жыл бұрын

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John L. Hill was a World War One fighter pilot who went into the oil and gas industry, and enjoyed tinkering with guns in his free time. In 1949 he got an idea for a new style of magazine and feed system, which he developed and patented in the early 1950s. Hill’s intention was to create a submachine gun for the military or police that held its magazine flat atop the action, instead of sticking out of the gun where it would get in the way. To do this, Hill designed the system that would be later used in the FN P90, with ammunition held perpendicular to the barrel, and a turret mechanism in the action to turn the cartridges 90 degrees for feeding in the chamber.
Hill built 7 or 8 fully automatic prototypes, which were examined by the US Army and the FBI. One was tested at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1953, and we still have some of the photos from that examination (that particular gun was guilt using an MP40 barrel, interestingly). Hill’s guns varied in pretty much all details, including different barrel lengths, stock configurations, and magazines. Some used single stack and some double stack magazines, but all were a simple blowback action.
At some point in the late 50s or early 60s, Hill sold his patent rights to a pair of Texas businessmen who built 90 or 100 more examples (mostly semiautomatic) under the name H&B Enterprises. They took one to FN in Belgium, who found it interesting but did not opt to license or produce it. Ultimately, nobody was interested enough to put the gun into production, and only a small number of the H&B guns survive today. The original Hill prototypes were donated to the Lone Star Flight Museum in Texas in 1993, although it is not clear where they are today.
When FN began to design the P90 in the early 1980s, Hill’s concept made a return. It is not known exactly how much direct link there was between the Hill prototype and the P90 concept, but the eventual patents filed on the P90 do reference Hill’s patents (among others). The P90 remains the only production firearm to use this clever rotary feeding system.
Hill's patents:
patents.google.com/patent/US2...
patents.google.com/patent/US2...
patents.google.com/patent/US2...
For more documents, see the Forgotten Weapons page on this design:
www.forgottenweapons.com/hill...
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle 36270
Tucson, AZ 85740

Пікірлер: 1 400

@sqeeye3102 3 жыл бұрын

15:16 "You don't get a permanent perpetual license on an idea." *Disney has entered chat*

@JudgeNicodemus 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for reminding me of reason no. 27593# of why i hate Disney.

@aethonz 3 жыл бұрын

I pretty much said the same thing out loud when he said that, too

@stetee4238 3 жыл бұрын

"Tell that to Disney and the RIAA were my words to that then I scrolled down and hey you had beaten me to it :)

@dominicklittle9828 3 жыл бұрын

Disney survives off of brainwashing kids. And getting them to guilt trip their money

@milkapeismilky5464 3 жыл бұрын

Lego: "Hold my beer mouse boy"

@darthhodges 3 жыл бұрын

The fact that FN referred to Hill's expired patents in their own patents shows how much they actually valued their influence. Good on them.

@Seelenschmiede 3 жыл бұрын

True sportsmanship

@jzdpd 3 жыл бұрын

@@Seelenschmiede true, fn herstal is really a great company all around, excellent in all aspects

@krebgurfson5732 3 жыл бұрын

nah, it's just a good idea legally. allows for zero confusion around what idea is being patented. precedent. don't try to be friends with a company if you don't understand why they're doing something in the first place, it's CERTAINLY not to be a "good guy".

@ihaveacookie4226 3 жыл бұрын

I don't get how waiting for a patent to expire then making a gun and referencing another gun/patent to cover your ass legally is a good thing. If they wanted to be good they should of make the gun when hills patent was still in affect so the true owner of the idea would of gotten his fair share.

@darthhodges 3 жыл бұрын

@@ihaveacookie4226 You are assuming they waited on purpose. They didn't but you are right that it wasn't legality that motivated that decision to reference that patent because they didn't have to. The only reason I can think of they did it was because the engineers insisted out of respect for Hill's prior work.

@erikm12 3 жыл бұрын

"What do you do, Mr. Hill?" "I design firearms and firearm accessories."

@MesaAufenhand 3 жыл бұрын

"this is my gun I don't know you"

@faerieringwildlifeandmore 3 жыл бұрын

it's a nice firearm I tell you hwut

@ceryni11 3 жыл бұрын

"What kind of firearm?" "Yes."

@JAB6322 3 жыл бұрын

This really suprised me cuz for a long time I thought the P90's feeding mechanism and magazine design was a unique invention by FN. The more you know

@grayeaglej 3 жыл бұрын

There is an old expression: "There is nothing original under the Sun" Everything comes from somewhere, was inspired by something else.

@actionhirvimoose4294 3 жыл бұрын

@@FlymanMS Wasn't G11's magazine mounted differently? If I recall correctly the rounds were in a 90 degree angle along a different axis. If the barrel is the X-axis, this design is placing the rounds by the Z-axis (horizontal). The G11 is placing the rounds by the Y-axis (vertical). Thus I would refer to them as two different concepts.

@TacticalHotdog132 3 жыл бұрын

From my experience most things where invented about 20-100 years before they get sold by a better known / richer person.

@blackwoodsecurity531 3 жыл бұрын

@@actionhirvimoose4294 g11 applies a "pitch" change and the p-90 applies a "rotation" along the axis of the action. G11 is also a fair bit more convoluted

@JanoTuotanto 3 жыл бұрын

@@FlymanMS Yes G11 is another good example of an ancient idea. There are magazine fed pistols from 16000's using similar feed. And the idea might go back to 1400 A.D. or so.

@warrenb8228 3 жыл бұрын

Kel-Tec is watching this video sweating excitedly...

@KylesCustoms 3 жыл бұрын

They sweated already and made the p50 lol

@renatoimperatori5289 3 жыл бұрын

dont give them ideas 😳

@JenniferinIllinois 3 жыл бұрын

Exactly what I was thinking.

@RSK412 3 жыл бұрын

LOL good one!

@STRAKAZulu 3 жыл бұрын

The P50 already exists.

@TheHacknor 3 жыл бұрын

This is basically the poster child for this entire channel and it even has a legendary skin, never stop finding these gems!

@joaopedrosambatti2474 3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, someone got the 130 kills for the black'n brass and it looks awesome

@IDOLA149 3 жыл бұрын

This gun belongs in Destiny 2

@sparky6855 3 жыл бұрын

This gun could fit into so many games

@Stoic_grimace 3 жыл бұрын

Amen! This is why I love this channel

@MrGrimsmith 3 жыл бұрын

@@joaopedrosambatti2474 Need another 1,000 for the optional walnut panelled and engraved brass version :D

@stephenbinion6348 3 жыл бұрын

The color scheme is very Bond Villain. I like it.

@vattmann1387 3 жыл бұрын

I am feeling a sci-fi film vibe ala Flash Gordon or Barbarella

@johnscheib9077 3 жыл бұрын

Or very Pittsburgh

@stephenbinion6348 3 жыл бұрын

@@vattmann1387 Peak Jane Fonda!

@deniskozlowski9370 3 жыл бұрын

@@johnscheib9077 Go Steelers! Piow, Pow, Pow.

@Braun30 3 жыл бұрын

Exactly. The man with the gold and carbon gun.

@andrewboerder 7 ай бұрын

I was friends with Hills daughter. She died at 99 in 2021. She talked a lot about hanging out with him in New Mexico while he was testing it and refining it.

@davidgoodnow269 6 ай бұрын

Do expand! Maybe you could write out or record what you recall, and send in a letter to the P.O. Box so we can get a follow-up or extended video on this?

@jeremiahzerda4216 3 жыл бұрын

This looks like a rare version of a child's concept of a gun. In a good way.

@xurx2838 3 жыл бұрын

'Proof of concept.'

@TheWolfsnack 3 жыл бұрын

It looks like a product of a shop class.....woodworking shop that is.

@danielyu8022 3 жыл бұрын

A child's idea that was finally realized and taken seriously years later.

@Austin_Collett 3 жыл бұрын

Yeah looks like a gun stick figures get

@paultony2039 3 жыл бұрын

That looks like somebody with a Maschineshop was bored at quarantine

@vibeslide 3 жыл бұрын

The way the cartridges are turned is actually much simpler than I expected. What a nice design!

@dbmail545 3 жыл бұрын

I think it is slightly superior to how the FN magazine works, even though it doesn't handle ejected full-length rounds as well.

@lairdcummings9092 3 жыл бұрын

The design should prevent feeding issues with exotic bullets.

@dwaneanderson8039 3 жыл бұрын

@@dbmail545 I'm sure it would be possible to adjust the design to where it would. The bolt just needs to go back a little farther before it turns.

@MaximusCensorius 3 жыл бұрын

Hank Hill's Canadian cousin: "I make Oil, Gas and Machine Gun accessories."

@bryanconnaughton474 3 жыл бұрын

Gosh dang it, Uncle Sam. I'm not paying your "En Eff Ay" tax. It's just not right, I tell ya.

@MaximusCensorius 3 жыл бұрын

@@bryanconnaughton474 "Hank, I'm tellin' ya, it's a conspiracy, backed by the Liberal Elite, China and the Sea-Ai-Ehhhhh!" - Dale Gribble (his words sound weirdly realistic these days, lol.)

@md_vandenberg 3 жыл бұрын

Of course I read that in AvE's voice. "Hey FBI, I've got a sure skookum choocher right here!"

@bryanconnaughton474 3 жыл бұрын

@@MaximusCensorius lmao the modern world sure is stranger than fiction. 15 years ago Dale going off about computers and "the beast" was just a funny joke

@MaximusCensorius 3 жыл бұрын

@@bryanconnaughton474 sadly now it's a viable question. Lol

@JunkyardBashSteve 3 жыл бұрын

"you don't get a permanent perpetual license on an idea" Unless your name is Walt and you draw a certain three-circle mouse.

@andersbendsen5931 3 жыл бұрын

There's the difference between copyright and patents. Academia cares not at all for craft.

@InfernosReaper 3 жыл бұрын

@@andersbendsen5931 Perhaps, but that company *did* successfully lobby to extend copyright to *ridiculous* length, thus completely defeating the point of why copyrights expire in the first place. When it nears expiration again, they'll get it extended even longer

@lwilton 3 жыл бұрын

@@InfernosReaper Walt was long dead at the time, and I'm pretty sure he would have been dead set against the idea. Blame Eisner, not Walt.

@hoagielamp6543 3 жыл бұрын

It's not the founders fault Disney is such a piece of shit. They're so undeserving of their place in this world, they made billions off selling lame dresses

@Gameprojordan 3 жыл бұрын

The company set up a system where their Disney mascots and stuff constantly get re-licensed so nobody else can use them. When you're a multi billion dollar company you can afford to constantly extend copyright on your product, the amount of money they make off merchandise more than makes up for it

@deanhankio6304 3 жыл бұрын

the black and gold metal + nice wood. That's all I need to enjoy this weapon, disregarding it's feeding system.

@Vanastar 3 жыл бұрын

It's appearance is beautiful.

@lairdcummings9092 3 жыл бұрын

It's got a "James Bond Villain" vibe to it. *Very* cool. 😎

@mikecampos1193 3 жыл бұрын

If I was Rogue Trader in 40K this looks like something I would arm my crew with like the officers.

@fritzdaddy-135mmgetstagger4 3 жыл бұрын

Yall find this gun beautiful 😂 my fucking god yalls taste is horrid

@seriousmaran9414 3 жыл бұрын

Why? Because you can!

@davidhemsath4262 3 жыл бұрын

Really like Ian’s “we’ve heard _that_ before.” ‘That’ being single-use/disposable magazines (until the quartermaster corps gets involved).

@mattfleming86 3 жыл бұрын

This is cool as hell. As an aside, it needs a suppressor specifically designed to make a "pew" sound.

@TheGreegles 3 жыл бұрын

Dual-wielded with silencers. straight from Golden Eye multiplayer on the N64

@robinblackmoor8732 7 ай бұрын

Yeah, why don't suppressors make the "pew" sound. It seems obvious that they should.

@suddenwall 3 жыл бұрын

imo FN's solution to move rotation to the magazine was really smart. Instead of having a giant solid heavy disc whipping back and forth between each shot, the rounds are instead gently fed through a stationary lightweight spiral. By making the spiral bit part of the magazine, you can fit your last rounds into the spiral itself, increasing your magazine capacity. It also solves the problems of feeding pressure and pushing out the last few rounds, since you can have your magazine follower take the form of 2 cartridge-sized rollers that can follow the last rounds down the spiral itself. So impressed by how inventive this is. I wonder if Mr. Hill would've arrived at the same solution if he'd had access to 1980s-strength plastics

@thebowtieguy777 3 жыл бұрын

The downside to fns design is that 5.7 rounds all need a light wax coating

@sheeplord4976 2 жыл бұрын

@@thebowtieguy777 FN was never one for saving cash.

@thorodinson3597 9 ай бұрын

That might not be necessary, if updated with the inherently slippery (wetted is the official term) modern composites. I use a proprietary one at work where adding liquid lubricants increases the surface area, and friction.

@frankdindl790 7 ай бұрын

@@thebowtieguy777I thought the wax was necessary because it was a straight walled high pressure cartridge fired from a blowback weapon?

@zippydaspinhead 3 жыл бұрын

"It pushes into the indent here on the magazine and the cartridges will.... yes just like that" Ian's internal monologue "That was the best demonstration I didn't mean to do"

@LOUDcarBOMB 3 жыл бұрын

7:30 Like Ian's reaction to the cartridges feeding out of the magazine (like it's inserted in the firearm) while Ian's describing what's happening in theory. His reaction is so genuine and surprised.

@pearson935 3 жыл бұрын

Ian is truly passionate about his work. Much respect

@robinblackmoor8732 7 ай бұрын

@@pearson935Ian is literally the best there is at this genre of videos.

@peterlindbergh8526 3 жыл бұрын

The charging handle is marked "H" because it's on the left. If it were on the right it would be marked "C". Any plumber would know this.😁

@Ni999 3 жыл бұрын

You are wise in the ways of useful pipes. 👍

@Stoic_grimace 3 жыл бұрын

Would you say, "going hot" every time you racked it?

@richardreeves7840 3 жыл бұрын

this made me LOL like I haven't in quite some time

@ShaddySoldier 2 жыл бұрын

Lmao

@robinblackmoor8732 7 ай бұрын

Wait a minute. Is that really true or a fantastic joke?

@myoptik3x103 3 жыл бұрын

Definitely has that Francisco Scaramanga feel. Thank you for bringing us this rare beast.

@henrysokol3466 3 жыл бұрын

'The Man With Three Nipples, a Midget Sidekick, and Literal 'Gun Cigarette Lighter' Somehow Nicknamed For Said Gun Being Glitzy.' Coming to a theater near *you*!

@jonahi1304 2 жыл бұрын

that's actually my favorite Bond movie. Christopher Lee killed it

@CAPTAiNC 3 жыл бұрын

And then kel-tec made the P50; A pistol that uses P90 mags lol

@rogainegaming6924 3 жыл бұрын

Time is a flat circle

@davidsolomie162 3 жыл бұрын

Me: Reads comment. Searches P50. Gets overwhelmed with confusion and fear.

@visassess8607 2 жыл бұрын

That thing looks like the automatic pistol from GTAV

@jimmyrustler8983 3 жыл бұрын

It looks like someone tried to make a Star Trek Phaser out of Delrin and Brass.

@evanwickstrom5698 3 жыл бұрын

And you could even set it to stun by keeping a magazine on you full of ratshot.

@evanjohnson1299 3 жыл бұрын

this gun was made before Star Trek: TOS

@jimmyrustler8983 3 жыл бұрын

@@evanjohnson1299 It'd be cool if the phaser was based on this. As goofy as it looks, it was lightyears ahead of its time at its conception.

@henrysokol3466 3 жыл бұрын

I know! Even that charging handle and mag release pin is echoed in the Phaser-II.

@faisalalghoneim3888 3 жыл бұрын

@Froddobaggins WasmyMilkman ميممخ

@jacobadams7440 3 жыл бұрын

Herman Mueschke was a brilliant guy and an absolute top tier gunsmith. Sadly he passed away shortly after I met him. Now that I have this on my mind I'm going to call my dad and make sure he still has the Colt Python that Herman built for him out of a box of parts he bought for $200.

@Nerdnumberone 3 жыл бұрын

This seems like the perfect feed system for a compact, bull-pup submachinegun/pdw. You can carry a lot of ammo without having a long magazine sticking out the bottom. Heck, this pistol is basically a bullpup proof of concept. The P90 really was a good application for the system.

@travishabursky4362 3 жыл бұрын

Its a box with a grip, boxy body, and a barrel. Thats genuinely impressive ergonomics for how different it was for the era.

@ghostmantagshome-er6pb 2 ай бұрын

prototype

@asteroidrules 3 жыл бұрын

That magazine catch design looks quite clever on its own, using the magazine spring as the latch spring is an interesting way to take advantage of putting the catch mechanism on the magazine rather than the gun.

@socalgn159 3 жыл бұрын

Its amazing how complicated that turn table system is and how the same thing was achieved in the magazine so simply with a spiral ramp and a pair of cylindrical roller followers. Turned a very complicated gun into something as easy to make as a 10/22.

@konnigkratz 3 жыл бұрын

*A blinding flash, making you avert your eyes....and there in front of you is Steampunk Hiram Maxim* "Have you seen Edison?"

@doranobannon7696 3 жыл бұрын

Wait what Does that mean that Hiram maxim travelled forward in time to when this gun was produced and then he asks for Edison, gives ya a few tips on your design and fucks off? Or u travelled back to a alternate steampunk Hiram maxims workshop?

@konnigkratz 3 жыл бұрын

@@doranobannon7696 Yes

@jm9371 3 жыл бұрын

ANOTHER super cool gun I never knew existed until now. It kind of figures that the P90 wasn't suddenly developed out of thin air, being so radically different.

@bulletinmyleg 3 жыл бұрын

Ian when are you gonna design your own "forgotten weapon" i would love to see all your knowledge of wacky weapons utallized into a crazy awesome design!!

@2MeterLP 3 жыл бұрын

Considering half of these videos end in "They made 100 and nobody bought them" and the other half in "The military feigned interest until the creator went bancrupt from waiting" I doubt Ian would be interested...

@skrimper 3 жыл бұрын

@@2MeterLP nah, that reasoning/logic makes no sense. The gun Jesus fanboys would swarm at a chance to buy a gun designed by Ian. Plus I can virtually guarantee you it'd be classy and sexy as fuck

@dakdewolf 3 жыл бұрын

Ian helped develop the WWSD project with Carl

@Mr_T_Badger 3 жыл бұрын

@@dakdewolf I was just about to say that too.

@kw9849 3 жыл бұрын

Ian's been over this on a Q&A; he's smart enough to realize that firearms design is very difficult and generally not profitable, so he isn't inclined to get into it. He's also mentioned a few times that he isn't that fond of gunsmithing either.

@thesmallestminorityisthein4045 3 жыл бұрын

Oh, Hill didnt like the NFA? We very much agree on that.

@grayeaglej 3 жыл бұрын

The NFA/ATF are both unlawful, immoral, and should be resisted as much as possible.

@brandoncoleman673 3 жыл бұрын

Most of us do.

@iridescentgreen 3 жыл бұрын

@@grayeaglej Weird way to spell like literally the entire government at this point lel

@grayeaglej 3 жыл бұрын

@@iridescentgreen Eh Everyone knows the Government cant Spell so why should I spell them out? They are all useless acronyms anyway O.o

@MikaelKKarlsson 3 жыл бұрын

Looks like something that an engineer from Khyber Pass who went to work for Elbonia would come up with.