Expect more discussion vids like I mentioned before! Just keep the comments civil though 🤫

We know, bro. We know.

Salad: "everyone grows so absurdly quickly" Goten and trunks: 😭😭

I think the main issue is just the fact that it mostly focuses on pure strength and linear scaling. They have played around with it before, but 90% of the fights in the entire series come down to who has the bigger number. Other Shonen series use other factors to judge “power” where a character might not be physically stronger but they have some weird quirk (mha pun not intended) that makes them very hard to deal with. Outside of like Hit and a handful of other characters, the only variable Dragon Ball tweaks is power level. This has led to insane power levels. By the end of Namek most of the main fighters are well above the planet buster power level of 10K that is stated in the manga. I can’t imagine what Gohan, Vegeta, Goku, or Piccolo could do at their current levels in the manga. This isn’t even a dig at the series I still love it, but power levels are and always have been pretty silly.

Future Trunks closing the gap with fused Zamasu was the most egregious example imo but the entire tournament of power just throws out all of the rules and let's people scale up for no reason other than cool fight

It always blows my mind how they can expect earth-level heroes like Roshi and Krillen to keep up with something like the tournament of power, and yet they do! Realistically, the power differentials have gotten so huge that Jiren should be able to blink and literally atomize someone like Krillen from the pressure.

I can agree with this, trying to powerscale in dragon ball is painful

Not to mention that Beerus and Whis feels like an ever moving goalpost for Goku and Vegeta to the point that I don't even know what the point of DBS is anymore. Goku and Vegeta really do all this training and we're still limited to U7's inhabitants while we still wonder how strong the Grand priest is as well as many other beings across the multiverse that have yet to be revealed to us.

in the Saiyan and Freeza saga, people liked Power Levels, Toriyama hated that so banished the whole system of power levels, so people started power scaling in Android and Buu sagas, now it appears Toriyama wants to destroy power scaling too, in which case... (Farmer with Shotgun vs Super Saiyan 4 grand Priest Vegito) should be a close match XD

Powerscalling in super can make anyone's brain go in a Comatose State.

3:15 Cabba being strong enough to solo the buu arc is weird, but what's even weirder is that some people think that Teen Gohan (Ssj2) from the Cell Saga is just as strong/stronger than him.

Glad you brought this up: The characters get stronger way too damn quickly, it's not even just the absurdity of Freiza's 4 month training, it's EVERYONE.

Super's Power Scaling just doesn't exist at this point

I agree. The main thing in my opinion, is in the original it was about style, technique, and finding a way to work around the bigger power level. Now it’s, I have bigger number, no I have bigger number, I’m stronger than you! And of course, all it takes is someone finding a new transformation (usually Goku), and then the whole show changes. I liked super saiyan, super saiyan two, but after god forms, it became super ridiculous. I love the video btw!

The most annoying thing is that Ty hey are so much higher than planet buster, yet their battles rarely even really destroy planets

Piccolo instantly destroying power scaling with a single quote.

Agreed. Especially with the u6 Saiyans being even with the u7 base Vegeta should’ve mollywhopped SSj3 if Cabba had it

Honestly it's gotten to the point where I just blockout the power scaling when watching or reading super simply because it just makes everything feel stupid which is sad because it shouldn't be that way but there's nothing we can do

Power scale in dbs is like trying to solve the millennium puzzle.

Things like MUI Goku getting binked by Granola only to just fight on par with Gas in SSB is just horrid scaling that makes me cringe.

Universe 6 saiyans should be around raditz and nappa, gohan should’ve be that strong, piccolo should’ve only reached super saiyan 3 level, cell max should be around super buu level or higher since it was built to be as strong as goku but the scientists shouldn’t be able to make robots with god ki or capable of fighting gods, and finally broly shouldn’t have been able to keep up with goku or vegeta

For Super Hero, I just say Gamma 1 and 2 are around (if not a little stronger) than Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta. I just can’t believe that both Gamma’s would be on par with or stronger Ultra Instinct Goku from the Moro Arc.

I remember when Goku powering up to SS3 caused the entire Earth to shake, but SSGSS doesn't cause any issues even though it is something like, 10000x more powerful than SS3 Goku was back in the Buu saga. Even base Goku and Vegeta should literally shake the planet from a little light training or sparring at this point, and since every fighter except maybe Yamcha, Goten, and Trunks are all at power levels that put them in the top 20 or so known beings in Universe 7, they should also be causing issues when training.

The scaling was garbage since buu saga

Can we admit that beerus holding back in battle of gods by the billions and or millions is now not so crazy people were clowning mfers back in 2019 when people were saying that on facebook & twitter lol

The moment we went from 'Frieza and his family were so powerful that they ruled a large swathe of the galaxy' to 'earth creates robots (which, lets remember, due to their nature can be mass produced instead of just making 5) that completely surpass Frieza' it just goes downhill in terms of scaling.

dragon ball is the only franchise i know where an assassin is fully capable of blowing up a universe with his punches

Love your what ifs there super fun to watch keep up your good work.

Krillin and 17 boxing with blue goku is ridiculous and even Gohan really but I’ll let Gohan slide

True bro but oh my god that statement saying base goku from the end of the T.O.P could be stronger than vegito blue from the future trunks arc really got me thinking that this has become a HUGE issue in dragon ball

Nice timing just got home so get to watch this plus get to continue my ritual that's been going on for who knows how many years now where I eat diner while watching a salad what if everyday

I completely agree with every last point you made. Don’t think this is controversial at all. It’s insane.

The end music and great ducussion got me thinking alot. It's not really big of an issue for me but I would like more emphasis on techniques then transformations bc they gonna run out of colors to use eventually

The saiyans getting stronger exponentially I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is that Gohan Piccolo Frieza and Broly closing the gap without God Ki.

Great video as always, is that some silent hill 2 music you used in the background?

We need more vids like this, enjoy videos we're we get to hear Salads thoughts

I think what Piccolo meant when he said that the Gamma’s were on par with Goku & Vegeta is that they were on par in SSB. As Toriyama has said that Orange Piccolo is on par with Ultra Ego and UI and Orange Piccolo punched Gamma 2 unconscious or whatever that expression was (quote from Toriyama: “I’m personally glad that he finally has obtained a fighting strength that rivals that of Goku and the others”) Edit: He pointed it out nvm

My biggest issue started with Beerus and Whis. Specifically, Whis's comment on how much power Beerus used against SSG Goku. The iterations and translations vary from 5%-10%-20% hell, even 70% of Beerus was used in the movie. And the issues with this are that if any of these are true, then Beerus is pointless now. Hell he was pointless by the universe 6 tourny. Even if we say he used 5% power against God Goku, then Blue Kaioken x20 Goku should already be able to steamroller Beerus even if we don't count the Zenkai boosts.

Honestly U6 saiyan power would have made more sense if their evolution was stated to let them embody the totality of the great ape and full super saiyan power in their base.

Goku and Vegeta used the beyond God state in all super and with Freezer too their level un base only surpass SS Goku from namek arc

I do agree plus on top of that power scaring in the dragon ball universe is really complicated I understand there is certain degree they grow either slow or fast but it's really game out of control because if their power level pulls to be a certain point why they keep growing even further beyond I feel like they're doing like a timescape and not focusing on the main thing because who posted to be having the power scale or try to keep certain things balances

Real question, why do I have to play your vids in .75 playback speed for them to sound normal?

The reason they mention Jiren as the pinnacle of power in Super Hero, is because the script for the movie was made before the Moro arc, so I don't know about Toriyama's statements, but Piccolo saying that the Gammas are Goku level definitely doesn't mean UI Goku. As for the Cabba thing, I always considered that base Goku's power was retconned after the resurrection F saga, there is no way kaioshin Zamasu is above battle of gods SSG Goku to give another example. That's why in the manga Goku never absorbs the god power. Also this is more controversial, but I don't think that BoG God Goku > Z Vegito. Salad if you read this, please reply or heart my comment, I would really appreciate it.

Power scaling I never see people address is Vegeta. Everyone always says gohan gets cheap upgrades yet Vegeta went from SSJ2 to SSB in such a short time.

do what if Frieza turned good, or just somthing where frieza does something like in what if cooler was cannon

i love your vids always watch them

Do the full episode to episdoe scaling I would love to see it!

When i saw krillin 17 and gohan holding their own vs super saiyan blue Goku was when i lost hope😂

The thing that I find most irritating about DBS Powerscaling is that they pretty much imply that every character is Universal+ (scaling off of Goku who supposedly absorbed God-Ki into his base form during the Beerus fight), which isn't necessarily a bad thing in itself...but...when your verse is limited to 12-Universes...IT IS!!!

This is one of the reasons why I love Dragon Ball Multiverse. The power scaling is extremely consistent and characters aren't this absurdly strong for no reason

Wassup bro can you make a senario of dragon ball AF pls?

End Of Small Sanctuary from Silent Hill 3 in the background?

Thx dude can’t wait to watch this

I can justify Frieza never training and becoming busted but I draw the line at Master Roshi vs Jiren

The manga has much better power scaling as goku and vegeta don't have such insane growth and have better reasons for it, along with goku black's growth being more logical and rooted in zenkai's with there being a clear progression from super saiyan-super saiyan rose, and technique plays a bigger factor in it, such as true UI and spirit control. The main problem with dragon ball is that it doesn't have something apart of its power system that's different from raw strength. Naruto has its eye abilities and jutsu which, while broken, are set apart from raw strength like taijutsu and one piece has kenbushoku and haoshoku haki which provide different abilities for fights aside from the power based busoshoku haki.

I usually blame Buu and Shin for why Universe 7 is simply just miles behind in power and overall quality of life compared to every single universe by a significant margin. Buu killed all the competent kais 10 million years before the Buu saga I think, so I’m guessing the Saiyans were created some time after that by Shin who is so embarrassingly weak that even an apprentice from the 10th universe isn’t even in the same league as him. He clearly has no idea what he’s doing, and the Elder Kai has clearly never been a reliable source of information(mortal time limit). Beerus is no help either. So the credit for the Universe 7 Saiyan for growing so powerful despite the fact they are literally insects at birth is well deserved. They had to earn all they have. Base Cabba soloing Buu saga with no difficulty is the result of the Gods of the Universe being straight up inferior to every other universe in terms of productivity.

This is a pretty good video, only two things is would be that the Movie continuity is meant to occur in both Manga and Anime. That's why it's so vague, so it can fit within both continuities. Additionally, sometimes the editing (especially with that warbling effect you see form 2:30 to 4:30) is a bit distracting

Love the discussion video. It definitely seems to me like the whole power scaling started to really go out the window once power levels were done away with. But at the same time imagine if they had tried to keep power levels throughout the entire series? It would be like playing Diablo 3, just throwing up a bunch of progressively absurd numbers that people just have a hard time grasping. Plus as you've mentioned strength seems to be tied to being able to win a fight so much that if concrete numbers were kept on power levels, this might just further complicate things as far as scaling and outcomes go. Doesn't seem like something we as fans can do much about but just kind of discuss. Keep up the great work Salad.

5:00 To elaborate a bit more on why some people think base Goku at the end of TOP is stronger than Vegito blue during Goku black arc. Basically the Goku at the start of TOP is a little (or a a lot) stronger than his Goku black arc counterpart which is some what comparable to base Vegito give or take. And he got whooped by Jiren no difficulty in blue kaiokenx20. But he got stronger after ui and is now fighting Ssj2 Kefla who is stronger than the spirit bomb multiple times while fatigued in ui. Than grow so much stronger when he used blue kaiokenx20 against Jiren with Vegeta Jiren needs to what try (he even tanked Jiren’s attack in base at some point which will probably tear the Goku blue in Goku black arc apart). He then went ui one last time against Jiren who is now at ~90% power and evolved into mui. Proceeds to destroy the same dude who destroyed him just ~30 minutes ago. At the end when Goku is fighting Jiren alongside Frieza and 17 he is fighting Jiren base to base while being arguably more fatigued than Jiren because he just recovered from the drawback of using mui not even 30 seconds ago. The same Jiren who surpassed himself and is stronger than ever is unable to bliz base Goku. Where does Vegito blue stands in all of this? Possibly not even at blue evolved Vegeta since Ssj2 Kefla is stronger than the spirit bomb who is below suppressed Jiren that is already stronger than infinite Zamasu. The same one that Vegito blue can’t defeat. At the end what is the point of all this powerscalling? Idk, super is kinda stupid.

Isn’t there a novel or movie manga / screenshot comic continuity too ?

5:02 I saw an argument like that before

Actually, concerning the power level of Universe 6 Saga Cabba, we can say that he would more likely be equal to Base Vegeta WITHOUT GOD Ki. Using God Kid against opponents like Frost or Cabba, would have been overkill. Battle of Gods Base Goku would have been at around 40 million, because Beerus stated that there was no way Goku could have beaten Frieza in Base. Vegeta's power during Battle of Gods would have been far lower as a result. Then we do not know what type of training Vegeta and Goku undertook on Whis' planet, and how much it helped them improve their base stats, seeing that they mostly trained for the control of God Ki, and for SSJ Blue. We know that Goku trained in the time chamber mainly to put Kaioken on top of SSJ Blue, and not necessarily to improve his base. Vegeta probably focused a lot more on conserving energy while in SSJ Blue. So, if Vegeta's base form without God Ki would have been below 70 million, that would still not be too OP for somebody like Cabba, who was fighting all the time against countless foes.

I just wanna know how powerful is base, potential unleashed and orange piccolo 😞

It just feels like the gap in power is too big now. With vegeta it did feel like goku was stronger, but the fact that goku lost to vegeta and they still beat him made the gap seem not as big. With freezer the gap felt pretty big after goku turned SS, but the fact that trunks warned them all and they trained for 3 years made it so the gap could shrink again. And after gohan turned SS2, the gap was huge again but then gohan got weaker over time so they all were more evenly matched again. And after the buu saga it didnt feel like the gap was there since they defeated buu with the spirit bomb and goku being SS1, he didnt go SS3 and just beat him with power. It only became a problem with god ki since noone besides goku and vegeta had access to it, so the tournament of power felt less like all 10 fighters were evenly matched. Vegeta and Goku have special training with the gods now so any mortal training seems pointless in comparison.

6:31 lmao you can see the superhero clip through his mouth and nose

someone who didnt watch dragon ball till the tournament of power i am confused did goku give birth to gohan before all those events see i would go start dragon ball from the beginning but i wont

will salad saiyan make what if about son of good cooler today yes are no

Please make a video on how Android 17 became soo powerful I’m still confused

At this point I believe they should make the anime and manga two different timeline cause a lot of stuff aren't add up when you compare the anime and manga together

I find funny how different are what the spanish and english communities at powerscaling. Spanish:humans can't pass 200.000 of power level, goku and vegeta can activate at will god ki making their base go from slightly stronger that their buu saga to as strong that ssg, and ultimate gohan is the same in super and z. English: base cabba can solo dbz, ultimate gohan is as strong as ssb and base goku is stronger that blue vegetto.

I mean, there has to be some sort of explanation, for example, cabba probably has been training the entirety throughout z, even though he wasnt a thing then, kindo like those Minecraft KZfaqrs after doing off camera mining

Honestly, the moment I didn't take power levels an scaling seriously in DBZ was when Vegeta effortlessly erased that bug planet and yet the fights on Earth were nowhere near the scale such power should produce in a fight. I could understand if it was just shifting from a wide area blast to a much more concentrated attack, that would make sense, but this was never explained and so we don't have a reason to believe that is the case. Plus, such an idea is unlikely to be true since throughout the series, the more powerful an attack, the larger it is. Consistently.

Cabba is from u6 the u6 saiyans could of existed millenias longer then u7 saiyans who were destroyed because they were getting too powerful. On top of that, cabba, and caulifla are the strongest known saiyans on their planet. They could simply just be rare high potential saiyans like broly

I disagree with base Cabba being God level. Goku's godly base in resurrection F seemed to be more of a power up then literally just being his base form. If Super Saiyan Blue is Super Saiyan with the powers of a Super Saiyan God and Goku and Vegeta still use normal Super Saiyan, it tells me that Goku and Vegeta aren't always using the powers of a God. If you really think about it, every fight after battle of gods where Goku had in Super Saiyan, he never fought God level characters. He only used Base/Saiyan Beyond God against Monaka Costume Beerus, and Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta. Everything else is a mess though especially ssj2 Trunks in the black saga. Excluding MUI and Ultra Ego, I doubt Goku and Vegeta have surpassed Vegito. Vegito's base alone according to Vados, a base Potara fusion is both characters at their strongest multiplied by 10s of times meaning Base Vegito in the black saga was at least around 40 times stronger than SSB Goku if we say Goku and Vegeta were equal and that's ignoring Kaioken.

If you want more powerscaling content in super with actual power levels and numbers, watch sayian scholar, he scales the full super manga to power levels from Z

This is the best argument/discussion I've seen about the power scaling. It never really made any sense to me

What if Goku didn't go into the RoST alone as a kid? (I have a feeling he only went in as a kid in the anime?)((I don't care if that's the case I still want answers or a what-if lol))

Yo, I’m pretty sure the whole gammas power scaling thing is alright, I mean I don’t think the red ribbon army would be able to get info from ultra instinct, but they would with super saiyan blue through resurrection F, and so, they prolly on the same level as blue evolution… so I’m pretty sure that solves that. I did agree with the rest of the video though, getting rid of power scaling makes it tough to make sense of the battles and evolutions

You're absolutely right. Remember when the gods said that Jiren is stronger than the god of destructions? If Black Frieza makes TOP Jiren look like a joke, isn't he way stronger than Beerus? Beerus acts like he clears everyone which is kinda weird because Beerus should know that Frieza outclasses him

Lets be real here The powerscaling has been completely lost ever since the beginning of Saiyan saga. We went from 100s to 100s of millions because of a galactic tyrant. Then somehow Gero comes up with Androids way stronger than that. A few years later everyone has to be multi-turbo-universal+++++ to even breathe the same air as our main cast Im not even gonna say anything about Frieza and his comeback. You already know

power scaling right was when crillin tried to avenge c-18 and got a broken spyne in less than a sec

Hmmm, "What if dbz and dbs had good power scaling?"

So I am not only one who noticed this I mean how th would godlike saiyan be even with regular saiyan who should be at most saiyan saga vegeta level

I feel like the solution should've just been, leave the God forms as an absolute, last resort. It coulda help with keeping Super Saiyan and it's forms relevant while also keeping the immense power of the God forms present. So say, Frieza coming back. SSJ3 level power. Sure he's still a planet buster, but it's much more in line of a technique than a direct scale of power. Then U6 vs U7 Tournament. Hit still forces Goku to use SSB Kaioken but it's to a much insanely quicker fight and the power actually leaves Goku very much drained afterwards. Black rolls out. God and SSB are relevant completely, along with SSJ because Black is tapping into Saiyan powers while also being a God, and the escalation of his powers correlate with the forms needing to be used against him. So on, so forth. TL;DR - God forms should be last resort, not first thing they do.

The anime has been terrible since the start at handling power levels and power scaling When Goku unlocked God form, he could go toe to toe with a serious Beerus (in the movie the God said he used 70% of his power to defeat Goku and, even though they later deleted that line in the anime adptation of those events, it is still implied that Goku forced him to go serious even in the "anime universe" otherwise he would have just destroyed earth had he not got any satisfaction from the duel with the Sayan) However, when one arc later he unlocks Kaioken Blue x10 (and later x20), this is still not enough to surpass Beerus and all of a sudden Blue, a form even stronger than the one which forced a GoD to turn at least a bit serious , becomes weaker than Beerus at his 4% or 5%...something even below the "I'm toying with you" level But things got even worse and more inconsistent with Blue Vegeta being as successful as Kaioken Blue ×20 Goku in pushing back Zamasu's attacks and Goku shocking the Gods of destruction so much when he turns Blue that one of them even claims that "his power rivals that of the Gods" (I know that rivals=/=equals, but how come is 4% of their power enough to rival them????) Then you have the Tournament which not only is one of the worst battle ever written (the fighters almost never run out of stamina despite never holding back, Goku recovers from 1 near death experience and 2 or even more all out duels in a matter of seconds and almost everyone receives random and huge power ups for no reason at all), but also creates another inconsistency because Goku, despite being now stronger than Jiren (a guy stonger than the Gods), is still weaker than Beerus even after unlocking Ultra Instinct The manga did a good job at dealing with these issues (no Kaioken, people losing battles due to stamina in each arc, no stupid and/or undeserved power ups like that given to Trunks, etc) but even there has been some inconsistencies lately (mostly Goku non being stronger than Beerus despite being on Jiren's tier)

I’ve been scratching my head over this since Golden Freeza lol

Yes.

What piss me of is that a new transformation make Goku 1 quintillon times more powerfull but when this new Goku fights is no different that the base Goku in freeza saga.

yeah plot wise it seems stupid that cabba is just immediately as strong as them. like don't saiyans get stronger by fighting? and aren't the universe 7 saiyans peaceful? if that's the case they should be even weaker than the saiyans that were blown up by freiza in the past. unless you add a backstory where cabba has been through countless life and death situations to protect the peace of his planet, he really shouldn't be that strong lol.

kid goku and early super goku both replied an “ow” to a bullet. and guess the power level difference between the two of them.

THE BLINKING. OH GOD THE BLINKING

I agree with this the power scaling makes some or no sense i don't understand it somewhat but good video

90% of the powerscaling problems wouldn’t exist in Super if they removed the idea of Super Saiyan God being absorbed into base. It’s one of those things that only made sense in Resurrection F and then produced actual nonsense in every subsequent arc.

Well except the humans for a series aimed to entertain humans it certainly leaves humans out way to much

It definitely doesn't, like Goku using SS1 them jump STRAIGHT into SSB, skipping all the other forms. Not to mention so many OP characters. Dragonball Z seems more refined until the Buu Saga.

The gammas are really simple. They're around blue level due to gamma 1 stalemating ultimate gohan who is shown to be blue level in super.

Story is more important than power scaling when it’s all said and done. Fun to do. But doesn’t really matter and doesn’t change the stories.

See, as a writer, the way I think about it, "Powerscaling doesn't matter." Basically, all things are secondary to making things interesting and furthering the themes. It's why I've never much cared for powerscaling in general. As an example, I'll use Future Trunks. Does it make sense that Future Trunks can compete with Goku Black just from getting angry? No, not at all. But I don't care, because it results in Trunks being able to take part in the defense of his home. It would feel sorta flaccid if Trunks gained a power boost, only to then be jobbed out entirely. I think you're right in saying that the problem comes from how battles are handled in Dragon Ball. In another series, Trunks could have gained some sort of unique ability that allowed him to participate in the fight while Goku and Vegeta took the brunt of the damage. That also introduces its own issues story-wise, but it would make more sense powerscaling wise. Still, I think in general, Dragon Ball Super has less clean writing, which makes the stupid powerscaling much more prevalent. Z also had some dumb powerscaling, specifically in the Cell Arc, but it was disguised by the writing being much tighter. Basically, TL;DR: Power levels are bullshit

Power Scaling is kind of dumb for this reason. The point of debating things like this is to have fun. It doesn't matter who's stronger it's just fun to talk about. I think power scalers have ruined this over the years and made the community worse because of it. "Goku solos" is one of the worst things to happen to the anime community besides all the racism, misogyny, etc.

And this is why at times I like GT More