Little throttle might have helped when straightening out to put some weight back over the rear wheels, the steering input looked about right. Don't sweat it, it's a difficult reaction to get down.

The fact that you posted it with a humble attitude means nothing but good things. Ive watched your vids as you post over time and you may not notice but you get better each video. Im no track vet but you have a good mental approach and you seem dedicated so props bro! Might have to link up some day at the track once i finish up on my evo.

Finding the limits means mistakes will be made. Happy to see your alright brother

My track instructors pounded this into my brain...smooth inputs!!! 😂 Smooth is fast! I still consider myself a student and probably will for several more years, we're all still learning and we can learn from each other. Thank you for sharing!

its hard to tell where the limit is without crossing it, better this happening on the track rather on the street. seems like you know what was your mistake, keep getting better.

This is what happens when you’re pushing the limits of your driving skills and car. The only mistake would be pushing this hard in the canyons. Appreciate the post and all the great content. I’ll be doing some track days myself once my gr86 comes in.

The big thing here was cold tires, not just throttle application. There will always be another spin as long as you drive on track or race. Just remember that it’s an opportunity to learn and many times what you learn can make you faster

Ah, learning moments. Love it man! Thanks for sharing. Still learning from dailying an 86 7yrs with VSC/TC almost always off. It shows on the bodywork lol. This helps ogres like me avoid knee jerk overcorrection, so it surely has a place in your tool kit. If you anticipate oversteer, you can let go of the wheel initially and the caster will steer for you. keep the throttle steady and catch the wheel when it stops in the direction of travel. But yes, warm up the tires 😅

subbed because im learning myself and i love down to earth humble people, keep it up man youll go far forsure

Just used to romping on the throttle with TC on, thats all! Good stuff man, glad you kept it out of the wall! You'll be gentler with the throttle in subsequent sessions with TC off for sure till you find the balance and begin to better sense the tiny amounts of rear rotation for the given grip limits of your tires, which will unconsciously govern your right foot input. All part of learning your machine at the limits, you can't ever know whats going to happen until you feel what its like past certain limits in certain conditions!

No offense but uploading this helps people like me learn what to do on the track thanks

I enjoy watching your videos!! This teach me what to do and how react when dealing with a situation like this

We've all been there man, you're a great driver can't wait to see more!

I think you over corrected when the rear stepped out. Loving your content so much and nice to see how much faster you are becoming. I want to do something like this when I’m older and your videos give me a good idea of what it is like 👍

Spinning is learning on the track. You handled it well. Bravo for posting it.

I'm really digging your content. It shows you can have a great time on the track without being in a supercar. I hope your channel explodes! You definitely give the full track experience, good and bad.

Awesome video, thanks for sharing this. Great learning moments.

Almost spun at that same corner due to cold tires felt the rear going and caught it pretty quick.

good post! Love your attitude. I just got a 86 and spun off on Thunderbolt last weekend and grass flew in! At the end of the session I had to go and get a car wash and vacuum out the grass which was everywhere in my 5 day old car :(

the most important thing, its see and do a safe rejoin, for u and for the others drivers, very nice video!

Great videos. How much was this track day event? Track events here in central California range from $250-300+

Better for it to happen on the track than on the road. Glad you and the car are ok.

Did something almost exactly the same in my ND Miata on my last track day, two laps after turning TC off 😭

Glad you're oke ;) To be honnest i practiced drifting before i started racing. A race driver helped me when i first got my license because i was very good friends with him. And he basically said try to control the car before you drive on the limit and drifting in a save place, spinning out learning to drive without assists/abs/tcs ect. will learn to catch and hold slides. And you might think, what has drifting to do with driving on track, well it teaches you to know how much steering lock you need, for how long, if at all ect. I really felt it helped me alot since my mx5 unlike others has rake and the front tires never loose traction but that does mean the rear can step out sometimes. Because you let of the trottle all grip went back to the front tires, and the car turns the other way. If you had the gas at 50% you would have drifted the corner with alot of lock but you would be fine. You can also just floor it and spin out (Sounds weird) but atleast you are still on track. Keiichi Tsuchiya has a video on KZfaq called the Drift Bible, and it shows weight stransfer and how to control slides ect, it's a very good video if you want to know more :) Long story short, even when a slide happens i catch it 90% of the time, and the other 10% is just a controlled spin. Try to use the handbrake and steering wheel to keep sliding straight and not off track. This track has grass, but others have concrete walls. Flatspots on road cars arrent that big of a deal to be honnest. I have spin a few times and the tires are fine even at a 80 mph spin with wheels locked. Maybe heavy cars with very soft rubber some issues can come in but it's much less expensive than a new car. :) Cheers! Love the gt86

It happens. I do think you probably would of had it recovered had you not hit grass. Keep up the good work. Thanks for posting.

Is this your daily? If it is then this video is a HUGE help and appreciated because I wanna take my car out to the track! Just gotta be as careful as can be I guess

So I actually did this on the highway fortunately for me my car was okay and no one got hurt. What happened was you felt the rear come out and over compensated with too much correction angle. That loaded the front and when the car gained traction in the rear again it slung the other way. There's a science to unloading the steering in a slide but hella good job keeping it safe, rejoined safe, keeping composure! Always hard to upload our mistakes Mad props. keeping your hands at 9 and 3o clock helps me correct slides really quickly without losing my mental note of tdc.

May I ask what app on the phone you are using to display your performance lap time delta?

Back when I owned a BRZ, I noticed that in VSC sport mode, it would lengthen the leash a bit, but cut in at a certain point, well after you're already in a slide. For me that created a snappy handling car when crossing the limit, as when the rear tires lose grip, they then immediately regain all of their traction, after you've already added counter steering, making the car want to snap the other way. For me, all systems on, or everything off was more predictable. Your mileage may vary though.

As others have said, completely getting out of the throttle will just unload your rear end and you're going around no matter what. The other thing I'll add is that when you unwind your countersteer you're just a split second too late. It's hard to put into words, but as the rotation of the first slide slows, you have to start feeling whether the wheel wants to come back the other way. As it gets heavy, that means the front tires are gripped up but still sliding and you need to unwind the countersteer. This happens BEFORE the car stops rotating. If you watch the video back, you don't start unwinding that first countersteer until the car is already starting to go back in the other direction, at that point, it's too late. To put it slightly differently, unwinding your first countersteer should take some real effort, if the wheel is already lightening up again and wanting to turn back for you it's way too late.

Bro you were going ludicrous speed before the incident nice!

Hey! Ever heard of the MCA traction mod? I literally just learned about it couple days ago and it seems this is just the kind of thing it might help with. I have not tried it yet but I’ve also been looking into more ways of making my FRS more predictable. :) cheers!

Thanks for sharing this and teaching some stuff. Track driving the right way is serious skill. Hey you watch anime?

Look man ! You are living many people's dream here. So first congratulations 🎉 2nd, I'm not the first one to say this but you posted your video like a REAL MAN & so YOU ROCK ! So keep up the good work & you have at least my respects 💯 Which track is this btw ? Where ?

thanks for sharing! a lot of respect for you

A man it happens you’re building experience you’ll have more hiccups like this just keep pushing learn the mistakes and slowly push your limits and enjoy the car on track, best of luck to you..

It happens! I'd say cold tires may have had to do with it. The good thing is no one was hurt and nothing broke. What event are you going to next, would love to make a cameo on your video :)

Hey there, some unsolicited advice as you've gotten from a lot of other people. I started tracking a year ago and have done about 50 days in that time (yes, the addiction is real). Like you, I initially drove my BRZ (mine is a 22) in track mode. I found that the most important thing that helped me improve as a driver was 1. turning everything off and slowing down 2. trying lower grip tires. I would highly recommend you go with something like the Champiro SX2 in 225/45/17 on a stock sized wheel. When you add more mechanical grip and stickier tire, you have more grip (obviously) but the point at which the breakaway and loss of traction happens is a lot quicker and needs fast hands and feet. Driving on a narrow tire like this, the tires will SCREAM at you as you lose grip, allowing your hands and feet to not need to move as quickly. Over time with more experience the feeling of losing traction will be more immediate, and this technique can translate to when you put faster tires on and you have to react quicker. The good thing? Your immediate reaction to apply counter steer was the right thing to do, I think you were just too aggressive on throttle initially that the counter steer had to very immediate. You also applied some over correction which lead to the second shift to the right. Go check out Zent Rose's video on snap oversteer, where he explains over correction and how to neutralize the slip angle. You're doing great, keep up the good work. Remember that lap times don't mean much, no one is winning anything in HPDE. Focus on driver growth and the results will come!

I still haven't gone full traction control off so I am sure when that happens I will probably spin out a few times but as long as you keep off the wall. You almost had it too. I agree with everyone too great content!

What you saw/felt was snap oversteer which bites all of us 86 owners eventually. The LSD unlocks when there's little/no throttle input, you were in it hard going in the corner (diff locked), then swiftly off throttle (diff unlocks), then back on throttle trying to save it (diff locks), the combo almost always sends the car the way it did in your case as the LSD opens and closes. There's not much you can do besides stay in the throttle/drift and see it all the way through the corner keeping the diff locked the whole time with constant throttle, either way don't let it get you down, happens to all of us!.

respect the upload

dang tough one, the off camber corner and weight transfer make it really tricky

Don't forget the tires were cold!

Good on you for sharing this and for asking how to deal with it in the future. I'm late to commenting but I'll share what I know. Obviously easing into the throttle with TC off will allow you to feel out the limit of grip and make minor adjustments more easily which will allow you to avoid this situation in the future. But for correcting and saving the slide it was said in the top comment that applying throttle while straightening out is the way to go. However, the first thing is when you feel the rear loose traction is to take your foot out of the throttle, unload the rear and load up the front. As you do that countersteer, because the fronts are loaded up you will be able to use minimal lock (Your hands shouldn't leave the 9 and 3 positions as it becomes easy to lose track of where the wheel is in a situation like this.) As the car starts to straighten out from the countersteer ease back onto the throttle. Easing back into the throttle is doing two things, you're shifting the weight to the rear causing them to grip more, but the rears are also gonna push the car straight. While this is going on you should be straightening out the wheel. But I am gonna echo what most are saying, smooth inputs are everything. It allows you to gauge what the car is doing near the limit and how it reacts over the limit and allows you to save it more easily. Take your time learning and reaching the limits turn by turn, this will help make you a faster driver that can dance on the limit of grip.

I’d go to a big parking lot and practice pushing just passed the limits of traction like what happened here to learn to hold & recover slides. make sure the oil is at the full mark on the dipstick to avoid any oil starvation issues when going sideways.

I think this is all good man. I have a healthy respect for that corner because that's a section of track where you can burn off a lot of speed and naturally want to jump on it to get some time back into 5. Last time there I was on a pace lap day and I was following an M3 session 4. He'd get a little gap on me after #1 every lap because I hesitate to hammer out of #1 in a RWD Mustang so I feather out and then get on it when the car settles after the hill. So I was entering #2 in 4th and downshifting into #3 to 3rd and noticed it was really affecting my overall speed from #2 to #5 and I wasn't making up the gap on him until just after #5 as he was very unsettled after 5 taking a bad line and I was able to close the gap. So I remembered what an instructor told me and I started staying in 4th all the way from #1-#7 with no shifts - forces me as a driver to use the speed already in the car rather than hammering out of corners. Logically, to me based on my exit speed from #4 I should be in 3rd gear but, interestingly, I immediately started closing the gap on him between #2 and was on him by #4. I'm not 100% sure why this is TBH. Part of me thinks it's a mental game in that I'm able to feather the throttle more confidently slightly lower in the RPM range (my gears are pretty close). This stuff is just weird sometimes. I certainly didn't have the power out of #4 in 4th but, obviously, something was better. But most likely all 100% mental because staying in 4th made me focus that much more on maintaining the speed I brought to #2 all the way through #4. Overall, I give you a lot of respect turning off TC and getting after it like that. It's how you really improve and learn what unsettles the car and doesn't.

I lost the rear on my last track day in a similar situation left hand turn about the same speed 70mph but after the fist correction I decided to let it go straight on the grass on the right side instead of trying to bring it back on the road. Anyway it was a bit scary the tires started to scream loud and time dilated and I was thinking if the car was going to react normally to my inputs as it were the the first time this happened after several years of track days with TC on. my current car now doesn’t have TC/esc. Anyway I have some experience with simulation/sim racing but all cars are different and many times I drive with a quick steering rack. with a normal rack you can get disoriented about the position of the wheel , also if you panic you may react differently.

I usually keep my foot on the throttle and lessen the throttle as smoothly as possible, then I put more throttle once it's almost fully straight. On and off throttle just disrupts the car too much unless you purposely want to slide, so being smooth with your inputs saves you in situations like these.

Nice work keeping the car on the asphalt as long as you did to scrub some speed, everyone goes off track once in a while. I took my M2C off just after turn 1 and ripped the carbon front splitter straight off this year. Also took the McLaren off. No better place to learn the limit than a race track!

Thanks for being real👍🏻. Just goes to show you can never be too proud. This is how we evolve.

Late to the show but I will offer my input. First, my experience in RWD handling comes from owning two modified mustangs, one of which is becoming a garage racecar at the moment. Granted its harder to lose the end with 295s on the rear vs a more suitable tire for road track. Once the rear broke loose, your steering input initially was fine. Once you crossed your gate up, and probably would constitute and over correct for how much it was around at that moment. The most important thing would be throttle usage at that point. You have a car traveling at ~65mph and you dropped the throttle, with the rears not having traction. The engine immediately begins braking the rear tires. As you slid back across, the tires are traveling at a much lower speed than your vehicle and you are essentially dragging them along. Its hard to get it to muscle memory, but one of two things makes this a save. Either keeping a moderate amount of throttle(of course after you instinctively tapped the brakes) or by applying the clutch to unload the transmission and allowing the wheels to regain traction on their own. In comparison, what you did was what "every mustang driver" does leaving a car show. Get it out of gear and allow the rear tires to freely get back to the speed the vehicle is moving.

Right when you went full throttle the car over rotates. It was super early in the session so maybe cold tires? If you're trying to get used to driving with VSC off you could dial in a little understeer, like less bump in the rear, maybe a little more AoA on the wing.

When I feel the rear end give out I usually let go of the steering wheel and let the car itself steer sideways and use the throttle direct the car. Keeps from getting my hands tied up and you can’t really give enough counter steer fast enough holding the wheel if the car really gets sideways.

I'm still learning so take this with a grain of salt, but I've found it much more smooth to ease into the throttle on turns rather than full throttle. Even though the cars throttle feels like an on off switch I found my lines much smoother when I eased into the throttle. No clue if its just a me thing or if it will help your situation but that's just my observation. GL with the future track events!

Are you thinking of turbo/superchargering the BRZ?

earned my subscription

It feels like you were already trail braking into the 2nd corner. Then you stabbed the throttle instead of letting the weight settle mid corner, and that's when the tail stepped out. I can understand you wanting to test the limits. Chris Harris did an outstanding review where he talks about how this car is a great example of vehicle dynamics. You picked a great car. If you haven't already, there are Senna clips in an NSX where you get to see his iconic throttle jabs. And he's basically drifting the car to find grip.

As others have commented classic tankslapper from over correction, You have to unwind the correction usually faster than you put it in but that comes from experience really, Great content nevertheless you are certainly getting 100 percent out of the equipment 👊

cant help cuz i have FWD vehicle so in that case i would just keep like 55% on throttle and turn even more for get the traction but in RWD im not sure, i have 0 experience with it

The more I watch your videos the more I want to get out to a track day…but it’s my only car.

What kind of gear oil do you have in the trans?

bro got so scared he turned on the windshield wiper

When fishtailing, you need to be preemptive with your inputs or it will get worse. So for example, when your car is angled left, you're turning to the right to correct it, simple stuff. The key is, the moment it starts to snap back to the right, you need to get your wheel turned left asap. By the point that your car is facing straight ahead, your wheel would need to be turned left. For most people, their wheel is turned straight at this point, and that's why the fishtail stays the same or gets worse. Light throttle to pair with this and you're golden.

Yeah it looks like the rear was a bit light when you matted it suddenly, I think just rolling onto the power a little more progressively might have helped. These things happen, good on you for sharing so that others may learn.

I would always wait at least 1 lap before I would get anywhere close to my or the cars limit, especially when it’s cool outside sometimes two laps are needed.

you really should name this channel "Daily Dose of Driving" if you know you know 👀

First thing I always learned was to roll into the throttle upon exit

what are you driving?

Echoing what I've read in here, I know I'm developing some of the similar habits of mashing the throttle when a slide is happening and countersteering - all because that's what I'm used to with Track mode / sport traction (whatever names different car makers use for partial stability/tc). It's taught me bad habits, such as just keep your foot in it and manage steering and it'll eventually pull you through by managing throttle and brake inputs to hopefully keep you at a reasonable slip angle, that will be an incredibly difficult process to un-learn doing what you're doing. I actually think if you were able to keep your foot in it or do a partial (not full) lift, you could have done a beautiful drift through the corner into the next one. Between a full-lift and over correction in steering, it created the tank slapper. Let your tires warm up and have a good time - we're all learning, so thanks for sharing! Also notice even with a full press the stability light still kicked in once once you were fully sideways and in a spin - it'll still try to save you after you've messed up. If you want it off-off, use the pedal dance or get a trac box - I don't really see a need for one of those in 99% of the cases though.

Hey man how come your car sounded louder during low rev

Oh so you did a Mazepin right at a start of the session, cool

Steering input was good, but there were 2 factors that made you spin out 1. As you were exiting the corner, you got on full throttle suddenly. This caused the car to react by shifting weight back and causing you to slide. Next time, ease on the throttle 2. As soon as you started sliding, IMO you caught the slide, but you let off the throttle completely, causing you to lose control. If you stayed on throttle or gotten off it slowly, you would've straightened out.

This man definitely used all of the track. Subarus in their natural rally habitat. Lol

What oil do you run?

If nothing else, at least you had the presence of mind to flip the wipers on to keep the dust off the windshield. Glad everything ended up OK!

Definitely a heavy foot exiting that corner

By listening to the tire squeak from your previous videos I can tell you were relying on tc a lot. I did exactly same thing when I turn off the tc for the first time, and I mean it. Corrected the oversteer but didn’t react fast enough for the snap back lol. I went to a few autocross to literally just drift around the whole thing, and got so much more comfortable with sliding. You should try it too, autocross are usually lower speed so easier for beginners to learn.

Thanks for sharing. My opinion: initially you had too much throttle which spun the rear wheels and created excess oversteer, you were correcting properly but then the complete lift of throttle is where it really went wrong and the moment could of been saved if you went down to about 80% throttle (instead of zero). That would of been about the amount you needed to have evenly distributed load over the f/r end and it would of reduced the torque to the back wheels and reduced excess oversteer.

I didn't think an 86 would lose traction that easily, but I guess you were almost fully on throttle. Reminds me of sim racing a lot, it's really similar there with throttle inputs.

Why did you go with uel header?

The only thing I haven't seen mentioned is there is some debate on if turning off TC/SC via the buttons (and pedal dance) changes the brake balance, but definitely does change the brake SC. The car is easier to rotate under braking due to less intervention of the SC while trail braking. But because SC is technically still on, it will intervene later, creating interesting situations. This may be one of those situations, trail braking into a cresting turn is likely going to feel different in TC/SC on vs TC/SC off situations. TC on will intervene before the crest because this car hates trail braking. TC off it is going let you go deeper, but because TC/SC doesn't have eyes, has no idea you are about to unload the rear with the help of gravity and a curb. Regardless, you didn't bin it in a wall so it was still a good day on the track.

A little grass ain't so bad lol. Anytime your spin out doesn't lead to repairs is a good day 😁

If there's one thing everyone says about 86s, it's that they come Wayy Overpowered from factory!!😂🤣

It happens but a good help would have been to use the throttle to try to find grip pointing in the right direction, seeing your slow motion we can see that from the moment you lost grip you didn't press the throttle anymore, in that scenario you can try to use it to find grip.

Could this just be cold tyres?

Good transparency.

Don't know if this was shared already but the main rule of TC Off is to start the day or weekend with No TC. Don't drive and build muscle memory then turn TC off in the middle of the day or middle of a session. Basically you start with No TC and build speed slowly. It will take several track days to get back to your original personal best but your average lap time will become more consistent.

I've been racing for just over 20 years and have done a bit of instruction too. I must admit, although I have a few comments, you're driving's pretty good; I think perhaps you crossed some oil or something? The balance of the car seemed fine before it suddenly shifted to oversteer and it didn't seem like you had enough throttle on to cause power oversteer. Most people in this situation do nothing until it's far too late and then jump off the throttle (making it worse) and throw in far too much opposite lock to the rapidly worsening situation; whereas you actually did the right thing and responded to the shift in balance as it happened by keeping the steering pointed where you wanted to go. The odd thing was that it suddenly got worse during that initially gentle slide - perhaps there was some oil down, or the track was dirty somehow? You said it was early in your time on the track - was it also early in the day? I also found your comment about learning to drive without TC interesting, purely because I'm old and I learnt to drive on road and track without it. I'd never considered that younger people, if they don't drive a racing car or go kart, learn with all those safety nets on cars and then of course you have a moment where you first turn them off.

Now I have never set foot on a race track, my experience is strictly limited to Gran Turismo. But those games can't be totally wrong if even I can say I'm not disappointed by the title. That should be a solid lesson about if not the how to, at least the how not to lol

Once your hand leaves the wheel, it's over. There was a point where you could've kept your foot in it as the yaw stopped but because your hand left the wheel, the car only will snap the other way. When it stops yawing is when you need to go back to neutral steering.

Thank goodness for run-off. Cold tires lead foot don't mix. Hey keep at it. Maybe a little more sim work with a high horsepower car with no TC will give you better sensitivity with the throttle👍🏾✌🏾🏁

Do you have and power mods?

All it was was a too late reaction time and an over correction. Keep going don’t give up you’ll get it. You Could have waited a couple more seconds to get on the throttle or have been a little more light on it throughout the turn that would have kept the back end from kicking out.

Thank God it wasn’t in the rain

Don't worry man, I've spun out many times on track and on the streets, the streets are by far most embarrassing ones, many people are there and they just see a dude spin out. On track its different, You go there to gain experience and skill. It's better to spin out more and have more good times, if You go there and just drive/drift and just don't spin out many times, its worse, because if You start drifting on the streets because You think You're so good at it, once You're spinning out You don't know what to do. If You spin out more times You will have an idea of how the car acts

Remembers me on my first spin with my 86 😂 fast left 3. Gear corner overcorrected it way more then you and bevor I could do anything else I was driving backwards the track with full speed but the abs was not willing to work backwards 😂😂 Learning by doing

Nice track layout :) feels like ideal for beginners to improve

This is an example of something called lift off over steer.

dude shit happens, probably cold tires

I feel like the wheel spin in the grass made it lose it fully but idk