I remember as a kid finally getting a copy of “How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way” and having my tiny mind blown at how amazing the pencils looked compared to final Marvel books.

What I got from this: - Vince Colletta was a nice, charming guy who got along with all his coworkers and no one who knew him personally had a bad word to say about him. - Vince Colletta always met his deadlines. - Vince Colletta was the only guy you could turn to and rely on to get your work to print when the penciller turned the pages in on Friday and you needed it done by Monday. - Vince Colletta took the business side of comics seriously. -Vince Colletta’s speed helped keep the lights on, kept a lot of series from losing money and being canceled, and helped to keep those artists employed. - Vince Colletta stuck up for his friends even if it cost him his job. - Vince Colletta was NOT a great inker. The bastard! _________________ Edit: Having seen the responses to this comment (both agreeing and respectfully disagreeing), I’ll end with this final thought. Isn’t it ironic that Colletta was the only one to stand up for Jim Shooter? Jim Shooter is the complete opposite of Colletta. Shooter is respected and despised for the inverse reasons; he is respected for elevating the art and despised for his strong, strict personality that rubbed people the wrong way and for his intolerance toward flaky artists. Maybe Colletta saw his own failings and respected Shooter for possessing all those qualities he lacked. In any case, none of those people who criticized Colletta (again, they had good reasons to) quit in protest over seeing Shooter - who embodied the attitude toward comices they wish Colletta had - fired. Because Colletta recognized what was good for comics. And because Colletta stuck by his friends when no one else would.

He didn't fire him because he didn't want to take away another man's income. Oh my god, the level of honor in this man 🥺

He meeting his deadlines probably kept a lot of important issues from being cancelled

Coletta’s rage quit letter should be analyzed in high school AP English classes. Glorious

Jim Shooter is a fascinating story. He got a job for DC comics at at age 14. He was writing stories and submitting them to DC at age 13 and before they hired him they thought he was an adult.

He wasn't even bad, just not amazing. If this work is him rushing and cutting corners then he still had talent.

That letter to the Marvel editors was epic. Kudos to Coletta for sticking up for his friend, even if it unfortunatley cost him his career.

It sounds like this guy was a product of the industry, and not really bad by himself.

Too bad he didn't become a writer instead. That letter was epic!

Honestly, he doesn't really seem like a bad guy, nor that much a bad artist. He was just always given last-minute assignments that he had no choice but to rush through since he knew how to simplify them down to what was needed. Things like simplifying backgrounds or removing a figure or whatnot are industry standard when considering both how much time you got and what tools you're working with. You can't make a magnum opus every single month and there are limitations to be made when on a quota like that. Better inkers are out there, sure, but I don't really see him as "ruining" it, he seems to simply reflect the industry and expectations at the time

As a fairly mediocre artist who has gotten a lot of work because I'm quick, I sure hope nobody ever makes a video critiquing the stuff I've drawn when rushing to a tight deadline.

By the early 80s, George Perez famously refused to let Colletta touch his work. He went on record, calling Vinnie a "great equalizer". He lifts or brings down every artist to his level, no matter the penciller, it all ended up looking like Colletta.

Seems Colleta missed his vocation. Should've been a writer, not an artist.

"Vince, we're runnin late!" Vince: "COWABUNGA IT IS"

"Generic" is the best word I can think of to describe Colletta's work. Even as a kid in the 1970s I could tell his ink work from others, no matter who the penciller was. It had this bland sameness to it. It wasn't bad, it wasn't great, but it got the job done. Now, showing Kirby's New Gods art to people at Marvel .... no matter how well liked, I'm surprised he worked at DC much after that.

Love that scathing letter Colletta wrote. Maybe he missed his calling. He was a writer in an inker's body.

"Colleta had loyalty." Hey Marvel, want to see Jack Kirby's art?!

He sounds like a very principled man with a strong work ethic. Let’s not forget how appalling Marvel used to be with missing deadlines in the 70s and early 80s.

"Colletta didn't care about art, just about being fast" "Kirby did lots of comics monthly and was just concerned with getting on to the next issue" ?

neil gaiman was right: - a good attitude - hits deadlines - excellent output and you only need at least 2.

In Vince’s defense, printing technology at the time wasn’t that advanced either and they were printing on the cheapest paper they could. The more simple the inking, the better it would reproduce. Same reason they had to change the hulk from grey to green: because they couldn’t print grey reliably.

Colletta had balls to write such a letter. It was too much and too graphic but at the same time you don't see people defending others like that too often. Very italian of him. And that's also a reminder of how "old school" business was much more human and had values, vs 1985 and even worse today.

At first I hated Coletta's inks and for the most part still do however occasionally I'll see a piece he'd inked and be pleasantly surprised. After watching this I think that when he was working within his limitations he was quite capable. He was a commercial artist, as one myself I can tell you sometimes it is just about the paycheck and in the comics industry it really does seem to be about attrition. I don't blame him for stacking cash and getting the jobs done quickly but because of this I prefer practically every other Kirby inker over him.

"Jesus had one Judas, Jim had many!" that is amazing hyperbole! Where can I find the full letter?

I suspect that because he was fast he was given a lot of short deadline work. By using 'cheats' to always meet the deadlines the overall look of the work clearly suffered, but the books were on the stands on time, which made the editors happy. In the end comics are a business, late books, let alone year late books were not a thing in the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's (I'm looking at you Doomsday Clock, wipe that smirk off your face Planetary)

Ok, everyone who hates this guy: there's the triangle of art. The vertices are Cheap, Quick, and Well-made. You can only choose two. Coletta was consistently asked Cheap and Quick, and a lot of times too. You can thank me later for cracking the code.

I actually really appreciate the stories of artists who are just below the line of amazing. I'm never going to be the best cartoonist, but I love drawing and animating...and it's people who stick with it that give me some form of inspiration.

Lesson here is he was a decent inker, but knew his limitations which is why he preferred romance comics. Too bad he couldn't have found non superhero titles to work on that weren't so demanding with all the detail.

When you consider how badly almost all of the artists and writers were treated by the industry and you look at how well Colletta provided for his family, he was right: comics at the time were commerce, not art. We rightly revere Kirby and his brethren, but they did not get a seat at the table when money was apportioned. Vince had a grand house and provided well for his wife and family. I certainly agree that he hurt Kirby's art, but my dislike of his work is lessened by my hatred for comics publishers. It was a sleazy business and I'm not sure how much better it is now.

Vince wasn't amazing at his job. But he was pretty good. Met his deadlines, friendly, and loyal. Art wise he's the same, not amazing, but pretty good

Personally, I always liked Colletta's inking of Kirby's art for Thor. For me, it gave Thor comics that classic old-world look, that reminded me of Prince Valiant. Totally agree, that Sinnott was the obvious choice to ink the Fantastic Four. Although less polished than Sinnott, I also enjoyed Chic Stone's inking of Kirby's art for the FF, X-Men and Captain America in the early years of Marvel.

"We need to get rid of him." "But he's such a nice guy..."

I dunno what you're talking about, that letter is amazing. Maybe they should've had Vince on writing duties instead of inking.

As a kid, I remember wondering why Jack's Thor artwork looked like pencil sketches next to his bold Fantastic Four work. I didn't understand the role and importance of an inker like a Joe Sinnott until many years later.

Thank you *James and Maso* for recommending this channel which I'm sure I'll be spending a good bit of time with!

Not sure who said it, but being asked who are his favourite inkers are an artist claimed Vince to be his second favourite inker. Being asked who his number one would be he said all others. :)

Regarding the Vince Colletta letter. The major artists at Marvel wouldn't let Colletta near their art any more but Jim Shooter insisted that the editors give him work, so Colletta was regularly assigned to ink the new artists who'd begun working at Marvel, like Bret Blevins. Bret hated Colletta's inking so much that he had to prove to Marvel that he could ink his own work much better than Colletta could before they'd let him do it. But Shooter still insisted that they give Colletta work. But when Shooter was fired the editors stopped returning Colletta's phone calls and his work at Marvel suddenly dried up. That's when he wrote the letter which the editors found hilarious and they shared it with everyone.

10:24 - I actually find Coletta's Galactus much better at representing an intergalactic demi-god.

When people ask me what made me choose to be an inker, my answer always includes the fact that I realized that the inker made the difference. In the same month, Gil Kane's work was beautiful, lush, & exciting with Klaus Jansen inks, and (in another book) mushy, sloppy & ugly with Vince Colletta inks. Comic art pencil pages are some of the most beautiful things in the world, & I was determined to keep whatever was possible of that beauty, & sometimes even improve it, if I could. Vince was one kind of inspiration. Klaus (among others) was another. 😊

10:35 The thing about Vince Colletta's characters, they've got lifeless eyes, black eyes, like a doll's eyes. When it comes at you it doesn't seem to be livin'... until he bites you, and those black eyes roll over white.

Say what you will about Colette, but his art sucked. That being said, he got the deadlines. That's such an incredibly important factor and people love to just gloss over it because 'it ruined the art'. Obviously it did, but not without good reason. Getting that deadline isn't like missing an assignment in school where you get told off and a bad grade. It means money, hours and effort spent without getting any returns. Coletta made sure that didn't happen, which wasn't just good for his paycheck, it was good for everyone. Including the consumers. Coletta was a product of a business model, who still tried his hardest. The fact he was willing to commit career-suicide by that letter shows he must've been a loyal man with serious principles. I personally think that's a thousand times more important than the art.

Very comprehensive! I’ve got to say, you’ve presented things in such a passionate yet partial manner, that I feel with great confidence that I’ve learned way more about Collette than any other article/video I’ve previously researched ever did justice.

Your channel came up randomly on autoplay such good in-depth discussion on these artists. Nice video

I love hearing about the creation of comics. The writer and penciler always gets the credit but the inkers, colorist, Letterer and editor don’t get much credit. Honestly I think that a major problem with comics today is that there aren’t any good editors preventing the errors, lack of continuity, stupid writing and bad art being published.

Honestly I think your overplaying the simple fact that someone has to make the deadlines. If Jack Kirby's work is running late then someone has to keep it on schedule or there is no book. So I'm not going to judge him too harshly for being the fall guy for the good of getting work out in time

The details of how Colleta worked are fascinating to know. Deadlines are definitely still important today

Not such a great inker, but the Greatest Letter Writer in comic book History! RESPECT!!!

That was very interesting, I had no idea Colletta's inks actually looked good, on his own early artwork. I was a big Warlord/Mike Grell fan during the run of that book, and Colletta's inks on that used to really make me angry as a youngster, everything became so brittle and thin, no depth to anything. This was a real flash-back dude, thanks!

I wondered why some of Jack Kirby's work looked half assed when it came to the backgrounds.

I'm always happy to see that a comic tropes's video gets so many views!

As someone who has done art for pleasure and for profit, deadlines=lower quality work. But this guy met his deadlines. End of story. I will defend that. And hell, its not even ruined in my opinion. Could be it be better? Yes. But is it shit? No. I have this annual gig where I get commissioned by a business to be their primary artist and creative director for a onsite artistic project. The first year I was given almost unlimited time, resources, and manpower. The team put together a fabulously planned mural, intricately detailed, fully coloured, with a write up for display about the piece & the meaning behind each choice. I had about 150 hours logged on this thing. Its probably the best painting I have ever done. The next year I was given 2 weeks besides my day job, had to provide my own materials, and had to wait a week to have the painting space set up (despite my insistence I could set it up, but no, “that would unsafe little lady!”) I cut so many corners to get it done. Dropped the colour palette, used a stencil rather than freehanding, if I made a mistake oops its there, and had to leave a lot of the space blank for a “minimalist” look. It looked good, but with only me? It was hard. This last year I got a full time day job. It was made non-negotiable between the business and my manager. I was not asked, rather TOLD, I would do the painting this year. So I was told to do the painting and my job in the same time, again minimal notice of the deadline.... so 40 hours a week to do a 40 hour, and 30-120 hour job? No OT? And my manager coming by to crack the whip as I try to paint??? I smashed a paintbrush into a bunch of acrylics, slapped it on, left a bunch of pencil lines, and left off the varnish to preserve it for years to come. If they try to force me again this year they can fuck right off. With Coletta he got paid for every ink job, but I didn’t get extra anything this last year. They want a set of comic pages within a weekend? They are gonna get a slapdash job. The guy can ink well! Just like I can paint well! But we all sacrifice quality to meet the deadline- bc capitalism does not appreciate art, it sells it.

Best inker in the business was Joe Sinnott, who made the art look like HD. Vince I always found his inking rough. I used to groan when I saw *"Inks by Vince Colletta."*

That shirt is straight out of Charlie Sheen's closet from 2003 Two and a Half Men era.

Binging your videos today. I like your tone - it's the friendly, relaxed, and educated kind of enjoyable I appreciate.

This was an excellent episode - definitely got me to like and subscribe! Very fair - shocked to learn that Colletta actually ERASED Kirby pencils - but loved the letter at the end. This episode also made me respect Jack Kirby even more (which I didn't think was possible). Excellent work! Now looking forward to watching other episodes!

I could always hit my deadlines too if I just blacked out all detail and straight up erased people entirely.

I actually always liked Vince Colletta's inking with Jack Kirby, particularly with Tales of Asgard. I loved his fine lines, which lent a lighter touch to the art.

He seems to be the un-sung hero of inking. I love creatives and art and creating things that push the boundaries. But it sounds like he was the guy who could scale things back enough to reasonably get those grand ideas onto shelves on time. Well by today’s standards it certainly is disheartening to see how much detail was removed, but I am sure the editors and chiefs always appreciated the fact that he would keep it more simplified and much easier to print.

So here's what I understand: Vince Coletta was a charming, nice guy who got his art done quick and cheap when deadlines were only a few days away, understood the business of comics, and stood up for his friends, even when it cost him his job. And he also kinda screwed up some art. What a fool!

The part that fascinates me is how Kirby not only kept working with him but also started to play to Colletta's strengths, even to explore new ways of doing background in a way that would benefit his inking. What an amazing guy.

When I was a boy in the '60s, I loved Colletta's work on Thor. That book (especially the scenes set in Asgard) seemed to demand a style reminiscent of 19th century illustration. Colletta was the only person in comics who routinely used dip pens with crowquill nibs -- the preferred approach of those illustrators of yore, most of whom would never have considered inking with a brush. I loved the scritchy-scratchy crowquill lines Colletta used to model Kirby's figures. I suspect that Kirby liked the look as well, hence his loyalty to Colletta after the move to DC. The allegation that Kirby NEVER saw the finished product simply is not believable. Moreover, I don't buy the suggestion that inking with a brush is more time-consuming than inking with a dip pen. Having tried my hand at both, I think the pen-and-ink approach takes a bit longer. Nib pens are more terrifying because you're more likely to get an unwanted SPLOTCH on your page. That said: Over other artists' pages, Colletta's dip-pen approach did not work. His work became downright irritating in the 1970s. The pen works best when you use it to indicate light and shadow through careful, tedious hatching, and Colletta stopped doing anything of that sort. Maybe you just can't do that kind of inking in comics. When the majority of lines are contour lines, the dip pen can seem mechanical and lacking in character, while the brush offers greater liveliness and suppleness. At any rate, as I grew older, I sided with those who greatly prefer to see Kirby inked with a brush. I'd like to see a video on Alfredo Alcala. He was the closest thing to Franklin Booth that comics ever produced -- yet, unlike Booth, Alcala did NOT use pen and ink, as I once presumed he did. He created his own fountain pen with a brush head. (He worked fast and didn't like to pause to dip his brush.) Nowadays, you can buy brush pens of that sort -- the Japanese make 'em -- but I've never been able to get the consistent fine lines that Alcala got. I'd love to know how he made those tools!

Personally, my favorite regular Kirby inker was Mike Royer. In my early days of reading comics I enjoyed Kirby's Thor work, which was being inked by Colleta. It was not until I saw Kirby's pencils that I realized that a lot of Kirby's detailed pencils were being simplified. One thing to remember is that comics were not considered "art" or collectable at one time. I cringe when hear about warehouses of art being destroyed by Marvel, etc because it was taking up room. Yet that was the reality that Colleta worked in.... it was a business, not an art studio.

Vince Colletta is me with my high school projects.

The one I remember bothering me in the 70's was that Colletta was often paired with George Tuska . As a kid I thought I didn't like Tuska until I realized it was Colletta. Kinda ruined bronze age Ironman for me

Damn that was interesting. The strangest part of all for me was Colletta own artwork was so accomplished, its strange that he abandoned it so early without so much as a backward glance.

Omg. Totally worth waiting til the end. So wild!! Cool history video!!

The way he colored said, this is my job and I'm going to get it done quickly. Artists wanted his colors to say, I respect the detail and time you put into this. I hope the colors enhance the artwork and make this world a vibrant feast for the readers eyes to enjoy.

Oh hi, you just caught me getting ready for work. Speaking of hard work, a new episode of comic tropes just been uploaded.

I collected British marvel reprints in the seventies. Every time I saw the name Vince Coletta a deep sigh crawled out. Without the colour some of his work is woeful.

This is fascinating. Great research and analysis!

I am not horribly into comics anymore. I find myself just catching up on old comics I wanted to read, but wasn't old enough to buy when I was younger. But I digress. I just wanted to thank you for this channel. Even a cursory look at comics on KZfaq shows some sort of crazy contest on who can be the next Dave Sim. I appreciate your focus on the history of comics, and when offering critiques, you are eminently fair. So, thank you sir! I enjoy the positivity. :)

Gotta be honest, this episode made me realize how good of an artist Jack Kirby was. I mean, if those originals were the main pages of the comic, he'd be one of my favourite comic-book artists of all time. And also how inkers can ruin or improve others work, which I've never questioned myself. Guess the writer and the penciler aren't the only ones that make a comic-book good or bad.

As a young reader in th 70's I quickly learned the names of all of Marvel's creators thanks to the splash page credits. I also learned who's work I liked and didn't like. I never liked Coletta's work for the reasons you mentioned, especially when compared to other inkers like Sinnott.

This was a really fascinating and fun video!

So glad I stumbled upon this video and your channel. Very well researched; entertainingly presented with heart; a fascinating, eye-opening, educational story. Well worth watching to the end. I think I'm hooked :)

Looking forward to Jim Shooter's episode. I should note that while Vince's letter was certainly rude and disrespectful, the objective facts tend to support his view. As for Vince Colletta himself, we should probably keep in mind that he was doing a job and fulfilled its demands honestly enough. His was a time when people just did not expect any better than that.

He definitely had his ups and downs, his work on Thor, while yes he did tamper with Kirby’s work, it had a simplicity to it that really fit the style of the book. I was always a huge fan of that initial Thor run and its art. His work on Wonder Woman and elsewhere at DC was fantastic as well. But Fantastic Four and New Gods almost got ruined by his shortcuts. Does he compare to Sinnott? No, but along the same lines that’s like comparing Greg Capullo to Jim Lee, one is an icon and a master, but the other isn’t without merit. I equal parts respect Coletta and dislike him. Comics were a cutthroat industry back then and meeting his deadlines like he did was an invaluable tool, even if he did take many liberties that earned the ire of his contemporaries.

New to your channel, great video! I've subscribed and look forward to trawling the longboxes of your videos.

I'm glad this video is getting so many views! You're one of the best channels on youtube

The first Kirby art I read was the exact episodes of Thor you showed in the intro. I hated it so much I avoided Kirby stuff for a very long time. Didn't understand how great his work was until much later when I started collecting older books. There are some amazing inkers. But they definitely can destroy things. Sienkewicz was hit by this a number of times, too.

*His art may have been weak,* but his writing was dynamic! That letter...💀

Chris really enjoying your content!

Please, please, please, MORE Harry Partridge!

I wouldn't care if he "ruined" the art by just simplifying it, but it's an entirely different matter when you start erasing work

This just makes me respect Jack Kirby that much more. Didn't know that was possible. "Hey, did you know this guy's been sabotaging your work for a decade?" "Eh, keep him on." "He's literally bringing your work to the competition, which you left." "Eh, keep him on one book."

I'm so glad you got a boost! You're one of my YT role models. ;D Also, whoa, I had no idea Jim Shooter actually looked like an old school comic book character until you showed us that picture. ;p

I really appreciate that you gave a fully nuanced explanation of the guy’s work instead of just trying to sensationalize it to make it easier to swallow. Great video!

Imagine if colletta inked something like berserk.

A new awesome episode, I'm learning so much with you and you have this superpower of making me open a comic book after every episode you download. Thanks a lot!

Seems like a great guy. Sure, you didn't want him inking your work, but that's because he specialized in making your late work still hit the shelves on time. That's a great weapon for an editor to have when comic book artists get a little too artsy.

I enjoy your work, it lightens my day and makes me smile.

Any tradesman knows every tool has its job. Not everything takes a hammer.

So far as his art goes, Colletta should've gotten betta.

I work in an ad agency and I can easily relate to Vince. Might not be the best inker, but was surely an important piece of the machine.

The greatest thing about this video is the detail. In my opinion. Great video keep it up!

I remember going to Boston Comic Con and seeing a panel of some old school guys. They ripped into Vince throughout. I remember Sinnott was there.

I love his inks on the romance comics you showed. Iconic. On superhero comic, not so much - but I think he was a good choice for a romantic wedding issue.

This channel is phenomenal.

This video felt very fair to the man and I appreciate that! With an agenda, you could make the guy seem any way you want I feel (and it’d be exciting to view probably), so it’s nice to have a more down to Earth look. A proper level of respect to someones work even if the quality isn’t where people wish it was