also important to remember Jihyo herself said the members didn’t want to do cute stuff forever as they aged.

The drastic switch between aespas kr release and eng singles are baffling

One thing I think these companies fail to understand is that most kpop stans were drawn to kpop due to it's uniqueness from other music industries. I personally liked kpop because it was very different from the culture I grew up with and found it interesting and fun. And due to them changing and taking away this uniqueness,many fans are leaving because what they entered the fandom for is slowly fading away. Kpop is just trying hard to be something it's not and can never be. They are losing the fans they already have in attempt to appeal and get validation from the west. Such a bad marketing strategy ngl

I need "talk that talk" and "alcohol free" formula back

I don’t even know why they bother releasing English versions, half the reason I enjoy K-pop is because I have no idea what they’re even saying

I think Jihyo's single suffered from this alone. I think the rest of the album (minus Talk about it) is great- shows vulnerability, the musical direction, songwriting and composing aspect. Killing me good didn't reach the Korean audience and while having some noticeable moments outside of Korea, it didn't manage to show longevity. That's why Nayeon's Pop worked, cause it was unapologetically K-pop, from sound, lyrics, choreography point, colours mixed with nostalgic feelings towards early Twice.

I’ve been saying this for awhile, so I’ll narrow down my thoughts. Kpop companies can’t and shouldn’t change a groups concept of image to be more marketable in the west, like they do in The Jappanese market . People in the west reverted to Kpop has niche to fulfill spaces in-between other niches. Blackpink never had a concept change or that heavy of a sound change and that’s why they did and do so well in the west. Blackpink’s concept and performance style is also very suited to western audiences already. YG made them with all audiences in mind and you could see that with how they shoved Jennie and Lisa into the front of promotions and kept Rose and Jisoo in back, since Rose and Jisoo are suited to the Korean general public. Looking at what Lesserfim and Aespa at Coachella, they both didn’t have training in preforming with western audiences or stages and they got torn down. I think most people are leaving kpop because kpop companies are trying to hard to shove pandering to western audiences.

JYPe has always had this problem with integrating their artists with the western audiences, from fumbling wonder girls, hot and cold with Twice, completely losing the plot with Itzy and now shoot blindly with stray kids, for stray kids' sake i hope this single gives them what they want from it.

THANK YOU THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING. Like there's no Issue in promoting in the West or having English of their versions of their songs or even making English music, that's fine and a good marketing tactic. But my Issue personally is how much some Kpop groups try to emulate SO FIERCELY what's popular on the West Pop scene in the dryest way possible, to the point that it's giving nothing to really work with the music besides being Top 40 Pop radio music. As a Queen would say: "Where is the flavor in this. I taste nothing"

One thing that's not mentioned is that once fans lose interest in a group, it takes extra effort to get them back. When a song doesn't chart as well, it's not necessarily because of that song, it might be because of the last song or few songs. Even if they were to return to form, doesn't mean it'll chart as well. For a portion of the fan base, the momentum is gone, the enthusiasm has dwindled, and they're moving on. They'll still like TWICE but they'll be more interested in their old work, rather than paying attention to their new work. When a legacy group has new releases, it can't be viewed in isolation, there is context.

The problem isn't with westernization or english songs. The problem comes from fans that can't handle the fact that these artists need to be artists and want to try new sounds, new genres, and new themes. It's natural for many musicians to want to step out of their comfort zone and do something different. To many fans, if they don't like the song or theme or sound....they will completely give up or tear down the group instead of thinking "I don't vibe with this...maybe I will for the next one". They also don't buy the albums and listen to all the songs to hear how they have experimented and how they still stayed the same. Fans also want to keep idols and groups in their debut mindset and forget that these idols and artists are growing up around different sounds and just growing up period. Groups are supposed to stay in their little boxes that fans have kept them in and not let them out. That is the main problem.

I couldn't figure out why I wasn't enjoying Set Me Free or One Spark as much, and this makes a lot of sense.

Did you just forget about the feels? The chokehold the feels had on the west should be studied. They were playing the feels in the CLUBS like twice needs to go back to doing more like the feels everyone was eating her uppppp

I never realized the translation aspect of their songs and how that effects the effort put into the lyrics which is a shame

i personally believe that western audiences dont even really WANT these groups to become to hyper-westernised. like part of the reason groups like TWICE and BTS got traction in western markets was because their sound wasn't like your Ariana Grandes and Taylor Swifts. They were them! And frankly, JYP should realise we fell in love with TWICE back when TWICE was not even trying to be a global girl group. Their identity is not incompatible with global audiences, it very much is IMHO. TWICE releasing English-language singles and translations is inherently fine, but what JYP, TWICE's team, and TWICE themselves need to do is evaluate how much pf a role pandering plays in lyrical content. I think the best course of action is to either simply just write the Korean-language tracks to their full power, translatability be damned, and then continue writing good English singles, OR, balance it out. Kpop groups should not sacrifice their identity to pander to the western hemisphere, especially since it's clear that western audiences enjoy these groups even if they have a very Korea-aimed strategy.

One thing I would add is that I'm personally a little sick of pre release singles. I tend to like the songs themselves a lot, so that's not the problem. But I don't even usually associate the pre release with the album by the time it actually drops. If you want to make multiple MV's, I'm more than fine with that. But I think pre releases tend to highlight any lacking cohesion in the actual comeback and fuels comparison about what is actually "the best" and "deserving" of the majority's attention.

when you mention set me free i can’t help but think about how we need more songs like girls like us

Not choujimi feeding us very well these days, no complaints from me

For me I look at it as a tale of two methods: emulating western sounds after a group establishes themselves, and debuting with western soundscapes and promotional methods already in place. This is why to me, western promoted tracks from BTS and Twice sound so removed from their other songs. Blackpink and NewJeans debuted with the plan to both make music and promote with the west in mind. I think you could make the argument BTS debuted with a very western hip-hop sound but I would disagree, their production even for 2013-ish was quite dated, I still love No More Dream though.

Basically what he tryna say is that Alcohol free is that girl and he is right 🫂

I think that Twice’s signature sound really fits what is popular with both Korean and western markets right now. They should try to take advantage of that. Twice still has so much that they can achieve. They just need to select title tracks that are true to them as a group. I think that Twice can make music that is both mature, fits the Korean and western markets, and still has their signature sound. A really great example of this is The Feels. The Feels stays true to their signature Twice sound, but is more mature than their past releases. With You-th is such a strong album. All of the songs follow the same distinct sound in my opinion. One Spark is the only song that doesn’t really fit the rest of the album. In an interview the members said that One Spark was supposed to be a title track for a previous album, but they ended up not using it. I think JYPE needs to be making title tracks specifically for Twice instead of using rejected songs that were supposed to be on previous albums. Now that the Twice members have more of a voice in the direction that their music is going in they definitely seem to want to lean more into a mature sound. I think they should continue making music that makes them happy and that they feel comfortable performing now that they are in this stage of their career.

Honestly, twice can actually fit the current western music market very well with few subtle changes in their discography, they dont have to go overboard. Look at a song like esspresso, isnt this something that twice will pull off easily. West has become way more open to the soft girl blush cheeks and pretty women asthetics and twice rather than aceepting that are going towards the powerful and rebel girl asthetic with their music. Cupid, magnetic, super shy is the kind of sound and asthetic that will be perfect for twice. the coquttee trend and the pink obsession paired with soft vocals and bright concept is all twice needs. Idk what jyp is aiming for twice in the west but the formula is right there. Alcohol free is the concept they should have gone for, that mixed with latin and rnb and a little bit afrobeat would be something people would love from them. instead we get one spark and set me free. I despise them,(not the song, the releases). tzuyu, sana, nayeon are the kind of people who would fit the elegant soft girl side, plzz jyp do something.

I really hope Nayeon’s upcoming album doesn’t suffer from this and that they keep the Kpop aspect that they had in her first comeback

you put exactly into words what is my problem with what i like to call musical "degeneration" from twice and other groups. to me, all of their releases after 'more & more' seemed like unispired versions of their overall identity and it only got more apparent with time. the difference between japanese releases vs western releases to me it's that when a group drops a japanese single it's made clear prior to the release date this is part of a different universe within the group's sonical landscape, while with western releases, more often than not, the shift is portraited like something natural to their musical identity when it's clearly the opposite in most cases. i'm still pissed off at sm til this day for trying to convince everybody that 'life's too short' was a natural turn of events on aespa's catalog, as if it's something that the fans that liked the aespacore concept and metallic sounds where looking for, rather than a lame attempt at reaching a broader western audience.

western audiences went to k-pop for the k-pop sound, not for more western songs.

They don't realize westerners like being in niches. Not a lot of people want it mainstream. I like the music in korean. None of the western kpop fans i know ever are extra excited over an english release

One spark is definitely an odd one. A friend of mine pointed out that it sounds like it could be a Japanese single and it clicked!

I hope that twice ends up going for music for title tracks that is more like their b-sides. I love their b sides and i genuinely believe if they stop looking for specific viral sounding songs fit for specific audiences and go for their favorite songs in general in the albums not just to perform but the best sounding

I would say (g)-idle is another pretty good example of K-pop groups with a big international fan base but promote heavily in Korea and whose songs aren’t impacted by westernization (unless someone is a xenophobe then yes soyeons not perfect English will bother them and yes they’ll talk about it relentlessly on twitter)

9:40 BTS „lost the plot“ in 2020 and 2021 BECAUSE it was NOT THE PLAN to be active as a group after MOTS 7 for a few years. When you really look into it, it makes so much sense that MOTS 7 was supposed to be BTS‘ last album („goodbye album“) before their inevitable break during their military enlistment. Every major year end award show performance of 2019 was a throwback to the beginnings of BTS‘ discography. They performed at MAMA 2019 N.O. and we‘re bulletproof pt. II and at MMA 2019 boy in luv (followed by boy with luv as the second half of the coin) and referenced almost every old title track during their performance (comeback trailer of school luv affair and O!RUL8,2?, no more dream, danger, I need u, fire, save me, fake love, N.O.). MOTS 7 features 3 early comeback trailer in their songs (intro persona: school luv affair, interlude shadow: dark&wild, outro ego: debut trailer) and ON (N.O. reversed) should become the peak of BTS’ spectacular dance choreography performances. MOTS 7 was made to be a full circle moment as the closure of the on going MOTS era and with the planned world tour the grand finale of the „first chapter“. CLEARLY BTS DID NOT initially PLAN for another „plot concept“ afterwards/beyond that. Then the pandemic happened and it was unclear when and if they could go on tour. So they waited. But they were in this weird transition period not knowing when they can go on tour and Jin having to go to the military in December of 2020. So on the one hand nobody at that time could predict how long Covid would prohibit in person concerts (weeks or months and the predictions frequently changed), but on the other hand the estimated time period as a full member group was limited till Jin‘s enlistment in December 2020. These few months didn’t allow to develop and establish a completely new concept for an album series like BTS prior work (usually created for a time frame of 2-3 years). Of course, in retrospective you know they stayed together as a group for two more years, but at this time nobody would have thought. And they couldn’t have stayed together for two more years if dynamite had not become this successful and the Korean government had not decided to pass the new law which allowed Jin to postpone his enlistment. So they tried to make the best out of the situation and released this fun disco dance track they were sent entirely in English. And it exploded. After that they made an introspective self produced album in Korean. I think after the success of dynamite they thought „okay let‘s give it a try and see how far we can get“ with this new dimension of global success. They had this unexpected time period where they couldn’t go on tour and suffered under the lack of in person interactions with their fans while performing. Imo they didn‘t want to enlist like „this“ during the pandemic. Then the Korean government passed the „BTS law“ and Jin didn’t have to enlist in 2020. So they had to (and COULD) wait as OT7 until things got better and they could perform in person in front of Armys for a last time AS A GROUP before leaving to the military individually. Therefore IT MAKES PERFECTLY SENSE for them at the time to release one or two single tracks (they want to do right now or maybe think will do well with its simple but catchy and happy pop/dance vibe in a depressing pandemic) and collaborate with other artists they like for individual songs instead of setting up a long term album series project with well thought out concepts needed to be build up over time like BTS usually did/does. Because they could not plan that far ahead and wanted/had to be able to adopt quickly to changing circumstances (like maybe be able to go on tour after all which sadly didn’t happen though). And they closed the „first chapter“ with a spectacular grammy performance, in person concerts and an anthology album and the Busan YTC „festival“ in 2022. And in the current „second chapter“ all members are making music they personally love and want to do. And imo BTS DIDN‘T LOOSE their essence or CORE IDENTITY. BTS didn’t have a singular signature style to begin with. They were ALWAYS evolving and trying new styles and just are a very VERSATILE GROUP. But I think you can always feel the „BTS essence“ in all of it. But there are always certain fans who became army in a specific era or favor a specific side, style or sound of BTS. And these fans always want more of there preferred version of BTS and maybe get scared (?) that they won‘t get that anymore in the future. These are the ones who say „Oh BTS have changed and I like the old BTS, I want the old BTS back“. But what „the old BTS“ is varies: some mean the old school hip hop „no more dream“ like BTS, and others mean the „dope and fire“ BTS or HYYH BTS, wings BS&T BTS, spring day/ you never walk alone BTS, love yourself BTS or MOTS BTS etc. BTS can appeal to so many different audiences with different preferences, but not everybody will like everything. You can like the rap and hip hop style, the emotional ballads, the pop songs, the edm tracks, the more „happy“ „party“ vibe, the darker vibe, the nostalgic vibe, the large scale dance choreographies with 50 backup dancers, the detailed choreos, the fun choreos or the vocal performances. Other groups (like for example Blackpink and Twice who are mentioned in the video) have a more „narrow“ signature concept and style of music. They also have of course variations and different types of songs, but all of it should fit to the general vibe and concept. So the fans you attract are more likely to like all of their music (and not say they don’t like the music anymore because the style stays the same). This means the fans might also disapprove with a „drastic“ style change they‘re not used to (which is what is happening with twice at the moment imo) But I don‘t think BTS has become „too westernized“. They are allowed to try different styles. That doesn’t means they will follow this path forever. And I think it shows. BTS did not only release disco pop tracks in English since dynamite. They released a self produced album in Korean called BE, a classic Japanese style ballad named film out, a Korean ballad with my youth, a R&B ballad with yet to come (resembling 2013/14 BTS) and with run bts a perfect (indescribable) unique BTS-esque song (in Korean). From the solo projects we got a wonderful range of different styles and songs suiting to each member. We got Jungkook with an English album targeting the western market that worked for the domestic and global market as well, Jimin with an (in house self produced) album, semi marketed to a western as well as a domestic audience which succeeded the expected outcome in the US, Jin with an English ballad written by Chris Martin that suits Jin’s style perfectly, as well as Hobi (primarily self produced) and Tae with albums directed at specific music genre fans and not primarily created to appeal to the general public (with no collabs), Yoongi with an (primarily self produced) Korean rap album and a title track featuring traditional Korean instruments and RM who featured an internationally unknown but domestic well acclaimed Korean rock singer on his title track (album primarily self produced as well). All of their musically choices suit the individual members perfectly and are the result of them experimenting with new sounds and styles as well as pursuing the music they want to do, imo. Disclaimer: I know the video is NOT about BTS and armys always spam at every opportunity with their opinions about BTS but if you mention BTS, I can voice my opinion and argue with the statement(s) made in the video. I originally clicked on the video because of Twice (I really like them as a group and their music) and I would mostly agree with the analysis. But as an army I have more of an „expertise“ on BTS than Twice (therefore I clicked on the video to learn more about Twice) and imo the case for BTS is a little different than for other groups like the ones mentioned in the video. Imo (not really an expert so not a qualified opinion here) Twice‘s current strategy is not bad. I like some songs and maybe they will release songs with a more „classic“ iconic Twice sound again in the future as well. Not everyone has to like every song all the time. Trying different sounds and styles is nothing bad and it doesn’t mean that they lost their core identity (just yet). They can go back to it. Maybe after a few comebacks you could say they lost their initial core identity. As of now it could be a phase of trying new styles and grow as a group and artists. Twice gets older, too. Maybe they want to look for a more mature concept or something like that (or follow current trends to not become „outdated“). And there is nothing wrong about that. They will get new fans who like the new concept and „older fans“ still have the past discography. Nobody is taking it away. But „the older fans“ are also allowed to voice their opinion and wish for their favored version of Twice. Imo you can make good music (as a K-pop artist) in English and Korean, you just have to make the effort and have the vision to create something good. Maybe the problem is like pointed out in the video, that the recent Korean tracks are written and produced with less effort than the English tracks. If this is the case, I would agree that this can create a serious problem for their balance as a group. Maybe the solution is like pointed out in the video to produce songs that are in itself complete and good and not try to make it work in both languages. Thanks for the video!

As a Blackpink fan I don't find Twice's westernization as an exactly bad thing. Yeh, it's a bit selfish, but from my point of view it's sort of salvation. Biggest problem of BP is lack of content. 28+- songs in 7 years and almost zero of other group activities is laughable. Yes it's part of strategy, but its not enaught to ... stay conected. There are other groups which try to lure us away with similar concept, but mostly they are newbies, so I don't find them as interesting as older idols. So when I look at Twice 5th world tour concert (Furuoka day one for example) I get everithing what I'm looking for. Amazing show, talented and gorgeous idols with with a tangible background in their prime and catchy songs.

Imo as an army i think that the context of the english trilogy is very important to note before criticizing bts's "westernization" it wasnt really an attempt to become big but actually a gift given to them none of the 3 english songs were written with the members. Its also fair to understand that their plans were kinda thrown out with the pandemic (tour and then enlistment which ended up not happening like they planned) they were so burnt out and just wanted to push out something happy after BE

I don't agree with the idea that translation is a problematic aspect of westernization. Companies could if they want shift the meaning of the lyrics during the translation process or they can actually try to communicate something deeper with the help of professional translators. Great works of literature have been translated to and from different languages so I dont see how this can't happen with a kpop song with a more specific message. I think the sound is the main problem. The western music market has preferences that do not align with those of the korean kpop music market. This means that some kpop acts will change their sound too drastically to appeal to the west. Other kpop groups like new jeans and blackpink to a certain degree debut with just the right sound and can so more easily appeal to the west and other parts of the world.

I do want to add that weirdly what they've done has worked. I've heard Set Me Free and Moonlight Sunrise in Target, the mall, and in restaurants. While I agree that Twice isn't doing their concept change great and honestly it feels like a lot of kpop companies don't seem to understand what actually works in a Western market, it's interesting to note that Twice did pretty successfully branch into the Western market

The entire concept of kpop is inspired by western pop, westernisation was always going to happen and it just so happens to be happening now ! 💗

isn't all of kpop- at its core-westernized?

By the way, lyrically I’ve always thought One Spark was about youth and wanting to keep that feeling of youthfulness forever. Don’t let the “spark” die. Which makes sense with the name of the album. I don’t think it’s as vague as you say.

Talk that talk and alcohol free were PERFECT releases for me. Honestly I wish div3 would realize that onces like twice because of their unique sound, and those 2 releases were a genius mix between twice’s authentic image and their maturation from cutesy aegyo songs. If we wanted western songs we’d just listen to western artists :/

your video topics are always so interesting😭

i definitely felt this way as a moa who got into txt because of temptation, only to have that album followed up with Do it like that and then chasing that feeling. Freefall has some really good b-sides besides dilt but it got completely eclipsed by how generic ctf was as a song and mv. I’m glad that tomorrow was a more korean focused cb

i love watching your vids (even when i don't entirely agree with what's being said) bc you present your point so succinctly and calmly. it's refreshing to not have a k-pop youtuber screaming their opinion bc they feel that's the only way to make us think the same way you do and you're always respectful about the groups you're talking about. i agree with taste of love being primed for west promotions without maybe intending to but it might be bc it's my fave EP from them lol

this was such an in depth and accurate analysis omg i loved this and this makes so much sense !!

I think it is crazy to have an English pre-release and Korean title track but then make an English version of the Korean title track... Like the effort is lost on me especially when neither of the English songs were able to chart or do numbers streaming-wise. If you're gonna sacrifice quality, concept, and art for numbers & popularity you should go all out for promotions. Instead, they let both versions fizzle out only promoting the vague Korean title track on music shows which also did not do numbers. Something needs to change marketing-wise because the potential "Set me free" and "I Got You" had so much potential. I don't think BTS lost their plot because they never had any kind of concept. The only thing I can think of is that people liked their darker depressing meaning songs and did not like their positive upbeat meaning songs which is just in the eye of the holder. Their English singles still possessed meaning plus they changed their concept, look, and sound each comeback. Some people can never be satisfied in every era people said they preferred the previous BTS. In my opinion, 3 English singles cannot rupture a long discography of Korean singles especially when the fruit of the albums remains high quality and cohesive. In Twice's case, their main problem is promotion and connecting with their audience so many people did not even know Twice had a comeback. They only know that twice has been on tour for a long time. Also all of BTS' English songs were heavily promoted in South Korea and Japan as well as the US, they charted insanely well & hold records their Korean songs don't. It is just a matter of people hating on BTS with their 3 English singles they did not really sacrifice anything and remained unaffected in their career. The English singles even gave them a huge boost of popularity and recognition that extended to their Korean songs.

For me bts never changed cuz they never stuck to a sound. You can see that from the beginning of their career, they did a hip hop trilogy, then they changed to a more youthful sound with hyyh trilogy, then R&B in the love Yourself trilogy, and then map of the soul: 7, persona, they were trying for something darker, and then they did a more pop sound in dynamite and BE, which so many people forget it was in the middle of two English singles butter and dynamite and then came ptd. They never changed cuz they never stuck to one sound, they were experiencing with their music the whole time. Bts themselves said that they weren't going to release the three English singles and BE. Map of the soul:7 was supposed to be the last album before enlisting in the army but then covid came, that's when they got dynamite and released it. But even after the success of those three songs, i think they themselves felt lost and began to question their music group identity(we can see that too in map of the soul: 7 , in black swan) as they didn't expect this success. And i think the company played a big role in this, like after they saw the success of dynamite they pushed them to release more( not sure if this true, but come on, it's hype that were talking about). And after that they released proof which had only 3 new songs, but those songs were like" what old bts felt like" according to kpop fans.

Yep. My biggest problem with SMF and One Spark is to me personally they're so boring and I think that's by design to appeal to the West. There's little to no concept. You can be mature and still interesting. But I think the company knows the group has achieved all they can in Korea and has now settled for releasing elevator music they hope will be played on US radio lol

Kpop has always been westernized lol the whole inspiration for kpop came from western music

As someone who only properly got into Kpop in 2022, I have a bit of a different take on BTS and TWICE. With BTS, I casually liked Boy With Luv a lot when it was on the radio (I also liked Halsey's voice on the chorus so I was exactly the target demo) after never really liking BTS' original sound when some friends played it for me a couple times. It was a pristine work of pop perfection, and I think that applies to Fancy and I Can't Stop Me as well. I think the thing with westernization is largely the same challenge with any sound change. If you're doing something new, your chances of misstepping are higher and segments of your audience won't like the new sound. That's why I think I'm not a big fan of Butter, and it's why JYP has also struggled to get Itzy a GP hit as well despite no translation dilemma. I do agree that simplicity for the sake of translation is a mistake in the case of Set Me Free. I think the solution would've been to just commit to Moonlight Sunrise though as the main title track. I think a lot of groups have made the mistake of too many title tracks the past couple years. Even if Set Me Free had better lyrics, it's still kind of in the middle between Korean and international tastes. I think a big difference between groups like Blackpink compared to TWICE is that Blackpink started with international friendly sound, but also that Blackpink doesn't have enough songs to need to make that much of a sound change. I think TWICE was already facing diminishing returns with Talk That Talk and they can't go back to the sound of Look At Me anymore. Ultimately I do think TWICE is kind of at their legacy act stage if their careers. They're not getting the Korean GP back, so they should've committed to Moonlight Sunrise as the title track with Set Me Free as perhaps a promoted b-side without the pressure of having an English version and needing to be catchy for streaming. That's just my personal preference though. I'm sure others will have their own tastes.

I'm so glad you made a video about this. You have explained it the simplest way. You're very articulate.

Wait. How does BTS “suffer” from “Westernization”? Note that I don’t consider their English trilogy as “westernization” but as their gap year project. Since their cancelled Map Of The Soul (MOTS) world tour 2020, and their album Map Of The Soul: Seven was supposed to be their last album, and their last activities, before leaving for the military. BTS blew up in the mainstream and globally AFTER their English trilogy, the point in time some kpop fans considered to be the start of their “westernization”. A starting point many kpop fans can’t seem to agree on, as they confused misalignment of personal tastes to real world degradations of integrity or quality. I, as a mainstream music consumer, see no characteristically different qualities in BTS overall discography from 2013 - 2022, that is significant enough to be called a complete turn around. Especially when compared to most Kpop groups. While at the same time, BTS produced a significantly unique musical product compared to the rest of Kpop. Which is always what people seem to pick on whenever they see fit. But they been they way they have been musically since 2013? Again, as someone new to Kpop, I am perplexed at what I see as an overstatement of their “suffering from westernization” conversations because I simply don’t see “suffering” in the growth of their fandoms. Which makes me think that this conversation touches on something more sensitive, and it has nothing to do with music: IDENTITY. And not that of the artists, but of the consumers. What do you think?

Respectfully, why is BTS mentioned here? They haven’t released a full album since 2020 and have been on military hiatus since 2022. Their solo works are incredibly diverse. Having three English songs during the pandemic isn’t a track record or Westernization. They’ve pushed their Korean music just as hard starting in 2017. This is a weird take.

I'm so glad this video exists. I thought I was just growing out of kpop but nah my fave groups sound really did change.

Wow, you've managed to so eloquently talk about a problem I've kind of been struggling to formulate for a while. This is so extremely well thought out and informative.

i think another important point is styling, both set me free and one spark seem to just follow current trends and don't really have a specific direction (one spark specially, it feels like the only outfits that really suit the mv concept are the red and black outfits and the sparkly silver and black outfits that weren't used during promotions). this was a problem for twice before they became global (with eras like yes or yes and likey), but when you have most groups following western fashion trends and your concept isn't strong enough to innovate on them, you end up with outfits with expensive flashy pieces that don't really fit with the rest of the collections so it just looks messy and eventually will be very forgettable. i love both set me free and one spark and their albums respectively, but as eras i think they will be always outshined by their english singles.

i feel as if people ignore what bts says on purpose because they never “lost the plot” as they have explained MULTIPLE times about the reasons for their 3 English releases 😭 They’ve always been a group who’ve changed up their sound and concept, it’s nothing new. The three english songs weren’t even originally planned but due to covid and the changes it had on their future plans before their military services, they wanted to connect with the American fans more especially since the cancellation of their tour affected them majorly. MOTS 7 came first then covid hit.. BE (dynamite was literally the only English album) an album that goes into detail about many of their struggles including their time in covid (anxiety, frustration, and powerlessness). Genres and messages that they’ve ALWAYS spoke on. An album fully in Korean. Butter was almost like the continuation of Dynamite. Then, came permission to dance, their mini tour for permission to dance which led to their analogy album. An analogy album that closes off on the first chapter of their career before they head off to the military and lead on to the next chapter in 2025. Btw, that’s why they are releasing a new album that connects with HYYH concept/story next year. They have never lost their korean identity just because they did English tracks. I feel like most kpop stans only go into that narrative because of how huge those songs became. They don’t just release for the sake of releasing, there’s always a reason and maybe everybody should start searching before developing a huge entitlement on this on-going banter on their English singles. Little mention: There’s definitely more groups releasing English songs and going into a different sound sometimes but I never understood the wrong doing of it? Most of these groups like Twice, don’t want to put in a bottle and also, as grown ups, they don’t want to get into a particular sound and image that y’all keep trying to shove down their throats lol It doesn’t take away anything, it’s all music at the end of the day.. I feel like this another reason why the kpop community has become almost overly-critical about everything, nobody just enjoys the music and leaves it at that sometimes

i love twice. i liked them in their aegyo-core era cuz the bubblegum pop was just infectious, but i fell in love with their transition to fancy up until talk and talk. this era was also the time when i started listening to their albums as a whole along with the title track. for some reason the latest two releases mentioned in the video just hasn’t connected with me at all, and it’s sad cuz i love the group but i’m not enjoying the music as much. i haven’t been able to fully listen to the albums as well since the title track just doesn’t entice me to dive deeper. hopefully jyp gets a grip cuz why waste their renewal with just okay releases.

Twice are powerhouses in the industry even tho their new music isn’t popular anymore. That’s what they have it’s a loyal fan base. I don’t think twice are really aiming to do something new like they did 2018-2020, it’s exactly the same for bts

funnily enough, in reference to your video on le sserafim's live performances, i feel like westernization is one of the main reasons why their performance at coachella failed. the musical trends that le sserafim draw from, particularly their most recent music, are not ones that easily translate to a kpop performance style without modification. plenty of kpop idols are mid or even below average singers, but when balanced with the maximalized production of the instrumental and complex choreography, it makes up for where vocals may lack. a lot of the songs that are considered quintessential kpop have this quality of spectacle about them that's almost theatrical. im pretty sure giselle of aespa once said something along the lines of "the reason music videos and performances are so important is that you're really only getting half the story from only streaming the song." it's really similar to how pop songs often can't function as musical theatre numbers without modifying the arrangement, because musical theatre numbers are intended to tell part of a story, so they heavily emphasize the lyrics and the instrumental being reflective of the emotion the character is feeling. it's why people have panned Disney's Wish so hard. the songs just feel like regular pop songs without any effort put into having the music tell a story. le sserafim's discography, by contrast to typical kpop, is very minimalistic in order to reflect current music trends in r&b/pop. the issue with that is when you combine kpop-trained vocalists with a style of music (r&b) that has a minimalistic instrumental on PURPOSE in order to emphasize the vocals, you end up with le sserafim's vocals sticking out like a sore thumb. going back to the musical theatre comparison, it's like hearing a broadway vocalist like Idina Menzel sing a pop song, the inflection and overacted emotion she puts into it feels so corny and out of place in your typical pop song because it's not intended to tell a story on a live stage the way theatre is. if we're going further and further into the comparisons of kpop to musical theatre, i feel like blackpink works for the same reasons that a modern musical like hamilton works, because while both play on western pop/rap soundscapes, they're still playing on the conventions of their mother medium, ie blackpink utilizing typical kpop structure in both the instrumental and the general song structure itself and hamilton still using theatre storytelling. i don't think it's a coincidence that eve psyche and the bluebeard's wife is one of le sserafim's breakway hits, because it's probably their most kpop-y sounding song to date. while i know people tried to make aespa comparisons with that song i honestly think le sserafim would be better off with that type of music, because it's not that their vocals as a whole group are remarkably bad by kpop standards, they're just bad for the type of music HYBE keeps making them do.

I guess why JYPE is pushing retro-synth pop sound to promote to the west is it's because they mastered it. They started from I can't stop which was a massive hit. Followed by Baby Blue Love, The Feels (well accepted by the western audience) to SET ME FREE. I just thought that it may work that way. To promote the group with the sound they mastered and the sound that may appeal to the western audience and TREND at the same time. (2020-2021 was the year of synth-80s pop). That's just my analyzation. hehe...

this is such an interesting commentary concept! I think that, unlike japanese releases, westernization of even one album in a group's discography will always be a huge erisk at the very least. I look forward to seeing the longevity of these groups' identities changes

All K-pop music - from the beginning until today - is Western. The end.

I get what you’re saying and I agree on all parts except the part where Set Me Free and One Spark don’t add to Twices identity. To me they completely glue their identity together. Because as they mature, they want to be more free in all they do and stick together with that one spark of passion and friendship. I think those songs are more personal ❤

i'm speaking more on bts since you covered more about the direction of twice's music but it's important to note that bts themselves knew that the direction of their music as a group was getting murky following their 3 consecutive english singles (putting aside BE, a korean album that they didn't do physical promotions for) especially considering that they didn't do a whole lot of solo work before that (aside from their rap line). that's exactly why they decided to each do solo work right as they went to enlist one by one. (if you're an army, you'd know i'm referring to the festa video of 2022) so we can't fully tell what their music will sound like when they come back after 2025 because they haven't actually released a regular korean album as a group since 2021 (and their solo work is not the best basis bc well, if you followed them all, they're all so drastically different).

Can I just say I love how balanced and reasonable your videos are. kpop fandoms are so polarised nowadays, and its refreshing to hear such reason and nuance

I like this! I think that this has some parallels to me as the (absurd) complaint I see online that English is taking over Kpop. Generally I think the amount of English, while higher because of English songs, hasn't nessisarily changed (in the decade I've been listening) much. What has changed that you hit on is many English songs in popular groups feeling out of place in their discography. It's the out of place western influence that sticks out. And i think there is confirmation bias present with all the examples you gave. I think aespa is an interesting example. Because some of their English songs feel v out of place but then i think of their tetris song and that feels so them.

LOVE THIS VID IDEA. GREAT VID

I loved this! And Twice was the perfect example for this kinda of discussion😄 Great video!

i never really thought about the westernization aspect of set me free and one spark, but it does make sense. i guess that explains why my expectations are much higher for the upcoming japanese album; it’s unlikely we would have any songs like those two and they would most likely still stick to the concepts and sounds that have made and kept them popular in the japanese market, which isn’t a guarantee anymore with korean releases. i’m hoping jype realizes soon how much twice is struggling from losing the quirkiness and uniqueness of their feminine and pop-y sound in exchange for music that emulates trends in the west.

I liked your analysis very much and agree with every word

i really disagree with the notion the last 2 english singles dont go with their respective albums. I thought they fit thematically and sonically but i guess im in the minority.

I have to get out of my feelings for this topic, and I agree definitely with you, Choujimi. It's as if they don't know how to connect their message and concept as group to English in a digestible manner for both western and eastern fans. It's always one or the other. I LOVED moonlight sunrise and I, as a westerner can definitely see it's not your standard Twice song. I definitely think if done in a boring or incorrect manner, westernization can be bad for K-pop, but if done correctly it can bring a butt-load of new fans.

THIS. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT BUT I COULDN'T FIND THE WORDS. I love twice with all my heart, i've been a fan since i can't stop me and i love them sm, but idk, lately i've been having a strange feeling abt them, not that their songs are bad, but they seem to be empty, and that's something that is rlly strange for me because the last thing I'd feel with a twice song before that was emptiness... I love them but idk, it's not that one spark is bad, it isn't, but there's no flavour, differently from icsm, m&m, fancy, etc.

I don't disagree with this general argument, but it seems strange not to discuss The Feels more: it was their first song only released in english, and the amount of times they performed it on western talk shows and such almost mimicked BTS around 2017-2018. Is the darker image westernisation, or are the western releases used as a safe area for Twice experimenting with their concept and sound as they mature? BTS I think is much clearer: aside from covid-related 'losing the plot', they were trying to see if changing to this overly poppy sound for their English releases would increase American radio-play and maybe bag them a grammy. It was pretty clear from their interviews.

although i agree with what you said, there’s a lot of issues black pink have. almost all of their title tracks are the same concepts and the lyrics are so incredibly similar to their previous songs- it’s almost as if they’re scared to branch out. though i know bp fans love their bad-girl concept, i think it’s stumped their growth as artists. when they do come together as a group, which is rarity these days but isn’t necessarily their fault, we can expect the same music and the same concept. nothing new nothing fresh.

i think another huge problem is that companies just play it way too safe with western releases. some of the best kpop music and concepts are the ones that are a little bit quirky, fun, unexpected, or off the wall. kpop HAS to innovate to grow, because the industry is so fast-paced and fans are always looking for the next big thing. and western releases are never anything new or innovative, because they dont want to startle western audiences, or give them something too unfamiliar. that's why songs like one spark, dynamite, ice cream and numerous others just fall flat. they're basic, predictable, and just somewhat boring. they're trying way to hard to get radio play, and that means they never feel innovative, because they're just copying the western sound.

You’re sooo right about Twice. I hope that jyp listens. Thank you so much for speaking about this.

I'm glad this is being addressed. The releases after "Feel Special" worried me a lot, and now I realize why they are the way they are. "More and More" was fine but I didn't love it. "Eyes Wide Open" is easily my least favorite Twice release. "Alcohol Free" was actually pretty good, but "Formula of Love" was a huge relief! I thought they were done making music like that forever 😭 The releases after that have been fine but honestly haven't gotten me really excited, although I do love "I Got You", it feels like it belongs in the same category as "One in a Million" and "Feel Special". But one huge change is I feel like they have lost their sense of humor in their songs, I miss that more than anything.

Great video as always

Idk why yall are hating so much. I love twice and jihyo’s english vers.

This makes so much sense, I was really let down by set me free and one spark never comes to my mind when I want to listen to twice however I do listen to both English releases and b sides from these albums. Twice has managed to build a western fan base even before these two albums and JYPE needs to recognise this and stick to making music that is true to them

yesss, i don't want half-assed english versions of kpop songs (unless they are done well like Cupid) as for me, the apeal of most kpop songs is that i can focus solely on the music, the tone, the danceability, etc. i sometimes want songs that make my head empty, make me forget/ zone out from my real life. not every band/ group needs to have lyrics that need to be deciphered by English professors lol

While I found Set Me Free and the album Ready To Be very underwhelming, I feel like the With YOU-th album is much better in terms of balancing the core of TWICE while appealing to the west. Promoting I Got You and One Spark together really showed the bond, time, and care TWICE have for each other. I will say i have still not listened to the English version of One Spark and generally for most kpop groups don't listen to English versions of songs

i agree with everything you’ve said in the vid, like there is absolutely nothing wrong with making english versions of songs, but when they don’t make sense or when you have to guess what the meaning actually is, that’s when most ppl don’t end up getting into kpop, or they may even lose fans because of it, but knowing myself, i’m a hard stan for twice, and i don’t think it’ll change 😂

One spark and I got you are actually really good lol

bro get out of my head, i swear you're somehow perfectly verbalizing my thoughts in literally every video you post and it's scaring me 😭

Wow, I never think like that because I love Twice's album lately cuz they have like a mature sound. But it's interesting to have a different opinion with Twice's enjoyers. (sorry my bad english)

Somehow, you completed part of my thoughts about this theme. I don't think Twice lost quality in their vocals, image, even their sound. Of course those aspects changed, but i don't think in a bad way. But their lyrics did, i totally agree with the part of "going to nowhere". Some Bsides of the albums has better lyrics than the title tracks, with clear messages, and of different kinds of them, like Crazy Stupid Love in Ready To Be, or You Get Me, Rush or Bloom in the last album, and i love them. With One Spark and Set me Free, i loved the music, i loved Twice's voices, interpretation and choreography, but i didn't feel anything with the lyrics. Instead, with moonlight sunrise and i got you was different for me, and i think you gave me the explanation to what i felt. Someday in the past i read an article of one US magazine talking about Twice, saying that they didn't have to abandon their core to like in USA, and i agree with that, i mean, i started listening to kpop to hear something different, because i don't like the actual pop music in my region (LATAM), neither the pop music of USA, and i think Twice's music is still different in this way. I hope it will change in the future, i still liking a lot their music, and i don't think it will easily change, but it doesn't make me unconscious about it.

Hmmm, the thing I find frustrating about JYPE'd new tactic with the pre-release English singles to a Korean comeback is that it boils down to JYPE trying to killing two birds with one stone/doing two separate things at the same time. 🤔 One thing I ruminate about is what would've been if TWICE's English releases had followed a similar tactic with their Japanese releases where they drop 1 single with 2 tracks that have a strong cohesive messaging and also so they can concentrate their promotion and schedule to one audience instead of two almost opposite groups. I also appreciate how TWICE's Japanese tracks follow a different narrative than their Korean discography and slightly more experimental in sound even with more aegyo-esk Japenese songs from their early career. I mean compare One More Time to Candy Pop and Wake Me Up and they are quite different sonically and this difference only grows when you listen to Breakthrough and Kura Kura and Perfect World and Doughnut and Hare Hare. I think in some ways having separate comebacks for English and Korean would help slow the bleeding and blurring between the two worlds. I also find it interesting that Queen of Hearts was not a prerelease for B1&2 despite it being an English track, but that might have been because of the timing of the contract renewal more so than anything. I think with FoL, with it being a full album and with some Bsides being in all English, JYPE could have also promoted this album more in the west with it being a larger project and followed a similar pattern for their next full album... The downside though is it would result either less releases to make up for the more resources, time, and man power used for two projects. Also, possible less cohesive albums cause Moonlight Sunrise and I Got You undeniably add to the overall narrative of their respective albums, so if they weren't there then the RTB and With Youth would feel more incomplete. But I also dwell too much in the What Ifs and Should've Beens... Idk, I have a lot of thoughts and no clear conclusion or possible solution to pull TWICE out of this identity limbo. 😕 With the way things are now, I think I've gotten used to filling in the holes or shifting around the inconsistencies in the lyrics and concepts to interpret the albums in a way that makes sense to me. ☻

I don't think the lyrics of set me free did anything. I think that's a hot take. There was definitely a change in the sound and the aesthetics with Ready to Be. And I think people recognized that first before deep diving the lyrics. At the end of the day, it was a departure away from the sound that made them popular, from the sound that they curated their fanbase toward for the previous 7 years; it was always going to be a risk but it was a risk that they accepted. I think this song and album, regardless of lyrics, was always going to be risky.

Very well said. I love twice so much but i miss the songs like Fancy, Feel special, Likey, ect ect

Interesting take, and while I can totally understand the points you’re making I can’t say I agree. Ready to Be, to me, felt like an oddball in an otherwise solid lineup of Twice releases starting with Taste of Love. I felt like With You-th was far more similar to Between 1 & 2 in terms of quality. And this next point is especially subjective, but lyrical content is not what I come to Twice songs for. I agree One Spark is pretty generic lyrically, but musically speaking I’d say it’s one of their best releases ever. I much prefer their new refined sound over their cheesier early stuff.

Twice is still less influenced as compared to Blackpink. Twice still has songs like feels and nayeon pop. Even set me free, i got you, one spark are so good.

BTS didn't suffer from westernization. In fact they grew from it while keeping their Korean music sonically distinct, at least as a group. Jungkook and Jimin went in a more traditional pop music route for their solo work, which is perfectly fine.

that’s why i believe between 1&2 was the perfect album, the title track, brave and basics had that bright, bubbly, cute sound mixed with a bit of maturity, queen of hearts to invoke a feeling of nostalgia with its 2000s pop-punk instrumental, gone for the people who want fully-matured twice with its powerful vocals and raps, trouble was for those who liked the dancey-club tracks and when we were kids was a cute lil ballad-y moment reflecting on the 7 years they’ve spent together, considering it was the year of renewal, it adds a layer to the song.

i agree with most things you said in this video!! however, i do respectfully disagree with the notion that groups drop their identity to promote in japan. this is probably due to the similarities of the two countries in terms of culture but i would argue that groups like twice, snsd & ive didn’t really shift their concept much to promote in japan.

Lately twice doesn’t even rely on their music anymore.. they rely on their loyal fans by touring

I lost interest in K-pop because of "the westernization". Some people want to call it "growth" when it simply isn’t. The best example is Dynamite being BTS signature, most popular song, when it doesn’t highlight ANYONES talents or abilities. And when I say that it’s a bad song, people say that I can’t accept that they wanted to change their sound. But they ALWAYS had songs of different genres and concepts and they were all quality until their big western break, so that really isn’t the problem. The same goes to Twice. I say that I dislike their English releases and people say that I want them to do cute concepts forever, as if they don’t have a whole I Can’t Stop Me or Feel Special that are NOT cute concepts and yet sound and look very K-pop. Most pre-2019 fans got into K-pop for things they weren’t getting from American artists and those things are disappearing. Once the group gets popular, you rarely see them on Korean shows, it’s mostly American talk shows etc. which I find boring. There’s also been a significant drop in the singing quality, because it’s so dance-focused now and you can just lip-sync it. None of this feels like "growth" of K-pop to me, it’s actually a rapid decline

very interesting. translating korean in to english will always make the songs so... flat? lacking deeper and prettier meanings... though i believe twice's change up in image, appearance, and marketing is what helped them continue on for so long now but the lack of a progressive narrative is something im gonna be thinking about. i see what you mean. much to think about much to think abt

FACTS, 100% agree with this

Finally someone spoke about this, Westernization ruined blackpink 🤢, and so many other idols.🤮

I dont think BTS should be included in this category.. BTS have release 3 full english tracks where one was part of a full korean comeback BE (with a korean title track which most fans forget). They released a Jpn album followed by Butter & PTD which were again singles.. which was followed by Proof (which is an anthology album again with 3/4 new korean songs). I dont see both Life goes on (BE) and Yet to Come (Proof) catering to the west plus they have context with whatever was going on in BTS's life. I dont get why changing their concept for 3 songs is seen as compromising their "core identity" when BTS have always been changing their concept since debut. Those 3 songs were a new sound sure but before that BTS has released DNA and Boy with Luv which have the same bright concept; which were followed with darker concepts like Fake Love and Black Swan. And in case Dynamite it was followed by Film Out and PTD was followed by Run BTS (which was promoted more than YTC) where again you can see the concept switch.. Also i dont think there are "english versions" of any title tracks, although there have been remixes that haven't worked, majority of the song is in korean. I would like to see another group as an example which actually has this problem than a group like BTS who've never stuck to a perticular concept