3 x Herschel IR heaters installed in the kitchen. We also have the original underfloor heating but as you'd expect UFH = slow response. Match that to an unpredictable day to day life schedule, we opted to stick 3 IR heaters on the ceiling for "short boost" requirements. These are linked via Tuya to HA. HA knows when we're in / out, day / night, current temp, target temp and switches the IR panels on / off if required based on a set of rules only if the house is occupied. We like them because a) they provide boost heat, b) the API linked with HA automations = seamless operation, and c) they're tucked away in the ceiling ... but would we have them as the prime source of heat for the house? Definitely not. I'd be off my rocker! Horses for courses... for this application, they're 100% Tony the Tiger!

Totally agree with your criticism. I was extremely disappointed that Roberts didn’t challenge some of the BS he was being presented with concerning the heat pump comparison.

Yes agree with all your arguments. I live in a cold flat and cannot get decent insulation installed, and having trouble finding anywhere to put a heat pump. I have a 700w infrared heater in my bathroom which is fantastic and the only way I can enjoy a shower on a winter morning without freezing. So I think there's a small part they can play as targeted secondary source. Please keep up the good work

I just rewatched the FC video and i want to clear a few things up. He didnt deflect the question of running costs compared to gas. In fact he outright said "we cannot compete with gas" he also pointed out that new gas boilers wont be alllowed to be fitted beyond 2025 but the video was published two years ago and that may have changed. It was also stated, by Robert I believe, that you would not save by ripping out a gas system and putting in infrared but you would be doing your bit for the planet. The comparison tests which were carried out sounded as though they were conducted under realistic conditions with an average outside winter temperature. He sounded as surprised as anyone that the heat pump performed so much less well than promised but from what I can gather from the examples I've seen a low COP is not unusual in winter and this claim of 4x is only true in warmer weather, anything higher in summer only. Regarding your comment on what he ostensibly said about the number of homes for whom a heat pump would not work. He did not say that; he said that for 90% of homes a heat pump is "not practical." Now from my own situation I can confirm that is the case.. it isn't practical for various reasons, some down to my personal circumstances and some due to the physical state of the property. I dont know where he got the figure from and yes he should have been challenged but he did not state that a heat pump would not actually work in 90% of properties. I thought the statement that because air is not being heated then meeting cold walls and condensating thus creating damp made sense. If the structure of the room is gradually heated over time then damp will not start and will likely be eliminated if present. This makes sense until you think about your experience with shading but although i accept you may be right and unheated spots may become damp I wonder if you had the right size and placement of the panels you used, that seems to be crucial when designing a system.. in the same way that a heat pump only works well when the design is good. It seems that as with all these things solar panels and battery storage are key to alleviating higher running costs. All those who are involved with selling IR point out the lack of service costs and longevity of the product. This seems to be a valid and not insignificant point to consider when looking at high running costs. So, no I dont think these people are being disingenuous, nor do I think their claims are dangerous to the cause of renewables. No more than the plethora of incompetent and uncaring installers of heat pumps. In fact I'd go so far as to say they are much more dangerous to the cause and will continue to be if some sort of standard of responsibilty is not enforced.

in my office i have a 300w deep IR heater. its very good. feels like a hot sunny day outside a small window. very directional and i wish it sensed me to switch on....as its a waste of power to leave ir heaters on all the time.

I believe as part of an overall solution to moving from gas or oil heating systems they could have a part, a small one but still viable. The ASHP will be the main think to use and getting people to understand that your whole building becomes the energy store, so all rooms should be heated equally to the same temperature.The ASHP will work well in any building, the difference being that an uninsulated one could pay 30% more. Or putting it the other way, if you have an ASHP it could be the similar price as gas due to the higher prices of electricity. But then adding insulation later will be able to lower your running costs. In my experience the house is always warm and comfortable. The difference than standard gas is that instant high heat to warm up a cold space as the heating had not been on for x hours. Infrared for a small room or as an additional heat source may work, but as you say people must understand the line of sight and the description of a camp fire is a great one!

If it's 113% efficient then why aren't they being used as perpetual motion machines?!

IR Mirrored panel is FANTASTIC in the Bathroom…..everywhere else….low temp ASHP for me

I understand your criticism, I certainly won't install whole house IR heating. I work from home and our house is heated by gas, I want to switch to a heat pump system but I've not done so yet (mainly due to all the conflicting information). However in the winter of 2022 I bought a portable 900W IR panel and sat it behind me where I work. My reasoning was that even at 100% efficient, it was cheaper than heating the entire house when it's just me here during the day. In the winter of 2023 I found a smaller 150W under desk IR heater that is adjustable and I'd say I never run it above 100W. It shines its heat onto the tops of my legs and the effect is stunning. So this is my issue with heat pumps, people tell me that the best way to heat the house with a heat pump is to keep it running at low temperatures for longer. They also say that zoning hammers efficiency, so if I only want to heat one small room during the day, then that heat pump big enough to heat my entire house is going to be cycling. So sure I could leave the heat pump running heating the entire house all day and the efficiency would be better than the max 100% IR panel, but I'd be actually consuming a lot more. So I see a mix of systems as being a better way to go if total usage is the main driving factor and not efficiency. While the whole house is occupied it makes sense to use the most efficient system possible and that is likely a A2A or A2W heat pump. When the house is not fully occupied then IR is a quick way to feel warm locally.

I liked the fully charged show / everything electric earlier on before it became very corporate and turned into a large enterprise. They now seem to be the promotion channel for all sorts of random companies and promoting their shows, the magic has gone for me and I no longer subscribe. Their subscriber figures are just over a million but it's grown very slowly over the last couple of years.

Completely agree with you, I put two on the ceiling of my office and ended up with crispy eyelids ~ ripped it out and took it to the tip.

I have both an ASHP and a Herschel IR panel. The ASHP does all the "heavy lifting" for heating and hot water. The IR panel is a 500w heater/towel rail in the bathroom. Heat pumps are very good at heating large spaces for Long times at constant temperature. The IR panel is only used for a short period of time in the morning when we are having showers etc.. It's very good at producing higher temps very quickly for a short period of time, which is exactly what we want in the bathroom in the morning and which the heat pump is not designed to do. It's not that the Herschel panel is a poor product, to the contrary it suits it's use case very well, it's just a pity the company don't just own up to that, market it for specific niche use cases, and stop trying to market is as a universal solution to low carbon space heating. Its more than a pity, it' is in fact an absolute disgrace, that the make these absurd, scurrilous attacks on heat pumps, it shows very bad faith on their part in terms of the push to decarbonize our energy use. I'm sure Fully charged/Everything Electric mean well but they are very naive in how they assess and report on companies in the "decarbonization" space. They desperately want to help these companies to advance the cause of decarbonization, and this leads them to have a blind spot when it comes to occasions when these companies behave badly. For example, they continued to support the old Electric Highway long after they had proved themselves not capable of expanding the EV charging network on motorway service stations at the rate that was required but blocked anyone else from doing so with the exclusive contracts with service stations.

I work from home in a converted garage (3m x 2.6m), so radiators off the heating system aren't an economical option. I've got a 600w IR panel on the ceiling and a 400w panel under my desk. When very cold I used both, when a bit less cold I use one or the other, depending on which part of me is cold :) I would agree that they haven't quite lived up to the expectations I got from watching the FC show about them, but as an alternative to the 1kw oil filled radiator or the 1.5kw blow heater I was previously using, they do seem a bit more cost effective on the whole, but I agree, they don't seem like they'd be good for a whole home option. I think it's a fair point that sometimes FC and EE come across more like an ad for a particular company, that a truly unbiased reviewer of technology.

Really interesting to hear the downsides of the technology as I too had only seen the positive benefits of the panels. I was considering them for the bathroom and on suite to turn on and have that instant heating whilst using the bathroom, and turning them off straight away and not having wasted heat pre-heating the bathroom or lingering there after we've left. This seems to me still to be the only sensible use of this technology. Happy to hear anyone's thoughts on this point.

Can you link the video you speak of in the description please?

They are resistive heating elements so therefore can only be 100% efficient. It's just volts x amps = watts.

What’s your view on air conditioning for heating?

I've a couple of infrared panels under my home office desks as a secondary source of heating, and they work great. However, I agree for a primary source of heating it wouldn't be an even comfortable temperature in the house, and too expensive to run.

Thanks for this video, I agree with everything you said. I am contemplating a heat pump with underfloor heating or skirting board heating. I have a large 1930's bungalow. The current gas heating works really well but I'm not sure what to go for... it won't be infra red panels!

Fully charged has some bias here & there like all but not as honest/clear as - well you - so well done & thanks for another great informative video & background work.

Were is the link to the Robert's thing then

I'd pretty much agree. I wouldn't necessarily say they're a con as much as they're not really for constant heating of a space. They're for occasional heating of a space, not steady heating day in day out. You want to heat up a room once a week, great. Every day, not so much. If electricity was 5p/kWh, great.

Thank you.

They have their uses but as you say heat pumps should be the majority solution, mainly to reduce UK energy consumption so that renewables can meet demand. What do you think of their 'church' specific product? Seems like a better market for IR?

@UpsideDownFork yes I did get into the weeds a bit there didn't I?! Thanks for the reply and I'm glad to hear that the "COP of 4 in summer only" is false, at least in the case of a well installed and handed over system. I have various health issues that make the upheaval of installation difficult for me to contemplate combined with the complexities of running the things that seem to be preferable to be understood. However since I wrote I've discovered that company that gives a whole service guarantee for fifteen years...are they called Aira...Aria, something like that, I have a note of it. I think I'd be happy to have them round to have a chat, so things are moving on at just the right pace for me as I can't afford to do anything until I reach retirement age and my mortgage is paid off around September time. Thanks for indulging me, appreciate your videos and experience.

Agree totally IR panels, or bar heaters are nothing special! At the right price they are great for intermittent heat for people in a cold space . EG 1 hour service in a church . At £50 mark useful for some applications . But at £x00 too expensive . Fully Charged needs to be more like Transport Evolved , fact based rather than enthusiasm based. PS, This vid you're parked is better video , the other driving slightly you are distracted by the driving noticable to the viewer. ( & do check the size of your camera & position in the windscreen area of your car ,may not be lawful for driving)

How do I get in touch with you, I work for a company that might be of interest to you, especially given the content of this video.

What was the size of the office and the power of the infrared panel used?

It’s like a minefield out there knowing what’s true or false, good or bad with the heat pump or heating the home with different things on the market place in today life , this government grant should be allowed by each household to spend what’s correct for them as long as they can prove they got rid of the gas boiler.

i thought the same its like a grill or an oven

Well said, i have watched the video and the manufacturers vids! Whilst electric is so much more expensive these companies are on the back foot!lobby Gov to stop pricking electric off gas and the game changes for these companies!

I have an ASHP but work from home in an upstairs office so have installed a 700W infrared panel on the wall behind my office chair. I heat the upstairs to 18/19 degrees but I find I get cold sitting at a computer so generally keep the office at 21 degrees. To me it makes a lot of sense to use an infrared heater in this situation and the heat "feels" much nicer than the 1kW oil filled radiator I used to have and it doesn't "dry out" the air either.

A lot of channels out there that hurt the industry by leaving out the obvious data needed to prove their point. That's why I like this channel even though I only care about the cheapest preferably most self reliant energy system. With Britain and the US constantly starting wars I am not concerned about the weather.

Can't wait for an infra red boiler.

Agree

I think My remote for the tv works of infra red and it works brilliant, it saves me a lot of energy by not having to change the channel manually

We converted part of our garage to a utility room and I installed an IR panel to heat it. It works very well and have it on a smart timer to take advantage of our time of use tariff. However, it is sooo expensive to run when compared to our old gas CH and our new 5kw ASHP. I agree, they should NEVER be used as a primary heat source. They should be promoted for use in specific, special cases; not as a heating system for a house. A well designed ASHP system wins HANDS-DOWN.

I think the thrust of Herschel's argument is that a well insualted house (a Passivhaus if you like) barely needs any heating, in which case all the expense and disruption of installing and running an air to water heat pump may not be financially worth it. They are basically saying spend the money on insulation and I'd agree with that but add that you must have MVHR to go with it. If the Salford Uni house has all those measures in place then a ASHP will likely cost more especially because there's no ASHP small enough for a Passivhaus. I keep banging on about mini-split a/c but in a very efficient house that is the answer and negates ALL of Herschel's "disadvantages" of a Heat Pump.

Everything electric has done several videos on infrared heating including one in a church. I was curious about the technology. I agree I think heat pumps are the way forward for Your main heating system. I like watching the Heatgeek channel. They have some great information. I think infrared heating should be used as a supplement heating and not a replacement for the main Heating system.

Lots of good points there and as you say, disappointing that the Fully Charged interview didn’t challenge the CEO more. I am wondering though if your wife sent you off to sit in the car when you wanted to rant 😂?

Your headline is misleading, where I agree infrared panels are not viable as the primary heat source in a house they are not a waste of money, I use one on the ceiling of my garage workshop and it makes my workshop comfortable to work in during the winter months and cost-effective compared to convertor or oil-filled heaters, and my feed don't get cold because I have carpet on the floor. As to heat pumps, yes I would dearly love one but in my 1983 Wimpey-built house the cost to replace my gas boiler, all the radiators and piping and the subsequent redecoration not to mention the disruption is far to expensive.

Agree with you but just to be picky, sunburn is caused by ultraviolet rather than infrared 😉

It strikes me that they are showcasing different tech on the market as even-handedly as possible. Fair dues on that. In this instance, however, and maybe all others going forward, the figures presented for transmission should have been scrutinized more closely. The results are well and truly in on heat pump efficiencies and suitability, and the only disinformation I see is from the FUD mungers and ill informed. Due diligence is called for by Fully Charged, and where figures are in doubt, they should either not have the CEOs in to make their sales pitch or add a caveat broadcast alongside the film. Well done for calling this out.

Quite agree . The only merit of inferred is that it's direct heat and not adiabatic heat which you get from a radiator.

I guess it will depend on who you are and how you live your life. If like my brother you live in a small 1 bed where you get up 15min before you go to work and are out the house for 12 hours a day then a heat pump isnt likely to work out financially. So an infrared panel could replace the fan heater he currently uses in the morning and a couple in the living area in the evening, rather than putting the gas central heating on for a few hours in the evening. I suspect in the test why the heat pump didn't do well was that it was set to heat the object vs the panel. So the heat pump was probably set to its maximum output temperature, which in the real world you would never do. The magic of heatpumps is not really the initial heating but maintaining a set temperature. So if you are in a position where you actually "live" in a house then heatpumps are amazing. If it ends up as a place to sleep and eat a quick meal the magic is somewhat lost.

I think you should get off the fence and say what you really think 🤣🤣🤣

I think they have very specific use cases… but they can’t be more than 100% efficient…

My understanding is Heating Panels (bathroom mirror etc.) cannot be taken into account when undertaking a Heat Loss Survey for a house...

I agree, disappointed by recent Everything Electric videos. A lack of scrutiny of the products they promote. I recently contacted Octopus about their Cosy heat pump. Their on line quotation system doesn’t include the Cosy, just giving you a random £7,000 installation quote. When contacted Octopus they say it’s not currently available. The channel risks turning into a bland advocate for anything that’s not directly burning fossil fuels, even if they are not available, cost effective or appropriate. Great shame. They need a bit of tough editorial guidance to provide better consumer information. 😢

I always thought that IR panels were rubbish. I'm glad that your real world data shows that.

Yes, it was a video full of pure BS. We need these things called out. To be fair to Robert it is very hard to challenge someone that is spouting rubbish to your face.

Bought my 1st panel, its only to help in the bathroom and on the ceiling. So far its rubbish, left on for a good 30mins and it radiates no more than about 350mm so top of head can just about feel the heat the rest of the body from shoulders down nothing! Still cold. As you said heats one part back or front or top. Will be selling it on.

Yep, total snake oil when it comes to heating a space long term. If you need to find an electric based solution for a small space and have access to an external wall the best place to start is an all-in-one Wall Mounted Air Conditioner/Heat Pump unit. Such devices are not as efficient as full heat pump solutions, but they are also cheaper and easier to install.

All the electric heaters work by resistance 1kw in 1 kw heat out. Heat pumps 1kw in 3 kw out.

Of course then are not better than Heat Pumps its basic physics, just like Mixergy cylinder also. I've installed many heat pumps in older buildings.

No comparison. Infra can't compete at 100% vs 400-500% after a2a or a2w never mind for those intermediate transition warm days when cop goes right up. My Tesla has heat pump heating over the earlier resistive heating ones. A big Contributor in range extension on cold days..resistive offering similar costs to infra. The science just doesn't stack up when comparing. Infra On its own as an Occasional directional heating in a small room. Maybe Yes. As a whole house method of heating. No.

Everything electric is just an advertising channel, no longer about informing the user

I have Jigsaw infrared heating panels. I love them. I live in a flat with 4 heating zones and 6 panels of various size. By precisely programming zone times to match my routine my running costs are equivalent to what gas cost me. Panels are run for less time than gas. The speed is fast taking 30-mins to 1hr to raise room temperature from 16 degrees to 21 degrees. So you’re pretty much talking crap compared to my experience as an owner.

If you need 1kw of heat, you need 1Kw of electricity simple if you are using electric heating. It's not rocket science

IR panels need to be used sparsely, exactly the same as direct electrical water heating. Only where nothing else is possible, because all other options ate still better!

Be better to have heated chairs like some cars do. Warm the human not the world. Or even heated clothing. Fortunately the UK is rarely that cold to want that much heating anyway, especially of recent years. Heat pumps sound like junk, expensive junk and based on very well insulated new houses, unrealistically for existing stock. But based on the bad recent gas created central heating bad attitude heating whole houses. These IR seem a useful option, especially from home solar and battery, 'free' power.

I wandered onto the Herschel stand at an exhibition in Glasgow last year and the salesperson started giving all the usual spiel about them only heating you and not the air, there are no convection current to cause draughts, etc, etc. Personally I don't like the feeling of radiant heat but I also I pointed out two simple facts, they're ultimately controlled by a room thermostat that measures air temperature, the installation instructions say wall mounted panels must not have the plug socket above them to avoid it overheating. They can't avoid the second law of thermodynamics, all systems want to reach equilibrium so if IR heats an object, that object will pass heat to the cool air around it. I've no doubt they have a use in situations were use of a space is sporadic and a fast response is required, but not for whole house unless it's very well insulated and you only require heat a few days per year

the trouble with everything electric show is that they are never subjective and they don't want to upset anyone so it make there reviews worthless and I have stop watching them as I feel like there just chasing money they feel like an advertising platform.