I just want to say I'm fully aware this may be controversial because of the topic. All that I can say is I've done my best to be fair and the last thing I'd want to do would be to misrepresent Shaun in anyway, or to let my own personal biases get the better of me. All I can say is I've tried my absolute best to be fair and honest. Also Shaun if you end up seeing this, I love what you do man, and even when I don't agree with you I always find your perspective valuable.

I think plot holes matter to a degree. If there are enough plot holes or the plot holes are really obvious, they will take you out of the suspension of the disbelief required for a movie. That's a serious problem. But if the plot holes are minor and generally unnoticeable, then it's ok becuase they never ruined the immersion.

I wanted Snoke to be two lesbians in an overcoat, and I'm sure everyone else did too. What are you talking about?

Luke going to Degobah was not pointless. It was actually quite important to the story as his character arch. Not to mention we're also introduced to Yoda and the Jedi teachings

"X Flaw was in the original series" Meaning they didn't learn from the mistakes in the original series. Which is a bad thing

"Admiral Thanos Hair" -Jay Jay Binks, 2019

"Ahhhhhhhhhghgh...!" - A perfect summary of the quality of debate over The Last Jedi.

I'm not gonna lie, when I first saw Episode 8, I thought Admiral Thanos Hair was supposed to be a bad guy working as a spy for the First Order or something, I told myself: "Okay, she's making all these stupid decisions because it turns out she's actually working against t- and she just kamikaze'd herself.. so wait she was just an idiot?"

That first scene with Poe giving Hux lip, I was low-key expecting Poe to say “Bingo Bongo” before flying off. TLJ copied the wrong parts of Steven Universe.

Wait, hold on, if you don't discuss your feelings about the movie how will people know whether or not they should hate you? Your overall personality and the quality of content you produce? That's nowhere near as good a way to determine things as whether or not someone likes a thing!

There're two key difference between the failure of Finn and Rose in TLJ and the failure of Han and the gang in Empire. 1. In Empire, there's a big difference between failing and not going at all. Being betrayed and captured in Cloud City is a much different outcome from being captured at Hoth, and would mean different things for the plot moving forward. Finn and Rose failing their mission mean very little when the same thing would've happened if they didn't go at all. They'd still end up on Krayt fighting for the Resistance. 2. The consequences of failure are much more dire in Empire than in TLJ. Failing in Empire moved the plot forward. Failing in TLJ made little to no difference since Holdo had no intention of hyperjumping away even if the tracker was disabled, and Poe's mutiny failed regardless.

Also, on the Snoke issue: It's public knowledge by this point that when Rian Johnson was given the reins there was nothing planned past Force Awakens. So Snoke's actual backstory was... nothing. It's the classic JJ "Mystery box". Provide a question, but no answer. To JJ, the answer doesn't matter. It's the key reason why so many of his stories fizzle out instead of provide a satisfying payoff. So for Rian to go, "that's dumb" and lay bare that the literally unanswered questions from JJ's movie have no real payoff, and really don't need them; "Rey's parents don't matter, they don't define her character," and "Who cares about Snoke, Kylo is more interesting as the main villain anyway," is a reasonable stance to take given that situation.

Two lesbians in an overcoat is my new favorite way of describing garnet

Wait, you're telling me people are allowed to have opinions, but that their reasoning for said opinions can be flawed and criticized, and if that happens, it isn't a personal attack? I've heard a lot of bullshit in my day but THAT isn't, it's a valid and reasonable point that 50% of the internet should accept.

The snoke overcoat joke got me way harder than i'm willing to admit.

The only defense I can mount for the RotJ Han plan is that Luke did, in the words of Thrawn “...chose to be a Jedi, rather than doing what was tactically sound.” He had to try diplomacy first, and only use the various levels of violence as they were required. But whatever, this is a great video.

Actually Luke's plan to rescue Han was many-layered and full of contingencies; it didn't go _exactly_ as planned ("Exactly as planned" would have been "Give Jabba enough money that he gives up Han without a fight", everything else was when that failed). What you see is several layers of his plan failing one after another, then his last resort version worked. - Having Lando and Leia get in separately was so that whoever could get alone with Han first could break him out, and sending them together would arouse suspicion. - Having R2-D2 smuggle his lightsaber in was so that if they checked him for weapons beyond a basic blaster they wouldn't find it, and if they confiscated his blaster he could have R2 give him his lightsaber afterward. - Luke could not, in fact, have just stormed the front door with no problem. In the OT, unlike the prequels and sequels, Jedi were just knights with a couple magic powers like good reflexes, telekinesis, and the ability to sense people. They weren't demigods. Further, storming the front door would give Jabba a chance to just destroy the frozen Han to spite his would-be rescuers.

I always thought that Luke was Plan B in Han's rescue. Get Leia inside, she frees Han, Lando walks them out the front door. Chewie is muscle, since someone needs to carry Han. That plan went to shit, so Luke was Plan B, and he didn't bring his lightsaber with him, cause he wasn't gonna slaughter a room of 200 people.

“And thats the Shaun that point is making.” (5:55)

To say plotholes don't matter is to say that writers that carefully produce a plot, with as much calculative thoughtful effort as possible, are equal to writers that don't even try.

Saying child Anakin was overpowered too is admitting Rey is bad. Consensus is he was at least the second worst part of the prequel trilogy.

8:24 I thought it was very obvious that Luke was showing MERCY to Jabba. He kept saying the entire time that if Jabba released his friends, all would be forgiven, and he'd have to kill Jabba if not. Even when thrown into the rancor pit, he stuck to that. So for the case that Jabba isn't redeemable, he hid the lightsaber in R2 as a failsafe, thinking they'd never check. I don't get this criticism.

JJ Abrams having a plan for any of the loose ends from Force Awakens is highly unlikely given his approach to ‘mystery boxes’

To be fair... Two lesbians in an overcoat would be more believable than Mace Windu.

Honestly, if Snoke was two lesbians in an overcoat I would of instantly given TLJ a 10/10

Thanos hair? Heheheheheeeeeeheee

Now *this* is podracing!

Lando and Chewbacca never came back because they were hatching a plan to get Han out, Lando became part of Jabbas crew, Leia took on the disguise of Boushh, Chewie pretended to be her prisoner. Luke hid the Lightsaber inside R2 so that when he inevitably got captured and cuffed, and everyone got put together, his Lightsaber wouldn't be taken off of him and put away where he has no idea where it is. If it's in R2 then he can get it whenever he gives the signal. And NO ONE included C-3P0 in on the plot because they didn't want him blabbing. The less he knows, the more he can sell their "capture".

"But why can Anakin do it?" Because it's canon that he's Space Jesus. "Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life."

Hello there

thanks for going out of your comfort zone for this one, I know being intellectually critical of your peers can be scary. you handled it dashingly and created a good power check for online critics not to attack their identities, but to maintain a sound intellectual structure. I respect the hell out of you sir.

I feel like some of the arguments saying "the OT did it as well" kind of feel like they had false equivalence, because in Empire, Vader is actively focused on capturing Han, Leia, Chewie and the Droids in order to lure Luke into a trap, so our heroes trying to evade them only to get captured in Bespin thanks to Bobba Fett tracking them down feels like it was a possible scenario; the Canto Bight bit feels like they only failed because of bad setups subverting our expectations like how parking in a beach gets you arrested when just as you find your objective, getting caught by New Order Troops because a Droid suspected a trash bin of being a spy, and the Code Breaker betraying you and jeopardizing your plan because you decided to have an open comm link with the guy with the questionable sense of loyalty in the same room when you were suppossed to get one that was more trustworthy, and that's without considering that the New Order could have scanned the location of the "cloaked" ships if they thought the Radus might have deployed escape pods. Empire's failure is more simple and logical that it happened; Last Jedi's has a complex setup and different payoffs happening at the same time that it makes you wonder why did people even do certain things in the first place if the simplest solution was to clear up a misunderstanding and have Poe completely avoid having to send Finn and Rose to Canto Bight in the first place. As for Return's issue, I think with 3PO is that maybe he would have blown their cover, since the dude's a chatterbox, Luke wanted to solve things without getting violent unless forced to, and why the heck is Chewie with Bosh Leia when it was established that Lando and Chewie were the ones together is probably the one that has me stumped...makes no sense to have Lando not be the one to free Han if he was inside. (Also, the plan over Endor could have been jeopardized either because Luke was inside of the Imperial Transport, or he might as well saved it for a bit because the codes used by the ship were old and Vader became suspicious, but sensing Luke, he let them pass, and that's not counting that Luke and 3PO got the Ewoks on their side, which apparently stayed hidden from Imperial scans unless they found them to be no threat at all at the time of setting up a base. Like Return may have plotholes, but excuses in universe exist as to why they happened, and they aren't exactly overly complex; everything else in TLJ ends up falling apart when you look back at what came before and think of it with the new information at hand, like why would Holdo risk not teling Poe the plan when a lot of people trust him and he turns around once he knows what the plan is? Or how Poe screwed up in the Dreadnaught assault when later it's revealed that the New Order tracked them down through Hyperspace, and leaving it alive would have been a bigger detriment to the Radus.) Sorry for the long text; just felt like the main issue here was how one group of plotholes don't exactly match up with another. I think you did well breaking this down.

Your thanos hair joke offends me

Good example with the Steven Universe comparison

As someone who has worked in retail and dealt with awful, uncommunicative, condescending managers countless times, I find the defenses for Holdo to frankly be ghastly. She never does anything to actually work with someone under her leadership who is clearly upset, gives him the impression that she has no idea what she's doing and that everything is going to shit, and then basically relegates him to time out. At that point it was a foregone conclusion that Poe would act out and make her plan a massive pain in the ass to actually enact. Then, after his attempted mutiny nearly ruined everything, what does she say about the situation to Leia? "Haha, silly boys!". I completely checked out mentally by that point, because it was obvious that the narrative itself wasn't going to take itself seriously for a second and have characters actually treat anything seriously themselves. I had a manager that was similarly prideful, who nearly cratered our productivity thinking I had no idea what I was talking about, refuse to believe me when I noticed a serious problem with the machine we work with every day. Had I just shut up and blindly followed her orders, instead of get into a shouting match with her to get her attention, we undoubtedly would have had four hours of overtime that night; this was a trend with her. Seeing so many leftists blindly leap to the defense of an ignorant, prideful, arrogant, fumbling leader deeply unsettled me. She is a textbook example of a dogshit manager who has no business being in her position, and would have a union all over her bullshit if she were a real person.

I would like to point out that the problem with the whole sidemission isn't that it was a failure. The problem is that it was completely pointless. The only two things it accomplished was getting Captain Phasma killed and keeping Finn and Rose out of the story on the ship for Poe's mutiny to occur, both of which could have easily been accomplished without that whole sideplot.

Honestly I really liked The Last Jedi but I never try to “defend” it. If people don’t like it then I won’t be able to change their minds, but I am able to express why I do enjoy it myself.

"Ill try spinning that's a good trick." As for the rotj thing it is a plot contrivance (since this is never stated in the film even if it is implied) The point of luke's plan was to try to avoid violence at every stage while moving people so that if violence became necessary they would be perfectly placed in the final stage. Step 1, lando infiltration, though not in a position to free han (as a security guard he would have expected places to be) but he still can get info out. This isn't explained in the film so it is a weakness. The droids, he was attempting to improve his bargaining position with a "gift" and he was also smuggling in two more agents (one with his lightsaber if needed) 3. Leia and chewie. Chewie gets smuggled in and leia gets a crack at freeing han, this is a poor choice since it's only jabba's perversion that keeps leia alive, its possible due to lando he knew about jabba's inclinations but its still a weakness in the plan (and writing). 4. Arives himself, attempts to negotiate, fails, gets captured... except like 1/3 of the people around jabba are with luke, so if jabba had decided something other than execution by sarlacc lando could have freed him and artoo delivered his lightsaber to him, ironically this is the part that makes the most sense, by the time luke had arrived he had so many operatives around jabba that it was only his mercy that stopped him from just charging in and killing him.

The Steven Universe example is pretty great for illustrating how it's possible to establish mysteries that are revealed later. In the other hand I think the video finishes too quickly.

The side quest had purpose, if you didn't notice, if finn and rose didn't go to the casino then the hacker that betrayed them wouldn't have happen and they would have succeeded in getting into the salt planet... so it was even worse.

"And that's the Shaun that point is making here" being left in is fantastic. I love you for that.

As to the Luke's lightsaber "plothole" in RotJ... He had no way of knowing that he could 100% get into the palace without being searched and having any weapons confiscated.

I love how sane and and quiet when talking about these movies And that's how everyone should be not radically angry or defendant

An overpowered character isn't necessarily an uncompelling character, though.

I think the other issue with why snoke's backstory wasn't explained in a satisfying manner is because the whole first order wasn't explained in a satisfying manner and its because of the OT. In the original trilogy the story starts in medias res with an empire and a rebellion. This state of things is very easy to infer from the audience why things are a happening. A long established authoritarian empire is undergoing a rebellion. As a result, we as the audience can infer that the emperor himself is A. a figure that holds enormous power over this empire and B. that he must be a powerful force user because Vader is his personal right hand man. These elements provide enough backstory for the emperor because we didn't really need to know more then that. We as the audience could assume that the emperor of a galactic empire in a universe with force powers would naturally be a powerful force user. The issue comes when we have Snoke who is given the exact same treatment but because the first order hasn't been well established (are they remnants of the empire? a revival copycat movement? what do they actually control? why do they need their own underground rebel group to fight them if the first order is already a fringe faction? What happened between the OT and the Disney films?) that makes Snoke's powers and position of authority need more of an explanation then the emperor. In addition there are questions that needed answered as a result of the emperors presence in the OT. (Who trained Snoke? was it palatine? when did palatine have time to train an additional apprentice to Vader? Was it after he supposedly died? Why does the first order follow him? Was it because of a connection to palpatine or is Snoke his own cult of personality that was taking advantage of the first order?) These questions got answered in the third film but only after the character had been literally and metaphorically assassinated. He's a force using clone that Palpatine(?) made as a puppet so he could run the first order in the shadows. By then the character was useless to the story and so the backstory just kinda seemed flat and we still had so many unanswered questions about both Palpatine and the first order that the explanation still didn't make sense overall.

is it just me or is saying the "the originals had the same problems" argument point out that if true that the last jedi and the force awakens have writing flaws from the 70s-80s? and thus learned nothing from the originals(or even the prequels for that matter).

I just stick by "I thought it was okay" because that's it. Don't feel the need to defend it since I can understand alot of the criticism.

The thing with Luke's seemingly strange plan in Return of the Jedi is that once it's done, it's done. They don't spend the rest of the movie talking about it ad nauseum. Consider Empire Strikes Back. The tactics used by both sides in the opening battle were..… not very well thought out. It was just what looked cool. But when that battle was done, it was done. Leia didn't spend the rest of the movie getting lectured about how bad she was for disagreeing with Luke's genius strategy of flying right at the AT-ATs head on, nor is she forced to acknowledge at the end that it was indeed a brilliant strategy and she screwed up by disagreeing. What I have just described is what Poe went through in Last Jedi.

I honestly don’t mind Rey being overpowered. The movies treat her as being a unique case. It acknowledges that she shouldn’t be this powerful, yet she is. It’s part of the mystery of the character. There are still things we don’t know about her. There could be some type of Darth Revan situation with her or something. If the film was saying “yeah, she learned the force quickly and that’s just something that people do” then I wouldn’t be happy with it. But Luke is fucking shocked at what she can do with no training. The movie is telling us there is something very special about Rey and her unique natural abilities. So it depends on the argument against Rey. If it’s “Rey shouldn’t be this powerful because other people haven’t done what shes doing” then I’m not sure that’s totally valid. But if the argument is “I know she’s supposed to be a super unique case and there is something very special about her abilities, I just don’t like that” then I understand. I disagree, but I do understand.

As far as I can tell, it was always meant to be a mystery why Rey was so unusually skilled in the Force for a complete beginner. They finally paid off that mystery in Rise of Skywalker (she's part of a Force Diad with Ben and her picking up his skills during that two-way mind-link in The Force Awakens was hinting at that). Where they screwed up IMO is that they failed to acknowledge *in the films* that this was unusual so the audience was left wondering if they'd just screwed up this aspect. (An assumption that many people immediately leapt to and has dogged them ever since).

Actually Shaun’s second point is wrong. He’s he’s making another false equivalency by saying the sub plots are the same because they end in failure. The thing he doesn’t get is Finn and Rose’s failure has no impact on the plot whether Han and Leia failing caused Han to get frozen in carbon it’s and Luke to leave his training earlier to face Vader.

I just love how people compare the new trilogy to the OG trilogy by a story telling aspect. I can forgive the OG trilogy a lot more because story telling has advanced so much sense then. If the OG story had been released today, I think there would have been gripes also.

Dear diary: Today I saw a strange man standing in the street, examining a dog turd he was holding in his hand. He was constantly turning it around; observing it from all angles as if trying to understand it. Then i went home where it was safe. And where there were sedatives.

I think that the biggest problem with the move is how it is framed as a chase that at least on its face doesn’t seem to fallow Star Wars ship rules.

I disagree with the idea that Luke’s plan to rescue Han is “full of potholes” sure maybe there’s a couple here and there but if you take a step back and look at how it’s structured it’s honestly quite simple. Luke made the plan the way he did to give jabba as many “outs” as possible. At several points during this plan jabba could’ve easily just given Han Solo back but he mistakes Luke’s kindness for weakness. This is all exemplified when Luke says “this is your last chance jabba free us or die” at that point Luke was forced to kill jabba as a last resort. As for why literally everyone is in on the plan except threepio well let’s be frank he’s by far the most likely to chicken out if he knew the plan had a chance for him to be stuck working for jabba

Great video! Leia and Han and their journey on Bespin led to a couple of things: - they were used as pawns in Vader's pursuit of Luke, and Vader succeeded - their failures brought Leia to realize that she was in love with Han, a major personal turning point for her, and the essence of her arc in this film! - Leia's troubles helped Luke make important decisions, face his fears, learn profound truths, experience struggle, learn, and grow. I'm baffled by the defenders of TLJ. Pointing out flaws in movie X doesn't prove that movie Y, which also contained those problems, is flawless. None of their arguments are logical and defendable. It seems liked thay they simply liked TLJ, or were bribed, and are now looking for any reason available to justify their original emotional position. I modertely liked TFA when it came out, but realize now through careful review of the critics that it was a pretty flawed film. I can admit that I learned something and changed my position. I want to call those TLJ defenders "TLJ apologists".

Kylo: thank u grandfather spinning is a good trick

In RoTJ, I think Luke was trying to find a "peaceful" and "defensive" means to deal with Jabba instead of simply aggression against them. Hatred and Aggression lead to the Dark Side, so Luke was putting himself into the "victim" or "defensive" role so that the Light Side of the force could be used. That's my explanation for the plan to free Solo, although I do not think the makers of the movie were thinking this through. They just wanted a wacky antic-ridden sequence.

For me, Holdo's plan isn't the problem. Holdo not telling Poe the plan isn't the problem. Holdo not telling Poe there IS a plan is the problem. That would be the same as saying to Chewy "we may or may not have a plan to rescue you and Han, but why don't you let Leia lead you in like you've been captured anyway?"

I don't understand why Snoke's argument would explain Rey. Her powers yes, but not here proficiency in wielding them. With most "overpowered" characters, they are talented, have knack for certain things or have latent powers, but they always need intensive training or hardship to draw them out and _learn_ *how* to use them. Rey not so much.

So it's a plot hole to believe that luke couldn't just slaughter his his way through Jabba's Place by himself without 1. dying, 2. getting one of his friends killed, or 3. Falling to the Dark side?

3:56 'The Finn and Rose subplot is pointless to the overall story' is a very polite way to put it. That subplot does not belong in the movie whatsoever. I'm guessing aesthetically they were going for something that resembles Jabba's Palace, but even then it feels out of place. The subplot has basically nothing to do with the main characters or the actual story. The characters don't change and learn nothing (unless you want to count Finn learning about child slavery by a suicidal authoritarian girl, while he himself was actually a child slave). They opened the cages of some animals to make Rose feel better about herself (those animals would be either killed or recaptured soon after), and that is about it. They make an interesting point about weapon trading and manufacturing but they don't act upon it at all. The whole subplot sprouts from Holdo not taking her position or the looming threat of death seriously, which might be the worst scene in the worst film trilogy to date. Even if you want to allocate value to the Codebreaker versus Rose shoulder angel plot device for Finns decision to join the rebellion it didn't need all those scenes, and wasnt even done effectively in the end.. and it doesn't even matter because Phasma is weaker than the average stormtrooper, and Finn tries to sacrifice himself heroically but Rose doesn't allow him to save anyone because she forgot her character establishment and arc, so she rams his vehicle at 300 mph and they both die unheroically unceremoniously while all their friends get brutally murdered. Oh no wait people don't die unless you ram them with lightspeed..

There is also the argument that the new saga can make up new force powers because the original films did the same.. but in the original films this was posible because it was the beginning of world building and you have a lot of freedom to establish (ground)rules, once these rules are established you can't just change them when it's convenient to you.. this is also a good example why you can't always just compare the new films with the old ones, because context is important

Commenting on a four year old video... My first thoughts when I saw the Save Han Plan in Return of the Jedi were, that there were actually 3 totally separate plans. Lando made his own plan, not telling anyone, Leia made her own plan, shared only with Chewbacca, and Luke had his own plan. Not taking his lightsabre in himself seemed odd, but perhaps he hoped to get Han out through non-violent means, and having the light sabre on him would have distrupted that. The three separate plans mixed together and gave us what we got. To justify it in my mind, I decided they didn't tell each other their plans because the plans were risky, and they didn't want to imperil others with their outlandish plans. They were willing only to risk themselves, not others.

so, it's not ryan's fault about last jedi and it's not jj's fault. It was disney's fault for not making a plan for the trilogy. Marvel planned the mcu to lead to infinity war, and made sure the directors they hired follow the plan. but disney (and yes i know both of marvel and star wars are under disney) let their directors a free hand and vision, that in stand alone films is a great thing, but if you plans a trilogy, you may want to make sure the theme, character arcs and storylines continue on the path they started instead of destroying and start over

I love your show. That said, disagreements on your last point (minor). Blame for the Snoke thing falls squarely on Rian Johnson's shoulders. When I was a wee lad, me and my friends would play a game (the name of which escapes me at this moment). It involved one of us telling a story which s/he would not finish. The next person would continue the story, then the next, and so on. You could continue the story in whatever direction you wanted, but it needed to retain the same characters, plot threads, etc. If, say, the third storyteller (Rian) chose to give Sherlock Holmes the ability to fly, fine. Ridiculous, but fine. However, you would not blame the second storyteller (let's call him J J) simply because he introduced Sherlock and his need to reach some high place in chapter two. You see, J J has setup a situation, but Rian has introduced the foolishness that followed simply because his imagination is childlike and stupid. I also loved 'Thanos hair'.

This is my take on it, but I always liked that all this huge galactic conflict, the 3 movies culminated; found it's conclusion in Luke sparing his fathers life and standing his ground unarmed. Denying the ultmate villain the joy, subverting his expectation (see this Rian Johnson). Not overpowering them or being the most awesome special jedi. It showed that even normal people could step up and do the sacrifice for the people they love, for their family, even if it meant death. This for me is the legacy of Star Wars. You could replace the setting and the starships with WW2 or any other conflict and it would still work.

Han, Leia and the rest going to Cloud City wasn't pointless, neither was Luke going to Yoda. It pushed the plot forward, it introduced Billy D Williams as a character, and Luke got more training, even if he didn't complete it. It set up a lot for the next movie.

I don't think it's fair to blame TFA for not explaining Snoke entirely. To go with a different big overarching villain, imagine if Thanos had been killed off in Guardians of the Galaxy. He showed up at the end of the Avengers and was clearly important, but then oopsie doopsie he's dead now. We wouldn't know who he was, why he was who he was, what his plans were, or anything like that. Just some vague "He had a plan, maybe, but who cares look at this other guy!". I'm not saying that Snoke needed a backstory IN epsidoe eight, to be clear. Heck, I think even something vague like "The Sith aren't the only masters of the dark side" or "Child, I am older than the empire and the republic combined" would have done a lot. He doesn't need to sit everyone down and explain how he grew up in the country but his dad wasn't a fan of his music so he went to the big city and learned how to play the guitar or some nonsense like that, but just something to show that "Hey this character that casts question as to whether or not Anakin managed to put the force into balance has an explanation, we're just not gonna show it yet." Also why the heck did they kill Phasma off after giving her five minutes of screentime she got TWO BOOKS TO EXPLAIN WHO SHE WAS AND THEY WASTED IT WHY-

9:10 well Shaun is clearly making the argument that you cant say Star Wars has changed because its always had the same problems. He isnt saying that you cant critisise either of them he's saying the oplosite

Here's the thing about Holdo's plan compared to Luke's plan. Holdo's plan took up far more of the screentime of the movie and started one of the subplots as a result (which really went nowhere) and was the core of the tension in a lot of ways (with only Rey's plot being mostly unaffected) whereas Luke's plan was only at the start of the film and wasn't such a central thing to the core of the movie. Return of the Jedi is usually forgiven for the nonsensical plan because it doesn't take that long ot resolve and other parts (dealing with the second Death Star, confronting Darth Vader and the Emperor) aren't so heavily hinged on it. The Last Jedi, however, has that plot effectively take up most, if not all of, the movie, with only the initial conflict, much of Rey's plot, and VERY arguably the ending not being majorly connected so it being supported by a bad plan is far more egregious.

Anakin has an in-universe lore reason to be OP. Rey does not, and the only reason she *is* OP is because JJ literally stated in an interview that she was written to be perfect with the Force. I agree with you that TFA is to blame for no payoff to the setup of Snoke and TLJ failing to pick up the job.

I liked young Anakin, but I was seven years old at the time :p

It's really pleasant to watch a video about The Last Jedi without it being incredibly partisan or exhausting to watch. Keep up the good work Jay.

Well done video, would be interested to see another

Good video. I've run into these arguments continually online. Thanks!

I don't think the point about cinema sins is at all the same as the plot hole one. Cinema Sins exists primarily to point out flaws. When it is inaccurate, it defeats that primary, stated purpose. Film does not exist primarily to have a fully coherent story. There are of course many different reasons why someone would watch a movie. Shaun's point is that most people, even people making that argument, probably like movies for a lot of those other reasons. Now, I still think he was too dismissive of what remains a reasonable concern to have. But plot holes are not as fundamentally important to a movie as inaccuracy is to a cinema sins video.

something many people seem to forget about young anakin and his "overpowered" actions, most of those actions are by accident. He does very little impressive stuff in that film intentionally. The OP thing he does intentionally is the pod racing. Everything in his space adventure is both by accident and with the help of R2D2. He presses the wrong buttons like 5 times

I really liked how you handled this and I'd like to see more! One thing I'd like to see is some sort of combination between this and your usual critique, like a collection of critique to both positive and negative review of a movie

My problem with Snoke in TFA isn't even that he has no backstory. It's that the film doesn't even seem to notice he should have one.

Luke didn't bring his lightsaber with him so that when he allowed himself to get caught it wouldn't have been taken off of him.

@Jay Exci Shadows of the Empire explained the whole break Han out plan.... Lando went in first to get intel and to get set up and was working with Leia... Leia had her whole Chewbacca decoy to free Han from Carbonite and to get chewie and escape... and ultimately this is all occuring because no one believes Luke Skywalker is a jedi knight and wants to go with his plan... this is actually referenced in ROTJ when Chewie growls the plan to Han in the cell. Chewbacca growls (Im inferring what i believe chewbacca said.) = Luke has a plan to save us and get me my mother fucking medal! Han Solo "Luke, Luke is crazy. He can't take care of himself much less rescue anybody! Chewbacca growls (inference) = Luke is a jedi knight he can get me my fucking medal! Han Solo "A... A jedi knight!!? I'm outta of it for a little while everybody gets delusions of grandeur." kzfaq.info/get/bejne/sN-Gd6SEtM6nZ6M.html During the scene Chewbacca refers to teh plans in shadow of the empire.. the one everyone ignores because it sounds crazy. No one believes Luke is a fucking jedi! No one saw him fight vader in Empire, no one but R2 met Yoda, and in movies he's shown zero of his powers to his compatriots. It's understandable why he best friend is like "delusions of grandeur". At this point luke has only made a "lucky" shot on the first death star, and is a great pilot, but so are many people in the rebellion. So in Shadows when Luke explains he'll send R2 and C3PO in to request a fair trade for Han but that Jabba will refuse and keep the droids as the gift he was offered it'll place them inside. Leia will bring in Chewie to protect Han because of the carbonite symptoms.. remember leia knew them and explained them to han as he woke up.. "Your eye sight will return in time"... like that was part of a bigger plan.. When they get captured Leia warns almost like its a plan "you're making a mistake jabba. We have powerful friends you're going to regret this." Almost like her and everybody are acting on a coordinate plan under jabba's nose. HAn is out of carbonite, and has chewie to tell him the plan and protect him while he's blind, and jabba being jabba of course throws princess leia in her fabled bikinni to make her his love slave... kzfaq.info?search_query=rotj+we+have+powerful+friends Suddenly Luke comes in... He mind tricks the twilek like he knows he can.. but his powers fail to work on Jabba because it don't work on hutts... but immediately as if it didn't matter that the mind trick didn't work Luke threaten this intergalactic gangster in his own palace... "Never the less, I am taking Captain Solo and the wookie." Its almost like Luke knows he's a jedi and that his droid has his lightsaber cause he put it in there which he would know and is irrelevant to the veiwer... because the actor is protraying confidence that he knows something bigger is going on.. as if he is really in control of this situation despite being in Jabba palace with no light saber and weapons surrounded by Jabba's guards. The coup d'grace to me is when very nonchalant.. almost Obiwan eque states "You can profit from this or die, but i warn you not to underestimate my power." This line is delieved in a way like Luke is expecting, perhaps even relying on Jabba underestimating powers.. hey his best friend thinks he has delusions of grandeur. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/b5llatdmtp2dm5s.html it is clear Luke is provoking Jabba to kill him. Almost like Luke needs Jabba to leave his palace of invincbility where it's easier to kill him.. which he does do when he executes people. Right as Jabba is ordering their execution Luke says "This is the last mistake you'll ever make." I can't find a recording online that backs it up.. but i assure you it is there in the movie. We than move to execution. On the way there Luke says to Han "Just stick close to Chewie and Lando. I've taken care of everything." This is revelatory that Luke isn't neither worried and feels he 000has complete and utter control of the situation. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/pKeenqmHxrHSlZc.html Luke plan was simple. He relied on one thing and one thing only. Being a jedi. He offered peace like 3 times. Once with the droid gift, once himself, and again finally he states before the execution starts and things can't be undone... "This is your last chance Jabba... Free us or die!" kzfaq.info/get/bejne/pKeenqmHxrHSlZc.html All Luke needs for this entire plan to succeed is the these three things he is in complete control of. A lightsaber delivered via driod to fight with, time spent in training montage on dagobah to train his force powers, and foreknowledge that Jabba the hutt executes people in the tattooine desert... information that is likely common knowledge and used as a way to keep people in line if you say grew up on Tattooine.. Which luke even tells Han on the ride to the execution. "You know I grew up here right?" It's almost like Luke Skywalker possessed the jedi skills, general tattooine knowledge, and a astromech capable of following basic instructions like "Hey when they go to execute me shoot this lightsaber out of your head so i can catch ok R2". How any one can say Luke's plan makes no sense and that hte beginning of ROTJ makes no sense. Literally the only person who doesn't know that Luke has a plan is C3PO who literally is never told the plan.. which is a repeating star wars joke. How is this even a thing? IT shown that everyone knew there was a plan. Han outright mocked it.. and the plan was simple... give driod with lightsaber, piss off gangster until he kills you in the middle of the desert where he likes to kill people, and use jedi powers + lightsaber to kill Gangster, all his people, and escape.

I absolutely love your videos man

The Empire subplots are not pointless at all. Han and Leia are trying to hide from the Empire. I’m doing so, they get captured and used as bait so that Luke can go to Vader. Then Han gets frozen which is a plot point for the next movie. Luke’s subplot is him trying to Train to be a Jedi. His training wasn’t wasted. He held his own against Vader (even though Vader was toying with him). Luke then leaves, showing he isn’t quite ready, and he isn’t a full Jedi

And Snoke even has a ring made of Obsidian, so Steven Universe is 100% Star Wars cannon.

I find that C-3PO would have been one of the worst characters to tell the plan.

The casino planet plot point was not pointless because the characters fail, it was pointless because it doesn't lead to anything or have any consequences, Han and Leia being captured by the empire lead to Luke going to save them, and Luke losing to Vader led to his arm getting cut off and him finding out that Vader is his father, but the casino planet plotline leads to absolutely nothing.

One defense that’s annoying is “The other Star Wars movies were bad, so this is allowed to be bad as well”

I really enjoyed the last jedi and I understand and recognize the movie's flaws, but sometimes I feel like both sides of the argument are kind of... overexaggerated. On one hand, you have people blindly claiming that anyone and everyone who criticizes the movie is just nitpicking and a "hater". On the other hand, you've got people claiming that this movie is a giant steaming pile of dogshit that doesn't deserve any kind of praise, even though it had some pretty good aspects. I also do get slightly annoyed when people say the entire movie is bad, and just spending the entire argument pointing out plot holes (though this is just a pet peeve of mine). Where was I going with this.... Oh right I wish more people would take a more similar approach to you. You seem like if you hated the movie, you're willing to give credit where credit is due, and if you liked the movie you would recognize the flaws instead of blindly ignoring them. It's a more honest and transparent way of criticism that I wish was more common. Keep up the good work.

I just want to let you know that the "I don't think JJ Abrams wanted Snoke to be two lesbians in an overcoat" line made me laugh so hard that I choked in my own spit.

I cannot get used to Shaun's voice not sped up, because I watched TL;DR respond to him as a "first contact" and so my first experience of the voice was speedy

Well done. A fresh angle that paid off.. New subscriber.

Tbh non of the “plotholes” in the Sequel Trilogy” are actually plotholes. They are just things the movie doesn’t explain. Yes this is still a negitive BUT it isn’t an inconsistency.

Two things. One, I don't entirely disagree with the notion that Snoke never getting a backstory reveal is the fault of both films, but let's be honest, it's the fault of Force Awakens WAY more than Last Jedi. If anybody still actually believes that J.J. Abrams EVER has an answer when he writes one of his fucking "mystery boxes" into a movie, I don't think you've been paying attention. His writing style is to constantly hint at greater things to come that he can never possibly deliver on, which is usually why he hands all that stuff off to someone else to figure out. Sometimes they come up with some pretty cool answers (like in Fringe), and sometimes they come up with bullshit (like in Lost). Maybe Rian Johnson and whoever else was involved with crafting the story of Last Jedi (which I guarantee you were many of the same producers that helped Abrams craft Force Awaken's story) should have tried to come up with something more satisfying, but honestly, I think they made the best possible decision they could with the cards they'd been dealt. Truthfully, I was all ready for Snoke to have some really boring origin that tied back to some previous character somehow... and I can't tell you how much I wasn't looking forward to that. Saying that he just doesn't matter and killing him off was supremely more interesting than any other answer they could have come up with, in my opinion. Second, I do find it weird that when you say that Rey displays abilities that more experience Force users wield that you chose to show a shot of Luke Skywalker at the beginning of Episode V. You know, when basically the only lesson he's ever had in the Force is Obi-Wan doing the blast shield laser ball exercise and then telling Luke to "use his feelings" to know when to fire shots at the Death Star. To suggest that Luke is some kind of experienced Force user at the beginning of Empire is pretty not true. Truthfully, Rey was only slightly less experienced by the end of Force Awakens than Luke was at that point, and it's also worth pointing out that it was that scene in Empire that first introduced us to that power at all. And they chose to do so with a fairly inexperienced Force user. I think there's an argument to be made about Rey being a little overpowered, but this isn't an example of it.

I was hoping that Snoke was going to be two entities in an overcoat, except one of them was going to have the sole purpose of shooting off a big sky beam, and the other was going to grow into a huge soulless CGI monster. Truly would have been a perfect end 🥲

The difference with Return of Jedi is that the Jabba’s Palace sequence is completely divorced from the rest of the plot. There’s almost nothing that happens during the sequence that affects the rest of the film. Holdo’s plan IS the plot to The Last Jedi, or at least a massive part of it.

I always got the impression luke was trying to avoid casualties. He could have carved his way in but was exploring diplomatic and subterfuge based options. Once things kick off he demolished the hutt gang with ease but had to kill a lot of people, something he probably doesnt likd doing.

Honestly I loved the part of the movie where they rescue han. Basically my favorite part besides vader's redemption.

Plot holes are only as significant as the weight put on them in the story. Luke's plan to rescue Han Solo isn't a significant one because fixing the plot hole wouldn't adjust the course of the story in any way, aside from *maybe* not having the scene on Jabba's Barge. Holdo's plan to keep everyone alive is significant because it directly affects the actions taken by several other characters and the course of the story as a whole. If you fixed Holdo's plan and made her actions consistent with her stated motivations, you put the entire line of cause-and-effect that is the movie's plot in jeopardy. Even worse still, other characters are meant to have moments of growth and development based on what is effectively a lie the story is trying to tell you is true.

Lmao somehow I knew when you started talking about the Tatooine sequence in RotJ that Cosmonaut's video would be brought up