thanks mate!

Thanks, will do!

I am so glad to hear that you did the HG course and that you put the knowledge into practice! Well done!

@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks, I don't always agree with how Adam presents but you can't fault the course, it's one of if not the most comprehensive around. I came from a mainly electrical and commercial heating background though so it was very much the norm to know parts but no where near everything that is included. One thing I will say about the legionella cycle, often it's better to just have the immersion heater on a 1 hour heat up once a week/app controlled via something by Timeguard or alike to boost it to 60c if people have been away etc. The overall saving from the decreased gas consumption allows for the immersion to be quite economical to boost that last 15 or so degrees. Until manufacturers controls are more capable it's a decent alternative.

@@effervescence5664 yes - that is what I am going to do from now on on both heat pumps and bolers

do it. Then joing HG assured scheme and go into renewables. Heat Geek Heat Pumps has a real chance to grow into country wide network that will be the top choice for customers who are after quality installers.

With a little of patience and help from different forums (Delta T on FB is good or DIY NOT combustion chamber) - you can work out most set ups. So far I know that PDHW and load or weather comp on system boilers can be done with: - all Viessmann boilers - all Vaillant boilers - all Intergas Boilers - some Worcester Bosch boilers - all Ideal boilers - although it is not even remotely comparable to above boilers There is also a number of boilers that can't do it at all. I have not researched Baxi, Vokera, etc. I would not even waste my time with other lesser brands. There is a set up with EPH contorls that can turn any Open Therm compatibile boiler into PDHW - but again, I have had no time to research that subject.

Thank you! Cheers!

Thanks for watching!

boilers are out anyway - maybe 10 years left for new installs. Hopefully HP market will be better in terms of contorls.

@@UrbanPlumbers I couldn't agree more with you. There is little point in getting a "new" gas boiler installed of any make with supposedly 7-12 year warranty's. There will not be any parts available. What are the alternatives, Heat pumps? The jury is still out, but time will tell. Mainly because we are in a cold region and our housing stock is very old. The only option is to wind the clock back and go back to the good old days of "Economy 7" night time storage heating. Is there anyone from that era?

Yes, manifold to UFH only. Rads are on the existing pipework.

Also, moving to PDHW is much more complex than S plan. Every single boiler manus does it diffrently, so you have to learn each system from scratch. They are similar, but none are identical set ups.

Thank you for the note. Any chance of knowing if and when we might be able to see Vaillant control products such as VRC720 and VR66/02 and VR71 wiring centres becoming more readily available at a reasonable price?

At the moment there is no indication that they will be available again

@@UrbanPlumbers I was beginning to think the same and it will be years before Vaillant is able to produce similar products locally in the UK for that matter. Isn't this sounding very ominous and the slow demise of the Vaillant brand? Let me correct that to a speedy decline!

@@MP-mu1kw No, because no one cares about efficiency in the UK so no one buys those controls anyway. Vaillant will keep selling condensing boilers connected to on / off controls and most will not have a clue - installer and customer alike. I would estimate that only around 5% of engineers and customers are even aware of the difference those controls make.

@@UrbanPlumbers You have hit the nail on the head! That is the same reason I decided to get out the trade in the late 90's.

thank you.

Quick heat may not be a good thing at all. What controls do you have on the boiler?

Thanks Gary, If only Vaillant could finally get their act togehter and actually sort out manufactuing issues with controls. I hear it is going to get even worse next year.

@@UrbanPlumbers As you know I've been trying (and failing) to get a hold of a VR70 and wireless SensoComfort for months, I'm informed there's still a 10 week delay. As you pointed out, no point in using these premium brands if you can't use their purpose built controls. It truly beggars belief

@@LondonGas Just shows you that Vaillant does not care about efficiency at all. They can't sell their heat pumps without the controls too, so all controls are allocated to heat pumps now. If they cared about efficiency - they would only packs of boilers with controls. The fact that Vaillant boilers still get installed with on/off 3rd party controls is crazy.

there is a franchise already - its called 'Heat Geek elite' - google it.

@@UrbanPlumbers I watch that channel - also absolutely great, using their advice and now running my gas boiler at 42c flow rate, Was at 75c!!!!. Thanks for replying and really love your work. Your knowledge is inspirational.

Flamco (pumps sued here) also does a header for pumps like it.

@@UrbanPlumbers We have just started using this pump & mixing station with header technology for the radiant heating & cooling and ventilation systems we deliver, I am in love with them, the plant room should be installed in the lounge, so pretty.

no issues at all. You can connect anything you want to VR71 - as it only does 2 things: - sends 230V to a pump (so any pump can work) - sends 2 x 230 to a 4 wire mixing valve to turn it up or down - so pretty much any 4 wire valve (or 3 wire if you omit E) can be used as well

Ah ok, thanks mate👍

It would be still beneficial to install a VR70 and VRC700 plus VR91. You would have to change any Plumbig and just rewire existing set up. This would give you 2 flow temps (Dhw and CH) and wether compensation or load comp with different controls. Trouble is getting your hands on the kit (vr70 and vrc700 or vrc720) I would imagine that the boiler is greatly oversized too unless you live in a 10 bedroom, 6 bathrooms mansion.

@@UrbanPlumbers Well ahead of you friend. My setup Vaillant sensoCOMFORT VRC720F Wireless RF Multi-Zone Room Thermostat Vaillant VR921 sensoNET Internet Gateway Vaillant VR66 Control Centre VR10 Weather Probe I control it all from the application or SensoComfort device you had shown. Maybe I can ping you and book some time to validate the setup I have for efficiency

mwphs.co.uk/?s=Flamco&post_type=product

We do. They are called heat geeks ;)

Viessmann 200 is by far the best gas boiler ever made. I do like it a lot.

@@UrbanPlumbers Hope to see you install one soon! Best of luck!

@@UrbanPlumbers Wow! Combi or System? It's a shame you don't like to video the installs as so many would benefit from it. Viessmann are a pain but the end result is often hard to dismiss.

It’s slowly changing though

It’s usually not required.

yes - that is most likely what I am going to be doing from now on. Legionella function is useless on Senso Comfort. Even on heat pumps, people complain that water gets to 75C!

Thats how I got around the problem to. I have only been able to run it weekly rather than every 10 days or two weeks. How do you do this automatically with the Tesla?

Not yet!

not in the UK. How would you do it? Remember, those boilers do not support Open Therm in the UK and you cannot retorfit OT board to them (VR33) - as it invalidates the warranty.

We don't need OT(open therm communication protocol). About 3 years ago, I installed a Glow-worm combination boiler with a weather compensation setup using a hard-wired outside sensor. At that time, the system had 7 radiators and 1 bathroom. Two years later, they converted the garage with an additional shower and loft with one more shower. In total, 3 showers/bathrooms. Combi couldn't feed them simultaneously as we know. The client didn't want to replace the boiler but wanted to install an unvented cylinder 200l and heat it using the existing combination boiler and still integrate weather compensation with hot water priority. So what I done is a little experiment. I watched what happens when the outside sensor is connected and disconnected and reconnected again. To my surprise, the last adjusted settings were kept. So, for example, if I set my flow temperature to 70° while the outside sensor is disconnected, the boiler will be aiming for that temperature target, which is enough to heat the cylinder. But as soon I reconnect, the outside sensor wires, the boiler will be reverting to the last setting done on the heating curve. In my case, curve setting 2.1 which will determine the flow temperature based on the outside temperature. So I concluded that all I need is a third-party relay, which will be connecting and disconnecting my outside sensor automatically. Hot water priority is also achieved through the same relay. For example, when you have demand simultaneously from heating and hot water, the live cable that powers the hot water motorised valve at the same time powers the 4 pole normally closed relay, which in turn disconnects the outside sensor and power to the heating motorised valve. As soon the hot water demand is satisfied, the power to the relay is disconnected, and contact is made back up to power heating motorised valve and peekaboo (reconnecting outside sensor for lower temperature heating only). I spent £15.00 on 4 pole 240v normally closed relay, £3.50 on relay housing with din rail. It sounds crazy, but it works well. Hope that helps others 🙏

It's a good thing you guys produce your own gas!

@@singlendhot8628 Basically all hotwater cylinders in Norway are electric and run on cheap hydropower, new houses may have a heatpump version though. Fossil fuels are not subsidized for domestic use, but rather heavily taxed.

Those have been ordered. Just haven’t arrived on time

@@UrbanPlumbers Nice one!

link is in the description under the video. But here you go again: www.urbanplumbers.co.uk/vaillant-eco-tec-plus-system-boiler-hot-water-priority-diagrams/

@@UrbanPlumbers thank you. Just found then . Cheers for all you do

Yes you can do all of that. You can use 3rd party stats to contorl VR71 or use them togehter with VRC720. You can use your own pumping station using 3 wire actuators - the whole set up is super flexible. The only trouble is - you can't buy it and propably will not be able to get any VR71 or VRC720 for another 12 months.

Yes true. Sadly I also see architects and specifiers doing the same with heat pumps which is even more problematic than gas boilers oversizing

@@UrbanPlumbers yes, I was also trying to get this across to them in that respect - apparently the same architect *thinks* that they wouldn't be able to have a HP (without explanation) which seems short sighted since they're ripping everything out anyway so could easily go down that road now - mixed with a mother-in-law who doesn't like big rads and prefers to spend the money on shiny kitchens and bathrooms rather than the fabric of the building it's ARGGGGHHH

It depends if the radiators are low temp design or not and also if the system is weather compensated. On low temp system with weather comp you will need separation, on high temp you can ‘get away’ with no separation usually. Does not make it right though.

@@UrbanPlumbers thanks, yes it’s high temp without weather comp. I know it isn’t ideal, I think if I was to do it properly I would insert a close coupled tee at the boiler, and then have a pump running the rads. Intergas also advise in their manual to either have hydraulic separation or a normally open zone valve before the manifold to avoid the UFH pump pulling water through the heat exchanger while DHW is being called for so I intend to fit it this way first as recommended by Intergas, and then look at ways of modifying the system to make it more efficient in future. Thanks for your help 👍

Mine stuck quite well, but the self level done by the builder cracked anyway as it did not stick to the aluminium foil. They didn’t prime it though and used cheap Self level from Wickes.

@@UrbanPlumbers Ah yeh that's not good if they didn't prime it, as well as not sticking very well a lot of screeds react with the aluminium creating air bubbles in the screed

@@LocostR1 if they used primer and a decent leveler it would have been fine. I had the same system on other jobs with no trouble.

if the coil size and insulation are similar, then no. To boost efficiency on hot water you will need a high gain cylinder (same as you would use on a heat pump) and a setup that allows a periodic legionella cycle so that most of the time you only rise the temp in the cylinder to 50C. (Same cylinders as we use for heat pumps)

Yes you can use ZV but then you need 2 of them for both rads and towel rails. I would rather just use electric heating elements for the towel rails than add 2 zv

yes it crossed my mind that I could use 2 mixed circuits, just thought it would be unnecessary. One thing worries me though - on a mixed UFH circuit - what is here to stop the end user getting wrong flow temp and a wrong heat curve and running UFH too hot?

@@UrbanPlumbers you add a high limit stat to the ufh pump.

@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 couldn't be simpler right ;)

Thanks Ken!

flamco

it is a low loss header with an air separator and magnetic filter in one! It is from IMI.

largish 4 bed. No need for blending valves or pumps on manifolds.

McGyver woud have used existing boiler and turned it into a nuclear power plant.

yes correct. In that case, rads were high temp and I did not want a pump behind the header as it was simply not needed and still in series with 2 UFH manifold pumps. If that setup was low temp (larger radiators) then I would have to re-pipe parts of it and keep the header. The system works well, and is much more efficient than previously. What I have done there was a compromise. I did quote for a repipe and proper separation but it was too much for the client so had to scale back and compromise.

Yes V200 is nice but takes a lot of persuading to explain that there is no thermostat on the wall. Also Viessmann is such a joke of a company, just makes me feel sick every time I have to deal with them - beyond useless. If I can I chose vaillant.

@@UrbanPlumbers The whole benefit is linked to no thermostat on the wall :) Sorry to hear - but if you want to squeeze every kWh out, nothing can beat the V200. Our customers are saving 20%...sometimes less sometimes more. If you call Viessmann tech support, ask for Phil. He knows his stuff and will help you! So will Andrew Millward, who is a master of the 200!

@@singlendhot8628 thanks mate - but that is the whole problem with Viessmann - there is just 1 helpful bloke there - poor Phil 😃😃😃

​@@UrbanPlumbers No installer on the planet can disagree with you on that one. Viessmann lost their good people, most went to Vaillant, which may explain why you like them so much! We look at it slightly differently & want our end users to save the most gas. If that means a bit more agro during the installation, so be it. Once it's up and running, we hardly ever get called back. Also, have you tried Mixergy cylinders for your low temp installs?

@@singlendhot8628 just got a message today from a client saying that Vaillant and SensoComfot I installed for him is using 2.8 less gas than the previous set up. He also insulated the house though. Vaillant + senso comfort + low temp rads can be amazingly efficient. I know that Viessmann is great as well, and even more efficient, but I chose a little less efficiency for less aggro with Vallant.

PDHW out of the box. No timing required or needed as boiler fires at different rate for DHW ignoring WC

@@UrbanPlumbers I don't think my ecotec plus does this, as when the timer comes on for hot water the whole house gets very hot, even though they are on separate pumps... will check the manual!

@@pumpkinhead456 something not installed correctly then

@@UrbanPlumbers I've found it, but it's only for mixed systems (ie mine doesn't have a diverter valve before the multiple pumps). It's in Installation configuration - domestic hot water - parallel cy. Charging. Mine was set to yes, changed it to No and it now switches the other pumps off when heating water 👍

@@pumpkinhead456 wel done!

TVM should not be installed at the cylinder though. It should be as close to the outlet it serves as possible, no? SO multiple TVM as needed. (I may be wrong though) I just see it as a waste of energy.

@@UrbanPlumbers you can do either. Mine is at the cylinder but only works when the legionella cycle has heated the water up to 75, water is usually stored at 45 and the tmv is set for 55.

you could just get a 'wrong' NTC - yes

Yes - they are exactly the same components as used on Vaillant Heat Pumps. From what I hear Vaillant is running very low on stock even for heat pumps now.

You can’t limit the boiler flow on eBUS

@@UrbanPlumbers not even on the boiler panel? 🤔

No, eBUS overrides any settings you do on a panel and on legionella cycle it does it’s own thing anyway

@@UrbanPlumbers oops, this is ridiculous 😂

@@sevastoskoumtzis5401 not really, that is the whole concept of the set up - it runs at 3 different temperatures at the same time so changing display temp should have no bearing on how the system fires

do you mean PDHW + Nest OT on Vaillant?

@@UrbanPlumbers yeh I think u had a video but was removed .,. Does it matter if it's Vaillant or Ideal Vogue Max ?

propably around £1k more. But you get much better efficiency, much better comfort levels and much longer lasting boiler and components due to lower temperatures. System is a bit more complex though.

No, not a benefit really.

@@UrbanPlumbers thanks.

You actually managed to get a RF version!?? Wow - I can’t even get wired ones anymore. Jay (My oiler) helped me out this weekend with some wired kits, but going next year it is not looking good for the supply of Vaillant controls.

@@UrbanPlumbers yeah they had one RF in stock and one vr71. He said he had about 8 wired in stock. They are worth a call, sent out same say coming tomorrow. They show as o it of stock on their site but a phone call always seems to show stock. They saved me on a plant room earlier in the year with the boiler, a wired 720 and a VR71 the customer actually went and got it all. It really is a shame that such a good set of controls is so hard to come by now. Keep up the good work, Chris Coppertop heating 🫡

Yes, true.

That LLH is an overkill. 2 x Ts would have done. But LLH looks better on socials 🤣🤣🤣

Too complicated for UK installer market 🤣

Maybe it's a carryover from other markets in the firmware.

If you're going on a picture of the boiler, then what I think you're looking at is that the system boiler sold here (Vaillant 6 series) is the same as the Combi (8 series), but with bits missing essentially [though isn't much cheaper.....], and so it still has the diverter valve body but there's a sort of blanking plug in the front rather than the diverter body.

No, it’s suitable for all houses

No, it’s a very good question. There is many factors to consider. The actual heat loss of the property, size of radiators, method of control (on/off, load comp, weather comp) and also external temp. If your house heat loss is 6kw then in theory the boiler would only stay at full 6kw in design conditions, meaning when it’s -2 outside. In practice however it would probably still cycle a bit. Any external temp higher than -2 the boiler modulates down and also cycles a bit. This means than when it’s 10c outside for example the property will only need around 2-3kw, so the boiler should consume 2/3kwh per hour or 20-30 per 10h then go to set back or lower 17-18c for the night. In real life when controlled correctly those figures are usually lower.

@@UrbanPlumbersRecently renovated house here, using a VCW 296/5-5. It's a system that can be used as a direct heater for hot water (without buffer tank) - and the central heating part goes to an underfloor heating, with a Vaillant Mixing Valve on a VR70, using weather compensation + temperature (no room compensation) My heatcurve is currently set to 0.25. I notice that when my underfloor heating is on, the boiler frequently has to cycle, like it can't get the heat fast enough through the valve - and shuts down due to max target temp reached. But my consumption is really low, so I reckon it's probably cycling due to low load, and the VCW 296 can't modulate deep enough.

Do you have a link for the mixing module and wiring center? Also do you know what gas boilers are compatible from WB range?

You have to use a sense 2 control and can have up to 4 circuits. MM100 wiring centre can come with the pump groups, very easy to fit. I would think all the current range and the cdi classic should be compatible

@@heatpump8566 but you also have to fit internal diverter or just 2 ports?

You don’t need the integral diverter valve. They have just put out a TB on it including part numbers and schematics etc

Yes you can have a set back temp but not a different curve. Different curve makes little sense really.

@Urban Plumbers Thanks for answering, I was thinking along the lines of on a weekday morning I'd only be awake at home for about an hour before leaving, so would maybe want it to come on a bit more aggressively to save having the heating on for for say two hours just to be warm for one hour etc, but maybe that doesn't make sense

@Urban Plumbers great channel by the way, it's definitely made me think a lot more about the variance in efficiency from a gas boiler

@@TheZippyMark no need for that. On weather comp you want the boiler ticking along all the time dropping to a set back at night.