Sometimes, a "faction" doesn't have to be a tribe, group, sect, or cult. A faction might be one very powerful monster that isn't just motivated to kill the heroes. The dungeon can be a lair and what monster doesn't want a bigger more impressive lair? Have it hire the heroes to clear out space. Or fetch useful stuff. Sometimes a monster that cannot be easily addressed is good for this, like a ghost. A dragon might tease the heroes with knowledge of the dungeon in return for a share of the treasure.

Many years ago in my AD&D days our group was playing a mega dungeon by Thieves Guild or maybe Judges Guild (we played adventures by both publishers). The PC's got legitimately lost by walking through a one way portal and we had no clue how to get out. For several game sessions that amounted to 1 month in game we wondered around. We ran out of torches, food and water. Forget about treasure we were looking for a water source and hunting monsters to eat. I felt a real sense of despair. It was the most fun I ever had in a mega dungeon.

12:38 - Rumors When you said, "Ooh! That group got a magic sword. We want a magic sword!", the first thing that popped into my mind was my players planning to kill the rival adventurers and take their magic sword. I'm a lot more careful about how I dish out rumors to my players.

I'm pretty sure I've alluded to this before, but I love rival NPC parties using the town and megadungeon. Not necessarily violently antagonistic, but racing to get the best stuff, get the better reputation, get the better commissions. Of course, if a dragon is found, everybody might join forces to deal with it.

" The Ecology of the Dungeon" something most DM's never consider, but SO IMPORTANT to verisimilitude. WELL DONE, love your channel!

Your channel is so consistently amazing. Jesus dude. When are we gonna get the Bandit's Keep Compendium of Being the Best DM Ever?

Nice video! I'm currently a DM for a monthly 2-hour event / session at my local library. It's open to the public, so I never know who or how many are going to show up. I decided that rather than trying to do a bunch of mini-adventures I would do a mega-dungeon instead. The local town hires the PCs to explore and map the dungeon. At the end of the 2 hour session they return to town. So, somewhat "West-Marches" meets "Mega-Dungeon", LOL! They are required to map (that's what the town hired them for) and the map gets handed over to each new party that enters the dungeon. So they can see where others have already been and decide where they want to continue exploring. So far it's been a lot of fun, and doesn't require a lot of story-arc development and no backstories to deal with: just go in, find out what's in there and make it out alive again.

I once ran a megadungeon out in the wilds, far from civilization. As various adventuring groups were drawn to the dungeon, so too were merchants and tradesmen hoping to capitalize on the newfound wealth being brought out from the depths. Thus a camp sprang up, initially with just a tent to serve as a tavern and brothel, and a blacksmith who could make rough repairs to weapons and armour. Eventually caravans of merchants started to arrive to bring supplies and purchase items found by adventurers. I modeled the camp on Deadwood, the camp created to serve prospectors during the Dakota gold rush, complete with colourful characters inspired by those from the HBO series. It was such fun to watch the camp grow into a full-fledged town over the course of the campaign. And Deadwood is an ideal town upon which to base a megadungeon-centric trading center.

My man is on Fire with these how to make xyz because they are literally as timely as can be to my brainflow

I ran a meg dungeon for a small group to 2 to 3 players. The had joined an Adventurers Guild and got random NPC/Helpers that would go with them. At the same time there were two to three other parties (NPCs) doing the same thing. As the game went along, different groups began to gain a reputation, good or bad, in their adventures. Near TPKs would suddenly cause the survivors to become available to the players as new hires. This also fed a constant stream of hooks and information about the dungeon to the players as they sat around the Tavern looking at the available help board or swapping tall tales of their exploits. Some of the most fun was running into rival groups in-dungeon both before and during a big fight.

I've always loved the idea of competing groups of NPC's looting the dungeons. It creates a sense of realism and gives the characters some "friendly" competition as opposed to a nemesis. I use quotations because that friendliness can become a rivalry and more as time goes by!

always liked the idea of ambushing a rival group that is progressing further, an excellent opportunity for players to identify an enemy group's strengths and weaknesses, as well as strategize and be active in a tactical fashion.

Another great video! I totally agree that a mega dungeon should be a living ever changing ecosystem. Events around the mega dungeon should be both historic and current with future events that could come to pass with the players actions. Breaking into a forgotten barrow and accidentally awakening an ancient evil. Coming back to the dungeon only to find that evil has restocked it with its minions. Or that sword the players couldn't find only to discover the adventurers who beat them to it went into a certain level and haven't been heard from. Encouraging them to explore another section. So many options!

I’ve been running Barrowmaze for the last 1.5 years using a highly homebrewed 5E. It’s been a great experience as DM. Lots of lessons learned.

"Back in the day" a single playing session could easily run 10 or 12 hours on a weekend day so the instance of a 5th level party having to fight its way through goblins and skeletons to get to their destination level wasnt THAT bad. But today, when our sessions are limited to 2 to 4 hours, that situation would be an inexcusable waste of gaming time. Speaking of time, your points on tracking time in the campaign are spot on! Knowing where each of the various groups is in relation to each other IN TIME is crucial. Down time, travel time, exploration time, scroll fabrication time, etc, etc, etc is pretty straightforward -- once you get in the habit of noting it. Super video and great content as always! Thank you for sharing 👍

I recently created a 64 room with corridors mega dungeon which was only one level. The very first thing I did was reason why it was there and what lived in it. It was an old magic college which was swallowed up by a landslide on the side of a mountain. This happened about 50yrs ago. Recently, weather revealed at least one entrance, [there were actually 3, this is how monsters found and made lairs]. There were magical traps, tricks, puzzles and creatures within this small ecosystem. Some fought against each other when encountered. There was also an abundance of magical items of various use to any who found them. Normally a dungeon this large would take me months to build but I used Chat GPT to help me with dungeon dressing, monster motivations, unique monsters and so on. It only took 6 weeks. It was a VTT game so I had to do some work with LOS. You give good advice keep it up Daniel.

Forge of Fury is an excellent example of the Mega Dungeon you are describing. Next Actual Play?!

I LOVE Megadungeons 😅 one of my favorite things to collect, some of them are GORGEOUS. Maze of the Blue Medusa is my favorite. Like any mega dungeon its a challenge to run but it has a fun concept and is really creative room to room. Not the kind if place you run in killing everything.

Excellent video. A megadungeon isn't a cop-out for DMs. It's a LOT of work to make a good one. It's got to be interesting, not a grind, and there will be good stories in it and from it. At the base though: it's crunching monsters, evading traps, and gathering treasure to become famous and rich and retire as a lord somewhere in the campaign world, if you live through it.

I'm about to run Castle Zagyg for my group, and I managed to glean something important to them from each of their backgrounds. They all were thinking of reasons to leave home and explore this dungeon in the first place. "Well what if your family's sword was innthe area?" "You may have heard about an elder god of your desire being worshipped in the dungeon." "There is an ancient library which may have star charts for your astrology studies," etc. These were all provate conversations I had with them, and it immediately got them all excited. I wonder if they'll share their secret goals with each other.... 😉

It seems that a mega dungeon campaign might work best with a larger number of players. The variety in intetests and approachs that a number of players are likely to bring to the game helps keep things lively and fresh. I have not run a long mega dungeon campaign, but 2-3 players in my experience tire of dungeon delving and either abandon the dungeon or the campaign. Factions is a great idea IF players are motivated to interact with the factions. The campaign hinges on a marriage of GM and player expectations. Cheers!

I'm running a megadungeon and asked the players for a list of magic items that they want so that I can seed them in the dungeon. I think this has increased engagement.

Another superb video. The advice to start with depth is so good

Love the content. You always have great incite. Thanks

Whoa, that was really great advises. Thanks

Tracking time and having weather outside the dungeon change with the seasons would be good. Parts of the dungeon may be flooded. I like the idea of a long running game. We had a vast Underdark with different regions and dungeons linked by natural rifts and cave complexes. Players had a rough map with symbols marking different locations. They eventually learned what the symbols meant. And avoided types of monsters, etc.

Just in time! I was looking for good content on Mega Dungeons, and you delivered. Thanks for the information!

Adding this to the playlist of immediately useful videos. Thank you for posting!

Great timing, sir! Going into the lab to come up with new campaign.

A lot of good ideas and concepts for a game

Part of the issue I have with megadungeons is that it often ends up being some contrived "you're trapped within and can't get out" thing or it's specifically designed with "gotchas" to push PCs to where they don't want to go to try and TPK them. If it was something like old-school RPGs (non-tabletop) where you are expected to leave the dungeon at some point and go back to town, then go back to the dungeon and get back to the level you were on. Kind of like Wizardry, where the dungeon was like 10 levels but they had an elevator basically to go to the level they wanted. Weird idea for a TTRPG I guess though.

For my mega dungeon I have it reset every month in game. It is the main attraction for a city state and is a massive tower. The party are currently exploring it. Another thing is that there is a teleportation circle at the start of every level so that when they reach a level they can get back to it regardless of if the floors bellow have changed

I haven't ever run or really played in a mega dungeon (I did play in two sessions of a Barrowmaze game years ago) but have been intrigued by the idea, or at least intrigued by why people enjoy them. From the outside looking in, the concept feels very procedural and very light on roleplay, if there's any roleplay at all. If the players themselves know how to "dungeon" the dungeon it could especially get procedural it would seem. I've heard people using dungeon crawling shorthand like "dwarfing the tunnel or greyhawking the room" instead of describing what they are doing, ideas that reinforce to me the concept of it being a procedural activity. There's a lot of old school video games that were built after mega dungeon style of play and they get very tiring.

This was very informative as I was also thinking about building a larger than normal dungeon for a campaign. I think its okay for it be good for low-level characters, but the long-term would be difficult if you want to spark your player's interest (or solo) and go through the prep of making additional levels. One neat idea i found online that could help do improv for mega dungeons is the Rarity Die. All you need is a D6 and each result from common (1-3), uncommon (4-5) and rare (6) and make a flexible table. Especially for returning back to the dungeon and making changes along the way. Hopefully If i do make a mega-dungeon solo then this might be how i make/play through it .

Great video as always. I’ve haven’t run a mega dungeon yet but I recently got Stonehell and plan on having it as a central location on the map for an open table. That way the game doesn’t focus on it but it’s always an option for parties to go and explore little by little over the course of the campaign.

You know I've never really played a megadungeon - we tried a 2e one, Ruins of Myth Drannor way back when - but it didnt last. I'd like to give it another try. Great point on the many discoverable entrances!

I've never really grokked the idea of the mega dungeon, but every now and then I run across something that makes me rethink it. You have presented a lot of great ideas on how to do it. You especially make a great point about the return trips into the dungeon to go deeper. When I've considered designing a megadungeon, I really want to scrap the old-school idea of the PCs not being able to camp in the dungeon. I liken the idea to a mountain climbing expedition. The climbers have a base camp (which can be the base town), and they establish additional camps along the climb. These camps are relatively safe places, generally stocked with resources the climbers need. So, I've considered having the PCs establish camps within the dungeon. They'd need plenty of retainers to maintain the camps and keep the camps supplied. I think this could be a pretty fun dungeon delve, and maybe someday I'll actually try it out.

Into the Megadungeon is a great podcast hosted by the creator of Through Ultan's Door.

Spent a lot of time delving various levels and sub levels of Undermointain, but that was all back when I was a teen, so it was just kicking in doors and killing folk. One day I’d love to run a proper Ptolus campaign, though probably updated to Pathfinder.

Ah the rival NPC party! In my mega dungeon THE BLACK STAIRS, the party meets a monk in Muddy Axe Inn, located in Raven's Keep far far in the western frontier. He is a LN sort who has the Raven's Keep Adventuring Guild with a 100gp a month membership fess, payment plans available. Claims to the the only "Officially Sanctioned" adventuring guild in the area. He of course ease drops on the loaction of the dungeon and before the players know it, there is an "Official claim" on the Dungeon upon penalty of the law. This is of course aftert he party has been in and out of the dungeon. Smart players notice that on the back is 13 signatures, a huge party. Everytime any party ignores the claim and goes in anyway. Do they meet this party? Is that party successful? It becomes a part of the mega dungeon story.

I think for me the key appeal and use of a mega dungeon tentpost really only exists when the game system has some sort of systems-based reason for the party to be interested, i.e.: XP = Gold. I love that system because of how it can incentivize the party, but I think absent that the concept of repeatedly going into a progressively more dangerous, theoretically bottomless delve is just not as inherently interesting to the players either as their characters, or personally, in the real world. I also think the time discussion highlights how this sort of game is helped by having time pass at a 1:1 to IRL time when the party is outside the dungeon, as it allows the Judge to realistically think about how much would change in the week, month, whatever between game sessions. The incredibly compressed time of the modern game with its "1 day to heal from near death even at level 1" is not the friend of this type of game. Great content, as always.

Go Daniel!! Spinning RPG gold effortlessly.

Would like to see you start another dungeon starting with level 3. I remember your other one being pretty good too.

Cool!

I've done a Mega Dungeon as a campaign, but in a different flavor than what you suggest here. I call the dungeon Akrid's Dungeon, and the players wake up already inside of the dungeon. I have ran it 3 times, 2 of which were the same but with different groups, and the 3rd was a new layout with new encounters. The plot is Akrid is a mad-mad-mad-mad-mad-mad-mage and he has captured the party (and possibly others) to fight and escape out of this death trap of a dungeon. In my mind the players start at floor 0, and as they go up they go to floors 1, 2, 3, etc. Or if they go down they go to floors -1, -2, -3, etc. They aren't sure where the escape is, and must find their way out. I run it until they get bored if they're sick of being in there (by level 5 for example), though they could continue it to completion if they wish to play it to the end. The whole idea of the dungeon is its supposed to be modular, with different introductions, different themes, and various ways to escape. I like the idea of different parties running the same dungeon. I could see that working for Akrid's Dungeon, since the guy literally captures people and has them placed in there to escape. If you're reading this far, Daniel, have you ever done a Hyperborea Mega Dungeon campaign?

And of course the town guard, who used to be an adventurer until he got an arrow in his knee, might have been down there and know lots of things.

I need to make/run a mega dungeon. I haven'y done that since... circa 1984

Game " Sunless Citadel," Good for all starting class levels. Factions, .. a.) goblins, b.) Kobolds, .. c.) Dark druids cult, .. d.) baby wrymling red dragon. e.) The players, with or without PCing the stander starting races. So you have Five faction cards to draw from. ( We role play the dragon like an oversize house cat with a grade school mentality. Mainly cause the shop own/ DM has children.) Normally from AD&D to WotC 3e, publish adventure the players were never mention that they could PC a non human or play a faction of said dungeon. For Whitewolf/World of Darkness (WoD) vampire or their other books. Each player is embrace or born, school into a given faction of that setting's world politics and traditions. 2.) My last game shop had the views of, .. a.) Stander one shot, maybe a few side quests then leave that village or township behind to rarely be return to. b.) We mostly PC smugglers or Sith in Star Wars so neutral evil with minor lawful lending through .. contracts. So we go into a location to build contact and create spy networks. c.) Look at the town players are, then play faction like Vampire of player vs player. The enemy of my enemy is just another pawn in the game. Needless to say, if location is played at 8th to 10th-level and a/ or multiple dragons involved, expect a wizard to polymorph themselves into a dragon to Flirt with the main dragon for fun. ( .. and now we know how half-dragons came about ..) d.) Just treat the whole thing like its a video game. 3.) Joke, .. Slip & Slide. Why are the goblins chisel smooth and polish the grand hall floor to a slippery mirror finish ? Ever seen a 14ft lizards slide everywhere with its claws trying to gain traction for movement ? Ever saw a video of a little dog running in place on a wood floor ? Tell players to have their PC make wisdom roll to see if they notice just how strange it was to see a dragon slide out of control pass the doorway. Like a duck on ice. Was that dragon making duck calls ? b.) Player one, neutral lawful good, " You can't make friends or tame a chaotic evil baby dragon ! " Player two, neutral evil, " Druids are neutral evil, goblins and kobolds are lawful evil so that slide the red baby dragon to neutral evil with impulsive issues. Base on its current social environment " Player three, lawful neutral good, " They are All still evil. " Player four, neutral lawful evil, multiclass as rogue/wizard from nobility, " No .. I am .. evil, and I am going to show them all how it is done." Tow two chaotic neutral/ evil rogue/bards corrupt the baby dragon and drive the lawful evil human noble wizard nuts.

So, what do you think of my small, low-level megadungeon?

Off topic but: can you please tell me the name of the scifi map makers that are your occasional sponsors?

Don't forget that some of the rumors should involve PC activities, and like all good rumors, won't be 100% true. Unless doppelgangers or clones are somehow involved....

I recognize the problem of "too rich" characters but I dont personally like the idea of trying to cheese players out of their hard earned gold in any way. But yeah, it is sometimes difficult to find ways for characters to spend the dungeon money in a way that is motivating to them and drives the game forwards, and not have them walk around being filthy rich and question why they should risk their lives in dangerous ruins anymore. I have allowed magic item creation (spending money on craftsman, enchanter, materials, reagents) which has given a player-driven meaningful money dumb. Players can make it their own quest to acquire something they want , like epic swords, +2 plate mail or a powerful wand or staff. Just make it so that "deciding" what magic item you want is so expensive, that it is still exciting to find the random stuff in the dungeon. Also, when the money really piles up its good to start to think big and set some big money goals that justify the tens of thousands of gold that the characters pile up. OSR of course has the stronghold system, but in our 5e game the most recent happy accident was that my players acquired a manual of stone golemns. Creating the golem costs 80 000 gold, so its a very end game goal, they got excited and now they certainly dont think they have too much money anymore infact always too little.

Many who came out never went in...

Gygaxian naturalism?

Few points and we are dealing with the age of people doing RPG and those who are watching your videos. Like a round fifty years of tabletop compared to the development of video games. Mega dungeon compare to, .. a.) British history of mining coal. Boys and young men survive WW I trench warfare only to return to England to die as men under their hometown. b.) Salt mine in Germany, the location was so stable the miners caver out a grand church and ball room fit for nobility. Needless to say it was the nobility & guides that ran the place. A few German petty kings and duke were more than a bit upset how grand a place was inhabit by peasants. And the clergy reminded the royalty that their halls are only a few decades old while this salt carve camber is centuries old with religious devotion carved into the place and work over with decades of refinement. c.) Said dungeon belongs to one group farming/ mining township or is it a dozen groups spread out over miles of caverns. Then there is other European mining villages/towns where you have 7miles of dug out tunnels but barely reach 3miles from the center of the town being a church. 2.) Back in the late 1990's with AD&D at my first game shop and dealing with immature d*cks fussing on map makers, want Official AD&D stories and not generic Sword & Sorcerer. I at 21 years old said F-U All and this is how you run game maps that get into the subconscious of players. With this folder. I burnt through five levels with side zone over 2hrs of fast-paced action and dreadful loneliness spells. After wards the college students and fifty years olds were begging to know my source book is. I pulled it out, .. it was a magazine copy of .. " Better Homes & Gardens." b.) Sadly over the years I have notice there are people that are just hateful to anyone that is playing a magic user. Needless to say I haven't played in a shop for over 16years, but on other videos the post just leave me shaking my head. Then again, I am in my mid-forties.

I'm planning a mega dungeon with 101 rooms, one way "out" where there will be a clear winning player by earning points which is different from loot and stats. They still have to work together or they'll never make it out. The dungeon is so big there's less emphasis on terrain and more of zones. Trap zones, treasure zones, boss zones, etc.