He's the ultimate sylvanas fanboy.

He's also literally everywhere in Bfa, taking the spotlight out of alot of characters. Like he is in both BoD and Darkshore cinematics. He's in Nazjatar intro cinematic. He's the narrator for most Horde wqs in Bfa. He went from being a minor character to suddenly being the most involved and used character on the Horde side.

I remember liking him as a character back in Vanilla/TBC/WOTLK when I played. i remember going to the plaguelands and being like oh cool, this is a horde-allied character, but clearly strong enough that he has a backstory, which put him on the level of characters like Rexxar. but I can see how he is a 1-dimensional plot-armor servant to Sylvanas now and that's why it's just irritating now

I liked Nathanos in Legion especially when he gives the player character an indirect compliment along the lines of "finally someone competent arrives". I had hoped they had kept exploring that relationship about him being grumpy about everything but starting to trust and appreciating the player due to us meeting his expectations and scoring results.

He's painfully one dimensioned in his intentions, "I do stuff because my queen tells me, and I love her", no deeper than that.

I think the problem is that Nathanos didn't really change much. While it makes sense that he would treat you like crap in vanilla, in doesn't in retail. In vanilla, you where a random adventurer while he was a champion to his people. In retail this dynamic doesn't work because your character is the equivalent of god.

4:30 Best case would be dynamic writing where the npcs recognize what the character actually did when it was current content, it would increase the immersion a lot in pretty much all cases and would be a cool nostalgia trip - I dont want to be the champion of azeroth on every single character, it needs to feel earned and like something special. But yeah, that would actually require great writing and a lot more dialogue... Stuff like this would make me respect blizz more, going the extra mile

I like Nathanos but the Tyrande thing really pissed me off. Here’s how I would change it: Tyrande royally wrecks Nathanos. Suddenly the Valkyr arrive and grab his corpse (and the Horde Champion.) Back at camp Sylvanas uses one of her valkyr to save him. Tyrande looks good, Nathanos looks good, Sylvanas looks slightly more nuanced. Everyone would win and the end result is almost exactly the same. Blizzard hire me plz

Nathanos was fun when he was a rare treat in small doses. When he and Sylvanas got shoved into the spotlight that rate treat became the entire meal. Even chocolate gets overwhelming when it's all you have to eat. Edit: As to the whole "people say they don't want to be the big goddamn heroes" thing? There's a difference between being tired of being constantly fawned over by everyone and being constantly treated like shit. Nathanos falls, for me at least, way too far on the wrong side of that.

Hes voice helps a lot, and that is a big prop for his VA

I never liked in Forsaken that they hardly ever bear the consequences of their actions. Nathanos and Sylvanas are the greatest examples of this. You can see and feel how writers want these two never looks like losers. Even after losing to Tyrande, they were the last ones who smile. You can't like someone who gets away with everything.

There's a difference between "I want to just be an adventurer again" and "I want to be belittled constantly by some a-hole NPC". People saying they want the former are not disproven because they dislike the latter.

"Happened because plot armour" is like 80% of the problems I'm having with retail right now, lol.

I hate him because of his plot armor, that and the way he is showed into almost every single cinematic this expansion. He just has so much spotlight that the self-insert theory is something I could actually believe.

26th of December, 2019. Log Entry: Himuradx still says "eXscape".

When you do quests for him in EPL, when you complete the very last quest, he's finally a little nicer to you, saying you've earned a spot amongst his champions

Like his master he is a victim of the poor direction they took the writing in later WoW. He went from "A human so good he won the respect of the ranger general to join the order" to "Guy Syl liked and has wrapped around her fingers" Almost makes that achievement kinda seem like nepotism. He is a pure dog of the banshee queen now with unreasonable amounts of plot armor.

The problem with Nathanos talking down to players now is the fact that by this point player characters have taken on the likes of The LIch King, Deathwing, Lei Shen, C'Thun, Yogg Saron, Kil'jaden, Argus, and so on. It shows massive hubris to talk down to and belittle those who have faced literal god-like beings and not only survived, but won. Back in vanilla player characters were small time. Most probably hadn't even fought Ragnaros when they met Nathanos. Thus him talking down to them like they were lowly was less irritating because what he said wasn't far from the truth.

"Make yourself useful!" "Try not to get yourself killed....."

You're missing the point in something. Nathanos we see nowadays is NOT equal to Nathanos back in Vanilla. Yes, these two Nathanoses have their rude attitude to player char in common. But, if you read all the quests involving Nathanos in Vanilla, then you may actually notice two things: first, aside of being salty he actually demonstrates some bio and some backstory, and second, his attitude to player actually changes (slowly, but still) quest by quest as player proves self to him and in the end (after the quests into Stratholme) he even salutes with respect, or smth like that. What do we see in modern Nathanos, on the other hand? We see the thing that folks on TvTropes call "Flanderization": his most known trait - being salty - got taken up to eleven and frozen at that state (no matter what players do and how they prove worthy again and again), and all the other traits were practically forgotten. It gets repetitive and, as a result of that, annoying, especially considering how much "TV time" he takes now. On top of that, one thing is when Nathanos behaves like that as a field commander in badlands, and completely other thing is when he keeps shitting left and right after being appointed to a such high rank. While seeing this attitude to my char all I want now is to ask him: "Dude, what the F is your problem? What have actually you done to deserve your current rank and behave like you're a F-ing prince? Have you proven yourself as a veteran of multiple wars and effective commander, like Saurfang? Have you done some heroic deeds for the Horde, like Rexxar? Or, maybe, have you shown bravery and determination to stand up and fight against evil, even when it comes to disobeying your warchief, like Baine or Vol'jin? No. You got promoted to "the second man in the Horde" just thanks to Sylvanas, who considers you her favourite, and you're nothing without her. So stop barking and remember that you are such big man just as long as your mistress is in charge, while I am the hero of the Horde and Azeroth and will remain him no matter what happens tomorrow".

I’d rather be treated with skepticism and work my way towards being trusted and valued as a hero. I don’t want instant and constant praise, nor do I want instant and constant scorn. I want the actions of my character to make an impression on the characters I interact with throughout the story, not just have all my efforts get the EXACT same response to my every move. That too much to ask for?

That’s simple: he stopped thinking with his upper head and started to think only with his lower head. Also people don’t really like Sylvannas and her necrophiliac fanboys and Nathanos is their personification in game :V

I live for Nathanos' snark. He's such a smarmy bastard and I love him

Reading the short story 'Dark Mirror' would help a lot of people understand Nathanos. The most important thing to know about him is that he doesn't care about anything except his loyalty to Sylvanas. It says he really wants them both to just die so they can "endure damnation together" but his loyalty to her keeps him going with whatever she wants him to do.

"Hmh, speaker of the horde"

4:02 "Actually players who dislike being the chosen one secretly like being the chosen one and disliking the new Nathanos proves this!" like how the hell does one come to that conclusion?

I'm a simple man. I just want my dwarf hunter to finish the job he started in vanilla.

I think the self-insert hate comes not necessarily from him being some writer's actual self-insert, but rather that everything together makes him come across as some writer's self insert. The whole issue of his derisive character isn't that he insults you, but his elevated position with recent events conflicts with how the narrative decides to treat you, the player, in the grand scheme of things. When you were treated as just some schmuck who was so wet behind the ears that Nathanos even sparing the time for you did seem above his pay grade for someone of his history, it made sense in the narrative. But that time has long since passed. Whether you agree with the decision or not, your character is recognized for your accomplishments by the world itself, and even if there are npcs who are still lore-wise stronger and more important than you, they recognize that you aren't just some random adventurer, but someone who has fought demons, gods, and even planets themselves. Nathanos still treating you like dirt is fine, it is in line with his character and may be construed as him attempting to maintain his ego and elevate his own sense of worth by trying to put you and others down. It could even be a sense of character growth that he is being put into a higher position, yet his growth in power doesn't reflect it, and his insecurities about the situation - and his need to prove himself to the one he had sworn himself to - are coming out through behavior like that. Now THAT would be something fitting the narrative, and could be something that could be touched on, and later addressed with Nathanos slowly doing more to become stronger. I would be fine with some of the shit Nathanos has done, if I've seen over the course of the story things that explain how he has grown in power (something that I also call bullshit with Sylvanas, mind you. Starting to see a theme here.) Instead, the narrative is warped so that Nathanos is somehow, with little explanation, not just elevated in terms of governmental power through being the Warchief's right-hand man, but somehow has become powerful enough to compete on the level of people like Tyrande. I could accept Nathanos getting the drop on someone like Genn or Anduin or anyone else, but Tyrande (and Malfurion) are without a doubt among the top 5 heavy hitters the alliance has as individual powers. Sylvanas squeaking out a win is something I could believe with the way it was portrayed, but Nathanos? The only way I see even a draw happening (with the way it is portrayed in the game, not necessarily at all) is with the factual reality of the Horde player character backing up Nathanos due to the player's own track record, and that just opens a whole new can of worms. And this is not just normal Tyrande, but a Tyrande who basically decided to go full warrior and stop taking a passive role. So yeah, the whole issue is that Nathanos is being written with the same issues as if he was a self-insert character for the purposes of wish fulfillment, because the narrative of the story is being warped to fit him, rather than the other way around, and it is starting to aggravate people. It is one thing if he seems like he is trying to make himself seem bigger than he actually is, and I wouldn't even mind if care was taken to show his growth of power in a way the players can digest with any modicum of believability. When the writing begins to back up that exaggerated self-importance, and goes from a to c without showing b, it goes from just a character with an inflated sense of worth to a character who ruins the immersion of the players and the story.

His attitude. He is that kind of character, who was written to be hated. Similarly to Blackmoore.

He does just feel like an oc for someone who loves the corpse lady and really wanted an edgy character that live to serve her. Not that he actually is, but his whole character now feels like he is.

i like nathanos character he is a breath of fresh air alongside the honor, this honor, that in the horde. he hates working with you as much as you might hate working with him. he still does his job of helping you but he does not do it with a smile and i like that. is diferent he just send you to kill stuff because he was ordered to do it. we need more unlikeable characters. it helps to make the likeable characters more likeable in comparison.

See, I always got the feeling that Nathanos was in love with Sylvanas and she valued his service, but has gotten to the point that she's not really capable of, or doesn't prioritize *loving* anyone.

I want to see Genn shred him to pieces. Finally see the end of that duel they had in legion

I just want a minor character (itd be nice if it was the height of like a dwarf) to be constantly irritated with the player character during a questline and at the end you save him and you have the option of saying nothing and leaving or asking if he's finally impressed and if you choose the second option he jumps with all his might and slaps you hard in the face

Nathanos: I'm the most hated character in game Medan: I'm a joke to you?

I like his character,his storyline in classic was refreshing and quite fun to play out.

@4:00 Let me clarify a few things. First of all, we hate that Nathanos treats us like trash, not because we want to be treated like saviors/champions/gods; no, we hate it because in a world that already constantly turns us into saviors/champions/gods, Nathanos' belittling of us just comes across as forced, makes no sense, and frankly just makes HIM look pathetic. We don't necessarily *NOT* want to be celebrity champions. But we want to be given the CHOICE of whether or not our character is, and the choice of what it is that our character is known for. Or, in the absence of accommodating these choices by game mechanics, then at least the ambiguity enough to allow us to imagine these realities for our characters. That's what Vanilla had. And to lesser extents, that's what TBC and WotLK had. The world treated you like a person. Whether or not you are a famous person is up to your personal role-playing decisions. The problem with how Blizz is doing it now, is that they pigeonhole our personal story into such specificity that my character stops feeling like MY creation any more. My warlock can NOT possibly be the best man in Thrall's goddamn wedding. My rogue makes for a very bad spy if everybody knows his face and name. And lastly, the whole "sole savior" narrative just doesn't work in an MMO. The proverbial bubble of thinking that I am the sole wielder of the Doomhammer, is immediately burst by the number of shamans running around me, slapping things with it. If the intention was to make everybody feel special, well congratulations: it's making NOBODY feel special. It's a lot of work going into not achieving the desired effect. Might as well just cut back the work, and let players' imaginations and personal choices run wild.

Nathanos is one of my favorites characters in WOW, he is a badass, he has a cool backstory, he is loyal, i basic love everything about him, now about Thanatos surviving the Super night Elf couple, yeah that is king plot armor, or maybe they reveal later that Sylvanas was only buffing herself during BFA but Nathanos too, since this new version of Nathanos was created using part of Sylvanas power

For me it was the fact that I didn't know about his backstory and such and not really paying much attention to him in Legion seeing him come into a massive role in BFA and with plot armor is able to take on 2 of the strongest Night Elves we've ever seen. Just doesn't sit right with me. I can't wait to be through with him to be honest.

I love how rude he is. In this fantasy epic lore, with all the personality we see it's just refreshing. And i will like more people have different personalities. Someone suspicious someone rude and so on. Just give his character more time to grow and don't rush things. Like his storyline

nathanos has always been a fav of mine i mained hunter from bc to my current 'break' of wow, i still love him cuz hes just blunt and loyal. great vids keep em up

One reason I love the Horde is the rough and funny style. There is one dialog that matches up with that on the alliance side. When a rogue ask a dwarf npc for the way to the trainer. Otherwise the alliance npc's are boringly kind. Horde npc's still make me laugh after all these years. "Don't trust any living". Original Sylvanas was scary as hell and so was also Nathanos . That doesn't mean I hate them, it mean I am enjoyed.

I'm in the middle when it comes to the player character. I've done more than enough to be considered more than a simpleton adventurer, but I don't want the fame and glory of a chosen one either. I want my character to be a hero among many, not THE hero. As for Nathanos....yeah, he's overused, and even as a Horde player I acknowledge his fight vs Malfurion and a newly empowered Tyrande was prime quality plot armor bs. They could've actually killed him and then the val'kyr sacrifices herself to resurrect him. Same results, different outcomes.

Because they do not see him for the champion that he is. A stoic man who serves the order he believes in, and, of course, the woman he loves.

I actually don't mind Nathanos. In fact, he's fantastic. We need more mean characters in WoW.

Yeah, I still love Nathanos. I understand why he's so full of hatred for the Alliance, and I value his loyalty. He still rocks my socks, especially when sometimes he even compliments me. xD

Nathanos blightcaller is not some "thing" that's put in by a writer, he was known as Nathanos Marris he was the first and last human who got the title "Ranger lord" from the High Elfs from Quel'thalas and was close with Sylvanas Windrunner before they die, because he was a Ranger lord the most suitable is a hunter trainer if they wanted him to stay relevant in the game and his future in it.

I remembered him as an abusive quest giver back when I started playing wow in 08. I did all the eastern plaguelands quests because I was fascinated with that undead subplot. So I still have no issues with Nathanos, and I get people don't like him but I always kinda did. I also can only assume that Sylvonas shared some power with him as to why he escaped Tyronda but that's just head cannon not fact.

I thought I remembered him in the plaguelands! Killing him that is, I was alliance after all with my friends then...stupid feign death.

Nah man i thought it was much better when we were only soldiers or adventurers helping the big characters, if i wanted to be the protagonist I would just play diablo

I fukken loved him. I had "Blightbringer" locked forever since classic/bc on all servers I played

What add on is he using that makes the quests and dialogue show up like that? It looks clean

Why do we hate Nathanos? Defeated Argus and beat the burning legion only to get called a shitstain by this man

I absolutely love Nathanos. Definitely a fan favorite for me. Plus his voice actor is incredible.

I didnt even know who he was until Legion. I played alliance since vanilla and once I saw him following Sylvanas around, I really questioned who he was.

Hey, I didn't know a lot about this. Not even the "self" thing. Thank you so much for this video!

I just hate him for how his sass is written. When you showed the vanilla dialogue I couldn’t believe this was the same character. Now he sounds like how a moody teenager would insult me and I just roll my eyes every time he speaks. Do you remember how he ‘rOaStEd’ Malfurion and Tyrande? Tree elves. He just called them tree elves and acted so proud of himself for that one. Also, I’m just getting tired of sassy characters. I’ve seen so much fiction add sassy characters left and right recently and I’m supposed to think that this character, whose main selling point is that they disrespect their mum is cool for the upteenth time.

he's a constant source of amusement for me i hope blizz wont kill him off

What is the add-on you use for the quest text? That looks so cool and I have been wanting one to enhance my gameplay

Come on Varimarthras technically was the same and everybody loved him... so I guess the true problem is that what a demon could afford himself a human can't. ...

I think you forget about Fandrahl Staghelm. He wasn't particularly nice to players as a quest giver in Darnassus.

I personally like Nathanos. Then again, I only play alliance so I've never formally met the guy.

What UI mod did you use for this vid? I like keeping a vanilla-style UI bar but i love how much longer it is than the default

Read that short story about him, you'll hate him even more.

what? who hate nathanos? he's like one of the most interesting characters of the horde right now, also our only hope for vampire elves, we love him

Nathanos took awhile but he grew on me. His "so done with this" attitude kept making me chuckle. I do wish he had a few more dimensions to him other than "Because my queen told me to". Blizzard slacked on that.

I think the problem is that he is such a front and center character. Having a minor character insult you can be fun because it takes you off guard and it differs from what youre used to, but when one of the main characters of an expansion is always peeking over your shoulder and insulting you for every step you take it gets very old very fast.

I think the biggest issue is that we seem to be playing a game of extremes here. On the one hand, we have everyone who won’t shut up about how amazing we are, and on the other we have someone who won’t shut up about how much he hates us. And we have to talk to him ALL the time. On top of the fact of his absolute blind loyalty to Sylvanas, a character who a lot of people, myself included, are not really enjoying the direction they’re taking in. I feel like, instead of having NPCs either adore or hate you, have characters change opinions, as well as have a spread of different personalities. Have assholes who treat you like dogshit, have people who either have no idea who you are or have heard of you but dont really give a shit. Have fanboys, friends, enemies and assholes

It really bothers me that Blizzard changed his model to look less decayed. There’s slim pickings for notable Forsaken and those we have don’t actually have appearances that reflect the race.... I don’t think any other race gets this treatment except maybe Kul Tirans who’s main NPCs all have the standard human model. Pity.

I never knew he was an unpopular character. I personally never had a problem with him, I enjoyed the horde war campaign with him and I can't even recall him talking bad at me or anything.

love your videos, thanks for always educating me on the game i love

honestly he's a villain when you think about it and if everyone hates a villain you wrote that dude correctly. i know not all villains are hated, but there are plenty of villains that are hated and people are like "great character!". the only problem i have is him taking down malfurion and tyrande.

I actually like the big guy. I love his snarky put down lines.

I think a lot of people hate modern Nathanos because he is mindless and nonsensical in his allegiance to Sylvannas and his priorities are completely wrong. Or at least, that's how I see it. I was hoping and expecting him to break free of Sylvannas's mind-control and become the new Forsaken rep/leader.

Tbf, since my main character is a male Blood Elf warlock, I had always interpreted his snarks as him being somewhat jealous of my character getting Sylvana's attention and "praise".

The sad thing about the whole "I liked it better when our character was a nobody" thing is that it's kinda unavoidable. As in, it's hard to return them to a nobody when they slay gods and save the world every other year. Hell, celebs get praised constantly for less. And our character has undoubtedly reached celeb-tier fame at this point. The real problem is that Blizzard doesn't want to find a balance between "constant praise" and "I don't care who you are" because they have no interest in portraying our character as an actual _character_ of the story. Unlike other MMOs like Final Fantasy 14, Elder Scrolls Online and Destiny 2, our character has no personality, no emotions or commitment, no part in the story beyond being the hero who slays the villain, _and no real relationship with any of the characters._ And thus, it's impossible to give the characters any other view of them, because they cannot interact or engage with them, they're just a vessel for us - the players - to witness the story, not a fictional person who is _a part_ of the story. ...Or something like that. Idk if any of that makes sense lol I've just wanted to say it for a long time (especially since I've never heard anyone else say it) and this seemed like a good excuse. Anyway, great video!

I remember at the start of BFA, they didn't change Garona's voice lines, so when you went to the table and talked to her, she'd bust right out the gate with "Get bent!". Which I loved. I genuinely do want just... The entire horde to treat you like garbage. Talk to some military drill instructors and maybe bring back some acceptable cuss words. Cataclysm got away with saying 'bitch' at least twice and countless 'damn's, but if the Horde is going to be seen "The evil ones" then at LEAST roll with it. I am sure the T-rating will let them get away with more stuff like that.

Nathanos has been my favorite since vanilla. And still is. I have my forsaken hunter since Cata pre-patch.

Honestly, as someone who has played off and on since Vanilla, I quite like Nathanos. He very much fit the mold of that fairy tale huntsman in a lot of ways, serving the evil stepmother and/or wicked witch. He's driven, very intense, while at the same time having this subdued sort of demeanor and unlike almost every other big named character seems to care little about the larger world happenings unless doing things because Sylvanas tells him to. He's also shown to be capable, and doesn't put up with shit. lol. We're so used to being fawned over by half the world leaders, that it just makes for a nice change of pace.

What addon is being used for the quest dialogue and rewards?

He’s my favourite character: P

You gotta admit, Nathanos' new model having a passing resemblance to the writer doesn't help with the self-insert rumors.

I knew NOTHING of Nathanos before I started the Legion and BFA quests but he immediately became my favorite WoW character once I completed a few of the quests. I love the snark he gives you, it's so much different than any of the other characters. I usually don't give any mind to most of the NPCs in-game because most of them are just boring and say the same things over and over again, treating you like the hero, so it all just becomes background noise after a while. But as soon as I began his quests, I was actually having a great time listening to his lines and seeing how he treats the player. Love this guy so much.

I have no problem with him, been a hunter since day 1. I like him, I would like for him and the dark lady to admit their love for each other.

I love it when characters are rude like that. It makes them less generic. The more drama, the more interesting it gets.

People dislike Danuser:s changes to the character because they seem to stem more from his own fanboyism than what is necessary or interesting. And yes he does read more like, not a self ínsert, but a character that suffers from alot of writer projection when you compare it to his other stuff. It's kinda like Jaina and Christie Golden.

On him beating the T&M connection. He's probably also getting a power boost the same way Sylvanas is

What is the quest addon that is displaying quest text and dialogue like it is in the video?

well i like Nathanos as one of the few. He is a lovely character and it gives a fresh breath of air for how he is against you

People hate his post-Legion version mostly because he is written as Sylvanas' boy toy. Aaaaaand we know the issues with Sylvanas' writing.

I didn't know nathanos till Legion and I personally liked the character. I love that not everyone is like "OH HI OH MIGHTY CHAMPIONS OF THE HORDE! LET ME DO YOU A BJ :))))

I feel your reasons were stated in like, opposite order of why people dislike him. No one gives a shit about his personality, almost everyone I see complaining is about the self-insert rumors/love interest thing. In order from most to least its self-insert > love interest > plot armor > attitude.

i feel like he is Starscream and Sylvanas is Megatron

Back in vanilla (and now classic), alliance had a kill quest on him. This normally would take maybe 10-15 people tops as if it weren't for 2 major problems. The first is everytime anything, and I mean ANYTHING restores hp on a player fighting Nathanos (bloodthirst, crusader, hots, bandages, direct heals, etc.) He would summon 2 skeletons that hit really hard and fast. This alone killed healers pretty fast as it would quickly build up to dozens or even hundreds of skeletons swarming the raid. The second arguably BIGGER problem is that EPL was a high level pvp hotspot. Attacking nathanos would alert world chat and local defense the EPL is under attack. Since he was the only NPC in the zone that could set that alarm off, it was a world alarm that alliance were trying to complete that raid quest and horde en masse would flood the zone to wipe them. The combination of horde and a skeleton army flooding the farmstead made the quest essentially impossible on pvp servers. Throw on really poor quest rewards as icing on the cake and no one actually killed him on alliance back in phase 1-3 classic and in vanilla. I rate Nathanos: Cool guy out of ten. Anything storyline in wow after wotlk should just be considered nonsensical fan fiction by a mentally challenged story writer (who thinks sylvanas is his waifu).

I don't hate Nathanos. I think he was the best character we had. It is sad he died.

I wanted him to lead the Forsaken after Sylvanas. But now all I can hope for is Gunther Arcanus, Alonsus Faol or Commander Belmont.

4:25 there's a difference between a character that treats you like a normal adventurer and a character who is just an asshole

You should make a video like this for Genn Greymane, like Nathanos he is hated by most Horde and Alliance players alike.

Steve Danuser is the the creative director for WoW, so he is responsible for the plot lines of many characters and their dialogues.

I actually like Nathanos. He always struck me as a rival trying to keep Sylvanas' favor. I'm this new champion that comes along threatening the old champion's status. So him being rude makes sense. I suppose once his forsaken body was replaced with something that resembled his old one. I think he's wearing his nephew's body. He could have mellowed out a little. Had some character growth. That might have helped his position.