I just found you. I love you. It's like OG KZfaq core, a gorgeous geeky girl showing off her education and passion impressively. :)

Sometimes you just need to embrace the chaos.

Hi, I have been trying to research (traditional clothing from Italy, Spain and Greece) from the (1800s and specifically everyday pesent clothing) and of both men and women in 1800s, if possible can you make a video on (traditional mediterranean clothing) thank you 😊

Good research but there's got to have been some sort of twisting pattern whereby the strophium hold the girls up more securely than what you did there. And that would have been taught woman to woman, generation to generation, and like menstrual stuff, not written down anywhere, which is sad but that's what happens in patriarchal societies. But an interesting video that has me thinking how it might have been done.

Don't worry, Vasi. We have a shockingly high tolerance for weirdness! 😅

bwhahhahha!

😂😂😂

i saw sheep and wales in the same sentence and thought the joke was going a very different place

​@red_roy it's a trauma response to just assume that at this point.

@@red_roy Well it does possibly involve the contents of the underwear

Same!

I would also consider a kind of x shape for a large chest. One wrap for each breast, under one breast and over the other.

@@lolofunslayer4953 its a possibility but i feel the x shape or under and over could make the breast "migrate" to the sides so would limit the arms movements... 😅

@@DrinkYourNailPolishas a busty gal, i was trying to figure out how this would work! And the underbust wrapping is a must to help with support :D

I am a bigger chest and I like not wearing a bra. I just don’t like if people stare

But could it also mean "wrap"?

As I remember from my Ancient Greek knowledge: no. But it could be a „pars pro toto“. Then it would be a word describing a part for the whole thing. It means in anyway that it was twisted.

You have as a contemporary description the word Kirtle. Usually this word means a kind of woven belt or sash. They would have been woven on a different size loom and as the fabric was not designed for warmth but for strength and length I think the fabric would have been different from other garments, rather finer maybe than that for robes and other garments. UMy suggestion comes with those things in mind, length, narrow width, and finer softer fabric. It does like your idea employ wrapping, but as a woman would likely dress herself would need to be easy for her to manage herself. So this is the method I suggest she might have used which allows for her to adjust things to her own needs and comfort levels. First she would take the kirtle and find the mid point, then tie a light knot in it, then take each half of the kirtle and wrap it from front to back crossing over at the back and bringing the ends forward to the front. She could twist this as she wanted. The ends that came forward could be tugged to the right tension and taken over the central loose knot that would give some shape and be tucked in to the sides under the arms. Surprisingly fabric can and does stay in place for long amounts of active time, ask anyone who has worn more than a holiday sarong, I.e. a proper one, which are worn differently for women and men, with fabric folded differently, or people who wear sarees worn in certain ways, not all use pins and petticoats but stay on nevertheless. Some of them traditionally had no blouses but still provided coverage of the upper body. So I think a similar very simple method of wrapping would be used, using the tension of the fabric against the body to keep the ‘tails’ of the kirtle in place. An extension of this idea would be to tie a string or ribbon just under the bust first before doing the wrap. Another refinement would be to wet the fabric and crinkle it , complete with knot, then dry it to shape, perhaps using some kind of starch. This would give extra support. I don’t think those big pins would have been used, would you trust them that close to your skin. It is one thing to trust them to hold stuff onto your shoulder…..

@@EconaelGaming not directly but with a bit of imagination it could. The most appropriate Greek verb for the verb "wrap" is "τυλίσσω"

That makes sense.

Oooh, thanks. I'll look that one up and see if I can find it (hope it's in English, my German isn't that good)

Found the book on Amazon- but it’s hardback and over $100 😱

@@amandagrayson389see if your library can borrow it! librarians love finding stuff like that

@@musicandbooklover-p2o it is, there is actually no German version yet

@@amandagrayson389 maybe your local library has it? And if not, you can ask them to maybe get it

and would also meet the "twisted" part of the etymology as pointed out by another viewer.

I was thinking that too

Yeah, but that's not what we have in the mosaics, unfortunately...

also, I am certain women figured out how to halter this, a much more supportive option and easily done.

@@tkeyserpetty Halters transfer weight to the neck which is not at all comfortable.

lol "pendulous"

Women have been figuring out bust support since early civilization for sure, even if it's not documented, but I wonder if it was necessary before agrarianism. Were hunter-gatherers ever successful enough that significant busts could develop? I kinda doubt it. Malnutrition would have been nearly universal, right?

@@admthrawnuru Breastfeeding is going to increase the size regardless...

Indian wraps for women are likely the same or very close. I was going to mention this because they can be looked up rather easily for current cultural walk thru's.

That gave me a giggle. As I was reading it in the context of Ancient Rome the reference to "that was several tablets ago" slipped into my brain as roman wax writing tablets and it took me a few seconds to get back to iPad/Android tablet in my head before the sentence made proper sense..

I heard of a production where the director insisted the balls stabbed were not the eyeballs. Theater people! Heard that one while I was getting my theater degree.

Why shoulder important?

​@@valvihk3649Because Oedipus's last sight would have been his mother's breasts.

@@valvihk3649because then it isn’t the strophion

@@valvihk3649 Two of the most common Ancient Greek garments were the chiton and peplos. They were both basically a large sheet folded around the body into a wide tube, pinned at the shoulders and tied at the waist with a rope belt. If the pins were removed, the fabric above the waist would drop, exposing the entire torso.

Yes!! I agree. I hope more sewing-related channels talk about this, because undergarments are so difficult to conceptualize without stretchy fabric. Especially undergarments made for supportive comfort that can either be adjusted or made to accomodate a body's natural changes throughout a day. I hope V continues this as a series. ❤

This reminds me of a breast binder for lactating Moms. My culture uses one for 3 months even while breastfeeding to keep from having pain when you're breasts are full. Also ease, but we tie in the front. Typically your Mom shows you how.

Thanks for watching ☺️ I would recommend checking out short stays as well from the Regency period if you haven’t learned about them already.

In addition to Regency short stays, there is also the medieval Lengberg bra if you want another option that is similar to a modern one but without stretch fabrics. Luckily there are a decent amount of videos and blog posts about it. I will occasionally wear a modern posture corrector over a shift in lieu of a bra for some compression if I’m exercising, since I don’t own a sports bra. I’m a US 30K and I need to try the Ancient Greek bandeau for science!

I would recommend cotton instead of linen or if you have a lot of fabric available cutting the strips from the bias. I tried linen and since it doesn't stretch at all the wrap only stayed up when very very tightly wrapped and being therefore uncomfortable.

Did you find any historical garments that helped with comfort? I’ve been thinking of getting a corset to help distribute my busts weight on my hips

@@roseabellmoviestar I didn't, but that was largely because I didn't want to invest in a corset since I prefer more masculine clothing and so just getting a reduction instead was the better option for me. If I did enjoy having a feminine style/silhouette I would definitely have tried it, since everything I've learned about them suggests they would work and feel way better than a bra if fitted correctly. Support from underneath the bust that takes the weight off the shoulders and distributes it over a much larger area, AND also helps with posture would have been ideal, I just personally would feel uncomfortable having an hourglass figure. But if that style works for you and you're interested I would suggest giving it a try!

@@pilarofstone thank you! I think it would work for me. I’m in the USA and my insurance won’t cover a reduction and a corset is much cheaper

if the fabric is cut on the bias it helps it have some stretch

I would very much recommend trying to connect to a local reenactment/costumer group​, and get help from someone who has made successful corsets to make a custom fit one. A cheap "off the rack" corset may not fit you well enough to be comfortable, and could needlessly put you off the whole concept. I've figured out how to modify cheap corsets to work for me, but I don't have much of a figure, so it's not too hard.

That’s crazy! Why iron them!? My mom is in her 70’s too. 1950’s parents had a lot of strange ideas about what was an acceptable way of presenting one’s self, and the numerous ways that were not acceptable. That said, as a busty woman, I’m so glad we have lots of comfortable options available today. I think wrapping and twisting fabric to make a halter top would be comfortable on heavier chested women more than a strapless version.

If you feel comfortable sharing, please let me know how it is!

That would be great! I am curious also

A fellow lizard!

@@VBirchwood Copy/pasting my comment from above, in case it's of interest to you. I have a large bust (like... 38L or so, last I checked), and I've worn strophia daily for a couple of years; I find it vastly more comfortable than modern undergarments. Specifically, my standard pattern is about 12"-18" width (dependent on preference, but enough to go from the underbust, up and around, to wherever you want the top), enough length to wrap around the body 3-4 times, and a cheap skirt/kilt pin - the Dritz two-pack for $5 is my go-to. (The pin is optional, but I recommend it for larger-busted folks, because your bust changes shape substantially when you lay down or bend over - that's when an unpinned strophium tends to start wiggling loose for me.) Start under and around one bust, spin in a circle until you reach the end of the length, tucking each wrap under the bust. If you choose, you can leave the last wrap not under the bust, letting it hang like a tube top - I find that this makes the silhouette less obvious under modern clothes like t-shirts, and it basically looks like a tanktop/undershirt. Pin the end in place, through all layers of the strophium - if you pin from the inside, the pin will be nearly invisible. The friction of the linen holds everything in place - no bouncing, no jiggle, very similar coverage to a binder in my experience, but vastly more comfortable because my ribs aren't fighting the elastic to breathe. It does not need to be tight - there should be no difficulty breathing and no discomfort or pain. Just firm enough that it's not literally falling off your chest. I can stick my whole hand easily under the one I'm wearing right now. I've worn it all day, including a nap, and it hasn't needed to be readjusted. Smaller-busted folks may have a bit more trouble keeping things in place. In my experience, strophia have a big advantage over corsets if you spend a lot of time hunched over - whether because you sit on the floor or on cushions a lot, because you do a lot of work which involves being bent over, or because you nap or lay down frequently. I've also found that linen strophia are a lot easier on my skin than synthetic fabrics - I was prone to pretty unpleasant rashes (intertrigo) when I wore modern undergarments, like many folks with very large busts, and those have completely disappeared since I started using strophia. I've also found that I have less back pain when doing housework which requires me to bend over, like washing dishes. I'm sure folks have varied experiences, but I would highly recommend giving it a go, especially since the materials are inexpensive and pretty readily available.

@@serrate-td7tu Thank you!

also, one reason breasts become "floppy" is wearing strong breast support. It's detrimental to the development of the muscles holding things in place naturally. Same principle applies to other things. For example people who habitually go barefoot tend to have much stronger musculature in their feet and ankles than those who don't.

Thank you so much! I’m glad you enjoy them ☺️

That’s amazing, I’m sure it’s beautiful! 🥰

it shouldnt be censored in youtube rules bc it counts as art but i assume the moderation bots dont care

@@Bulbs_Productions Yeah, the moderation bot on youtube is basically just broken. We have clear and blatant eroticized nudity on the site that is still monetized, but even pictures of statues are often flagged.

Yeah, I also immediately thought: "the internet says EVERYTHING is appropriate." :)

Yeah, social media appropriate 😂

@@donjones4719 that hasn't been the case for a long time. 90% of internet = social media, where american paranoia about female boobage and conservative hangups about lgbtq expression reign supreme

@@MCArt25 The fact you only ever browse KZfaq and Facebook doesn't mean that's the entirety of the internet, mate.

@@VBirchwood You could’ve made that disclaimer 5 minutes sooner… 🙄 Only jokes of courses!! 😂😂

Could be! That’s why I express that I’m not sure if they were worn by everyday people, just the wealthy, or only in certain occasions. There are sooooo many gaps in this mystery.

Lol.

It made me think of a binder as well, and the old ace bandage binding which we all know is unsafe. I think it is the elasticity of the ace bandage that causes it to be dangerous because it can incrementally increase tightness over time. I think a non elastic fabric might be less likely to cause harm because you can only stretch a natural fiber so tight without any added elasticity.

Thank you for pointing this aspect out! I’ve added a statement about the potential risks in my pinned comment. I appreciate you looking out for everyone’s wellbeing!

i'm very glad you said this, i am also a regular binder wearer for dysphoria reasons and had similar concerns about the non-elastic chest wrap when V mentioned having trouble breathing

One of the big problems with using bandages, though, is that they contain elastic, so they can tighten up and restrict your breathing without you realizing it. A woven fabric from antiquity wouldn't have that problem.

Bandage clips, those little, curved sheet metal things with ‘claws’ on both ends to grab the fabric seem the thing to use in this function. I’m supposing they existed in the way back as they are dead simple and our ancestors were not dim.

Thank you so much! :)

Nobody is talking too much about the bikini girls because we only have this one depiction and it's from a late Roman floor mosaic in rural Sicily and we don't know what to make of it

Would they have worn anything at all?

dactylichexaphoebster-vx5nv, I am guessing at this however, I think it's because modern bras are designed more with appearance in mind than comfort. (Think back to the "bullet" bras of the 50s). But that's just my opinion.

Perhaps the fabric should be cut on the bias for stretchiness.

Not sure what time period you are refering to but taditionally Japanese women used the obi (aka the Kimono belt) in a similar way corsets were used in Europe. That is why the obi for women is usually twice as wide as the mens version. It is not just to keep the kimono closed it also has to cover the lower part of the breasts for support the same way some styles of corset do. Then again, since the obi is wrapped around I guess it is not wrong to say they wrapped their breasts.

​@@IISheireenII huh, this is interesting! This function of the obi makes a lot of sense but is something I hadn't considered.

@@perryh.-r.4419 I reccoment Billy Matsunagas youtube channel for interesting kimono knowledge

@@IISheireenII Actually not quite like a corset. If the woman wasn't exactly... gifted, she could wear obi over her breasts, but generally obi was tied right below the breasts instead, i.e. obi would function not unlike a bra band does on modern bras with kimono substituting for bra cups and straps. Also women obi became wider and stiffer *_with time,_* eventually reaching a point where it'd be purely decorative and incapable of doing its function, thus another obi (either separate or placed through the now-decorative obi) would fasten the kimono, which could give the impression it's tied over the chest, when it actually wasn't.

that's what you get when most of your history is written by men about men

What you're describing with the kirtle sounds like the jumps made in rural areas, worn instead of boned stays and corsets. Maybe you could take inspiration from something like that? Elin Abrahamsson made video on a 'working woman's corset' and Angela Clayton has a video on jumps as well.

Don't forget regency short stays; similar to a corset but shorter.

I agree! I find it very upsetting as well, as breasts aren’t necessarily sexual but have been sexualised. I had to cover the statues with leaves in the video to meet social media guidelines 🥲

So much of classical art being representational, depicting nudes, was more about appreciation of human form, figure and musculature (male and female) rather than a clear depiction of "modesty" or not. Certain cultures and subcultures had classist rules about modesty... and the art we see with fig leaves on them were added centuries later! Seems like lots of humanity has gone backward!!! Hope that info was helpful...

In many cultures breasts are seen mainly as something to nourish babies, not to titillate men.

none of these responses are biologically correct at all. They are scientifically erogenous zones, that is an indisputable scientifically measurable fact. Ask any lesbian of ancient or current times as well for further clarification. They have also been depicted in exaggerated, comical, highlighted manners from cave drawings to statues from a few thousand years ago. They might have been more socially acceptable being visible, but so were all the sexual organs. Its only til modern feminism came around that the push to not have them sexual came about. This man blaming/hating nonsense needs to stop

IMHO its pretty hard wired.

Men are inclined to agree with you.

😂​@@catarmy9496

@@catarmy9496 Are they? How do you know?

This looks in every way like a worse version of a bra, because the fabric can't stretch and will impede breathing as she found out quickly. Plus it doesn't have any straps so is likely to work its way down unless you wrap it very tightly (which would be uncomfortable and can even be dangerous, like wearing a binder that's too tight)

@@catarmy9496 is this about salivating over women going braless? Yikes if yes

A sarashi is a traditional strip of fabric, used for breast binding/bust support, stomach wraps, male underpants etc. Seems very similar to the strophion so I was thinking the same thing; Looking at Japanese breast binding techniques might be helpful here.

When wrapping a sarashi you twist it each time you bring it behind you from what I've read. So I imagine a similar technique might have been used. Sarashi are much longer though.

Same actually! The "gross" details that constitute a major part of the human experience are left out for some reason

This was my conclusion also

Yeah sure, because standards are only for men to live up to. Back then, a man HAD TO be either a warrior or a slave. He could not be a citizen, cast votes, and own property without joining the army. And wars were not rare back then. All men who joined the army had blood on their hands.

@@adorp I'm not sure what you're getting at

Just a comment: Please say Ancient Greek instead of Greek. We also don’t call the Romans Italiens when we refer to the ancient civilization. I think it is important.

That,one you described is Spartan women,i don't remember ancient Roman women doing that.

There are these girls who live in the sea just off the coast of Denmark who use the shells of Canadian Scallops

if you have enough band underneath the bust it does most of the supporting and lifting. the shoulder straps aren't needed as much.

As someone stated above, the halter style just transfers the weight to your neck, which can be very uncomfortable.