How can such a controversial plane be so COOL LOOKING? ======================== SUPPORT ME ON PATREON! www.patreon.com/fightertales Hellion's Website and Patreon: www.ratsnest.me/ patreon.com/hellionmanor Discord: discord.gg/XFQPftSxNm =========================== Music Used: The Chronicler “On The Brink” Fighter Tales Vol. 1 album out now! kzfaq.info/love/gnl... -Armory -Deep Strike -Interdiction -M.A.D. -On the Flight Deck Karl Casey Music

mfw i suddenly fall into a *”temporary”* F-104 addiction and every channel starts posting about it

A Canadian goose will go through the engine, angrily look at its slightly singed feathers and then fuck you up.

I love the fact that they gave it a space-age name like the "starfighter." Seeing how, when you get down to it, a spaceship is just a shitty missile with air conditioning. By contrast, the F-104 was an excellent missile with shitty air conditioning.

Kelly Johnson was so good at his job that one of his bosses said "That damned Swede can SEE AIR."

As a Canadian I can say we would retire the f-18 if the air force had the funding

The Starfighter is what it is. Designed in the 50's, it was the Airforce's hot rod. It was designed to scramble, hit 25,000 ft in a minute, vector in on a target 150 miles away, kill it, and be wheels down back at base, all in 20 minutes or less. Nothing else did that at the time. It first flew in the late 50's. The fact that it served into the 21st century says it all. Cheap, fast, and unforgiving. Even by modern fighter standards, the 104 is almost unmatchable in acceleration and top speed. Not bad for an obsolete 1950's jet.

In RDAF service, a more apt aircraft for the title of "Widowmaker" would be the F-100. F-100 Losses 1959-1982 (38) F-104 Losses 1964-1986 (12)

The trinity of military history chanells rides well today

In regards to the bribery scandal, when it came to Japan's part, it was not limited to the Starfighter alone. It also involved the Lockheed L-1011 Tri-Star airliner for All Nipon Airways and, believe it or not, the Yakuza.

It was like every Kelly Johnson plane. It was incredible at what it was designed to do, but that comes at a cost. Especially when considering the limitations of technology at the time.

The bit with LazerPig really cracked me up. I hope you guys cover the Victory Day Parade again this year. Assuming they do one and the amount of comedic content it provided.

I remember that the Italian pilots of the Spillone (Italian nickname for the 104) spoke really well about it, I remember that they said that it was an airplane that needed all your attention and didn't want any kind of error, but it was also an airplane that gave you a lot of satisfaction. Italy had even upgraded the 104 to be able to mount the Sparrow missiles. Well it remained in service for a long time and did not cause all the problems that the Germans had. The Spillone is very respected in Italy and those who speak badly of the 104 are very influenced by the Germans. I remember in 2022 hearing that the Italian 104 pilots of the 23em Gruppo in 2000 (I don't remember the year) had managed to practice with the German MiG-29 pilots, and had even managed to defeat them. I respect it a lot as an aircraft, I find it an excellent interceptor fighter, and a nice rocket.

I had a grandfather in the RCAF. Thousands of hours flying the CF-104 and multiple accidents in them. Never once did any of them call the 104 "widowmaker". In fact, most of them loved to fly the plane because, and I quote, "it was just a fun time". All of them had stories about losing friends around them. But the thing was a lot of these crashes came from human error or "controlled flights into terrain". The one thing I wish I could have asked them was how they fit their massive titanium balls in the cockpits

In Germany the many losses were mostly due to insufficient pilot and maintenance training and the fact that in the early days many of the planes were not kept in hangars but outside in our bad weather. The losses got significantly less once these problems were corrected.

You guys all coordinated today, didnt you? I appreciate the depth of content.

Finally I will get justice for my boy

Look, if the F-104 is good enough to successfully intercept the USS Enterprise (NCC-1701), then it's gotta be a pretty damn good plane.

"Darts helped win a lot of wars." -James May (paraphrased)

It was thought that an upward launching ejector seat wouldn't get the pilot clear of the 104's tall T-tail, especially at high speed. It was thought that the downward launch would prevent the "rapid unscheduled disassembly" of the pilot. Since it was designed for use at high altitude and zero-zero ejection seats weren't available during it's design, it was inconceivable that a jet would need ejection so close to the ground.

In Italy we call it informally "spillone" meaning "pin"/"tiepin"

When the airport in Ottawa was opened, some 104's were sent from the US to help celebrate, And during the flyover one went super sonic and shattered every window on the building

I'd say the biggest problem with the F-104 is the same problem as every fighter in the Century series: They were all standing next to the F-4 Phantom.

I also have an unreasonable appreciation for the F-104 Starfighter. It's performed exactly as asked, although that unfortunately wasn't what was needed. My favorite nickname for the Starfighter was "Erdnagel". Literally translates to "Earth Nail", but it more accurately it's "Tent Peg". Speaking of favorites, one of my favorite things about Kelly Johnson's planes is that most of them look like they belong in Battletech.

I'll always hold a grudge against Lockheed and their shoddy ahh lawn dart. Not because it was a "deathtrap", but because it robbed us of the Grumman F11F-1F. RIP Super Tiger.

My granddad was an aeronautical engineer at a university in west germany at the time and claimed to have inspected the component that controls the nozzle for the F-104s engine. He acclaimadly opened up this box of goodies against orders from on high and found that the wires inside were all not insulated. Which meant that, if the jet flew through clouds, moisture would get into the box and cause it to short out, opening the nozzle and leading to a loss of thrust and, likely, the aircraft. He told me this little stunt apparently got him fired from that job and he moved on to work at an airline instead. Though, if true, there's a decent chance this was not even Lockheed's fault and could have been corner-cutting by the west german manufacturers as well. I say acclaimed because, sadly, he's not longer with us and some of his tales were hard to believe or somewhat contradictory.

In italian service the unofficial name of the F104 for the crew was "Lo Spillone", The Big Needle. Apparently, by talking with an ex pilot, the name for the ground crew was "Lo Spaccaculi", the ass buster, because of the very sharp wing edges that would cause a lot of damage to careless bystanders. The Italian F104's served well past their time, but there was nothing that could replace them in the role of scramble ready fighters. In a country that at the time essentially bordered with several URSS aligned neightbours being able to go from cold to in the air in 3 minutes was more important than high agility and longer endurance. And the later Italian built variants fixed a few issues that plagued the early 104's, mainly by adding two ventral fins, fixing some fault that would cause asymmetric flap deployment and improving the avionics. Legend says that the ASA prototype, when testing the new doppler radar, managed to get a lock on a van speeding on a highway.

YES YEEEEEEES FINALLY SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS THE F104 MORE THAN JUST "HAHA SHIT PLANE CAUSE GERMANY KEPT CRASHING AND CANT TUUUUURN"

My grandfather worked for Lockheed as a ramp mechanic during the F-104 development program. He loved his time with the plane, though in fairness it nearly took his friend's life and failing that nearly took his arm. His friend was under the nose working on something and my grandfather heard a series of noises that he knew were coming from the ejection system. Noticing that the safety pins for said system were not in he immediately knocked his friend to the side. Good thing too because the seat went off at that moment missing his friend but cutting a gash in my grandfather's arm. He kept the arm and it healed quite well, he wore that scar with pride as his friend lived to go home to his family.

BANG! "God Damn't missed the fucker!" That and the bit at the end with Lazerpig were perfect, Falcon :D Seriously, now, enjoyed the look at the F-104. Always has been a lovely and very 'jet age' looking plane. I've always had a soft spot for its camouflaged colored version from the Luftwaffe. Appreciate the insight into the losses of the West Germans and how training played a role in that. It's something you don't hear talked about with F-104. The F-104 pilot that was shot down by the PLAAF fighter; how long was he a 'guest' of the PRC? It'd be interesting to read more about PLAAF operations in Vietnam. I would love to see a video on the MiG-23. It's one of those Soviet jets that I sort of dig the looks for, but I don't know a whole lot about it other than it was considered a pretty poor aircraft. Great work as always, Falcon :)

Also the Canadians primarily used it in both conventional and tactical nuclear strike roles at low level

The 104 is my favorite of the Century Series. I love the look, and it is just speed incarnate. My dad loves the 105. More bombs than even God can hold, and fast enough on the deck to outrun the Devil.

0:19 You can hear the bullet impacting and the sonic boom it makes *before* you hear the gunshot. Amazing attention to detail!

If I could own and fly any jet I choose, id probably pick one of these or maybe a f106 delta dart

“Should have put an IFF system in this piece of junk. Should’ve built it to turn too.” My sister in steel, it’s an F-104. The only people in Strangereal capable of that feat are the fucking Belkans, and only if you agree to being replaced by a fucking V2 warhead!

Just worth mentioning the f model sabre could chase down a mig in the climb. But the real killer app was of course its advanced gun sight especially towards the end of the war.

My Dad was statioed at Sheppard AFB in the early 60's. As a small boy I was amazed? Astounded? Awestruck? when pairs or finger 4's of F-104's would pass over our house as they went supersonic gleaming in the sun flying what looked like 6 inches apart. So freaking cool. 5 year old me loved it, grownups not so much I think.

I love how Martin baker did so poorly in aircraft manufacturing that they had to swap over to making ejection seats instead.

You know I feel rather vindicated. I’ve been explaining to my chums for years that the F-104 was a plane that demanded respect From it’s pilots. Oh and that take into account it’s a 1950s design that was a first generation super sonic aircraft. She got the bad rep due to the high landing speed and the original ejection seat

Honestly, when you mentioned the unrecoverable flatspins, i was hoping you'd show the video of Chuck Yeager getting his F-104 into a flatspin from 100,000ft and the way he nearly recovered from it using his drag chute

Did not expect laserpig, I laughed pretty hard

There is no need to defend the F104. It was designed as a specialist, a high altitude intercepter of bombers at a time before intercontinental missles when bombers at high altitude were the main threat. It was built to be fast, with a high climb rate, it has no weight carrying capacity and it has a large turn radius because it didn't need them for it's mission. It's not the 104s fault that later people tried to use it as a bomber or fighter, with rather underwhelming success. It was never built with strafing targets on the ground or carrying bombs in mind. That's like hitching a Thoroughbred race horse to a plough and then complaining that it's a shitty horse. In fact, NASA used it for exeriments and as a chase airplane quite successfully.

Ah P1 my beloved

3 minutes in, you you nailed the ethos of the starfighter on the head. It was NOT conceived as an interceptor. It was a Day fighter, designed to do to early 50's migs what the mig 15/17 did to the F86... Only even harder. An energy fighter that would use slashing attacks from on high with its advanced 20mm rotary cannon - swoop down, make a pass, extend in the vertical...rinse, and repeat. It's design was based 100% on dogfighting experience in korea. Every ace interviewd by johnson asked for three things: more speed, a serious rate of climb, and a hard hitting, fast shooting gun.

My country used both Canadair and Lockheed produced F-104G's & TF-104G's, CF-104 & CF-104D, from around 1965 to 1986, with surplus G's variants being transferred to Taiwan. With us modifying the CF-104's to our standards Said country is Denmark. We had a few F-104 crashes (12), but we only lost 6 pilots, due to factors such as only allowing experienced pilots to fly it and the Martin-Baker seats. Anyway yapping aside!!! Love your content Falcon ❤

Loved the video falcon,the spillone the italian nickname for the Starfighter is still iconic in italy aviation culture,and also i suggest for whoever love the Starfighter the video F 104 storia di un mito a documentary made by the Italian air force,at the beginning they interview one of the italian test pilot that tried the Starfighter in the 1960s,could be interesting, anyway love your passion for aviation Falcon keep going!!✈️✈️

Great video! I totally agree that the F104 had its short comings but over-all was a pretty decent aircraft that fullfilled its general roles well, especially with it being used so much and being put even into ground-attack roles. Would love to see you cover the Mig-23 btw, I'll stay tuned :)

Geez, lazerpig is showing up in everyone's videos. I love it! Also love how unhinged he is, lol.

I’ve been waiting for this Video! Thanks Falcon!

Last year I actually wrote a historic study on the german F104 crashes as part of a seminar in my history major and compared them to other airplanes of the time my conclusion was that when compared to single engine airplanes designed in the 50s it had very average crash rates every 6500 flight hours or so however when compared to more modern jets like the F-4 it falls short (F-4 had a crash every 20k flight hours) also as you said in the video, a large number of crashes where pilot errors I actually did the math based on my sources it it was: • 42,9 % where downed from pilot error • 40.6 % where downed from technical issues • 14,4 % got downed from outside factors such as bird strikes or flying fragments from ground attack practice • 2,0 % got destroyed on the ground (like burned up from a mistake in refueling) also what I did I looked at the data in the 2 halfes of its operational time in 1961 - 1974 we had 188 crashes of which: • 49,4 % (93 F-104) crashed from technical issues • 40,9 % (77 F-104) crashed from pilot error • 5,3 % (10 F-104) outside sources • 4,2 % (8 F-104) got destroyed on the ground 1975 - 1989 had 105 losses of which: • 49,0 % (51 F-104) pilot error • 26,6 % (28 F-104) technical issues • 24,7 % (26 F-104) outside sources • 0 % (0 F-104) destroyed on the ground this kind of shows that the ground personell learned to identify technical errors on the airplane and that the human is the biggest factor because quite a few of what I listed as outside source can also be chalked up to pilot error when flying to low through the cloud of fragments you just made in a strafing run

Flying the F-104 is about as close as you're ever likely to get to saddling up a jet engine and giving it the spurs.

I'm just glad that you're doing a video on it, troubled as it may have been it's one of my all time favorite jets since I was a kid.

Great video man, keep it up

F-104 is the best thing ever because so years ago me and my dad built and painted a model of one.

I love the F-104, glad your doing a vid on it

Yeah, honestly the whole Witwenmacher deal was more a case of the Luftwaffe following in the long German tradition of misclassifying an interceptor as a multirole bomber and overloading the airframe to the point of endangering the pilot.

Your videos are rapidly creating a massive interest in planes for me. Always had a bit of interest, but these videos are so good and interesting!

Love the video :)

heard a rumor that a JASDF F-104J claimed a “kill” on a F-15 during exercise, not sure if anyone heard this rumor too

Recently lost my grandfather who flew CF-86’s and CF-104’s as part of 439 Squadron “Fangs of Death” in Ottawa, Canada then England and France and finally Germany after being disbanded in late ‘63 and reformed early ‘64. Retired Brig-Gen Paul Argue. He knew a few pilots who died during training. My mum remembers those as sad days around the house and bases. He called them “Darts” and adamantly detested it’s description as a “Widow Maker”, he always maintained that you just simply needed to be better than your instincts, something he admitted is very difficult for pilot breeds. We still have his flight log detailing training missions with nuclear bombs (can’t remember if they were B-43’s or B-57’s). Really interesting man as he was once the youngest licensed pilot in Canada which greatly helped his introduction into the military after years of reading about WW2 aces as a young guy but always made it known he was willing to do his duty yet didn’t like the idea of hurting people. Retired and operated a helicopter flight training school. His son (my uncle) carried the mantle and flew CF-18 sorties with 441 Squadron “Silver Fox” during Operation Echo in Kosovo. They don’t make ‘em like they used to.

22:18 And I can guess why Spain had never lost a Starfighter… Because some of their pilots probably flew I-16s until late 1950s. If you can fly I-16 - you can fly anything.

This was a great video. Hoping to see one on the F 15. Probably one of the best aircraft we ever produced

The image at 20:25 has been my phone's lock screen for about two years, now. It's just so damn cool.

I am excited for this. Thank you for the history

Good work. Subscribed.

IMO the F-104 was a decent idea as an intereptor/boom and zoom aircraft but using it for low level ground attack was a terrible idea and frankly, most of what it did could've be done better by F-4 Phantoms if countries had been willing to spend the money. Also, did @Falcon's Fighter Tales try to MK Ultra Laser Pig?

Thank you, wonderfull video.

I did some research into the F-104 for a paper I wrote at uni. The problem with the F-104, as I saw it, was the poor ergonomics coupled with high landing airspeed and the angle of attack issues you mentioned. Not a forgiving plane for rookies.

In greece the f104 was nicknamed "crybaby" due to its unique sound. The type operated here from 1963-1993. We recieved 150 aircraft in total (some were only used for spare parts) while losing 21 of them. We even tried fitting them with laser guided bombs.

Good stuff

"One last Walkaround" great documentary about an accomplished pilot. His stories about the 104 types he flew, including the rocket tail version, and his time flying with the Germans watching the crazy stuff they were doing is verification that the problem with the 104 was the man sitting _inside_ the missile. Great video. Great plane.👍🏻

Gonna spin my Robert Calvert - Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters record after this! Don't know what kind of music you like yourself, but Robert Calvert being a crucial part of Hawkwind's history makes it all that more interesting to me! And I love psychedelic rock otherwise too! This album having other legendary musicians on it like Lemmy Kilmister and Nick Turner just crowns the work. Chuck Yeager ejecting in the movie The Right Stuff also spotted.

You nafo crew, the pig and animarchy, knew what yall were doing when uploading at the exact same bloody time, love it

The F-104 was in use for many NATO countries for over 40 years, that speaks volumes. Designed as a '1 trick pony' it adapted darn well to it's new duties in it's deployment.

*USAF* "Hey, Canada, you guys dumped that Arrow thing, want some 104s? *RCAF* "Nah bro, we'll take some of those 101s..." *USAF* "Uhm...k...why do you have an order in for 104s?" *RCAF* "Sure looks like a ground attack aircraft to me!" *USAF* "What the fu-" *RCAF* *STREAKS IN AT 100 FEET OFF THE GROUND*

These first post-war jets are my favorite period of aircraft. They're objectively horrible, but at the end of the day nobody really knew what they were supposed to be building yet. We ended up with some WW2 fighter planes with jet engines, and some rediculous technology demonstraters. None of them flew all that well since we didn't fully understand aerodynamics yet.

I used to work at an air museum, and one of the other volunteers was an ex West German F-104 pilot. He was the coolest dude to talk with. He explained how awesome it was to fly in such great detail. I miss talking with him, i hope he's still around

I watched this entire video and didn't learn a single thing about refueling, poopie suits, or corn detasseling!

Imo the 104 was great at what it was designed for. Flying fast, climbing like a homesick angel, and launching missiles at bombers. I think the problem was that the controlling users were asking too much of the airframe.

Great introduction with LazerPig, will be waiting for the combined video on the Mig-23 (allegedly)

As soon as the video started I thought, lazerpig would love this. Then boom.

Loved that LazerPig Cameo

I’m lucky enough to know a few CF 104 Vets, I work at a museum, I always ask “do you have a favorite plane?” The answer is always “Starfighter”

"20 years ago in 2004" HOW FUCKING DARE YOU

How can anyone not love such an atompunk fighter?

The Mod for Xenonauts 1 that lets you throw F-104s at UFOs has some pretty funny flavor text in the Encyclopedia for the 104

Volunteer at a Canadian museum with a CF-104 here! One of the other volunteers was a starfighter pilot and later instructor for the RCAF, he hates it when people refer to it as the widowmaker. What I find funny about him is that he flew that mach 2 plane for the majority of his flying career but now at the museum (our starfighter is a static display) all his flying is now done in a SE5A, which tops out at around... 150km/h... Rumour has it that he enjoys flying the SE5A more though! (Although I haven't personally asked him directly)

I care about cool factor as much as effectiveness. In that the F-104 shines

kinda want a sequel to this where it's the Falcon and the 'Pig, drunkenly reviewing episodes of Sex & the City.

Lazerpig you were just a little off to the left

During a landing in spanish service, one F-104 collided through an electric pole with one of it's wings, cutting it in half, denting the wing slightly only to be repaired later and flown just a week later, i believe they called that specific plane, "the razor" but im not sure.

Hi Falcon. I'm nearing the end of Kelly Johnson's autobiography and he too attributes many of the F-104's "incidents" to lack of sufficient training. Not surprising that he would say that, but he makes his point well, and so do you. I'm sure you've read it but I'm really enjoying it.

Lmao love the lazerpig joke

Gvlad does a great job with the F-104 in Digital Flight Simulator. Used in it's envelope it is a superb aircraft.

There's a good museum in Europe. They have almost every jet engine you can imagine. And it was astonishing to see how advance the f104 engine was for its time.

I can never see this plane and NOT hear the refueling theme from the Starfighters movie (as immortalized by MST3K). It is just...seared... into my brain.

After your MiG-23 video, would a Tomcat one be in order?

Great well informed video. As a three year old I've a vague memory of sitting in the cockpit of a F104G on the line at Fokker. My dad was an aironautical engineer R&D Fokker. I BTW predict that Kelly Jhonson will in the future fall as the genious designer. He wasn't artistic. He was a great organiser bringing artistic engineers together. I totaly agree with your further analysis of the F104 G. I do however believe that for the Dutch at least the Mirage III and the F5 were considered. I always wondered why the Saab Draken wasn't a contender then but I guess the Swedes didn't have any engines like the French. The French then still fell short of what the F104G had as the ace engine. In the Netherlands Prince Bernhard was also implicated in the bribing by Lockheed. As a clear day clear night mass air to air fighter using the correct tactics in its day it was ace and lateron even safe provided sufficient training. As you correctly point out Japan and Italy using them that way. Slicing hit and run attacks avoiding dog fights. As a low to high level fast photo recon platform and tactical nuclear bomber it was also very good. The small wings made an easy ride low level with the F104 being damn fast. These were in fact the roles we Dutch used them for. Once a Dutch F104 lost its way and flew into the GDR. Whilst trying to figure out whhere he was he noticed two Migs beside him. He hit the throttles and turned due West. Getting alarms going off in NATO not being able to intercept. Turning off the afterburner when spotting he was back in the Neterlands by recognising terrain features. 1:43 Later buying NF5 for gaining experience and clear day fighter bombing. As an alweather and even clear day mass fighterbomber the F104 was not on par with other contempory fighterbombers. Too costly, too dangerious, too few bombs and in bad weather not as accurate.

I just happened to see a F-104C at the New England Air Museum so watching this after seeing one definitely is nice

18:50 It was their dealing with the Yakuza that would really get an electric sign smashed over their heads.