Speak it bruh! These "Pro Shops" are why I bought all the stuff needed for the "Pro Shop" I now have in my garage and now I'M THE PRO! Whats up!?

DUDE! Thank you for this! There are some great shops out there but the amount of DM's I get about tuning issues resulting from Pro Shop ignorance or laziness is incredible

Thanks Kellen for everything you put on KZfaq, this video relates to me as you know! Also huge thanks for tuning my bow so good that it allowed me to split an arrow already!

I bought a vxr last April and have taken it to three different bow techs. You would be surprised on how little these guys know. Now that I'm a bit more educated on tuning bows I have realized the importance of learning how to work on your own bow. Invest in a press and tools. Thanks for the video. Definitely learned a bit more

Thanks dude! Always love the videos, especially this one. After dealing with "lazy" bow shops for years I started doing my own bow work and your videos have truly helped. This is the first year I have ever shot a bullet hole through paper. My old shops said bullet holes were impossible until you have had years of proper form practice. Well it is completely impossible without a properly tuned bow, something a lot of shops won't spend time with you on. Thanks again.

Hey Kellen, Just getting back into bow hunting after about 25 years, so it's like starting from scratch!! Really enjoy all your videos, great info. Keep up the excellent work!! Much appreciated!!

Ok since my last question I recentered the rest and put two turns in the left yoke and took two out of the right. Pretty much dead on bullet hoke at twenty yards with both field point and broad head. Sorted. Thank you for all the info...I am only a beginner and it is a great help given the lack of pro shops here in Australia to help me.

Always enjoy the in depth video's man! Wish every town had a Bow Rack!

The first thing you said about the tophats is exactly what I went through with my triax. Literally the reason I sold it, because without a press, it can only be in tune so much and its like only putting a bandaid on the problem.

When I first started shooting bow, My "Pro Shop" set me up with at 28" DL. The kid that was supposed to be some kind of Hoyt tech. (and rather smug) insisted that was my draw length... I knew and could feel something wasn't right so I started watching videos and learning on my own. Come to find out my DL was 30.5", and my bow accommodated that just fine, but this person either didn't know, or was just unwilling to help out.. Thanks for making all these super helpful videos, it's a blessing to have some one that knows and is willing to share.

When I got my bow the tech had me shooting it then making adjustments he’d shoot it then I’d shoot again. I walked out feeling really good about the set up, it feels really solid to me

Best explanation of how to adjust cam lean & vertical nock travel I’ve ever watched. (While at the same time explaining how the adjustments change/affect the tear.) ~ Thank you!

Folks, this IS ACCURATE AND TRUTHFUL information. And in my experience of 25+ years of compound bow shooting I've honestly had very little issues getting a bow to make bullet holes in paper. I've had Mathews, Bowtech, Elite and PSE. The easiest by far to tune to me has been the PSE. I can not remember ever moving shims on any PSE. BOWS with the yoke system have been the easiest to tune. And sometimes there was a very little lean in the cams. Honestly. I don't understand why so many have trouble getting a bullet hole set up easily. Of coarse the bullet hole thing is just THE STARTING POINT only to get great arrow flight and grouping down range. Best thing I ever did was buy a Last Chance bow vice. People, do whatever you can to get a good bow vice.

Always look forward to your vids mate. About to have my first bow setup/tuned and the fellow said to allow an hour at least so I think he’ll be thorough. I got a traverse with a hamskea so hoping for the best 👍

Thanks so much for this video. Im a first time owner of a relatively cheap Kinetic Mirage compound bow. I had a cam lean for ages (bottom cam, lean right) but it shot true and I could nick tiny points on my targets no problem really. Then one day (yesterday) I decided to fix the cam lean so I watched another random video of how to fix cam leaning right. Did that succesfully, but! no other video mentioned the fact that if I only add twist to the one side to fix the cam lean, it will throw off my timing! And it did! Now my top stringstop had almost 1cm of gap (didnt touch the cable while the bottom did). So here I was again trying to watch videoes on how to fix cam timing now. Then I found your video and you explained it SO well!! Even the tiny little detail of taking out a twist in the opposite cable when adding twist in the first cable when fixing cam lean (Noone else bothers to tell this, wtf kinda important now I know that I understand what will happen lol!). So by simply retracing my steps/twists, I evened out the "twistings" by resetting the twists I put in the first cable and then do it the way you explained, add one, take out one. And now the cam is completely straight, both stringstop is touching the cable at same time, and my shots is on point again :D Im SO happy and grateful for you fixing my bow and also teaching me those basics. Thanks again for what you do man. Deeply appreciated.

Great video- Thanks for clarifying those myths. I was shocked when you pulled out the Vulcan.. I have one as well. I bought it new in 2007, it is still a great shooter. It will be going on my Az Bull elk hunt in September !

Good factual video. When I tune a bow for someone I tell them to check it to make sure it's tuned for their style of shooting. Just because it's tuned for me doesn't mean it's tuned for them.

This is the reason I stick with my preferred pro shop. I take bow in for a paper tune I shoot the bow through paper and they make adjustable until it bullet holes with me shooting

Number 2 is spot on.

Drove 4 hrs to get an alphamax way back. Shop was suppose to set the DL and time the cams before I got there. Once I got there and asked about it they said yeah it's good to go. Got home and noticed they had the bottom module set at a different DL then the top. I do all my bow work now and don't even bother wasting time at shops anymore.

Thanks for the information about cam lean. The rest of it I've figured out over the years in spite of pro shops.

It’s funny u mentioned the cam lean issue. I recently had to shim my top cam on a pse evo33. I went wayyy too far because I had a pretty bad tear. I stuck it in the drawboard(thank god) and it locked up like a virgins chastity belt. Let’s just say I won’t make that mistake again. Small adjustments make big changes on paper

My Invicta likes the top a touch fast, worked on it for a month and a fast top was the only thing that fixed it. Shoots amazing now

Another huge thing people don’t know about paper tuning. I used to compete indoor 300’s. I could paper tune with one release, grab another back tension of a different brand, but same design, and it would tear. I go back to the original release and bullet hole again. So every time you change release brands, you need to paper tune again. They do not all release that string the same.

Inside Out - that is Downtown info to share. Your the Man! Keep'em flying.

Your vids are money bro! I love my bow shop but I was shooting after a “tune” and this video is giving me dejavu. Expensive tune for zero change in results. I’m working on learning how to do it myself but for now I like to let the pros do it so I don’t Jack it up. But I always appreciate your insight.

I shot bowtech , and bow tuning is really easy for me any time !

Happen to me , that's why I bought my own bow press easy green

Team Hoyt @vintage!! My backup is a turbohawk and it still shoots very well.

I agree with everything except the cam timing on Hoyt bows. It isn’t generally done for tears but for forgiveness esp when shooting a hinge to tighten the grouping with varying pressure. You actually want the top cam hitting slightly early and by slightly I mean just enough to see light through the bottom cam. Also sometimes a half twist will only get you close to perfect, in that case gap the bottom stop. The other issue is that tiller tuning or limb bolt tuning on a past parallel bow does little to nothing, timing is the better option. The main effect it will have on paper will be that it will tear cleaner/ more consistent at different back pressure. Similar to torque tuning a rest for left rights for forgiveness. I saw these results not only on the line but also through my hooter shooter inducing different levels of back pressure.

Like any retailer, there are some archery shops and bow techs who are either too busy or don’t care about solving a customer’s unique bow problem(s). As a consumer, you have to take responsibility to know enough about your equipment to operate it effectively.

Elite has built their brand on cam lean and they're one of the best bow manufacturers in the world. So yeah I'd say you're right on about cam lean

Thank you.

During quarantine mode. Would be be willing to do a detailed video on how to tune a bow, time your cams, etc. I just bought three bows from a local shop. Three Mathew’s, two of them for kids and one for myself and everything you just described happed to me. I am one that really likes to do my pens stuff because I like to learn and understand it all. There are a lot of videos already on it, but you come off as being very knowledgeable and would love to see how you tune a bow.

Great Job...good stuff

When I bought a vertix last year i asked the shop about top hat tuning and they had no idea what I was talking about. Not like it was new halon series had that tech. Biggest shop in my area. That was the exact reason i bought a press and learned how to tune a year after getting into archery.

Great insight! Man, I have recently been working on my old Z7 and followed the yoke tuning method where they say your string should be perfectly aligned with your idler wheel at full draw. I found that after doing this and set my center shot I was getting a 1" left tear through paper. I put a turn in the right and took at turn out of the right and got a perfect bullet hole without touching my rest! You the man! Have you ever done any single cam tuning videos? There isn't much out there for solid info on this. P.S. I'm having fun at home!!

Love the videos man. Just getting into archery hunting and its videos like this that make it so easy.

Most, shops, just call themselves a pro shop.. Back in the day, we had to go to the company, to get training, before we could sale their bows..

Man you’re a GOD sent 👍🏽!!!! Thank You 🙏 for the valuable information

Dude, love the videos.... Making corona lock down bearable.

Dude, I am so grateful for this video.

I needed this video big time right now

As usual, very informative.Passing on tips like these is super helpful. Thanks

There's few things worse than a lazy archery shop! They really hurt new shooters that are trusting them to steer them in the right direction.

One of your best videos dude. Completely solid 👌

Thanks for the honesty!

Hoyt bows are notorious for low tears, and the only way to fix this is to put the bottom drawstop 1/8" away from the cable when the top is touching, and then pull until the bottom touches the cable. There is no difference between tiller tuning and just moving the nock point up with the drawstops touching at the same time - you're still gonna get a nock high setup. This low tear that Hoyt is notorious for is the reason QAD made the TL1 launcher, so that the vanes aren't hitting the launcher at the shot with both cams timed. This tuning issue with Hoyt occurs in all grades of their bow line, from the least expensive right up to their flagship.

Right, I've heard people say the same thing!

Ran across your vid. Like the things you said. Thats why i dont let no one work on my cars or bow. Its like tou say dont know what they did to it and say its all fix and when you get home and find other issues that they screw up They have the cash in there hand and you cant get it back

Shop I bought my Reign 7 from here in Oklahoma pulled the same crap a few years ago. He through everything on it and was done in his mind. I asked if I could shoot it through paper and he said it wasnt needed. He even started to throw a fit about needing to change the draw length from 29 to 30. This shop was over an hour drive for me too. Being a lefty leaves me limited on options so i made the drive. They have the biggest selection of bows of all brands that Ive ever seen anywhere, by far. But I will never go back there. I will settle and shoot a brand Im not real crazy about thats closer to home before i ever go back there.

Great vid . I like the NO BS !

I just had the issue debating whether or not to allow cam lean to keep the bullet hole. Thanks for the info

As always.....ON POINT!

I used to think cam lean was the issue with all my shooting and tuning woes. Then I learned how to properly shoot a bow. Cam lean isn't the big deal that I thought it was. How about a video on creep tuning

thanks bro

Lord of the Toads appreciates your Explanation, my dear minion

Like your video's because of your video's i just ordered me a Prime Black 5 Today. Sorry I couldn't buy it from the Bow Rack but I live 6 hrs away.

Yeah I got rid of a bow because of my pro shop would say “that’s the way it is for tuning issues “. It leaned over a half inch. I have 8 bows and no problems with them. They would not touch the bear bow. I felt they were to good to deal with a cheaper bow or lazy. I spend a lot of money there too. I need to get a new string for my hoyt trkon and second guessing wether to go with them or find a new shop. Maybe even ship it out. What do you think 🤔?

Nice Video! Would love to see the perfect set up on a Mathews. Center shot, nick heights, etc.

Shops are going to be a thing of the past at some point and it’s being driven by bad shops. If you have a good shop in your area you are very very very lucky.

Thank you. Good video as always.

My bow shoots bullet holes bare shafts straight from factory and the rest put on and lined up with the laser thing that mounts to the string.

Thanks ,stay safe

Thanks for more good information!

I wish I lived close to your shop I always am tuning my shooting but don’t have a bow press to try things out ,I don’t have a good shop within a hour drive

Another thing stay FAR away from Archerytalk if u want to learn how to set up your bow

great advice - thanks

Thank you

Where is your shop located? Might be worth a trek when upgrading (once we are good to travel again) to a shop that sounds as professional as yours. Nothing but big box stores anywhere close to me that staff far too many uneducated and unmotivated individuals for me to have any faith (based on consistent experiance) in any purchase or setup help. And thanks so much for your videos with absolute top notch tips and pitfall warnings for us early to intermediate archers.

I have an opinion of 2 local bow shops. #1 says "its tuned from the factory" and only tunes by center shot. #2 is an excellent Bowsmith, but seems to want to select who gets to buy the brand that he sells. Rock vs. Hard place.

Awesome info! thanks man.

Solid. Thank you! 👌

Great video mate thanks for the info great to know 👍🏹🏹

Sounds alot like my bow shop, they always want to tune your bow themselves and then hand you a small paper with the supposed bullet hole. They get all weird about it when you tell them I'd like to shoot it. Problem is there ain't never anyone there that can work on bows except for a couple hours a few days a week. Can't stand that we don't have a decent bow shop close unless I want to travel.

It seems like the shop I go to is always cutting corners when they can. I wonder sometimes if there is a certain type of customer they like and other types they don’t want to help. For example, if a target guy capable of shooting 300’s walks in they’ll get preferential treatment over a guy who is asking about his “starter” bow.

Most of this sounds pretty familiar. We have a shop near us that does everything that you just stated.

My shop takes in back tunes then has me shoot they adjusts and my bow is spot on I never understood this tuning a bow for a shooter thats shooting wrong isn't good a perfectly tuned bow shot right will be good 👍

I think the reason why most shops just take the bow into the back, "tune" it and give it back is that they know that the shooter is a novice and he will get tears with any setup because his grip and form are inconsistent, but they dont want to tell it straight to the person to not sound mean and offensive.

I'm in Aus, there is stuff all "pro" shops, the place I just got my dragon X8 from set the arrow rest up upside down..... Enough said

This is what I am scared of I am a new archer and I feel like my pro shop just takes advantage since I am new but sadly where I live it’s the only shop others are like an hour away

Very useful thanks

Ok good video, I've heard some of the same things and your right, not true. I'm wondering about a different cam system, it's the Evolve cam by PSE, I have a 2019 PSE Stealth Carbon Air. On a system like this is some cam lean acceptable? It doesn't look that bad but I just got it and I am still waiting to set it up. Hopefully I won't have to wait that long until my pro shop opens back up. Thanks, Danny

Dude, your the Sh#t, thank you for Expert knowledge. Be safe, an stay diligent during these times of population control.😵

Great discussion....but could you clarify something?....Tiller Tuning effect on cams.......if you put a hoyt's cams both "in time", such that both draw stops hit cables at the same time....If you "tiller tune" after that (let's say there is a nock high/low condition and you don't want to/can't adjust nock pt or rest anymore due to clearance issues), and with slight tiller tune (adjusting limb bolts) you correct the nock travel condition....if you then place the perfectly tuned bow back on draw board, won't the cams be hitting the stops at a different time now? Thanks!

Can you do more reviews soon... releases, sights, rests, stabilizers... etc Thank you

Great video --- tune the bow to the shooter!

Great video thank you !

Thanks for the details, solid information, now where can I get one of those Tee shirts?

Great video

nice T shirt! :)

Hello from Australia! I hope you can help me. I am shooting a Bear divergent at 60 pounds. I have a hamskea trinity hunter pro rest. I shoot Easton axis 5mm 300 spine arrows at 30 inches with 100 grain field tips. At centre shot the bow has a whooping tail left tear. To correct I have to move my rest so far right I cannot get the sight on target at twenty yards and still see the sight housing and ai must be close to touching the cables with the fletches. Where do I start with this problem? The yoke? Any advice greatly appreciated. Kind regards, Craig

thanks for the video, incredibly well explained. But is a 1 cam better than 2 cams, and to adjust? I live in Belgium and we do not have the option to shoot anywhere in a field or meadow. Also that ATA in the States, that is something that we do not know or have. We go to a store and buy a bow. Everything else is up to us., Adjustment, pounds, draw length. So everything. A pro shop is not here either. So we have to buy everything and hope that we can shoot well with it. We have to order a bowpress like that of last chance archery in America. And that is expensive, very expensive with the transport to Belgium.

This may be more of a question than it is a statement. Arrow spine and varied point weight can cause good or bad paper tuning just as much as a badly tuned bow. Would it be just as appropriate to have an arrow tuned to a perfectly squared, in time, properly set bow and arrow rest? Basically set the bow to the desired draw weight and length, set it up "in spec" with the arrow rest in center shot with the nock point and then find the arrow spine, arrow length, and corresponding point weight to match the bow's settings? Again, just throwing this out there as a question/ possible solution to the same tuning and setup issues. Thanks for the video. Great info. 👍

Awesome t shirt, what brand is it? I ‘m from Montreal Canada and can’t find a shop to tune my bow. Getting my self set up to do it myself. Thanks for the great tips and info. You would not believe the struggles I’ve gone threw. We are talking about some pretty big mistakes. Bolts combing loose after 1hr of shooting.

Great video good info

Im on my 3rd bow now and my proshop owner said that he only paper tunes as a last resort. He said that if everything is square and in time , shouldnt need to put through paper. My Elite Kure should arrive any day now ( depending on this virus ), should i insist on paper tune? My bud just ordered a new VXR and it came in last week. Proshop owner told him the same thing when they got it geared up on the weekend. In ideal conditions ( 20 yards in doors ) he has broke 3 arrows in 50 or less shots. 2 broken in half and a robin hood that you would have to see to believe haha. Its shooting very well.

Man I wish you were my local archery shop!

Decent video but I don't agree with the cam timing. Hybrid bows can benefit from having the top draw stop hit first. This preloads the control cable before the bottom stop hits the much firmer buss cable and the back wall will feel firmer. It also helps alleviate some vertical nock travel and helps the bow hold up on target better because the top cam does not have the "slop". If you creep tune many hybrid bows, you'll find the best creep tune with the top cam hitting first too. Also, making the stops hit at the same time is not the cam timing, that's cam sync. Timing is the starting rotational position. Timing is at brace, sync is how they rotate in relation to one another.

Pro hoyt shooters would disagree with you on the svx top cam not being ahead. Go creep tune and you'll pretty much always find on hybrid cams the top will be slightly ahead. People wear gonna say oh you don't need to creep tune but forgiveness in backwall pressure that may vary when shooting uphill downhill fresh or fatigued it makes a difference