Ladders were also used by Wellingtons men in Spain were they not? At Cuidad Roderigo and Badajoz?

ladders are firmly placed in reality, especially vs other items in this sequence, there is only so far one can suspend disbelief.

The Pikes.....you have to look at the bigger picture (pun somewhat intended?), the Uruk Hai where out to meet and fight the Rohan army, a cavalry army, so pikes we carry, even tho in the end the end up assaulting a fortress. Who's to know the fortunes of war?

@@aminrodriguez4707 That was my thought as well.

So why not put them down when the siege begins

@@jimmybobby4824 because they also work decently well for pushing infantry through a breach (shields might have helped....and why didn't the elves keep shooting??)

Ya he kinda loses all credibility when he’s like Pikes are used against Calvary, well, what is Rohan known for in Tolkien’s world….

@@seanpoore2428 No they do not

@@thodan467 "only a Sith deals in absolutes" with a wide enough breach they definitely could be, and the movie shows that exactly. The only real issue with that specific part was the elves should have never stopped shooting, but once they ran out of arrows thing would play out pretty much exactly as they did

Its like the scene in 300 except rather then just send the guy away and have him join the other side Saruman is like "You cannot serve on the ladders but you CAN be our olympic torch bearer, its a position of great honour! "

Actually, the scene makes perfect sense to me. Saruman clearly knew that when the powder went off, everyone in the mine would be killed. So, he had all of his miners withdraw because they were highly trained specialists that he could use later. Then, once his valuable miners were safely clear, he sent a more expendable berserker in to set off the charge.

@@emmitstewart1921 read the tone dude. This is all a joke. No one cares about your rationalisation

Because while they are larger and stronger, Uruk-Hai are still Orcs. You don't want them accidentally setting off the explosives before they are properly placed.

@@lordpuki1375 That would have been another consideration, especially after watching Grima Wormtongue, who is much smarter than any orc, nearly setting it off by holding his torch near to see it better.

In the book it is additionally said that Helm's Deep had a great store of food prepared so it would take a while to starve them out (even with the number of civilian refugees who found shelter there): "Behind us in the caves of the Deep are three parts of the folk of Westfold, old and young, children and women,' said Gamling. 'But great store of food, and many beasts and their fodder, have also been gathered there.'"

@@fantasywind3923 The amount of ressources doesn't matter. There's lots of historic examples where the attackers besieged the defenders for weeks, months, sometimes even years - the vikings besieged Paris for over a year before backing off. In the battle of Alesia the romans besieged the gauls for months even though they knew that additional gauls where gathering to relief the city and break the siege. What they did instead of attacking was building defences of their own in both directions, towards the city and towards the other direction as well. They knew that the approaching army had no time to besiege the roman defences because they where trying to rescue the already starving people in the city - and the romans where successfull, they defeated the approaching army defending their own fortifications. In the battle of Corfe Castle 30 defenders defeated an attacking force of 350, loosing only 2 men in the battle. The only reason why the Uruk Hai did not besiege Helms Deep is because they're Uruk Hai - they lack the patience to besiege the fortress and also don't value the lives of their troops. What is missing in the movie version of the battle is that the attacking force was not all Uruk Hai though - there was also a sizeable force of human warriors from Dunland.

Orks hungry. Orks fight.

@@HH-hd7nd Caesar got very lucky at the Battle of Alesia. What he did was brilliant, but he was very nearly totally annihilated with all his men. Pompey would have returned a few years later with 10 legions or so to conquer Gaul anyway, but his rival would have been very dead.

Saruman had not the time for a siege, Sauron was on the move

Another thing to remember that the movies don't really make clear is that the Uruk-hai army was meant to challenge Theoden in the field, which would make the pikes invaluable against the primarily cavalry army that Theoden was expected to use, as well as the infantry that had been guarding the Isen Ford. It was only their ineptness that led to Theoden reaching fortifications that made the pikes less useful.

@@matthewhubbard1200 Having the pikes is not the issue. Deploying them in front of the walls in stead of leaving them in the baggage train is the issue.

Actually this is simply due to the movie. In the books the ork army fought against the humans before all of them reached the fortifications. This isn't really shown in the movie.

Yup

Literally came here to say this! The Rohirrim are ALLLLL ABOUT horses/cavalry, and indeed, they DO make a sortee from the keep at the end of the battle! Furthermore, Eomer and Gandalf show up with a whole mess of cavalry. Seems like reasonable foresight too me - and if they hadn’t been blinded during Gandalf and Eomer’s charge, they very well may have done an awful lot of damage to them with said pikes.

Also most of these orcs dont have the finesse or patience to actually learn to use normal bows in close-up combat, a trigger-action weapon is perfect for them.

Came here to say this haha

The TL;DR of this comment section is just that all this stuff makes sense within the lore and this guy is talking about it as if it’s supposed to be accurate, seems a bit silly to me

well according to Scorsese, tossing dwarfs is kinda not a big deal really ....

@@Pman8362 This happens a lot, some expert reviews a movie and critiques it and doesn't assume once that there may be an explanation in the lore, and then the comments are just repeating the same thing.

Context

Rumor has it that the great hero Fred didn't even need a shield. He could surf barefoot down a staircase.

You also have Theoden asking Aragorn, "So much death...What can men do against such wreckless hate?" Implying that an army of men would not be willing to sustain such losses in a single attack during a siege. However, because the orcs are willing to sacrifice far more than men, they can take a fortress in a single very bloody assault.

Saruman also may have been aware of Gandalf going to Eomer for aid which could also explain why he wanted the siege over as fast as possible

Orks don’t March with a retinue of cooks or saw bones they were not forged to wait out a siege but to destroy everything before them without hesitation and before they turn on each other.

Also rapid escalades with ladders were attempted in medieval sieges, if there was a huge time constraint, or if the commander was especially bold, and if that assault failed you could then settle down for a long siege.

@@christ4032 it's called a storm and yeah they were attempted whenever a siege required a quick finish.

And gun powder

That's because the Elves, Wizards and Dunedein keep the West at a pre-industrial, fuedal technology level, artificially sustained by magic and overseen militarily by powerful vassals like Gondor and Rohan.

Wouldnt work in real life. If they were all pikemen faceing you with cav charge is a death senetence.

@@pride2184 It wasn't really ment to work in the story either. Their option was die in the fort or take their chances on an escape. Either decision is pretty bleak. It was a juiced up Gandalf deus ex machinaing that saved the day.

@@chadicvsmaximvslxix6050 aka plot armor sauron won the war

‘Behind us in the caves of the Deep are three parts of the folk of Westfold, old and young, children and women,’ said Gamling. ‘But great store of food, and many beasts and their fodder, have also been gathered there.’

@@pride2184 when the only choices are have everyone die behind the walls of a keep, or die in a calvary sally and possibly have a few make it through to escape on horseback, you tend to take the one where someone might make it out to rally the rest of the military. They knew they were going to probably all die, but with the calvary sally they thought that maybe some would be able to get away and they might possibly kill more uruks with that as well.m It was a last ditch attempt. Even if they took the mountain path escape route, they wouldn't get far before the uruks would catch them, because the Uruks were bred to be heartier then men and would run without need of rest until they had chased them down.

So meta bro

Gold medal winner!

gunpowder, sensitive to heat? thank you for telling us. we would never have known otherwise

Ikr ridiculous!

Thank goodness someone said it

Right?!

get adblocker never see any ads again

@@sebastianmagnus2213 true, but most of us are watching on our cell phones tbh.

Shad on top of the walls madly screaming "MACHICOLATIONS!!!"

Only skeletons are proficient in multi ditch construction and playing woodwind instruments without lip nor lung 🫁

and after digging that ditch, dig another ditch.

Digging is for dwarves, tyvm

In the book.

He is not 8ft tall

@@KingFatty11 2 meters is 6'5", according to Tolkein Gateway Aragorn's official Hight is 6'6''

@@WillemLawyer That is definitely not portrayed in the films very well. He's an absolute lad

Númenóreans are basically a race of Captains America and Batmen. They are well beyond what we would consider human.

@@sithlordzach8418 You mean a race of gigachads.

Also, the sun had come up, even though unlike conventional orcs, the Uruk-hai could move through daylight, it did hamper them. You can see this very clearly when Gandalf calls on the light of the Istari at the same time the sun goes up over the hills in the east and the Uruk pike formation is blinded and stunned by this sheer beam of light, allowing Éomer's cavalry to charge in almost unharmed.

Glad someone said it.

sooo why didn't they do that from the beggining?

Sun only rises once a day is why

@@Vidhur Orcs could move through daylight, they just hated doing it. Thus it could lead to low morale and was avoided where possible. They still did it when necessary, though, such as to repel Faramir’s charge at Osgiliath. Uruks were bred specifically to not have that weakness to sunlight, and in Fellowship of the Ring, the Uruk raiding party had no issues running and fighting in the afternoon.

Song of Ice and Fire did it better. A elf surfing down a flight of stairs taking out armored enemies is nonsense.

@@MrChowbaby69 You mean the same one where they deployed artillery in the field against a horde of ice zombies, with cavalry in front?

@@DrunkLurker different show entirely

​@@DrunkLurker you're mah queen!

Semi-accurate was very kind words for this atrocity, that Jackson one upped himself in his next trilogy does not make this any less ridiculous.

This video literally is an expert acknowledging that most of presented stuff is quite accurate but you still call that atrocity?

@@vicdark8807 The only atrocity is your comment lmao

@@vicdark8807 You must be the guy who likes the Battle of Winterfell in GOT season 8.

@@vicdark8807 What?? I'm not sure what you're say he improved in the next trilogy, but it was NOT the battle scenes. Legolas grabs onto a bat's leg as it's flying by and hangs upside down, shooting a bunch of running orcs square in the head as the bat weaves throughout the battle field in a swarm of bats, and he then manages to kill the bat and somehow perfectly lands with no bruises or even a hair out of place. He also is standing on a bridge, the pillar holding up the bridge breaks so the stone bridge crumbles, as it's falling down the canyon Legolas slows time, and moves in real time jumping up the falling stones and makes it back up to the hill, leaps onto the orc's head and shoves his blade through his brain. But yeah, much more accurate than the battle scenes that a expert says is mostly correct, and the things he said weren't can be explained by the lore most of the time.

Was gonna mention this. Glad it was already stated.

yeah same thing goes for the eagles. they have sentience and super-durability compared to their "modern counterparts"

@@PacMonster0 you've never seen a horse trample something in its way? If thats the bar then real horses can do that.

Feels like Amazon trying to create hate against the OG films....

We all suspend disbelief to enjoy this type of film and accept that there is a fantasy explanation for everything, because it's a parallel universe with it's own rules. On the other hand, watching this video, we accept that Matt's role here is to deliberately look at the scenes and comment on whether they would or could have happened that way in the time when these weapons and tactics were used in reality. Don't we?

Fective though, it seems.

1000% was gonna say this myself but better put cheers!

And keep in mind as well the Uruk-hai are literally months old at this point. they're only bred for war, so they're not going to the smartest, but definitely smarter than a regular orc. and again they're months old, and the orcs aren't known for being the best crafters. they'd been preparing this army for months, so there's no telling how many corners they had to cut to get the armor and weapons ready for battle. just saying though.

Then what did they bring the bomb for? And why did they have ladders and battering rams?

@@mikelastname9444 that was Saruman doing the thinking there. their purpose was to destroy the race of men and they needed to any way they could. so he provided everything he could to his beloved Uruk'hai

I'm kind of baffled that people criticising the orcs having pikes miss something really important that even gave real life military commanders fits and still do. You have tens of thousands of orcs, marching from Isengard with what they can carry. Considering they have to cross miles of land that is protected by cavalry, the pikes make total sense. Because guerilla ambushes are a thing that are demonstrated in this movie. The orcs have no wagons, no supplies, no way to rearm, they use what they have and what they have (many of them are pikes.) Even though this is a huge army, they are intended as a swift moving military force, carrying the bare minimum to allow for speed. Saruman doesn't care how many he loses, as long as they do their job. If all you give someone is a pike and you point them at a battle where they must fight or die, with no reinforcements and no supplies, of course they are going to use the pike. Also the orcs had no way of knowing that the secondary cavalry force was a thing. Saruman knew and Grima knew but they aren't going to bother explaining to the rank and file, especially when there are tens of thousands of them. One of the biggest problems with reactions like this, is that the reactors have knowledge the participants in the movie don't and yet expect them to react as if they do. Logistics have led to more military defeats in history than just about any other consideration.

Lol peter Jackson sacrificed much less “realism” than did Tolkien in his books

I'd somewhat agree, however it would have to be pretty flimsy, like copper grade armor or something. Tod's workshop did a lot of tests on various types of armor. Arrows really are just twigs when faced with plate.

Can’t we also assume that elvish arrow tips would have greater penetrative power, just like everything else they make?

@@stephenlucerne1052 he did a test of brit longbow vs french heavy knight steel breastplate. Its possible/likely the weapons and armor of uruks was iron, and seeing HOW it was made, cast iron.

@@doe6974 even if it were cast iron it would have to be very very flimsy (riddled with impurities) for an arrow to penetrate. Pickup any old cheap frying pan made from iron, you still wont be able to shoot an arrow through it. Aluminium maybe. But not iron.

@@stephenlucerne1052 But an elf firing a magical elvish arrow would probably go through a frying pan?

it always bothers me that Legolas is up to 17 in the first few minutes of the battle (book and film), and by the end of the night barely doubles that with 41 orcs killed

@@svenlauke1190 He got those 17 kills while the Uruks were charging and he could use his bow before they reached the walls. Then it became a melee where the Uruks tough armor and shields probably made it much tougher.

@@geechyguy3441 still...41 kills for the entire night? and we only see him use the knives once, and the bow right until the end.

True but it looked ridiculous, like a (american) football player running for the end zone & diving over the line to make the touchdown.

It also wasn't like the torch carrier did anything fancy to light the explosives (like using a fuse). He just straight up yeeted himself along with the torch into the mines creating an instant explosion. Seems like you want to keep the mines and fire away from each other until you actually want it to blow up.

Best not forget river rafting atop dwarves in barrels in the hobbit! 😂

@@codykennedy8359 We don't talk about that.

The way the books describe legolas' movements and senses these things are right on brand

you think legolas couldn't pull that off? Dude doesn't even sink into snow when he walks and can see for miles.

no doubt, my fav of all times, hard to change it for me!

Although all the nerds hated the Jackson movies as well back in the day. Even Christopher Tolkien hated them.

The gold standard

​@@Kuhmuhnistische_Partei Hum, no, absolutely not. Christopher Tolkien did indeed not like them, when you look at his comments, it seems that he mainly disliked the commercialisation of his fathers work. But most fans of the books absolutely loved them. There were minor complaints, but by far the consensus back then was that it was an excellent adaption.

@@slome815 Maybe most, but many of us didn't like the movies, or what they did to characters and sensible plot.

So why did they bring them against the walls?

The horsemen wouldn't ride out to meet them. Thant's the point of the keep - stay behind the walls, so there's no expectation of engaging mounted troops. Once inside the walls, the area is more constricted than on open ground making pikes unwieldy - slow/inefficient in my unprofessional opinion..

@@michaelhanford8139 the horsemen did ride out to meet them at the end, and they always had to be ready to contend with the rest of Rohans forces potentially coming and attacking them. plus, you can help clear a breach of defenders by pushing them back with polearms. once inside a narrow part of the keep, yes the polearms lose effectiveness, but they can still have their uses.

@@Rembanspellsong Hey, you know where the pikes weren't? When they rode out to meet them! So basically, the pikes were there during the useless times, but not there when it might have been useful.

@@NestedQuantifier They only charged as far as indoors and the bridge. These were not places suited for pikemen. Had help not arrived, they'd have to face pikes on the outside.

Well that looks a little silly, but we need to give some credit - Legolas has a superhuman agility, so considering this, it's not that implausible (what would be the practical point of that stunt is another story). What bothers me more with those movies is an incredible lack of basic economy besides Shire - what do they eat for example? Rohan is shown to have at least some wheat fields and villages, but Gondor has absolutely no agriculture, no villages, not even ruins of them, nothing - food is the last thing in the world you want to import. Even today when we have all the technology, food is made locally whenever possible.

That means another vomit inducing Legolas shield slide tho …

@@ianpatrickclarksr4074 Now now, he tarzan'd the trunk. He did not ride the shield down stairs and then kickflip it into a Southron's chest.

He did it. Compared it to Hannibal and aside from Arwen bringing one down with a sword, he loved it

Thanks 🙂

Idk man Sean Bean was still killing orcs after multiple arrows

@@andrewc31394 Maybe he would be doing so after multiple shotgun blasts too, you never know

@@andrewc31394 I dont get your comment sorry

@@royalecrafts6252Andrew is referring to The Fellowship of the Ring, where Sean Bean's character Boromir was shot with 3 arrows before he went down. Seems like a bit of an inconsistency between the 2 movies (in that one the arrows weren't very strong while in this one they go straight through armour).

@@callumpears1523 Boromir doesn't have normal armor like the Urukai. He has plot armor.

Read the fine print

Ehhh even with that with how they showed it in the film the pikes where still mostly down and the fact every single warrior had a pike the horses would have gotten killed. Now in th extend edition and the books the Uraika get killed by a forest that kind of appears and that's what kills most of them. But the cavalry in all reality would have been shredded trying to punch through thousands of pikes especially when there horses are not very armored.

@@dannycampbell5255 In the book the orcs just have spears, not pikes, and don't have time to set spears in formation since Theoden's charge is unexpected and at close range. Plus other things going on.

@@dannycampbell5255 The Huorns only killed the retreating Uruks. They didn't enter the main battlefield. And the sunlight isn't just blinding to the orcs, it's a HUGE demoralizer to their kind. Faced with a courageous, unrelenting enemy pouring out of the sunrise? They broke in fear.

@@Swiftbow the uruks don't have that weakness. they are fine fighting in sunlight, but they sacrificed their superior night vision for it.

Also keep in mind that this army marched from Isengard to attack Edoras, not Helm's Deep. King Theoden retreated to the fortress because it was much more defensible with the small force available to him. The Uruk-hai were prepared for a pitched battle on an open plain and storming a hill city, not a siege in the mountains

@@adamuffoletto7869 Very true

Then the army would place spikes, like Henry V did at agnicourt. Or place their pikes at the flank, to defend against a cavalry attack. But no, a real army would not be taking their pikes up the ladders, nor would they carry them until they reached the ladders and then drop them on a pile or something like that.

No, they didn't. And they certainly wouldn't have brought them against the walls. The walls aren't suddenly going to become horses.

"For Frodo!" - charges off to the movies

Those pikes tips look very Killy

Gandalf timed the charge with the rising sun. Or possibly he used some magic... it's not the first time he used the sun as a weapon against an enemy. (It's also how he took out Tom, Bert, and William.)

The best fantasy or medieval battle ever filmed!? That is a bold statement.

Yeah, it definitely does. But typically, bows were kept in oiled leather cases until the very last minute, quivers almost always have oiled leather flaps, bows and bowstrings were heavily waxed, all to make them as effective as possible for as long as possible. Eventually, they dont work all that well, but archers would use every trick they could to keep themselves in the game as long as they could. With the fact that the battle is vastly time compressed for the sake of the movie, they would have definitely been effective for the short period of time represented. Source: Used to do medieval style archery, and am a big military history buff. :)

Archers also carried spare bowstrings, often in a waterproof pouch, so they could swap out if one broke or got stretched.

The true arc was not telling the elf

Ahaha. We don't have enough iron and we can't provide everyone with swords, but we did have enough iron to equip tens of thousands of legionnaires with heavy cast-iron armor.

No Pennsylvania steel in Mordor??

You need somewhat decent quality materials to make plate in the first place, if they weren't available the Uruk hai would just be wearing chainmail and leather, like we see with the orcs at minas tirith

Not to mention, as he said several times in the video, the Urukhai and orc troops are largely disposable and they don't mind heavy casualties, so they probably did have cheap, mediocre armor

@@zackmoon592 Sounds like Japan

They cast their swords. It makes sense they cast their armor as well.

Arrows piercing breastplate is a hollywood fabrication, although your scenario is obviously plausible.

@@ianpatrickclarksr4074 it's been said in the series that saruman was spending inordinate amounts of money importing artisan foods like cheese and the long bottom leaf in barrels from the Shire and surrounding areas, is it possible that he may have run out of money to give high quality or even medium quality armor to his troops because of his crippling pipe weed addiction? Could this even explain his resounding loss

It’s because Orks glory in death so they don’t use fuses. Fuses are for manthings.

So… Don’t light the torch prematurely?

Didn't want to draw attention to the bomb?

Yes exactly. And I’m sure their swords having hooked ends was meant for them to hook onto the horsemen and pull them down as well

Pikes Rule!

As many times as you chose to get ads.

Real horses yes but Rohan horses are stated as being far superior to modern breeds. The best of them (shadowfax) is highly intelligent and tireless. Their abilities don't reflect reality.

@@anaussie213 thank you for reminding me. Point well made.

if you want to see non gifted horses with riders attempting a comparable descent into a river check out some vids of the Omak Suicide Race.

@@ianpatrickclarksr4074 Not really comparable.

That's a lot, its like some weak crossbows

Pikes Rule!

It kinda looked like an Olympic event.

Ceremonial foreshadowing