Stan Lee was sweeping the floors and bringing coffee when Kirby was creating Captain America, The Newsboy Legion and a host of others. Stan Lee is to comics what Ringo was to music; the luckiest son of a b**** in history. If Stan Lee hadn't met Kirby, he'd still be sweeping the floors... Kirby IS the Marvel Universe. Period.

This is such a TIRED argument. Stan deserves MORE than "50% of the credit" because he was not just the writer he was THE EDITOR and in that position of power he was able to define the direction of how stories were told at Marvel! Lee expanded on his "super heroes with super problems" theme, which he admitted started out as a "gag", to the point where it became the number one feature about Marvel Comics that readers responded to, leading to increased sales! Besides this, Lee started giving out BYLINES to many people on the Marvel assembly line, going even further than BILL GAINES who only featured artists but still not yet writers. In many industries, bylines or "credit" is scarce but Stan Lee paved the way to making them a STANDARD in American comics! As a person with a background in the creative arts, I've never subscribed whole heartedly to the tendency to pit one creator against another because I see it as childish. We should be grateful that Stan and Jack got together in the first place and created so many great characters, while never forgetting Steve Ditko, Don Heck, Gene Colan and many others who also contributed to the Marvel Age of Comics!

I agree. We can argue or speculate how much credit Stan should or should not get, but, we can't argue that Jack is the most prolific comic artist of all time. From the earliest days of comics (Captain America ) to drawing romance books to drawing monster and war books, (that were ALL top of the charts BTW) Jack wrote and remade the book on how comics are made and it all culminated in the Fantastic Four until the New Gods and Kamandi. Stan always will be comic's greatest ambassador, no doubt, but, he is no where near the visionary Jack was. Plus, lets be real: Stan didn't do anything nearly as good before and after Kirby.

@@KTF0 Stan the Ambassador and Jack the Visionary. Apt descriptions. I like it.

"Jack did the product, Stan sold it" - Marv Wolfman, Marvel's Editor-In-Chief

I wouldn't say Stan Lee deserves respect but he does deserve credit..... just a way smaller amount then he would have had you believe.

@@danielmoore9209 Fourth World was no where near as schlocky as Stan's writing. Have you read Stan's Silver Age stuff? The over the top narration. The one note character stereotypes and restating character descriptions over and over again. 60's Batman knew it was campy and revelled in it. I'm not even sure if Stan realized until someone else filled the EIC and writer positions. The whole drama between the New Gods and their nemeses was far beyond that at Marvel. Elements such as Orion and Mister Miracle being raised in each other's worlds. A quadriplegic whose only time out and about is when he's serving as the New God answer to the Grim Reaper. The idea of a supervillain propagandist whose very superpower is his use of rhetoric. The closest that Stan came to writing something with such substance is when he came up with a knock-off combination of better written works "Doom Patrol" and "Children of the Atom".

@@kencoleman5007 ye and Jack Kirby always said he liked dc. I mean his wife was an inker. And funnily enough Jack Kirby was planning to go to dc two years before he actually left. Because they gave him more creative freedom there

@@sladewilson377 I agree, and despite some not agreeing with Ditko's libertarianism, he too was granted more creative freedom figuratively across the street. When given the chance, both proved to be better writers than Stan.

@@kencoleman5007 Remember before Jack Kirby, Stan Lee was doing SNAFU? The Fourth World Lasted Longer than SNAFU lol

One about the inkers would be great. I've been enamored of inkers ever since Tom Palmer worked his wonderment on Gene Colan, John Buscema and Neal Adams. To see a focus on Terry Austin, Joe Sinnott, Joe Rubinstein, Klaus Janson and the aforementioned Tom Palmer would be a dream.

CAM8689 they should make a Mr Miracle movie

Without Him Marvel wouldn't exist

I'd Liked His Name "Scott Free"

Kirby's Kamandi was so entertaining, I remember waiting with panting breath for the next issue ! ( The way DC treated it after Jack left was criminal )

Kids who grew up with the MCU and think Stan Lee created the characters. Lol !

Interesting comparison...

So, it essentially is the first big manga ever

Have you ever heard of graphic novels ? are you dumb ?

@@weirddude9367 Most graphic novels are not drawn/written by a singular author. Whereas Mangas are

Actually no Jack Kirby said he always liked DC. I mean his wife literally worked there. And he became friends with one of the editors. He got along well with them at DC.

WRONG ! Stan Lee did not create Spider-Woman Spider-Woman was created by Archie Goodwin and Marie Severin

Ok , he created none , even worse

@@flappospammo She Hulk was created by Stan Lee and John Buscema. The reason behind the character's creation had to do with the success of The Incredible Hulk and The Bionic Woman television series. Marvel was afraid that the show's executives might suddenly introduce a female version of the Hulk. So Marvel decided to publish their own version of such a character to make sure that if a similar one showed up in the television series, Marvel would own the rights.

As a matter of fact Jim Starlin took inspiration in another Kirby character called Metron to create Thanos.

🧢

@@toyhunter2903 but he also admitted that he ripped off Darkseid

Spiderman?

@@antoniogrady5954 The Tarantula.

no, it's not. Even Mark Evanier, who is THE authority on Kirby and worked with him during those days, says no one has ever really been able to explain how/why the Fourth World name came about.

@@pulsarstargrave256 You should re-read my comment. that's not what I said. What I said was the guy who is considered the foremost expert on Kirby has stated in his Kirby biography that no one really can explain how the Fourth World name came to be.

I did read it, so what's the problem? i said nothing about Kirby came up with it or who came up with it, I explained WHY they might have come up with it. Kirby's new "world" was made up of FOUR INTERCONNECTED books not 3, you're the one who said "no' which seemed off base to me. i think some comic fans like to argue when none is needed. Kinda reminds me of some Marvel comics from the 70s when a fight scene took place just to shoehorn one in!

Because it is well documented and guessing he was following not leading

Conventions! Duh!

Well new God's is kind of a complicated property and not for everybody.

@@youngboss2071 Agreed. There is no middle ground over the Fourth World even among comic book fans themselves. Plus Ava has already shown that she has a knack for portraying otherworldly stories and characters in a way that is palatable for mainstream audiences. I am willing to give her a chance.

johnny who else thinks they should make a Jack Kirby movie on his life