Interview with inventor of the first self-contained ion-propelled aircraft

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Interview with inventor of the first self-contained ion-propelled aircraft

Рет қаралды 12,026

Күн бұрын

Episode 1 of KSP Engineering Connections
Guest: Ethan Krauss, electrical engineer and inventor of the world first self contained ion propelled aircraft
Ethan Krauss's KZfaq Channel:
/ kraussemus1
Patent for Self-contained Ion Powered Airplane:
patents.google...
Electron Air Website:
electronairllc...
News Articles about Ethan's Invention:
www.wksu.org/p...
Alexander Seversky Ionocraft Demonstration:
• 'ionocraft' Model Demo...
Meisei University Ionocraft:
lifterproject.o...
MIT Fixed Wing Ion Aircraft:
electricaircra...

Пікірлер: 117

@tachyonicnewt2473 4 жыл бұрын

This was a great video. Please do more videos like this when the opportunities present themselves.

@GaryMcKinnonUFO 4 жыл бұрын

Anyone who wants to see more of this craft visit Ethan's channel : kzfaq.infovideos

@KraussEMUS1 2 жыл бұрын

@@GaryMcKinnonUFO Thank you, Gary!

@GaryMcKinnonUFO 2 жыл бұрын

@@KraussEMUS1 My pleasure! :)

@ray_rg23499 4 жыл бұрын

Ooh this is different!

@brianwaltman6077 4 жыл бұрын

Ethan Krauss- I appreciate all your work on ion craft, I too have been tinkering on small ion craft since 2006. Have you ever tried using an air foil shape for your collector plate? I have seen some improvement in lift to structure size depending on angle of attack. I havnt managed to do onboard power supply yet but hope to soon, keep up the great work! And thanks Bradley Whistance for the informative interview on near future propulsion tech!

@KraussEMUS1 4 жыл бұрын

Hi Brian, I settled on a teardrop wing cross section for the collector surfaces long ago. I measured the thrust to weight ratio, and tests indicated that a 4mm wide, by 12 mm tall wing/collector, seemed to give the most lift. Thanks for asking!

@GaryMcKinnonUFO 4 жыл бұрын

I've collected a lot of data on so-called ion-wind propulsion and i'm convinced there is something else at work here, not just ions bumping into air. In some of the data i've seen that a large collector area improves the effect, but in others it doesn't. I'm making a test-bed to test DC power and AC power at different frequencies since it's likely the frequency or power difference that enables the larger collector to improve efficiency. An Israeli group said they had anomalous efficiency increases using AC power at certain frequencies or their multiples but they stopped reporting after that and now i can't find the original video.

@KraussEMUS1 4 жыл бұрын

@@GaryMcKinnonUFO Hi Gary, As I've mentioned before, I think some important points are, O2 electron affinity, electrons, and mostly static pull at very low currents. I realize some people might strongly disagree though. I just go with what appears to work best in tests. Thanks!

@KraussEMUS1 3 жыл бұрын

@War Dog Hi War Dog, Your comment is much appreciated! I've heard good things about Mister Dollard, I think I saw a video of his once. I have heard of these other concepts. Before I was an EE, I was a musician, so I always think about the possible effects of harmonics in a system. Thanks a lot for the ideas!

@speaklifegardenhomesteadpe8783 2 жыл бұрын

@@KraussEMUS1 it seems the quiet is a wonderful quality of the design, but have you tried implementing a buzzing equivalent to the size in proportion using say a bumble bee as the standard? There may be something more to the buzzing which also might give lift etc. I always keep pondering the Egyptian beetle, leedskin's sp? coal castle, and the other very old beetle wings lifting box thing that allegedly had handlebars and could travel that guy around but I forget his name.. He claimed the wings could lift the device.. I need to go look all this stuff back up again. And.... O-H....!!!😉 😎👍

@notfeedynotlazy 4 жыл бұрын

I'll have you know, this video had a 10-old girl, with ADHD, and for whom English is not her first language, sitting with great interest through ALL of it .

@BradleyWhistance 4 жыл бұрын

Thats one savvy 10 year old! I can't wait to see what she is inventing.

@emm1757 3 жыл бұрын

what................................................................................................ imPOSSIBLE

@Bretaxy 3 жыл бұрын

@@emm1757 BOOM

@byaafacehead 4 жыл бұрын

Wow honestly clicked before realizing it was this channel, but as soon as I realized I was stoked. Cool topic, that's awesome work by Ethan!

@Dingobigboy357 4 жыл бұрын

Watched the vid and went back, and liked every video on his channel. Suffered through every ad I could. Every one else do this and we will get more superb ksp content!

@lyncistso1111 4 жыл бұрын

Really interresting video !

@scottwippel5007 Жыл бұрын

Thank you so much for the advice and the shortcut to getting here to watch and learn more about this!!!

@RpattoYT 4 жыл бұрын

You should have this guy on your channel for a regular series, I originally encountered this (at the time) seemingly unknown mysterious phenomenon, back when KZfaq first launched and people like Ethan started uploading other-worldly demonstrations. Anyhow, I think you could weaponize the KPS communities applied autism, if you made this a regular think. By which I mean, thinking of ways to improve upon existing ideas and use for this emerging technology. Way back when these were called "lifters" and they could only be found on the dark side of KZfaq, alongside alien conspiracy channels.

@RpattoYT 4 жыл бұрын

On which note, I'd like you to ask Ethan... has he considered drastically increasing the potential surface area with the use of PCB's or modern flexible light-weight PCB's? With the extreme precision you can achieve with CAD and printed circuits, it would be possible to maximize surface area to the extreme, presumably significantly increasing thrust and push this technology to it's absolute fundamental limits, all the way down to the nano-scale.

@KraussEMUS1 4 жыл бұрын

@@RpattoYT Hi rpatto92, Fascinating food for thought! Flexible PCB's can help, although I did use them in the past for some system parts. This craft started before the name lifter was coined, so I am used to calling it something other than a "lifter." Avoiding needing a large heavy external power supply is one difference, as well the geometry and other details that are different. I certainly agree that flexible circuit boards are the best for lightweight applications. Thanks!

@Jonathan-ol9si 2 жыл бұрын

PLEASE make more of these love you brad

@britishthought4018 4 жыл бұрын

Your really going up in the world. Well done.

@ebrahimchalhoub9313 4 жыл бұрын

Amazing concept for a video. Good stuff.

@woodywiest 4 жыл бұрын

Wow, the patience between the two of you is immense! Thanks for doing this interview! Definitely fascinating!

@SliptOnAChip 4 жыл бұрын

Would love to see more interviews of this length and depth

@volbla 4 жыл бұрын

This is very inspiring! Having a neat idea and making experiments to find out how well you can make the idea work, that's like the perfect hobby right there.

@pooounderscoreman 4 жыл бұрын

Very cool! I'd love to see what extra fancy metamaterials could add.

@HebaruSan 4 жыл бұрын

I wonder if something like this could use solar wind particles as propellant out in the solar system. Catch the ionized ones with a strong EM field, divert them in the right direction, that'd have to give some thrust, right?

@KraussEMUS1 4 жыл бұрын

Cool Idea!

@complimentaryrandomnessinc3137 4 жыл бұрын

Read the history section: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_sail

@achimhanischdorfer3403 4 жыл бұрын

That thing is AWESOME.

@KraussEMUS1 4 жыл бұрын

Thank you!!

@nerdycus6935 4 жыл бұрын

I loved seeing this video, I found it incredibly interesting!

@snigwithasword1284 3 жыл бұрын

Great interview! Can't wait to see what you'll showcase next!

@scottwippel5007 Жыл бұрын

I’m in northern Indiana and would still love to meet up with you and see your project!!!

@emptyshirt 3 жыл бұрын

I know the youtube algorithm doesn't like to let people switch their content style so I'm giving this a thumbs up and this comment for maximum promotion. My contribution to the world these days is cleaning up after my GF, curating youtube, and working up the motivation to apply for jobs.

@Aengus42 4 жыл бұрын

Fascinating! Could you pass on my thanks to Ethan. And keep us posted!

@speaklifegardenhomesteadpe8783 2 жыл бұрын

Awesome!!!

@slow_bike_show 4 жыл бұрын

I'm really into this- keep the science vids coming!

@jcataclisma 4 жыл бұрын

Man, that was a cool surprise to find here! \o/ !

@psun256 4 жыл бұрын

Very cool!

@nathanboody1148 4 жыл бұрын

Very interesting!

@ystem6836 4 жыл бұрын

Energy consumption per unit of thrust increases with specific impulse. In atmosphere, moving more air less quickly results in better efficiency. Unless there is another source of energy, in order to generate 14g/watt of thrust, an engine needs to have a specific impulse less than about 1.5s, or 1/2000th of what the dawn spacecraft generates. If half the power is lost in the transformer, then this number is even smaller. Put another way, the Dawn spacecraft needed at minimum 150 watts to generate a gram of thrust.

@ystem6836 4 жыл бұрын

I should note that sometimes Isp for air breathing engines means thrust/fuel consumption, instead of thrust/exhaust rate as I have been using. As this craft doesn't use fuel, it has infinite Isp if measured this way. If you powered it with a hydrocarbon based generated, then this Isp could easily be hundreds of thousands of seconds, however, since the question is how well it would do in space, this number is irrelevant.

@laszlosauve1877 4 жыл бұрын

Idea of mission: Fly-by all the bodies of the Kerbol system with 1000 m/s of delta-V from LKO.

@1224chrisng 4 жыл бұрын

when will you do Advanced Orbital Mechanics 2?

@microsoftword213 4 жыл бұрын

thats amazing

@lolerthegoat8603 4 жыл бұрын

What If the alien “levitation” technology is just the ion thrusters technology but they are a lot stronger... interesting.

@rradical4714 4 жыл бұрын

my first tought to!!

@MadScientist750 3 жыл бұрын

that's what it was. Did you read "Secrets of antigravity propulsion" by Paul La Violette?

@lolerthegoat8603 3 жыл бұрын

@@MadScientist750 No, I just had this Idea and wrote in down here

@MadScientist750 3 жыл бұрын

@@lolerthegoat8603 It's because there's nothing alien about it, this physical principle has just been kept out of the eye at school and university.

@lolerthegoat8603 3 жыл бұрын

@@MadScientist750 this is bad cause if every student would know this thing and so many others like this, I think more people will start to study with more interest.

@petersmythe6462 4 жыл бұрын

Atmospheric fuel efficiency is mostly based on how little power it takes to move the vehicle. As most of the air is not consumed as oxidizer but used as free propellant. With vacuum/rocket ISP it is the exact opposite. Propellant is the thing that is scarce in a vacuum, not necessarily energy. As such, with constant energy efficiency, the best ISP is achieved by having the HIGHEST energy devoted to each particle.

@KraussEMUS1 4 жыл бұрын

It is possible to use the energy more efficiently though. O2 molecules naturally absorb electrons, creating negative ions. The process requires an electron source but no further added energy for ionization, it also produces far less corona and byproducts. It is much more more efficient process. Isp is also dependent on voltage and geometry, and both have been improved upon over previous systems. If the craft has significantly lower mass, and accelerates smaller numbers of particles at much higher speeds, and when less heat is consequently added to the exhaust, it will have a higher ISP per watt in space. It is also possible, at least mathematically, to use relativistic electrons. Thanks!

@ikemanreed 2 жыл бұрын

Epic!

@ladroghinadistruttrice9995 4 жыл бұрын

Commenting to boost engagement

@MegaFederation 4 жыл бұрын

The one time where reversing the polarity is legitimate and not technobabble.

@traegoins6903 4 жыл бұрын

I just completed my first apollo style mun mission. The docking was the hardest part, but it was awesome!

@greenbanana311 3 жыл бұрын

They sure are.

@whoshotdk 4 жыл бұрын

Thats it. I've had enough. I'm really gonna have to change my email notification sound from the default. You got me twice in this video lol

@chickennugget5557 4 жыл бұрын

Just asking, why don’t you use AC current that can move through the air? Or maybe a simple testla coil to move the energy to a collector that can use the energy for the craft?

@KraussEMUS1 4 жыл бұрын

If electrons are just added to the O2 molecules in the air, they will jump down to a positive collector, Like oposite poles on magnets, except its electrostatic rather than magnetic. If the polarity was alternating 50/50, there would be no lift. To answer your other question, Tesla coils are much larger and heavier than small ferrite transformers.

@SuperRama666 2 жыл бұрын

How much power is needed for your self contained powered ion craft would a scaled down ion craft on its side push the craft forward? Also how much weight could this ion craft lift? I wish you all the success on your future designs loads of love from the UK xxxx

@KraussEMUS1 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the kind comment, same to you:)!! It only requires roughly 7 or 8 watts to fly. Much of the energy is lost in the transformer though. On about half throttle it is much more efficient. It takes a fairly large surface area to produce an acceptable thrust per watt. It has flown on one side before in the past. It takes much less power to fly sideways. It weighs about 25 to 30 grams maximum.

@piotrfila3684 4 жыл бұрын

I feel like this (really impressive) craft is not really suitable for spacefilight like you speculated. Its engine needs to be optimized for a high thrust to power ratio, so it moves a lot of air rather slowly, like a helicopter blade. Consequently, the "specific impulse" is orders of magnitude lower than that of the dawn spacecraft (I'm using specific impulse loosely here as no propellant is actually used). We can compare the two more adequately by using exhaust velocity for comparison (it directly corresponds to specific impulse if all your propellant is stored onboard). So, the dawn spacecraft engine with its 3100s of si has an exhaust velocity of 30.4 km/s, the SSME has 452.3s(vac.) sp. imp. and 4.4 km/s ex. vel. and, judging by the smoke in Ethan's videos, his craft's ex. vel. can't really be higher than 10m/s which (given that all the propellant is stored onboard) gives a specific impulse of under 1s. This comparison doesn't really take into account the power consuption, and if thrust/watt is what we want Ethan's engine would be the clear winner (I don't have the data needed to calculate how good it is exactly but if it had the same N/W ratio as the dawn spacecraft - 0.000006 N/W - it would need over 1.5kW of power for each gram it weighed)

@KraussEMUS1 4 жыл бұрын

The Dawn Spacecraft uses 3.25mg of propellant per second. It operates at about 3kV. It needs 2.6kW to produce about 9 grams of thrust (289 watts/gram of thrust,) weight: 1,647.1 pounds (747.1 kilograms,) at 0.00014g of acceleration. This craft can produce ideally about 14 grams of lift per watt, at almost 1.4G of acceleration (all VTOL crafts can produce over 1G of acceleration to overcome earth's gravity.) The speed that the electrons leave the emitters is proportional to the voltage, apparently it is the same for ions, it depends on the propellant and geometry and is much higher in a vacuum. At 40-50kV, these voltages should produce a much higher exhaust velocity in space. Isp is proportional to exhaust velocity, but its more accurate if propellant type is taken into account. While the propellant goes exponentially faster when it gets near the collector, it is still slow overall when in the air. To reiterate, it was demonstrated experimentally that the propellant exhaust will move much faster in space. There are plans to increase the voltage by many times, so its promising. As Bradley mentioned though, some tests really need to be done to find out. Thanks!

@BradleyWhistance 4 жыл бұрын

Ethan's pool ball analogy in the video is key here. An ion engine is ionizing a very small mass of gas, and generating impulse by accelerating it to a very high speed. In an atmosphere, these ions quickly interact with a lot of other atmospheric gas, inducing the ionic wind. The momentum from the ions is being distributed to a mass much greater than that of the gas that is ionized. To find the actual specific impulse, we would need to determine how much gas we actually need to be ionized, and how fast that is moved in a vacuum. There are a lot of factors here, and I don't know the answer as to what the specific impulse would be of a similar engine in a vacuum. What I do know is: The exhaust velocity in a vacuum will be much higher than 1s.

@piotrfila3684 4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for both of your replies! While the engine will achieve a (possibly much) higher specific impulse in space, it will inevitably do so at the cost of reduced thrust (assuming energy consumtion doesn't change) "The momentum from the ions is being distributed to a mass much greater than that of the gas that is ionized." This is exactly why. Taking this engine into space would be like removing the fan from a turbofan. You could use just enough propellant so it all ionizes, but then a different design would probably be better. It's like saying a helicopter could be possibly used on the moon becouse it is so much more efficient than a rocket engine. I feel like this engine shoudn't be judged by what it can or can not do in space, it was designed for a high thrust to weight ratio and low power consumtion and those two things somewhat contradict a high specific impulse.

@KraussEMUS1 4 жыл бұрын

@@piotrfila3684 Hi Piotr, It is fun talking with you, but if your saying "it will never work," you know I've heard that one before:). This ion propelled craft was honestly pretty obsessively designed, to take as much into account as possible, for over 20 years. It was indeed designed in part, to move air slowly and efficiently. It is not a helicopter though, it is an ion thruster. It would operate very differently in a vacuum, in terms of how fast the onboard propellant O2/electrons will exit the craft. The speed of the propellant for future space designs of this has been absolutely maximized, and the wattage and propellant use minimized. Since this has only been shown mathematically and I can't really prove any of this yet, I'm going to keep working on more immediately practical matters. Who knows what is possible in the future! Thanks for commenting!

@piotrfila3684 4 жыл бұрын

@@KraussEMUS1 Haha 640 kbytes of ram come to mind :) I just found it weird to compare this with a spacecraft, the design requirements are so different.

@jackingjacker9389 3 жыл бұрын

I wonder if you could throttle power of certain sections of this ion device to make it like a drone.

@KraussEMUS1 3 жыл бұрын

Here it is with digital steering. Still needs some work though: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/msx5ebl4mJjWZIE.html&t

@HandFromCoffin 4 жыл бұрын

20 min in and for the love of god what's the battery and how does he work with that thin wire?

@KraussEMUS1 4 жыл бұрын

Hi Bart, Sorry about that, It uses 2 very small high discharge rate lithium polymer batteries. Depending on the model, from 20 to 120mAh each. (update, up to 180.) It is very challenging to work with such thin wire, it takes very good lighting, magnification, and care. I hope that answers your questions! Bradley did put links with further information. Best regards, Ethan

@DogsaladSalad 4 жыл бұрын

cool

@lucywucyyy 3 жыл бұрын

i bumped into this guy in the comments of another video (dont remember what vid sadly) talking about how he made ion powered aircraft and i thought either he was part of the mit team or bullshitting, i was pretty amazed when i saw his videos tho

@KraussEMUS1 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for commenting! Please see my channel with 36 flight footage videos of the craft.

@johnk190 4 жыл бұрын

Great video and super interesting to hear it from the horse's mouth so to speak, more please. I know aircraft engines aren't exactly safe if you get too close but would this thing basically be a flying electric fence in terms of safety?

@KraussEMUS1 4 жыл бұрын

Although the voltage is high, the current is so low, that it's pretty safe.

@johnk190 4 жыл бұрын

@@KraussEMUS1 Ah ok, i was wondering whether your test flights were dangerous affairs. "Its the amps that kill you, not the voltage". Thanks for the reply man, keep up the good work!

@johnk190 4 жыл бұрын

@@KraussEMUS1 Also would larger components that are able to take more power create enough thrust to overcome the extra mass? And are there any thermal benefits with larger components?

@KraussEMUS1 4 жыл бұрын

@@johnk190 The answer is complex. A slightly larger diameter transformer is better, if the profile remains very low, it dissipates heat a little better. Higher voltages tend to be more efficient . Higher currents tend to be less efficient. It is a bit like a link in a chain though, it may not help to have just one large link:). Thanks for the question!

@skyr8449 4 жыл бұрын

How much cost and knowledge does this take to do? I want to see if I can put a very small camera on it or something

@KraussEMUS1 4 жыл бұрын

I have flown a small onboard camera before, on the craft. Anyone can build an externally powered device. To build a device with onboard power, isn't too easy though. It takes a more serious approach with time and investment. It is not impossible if you have the time to read up on it. My website, patent, and KZfaq channel are like having directions. I put quite a bit of money into it, but that's mostly because I've been paying a "little" every month for 20 years, mostly just to figure out how to improve it:). Good luck with your project!

@daxturus4275 4 жыл бұрын

Coooooooooool.

@daxturus4275 4 жыл бұрын

Perhaps, in a laboratory setting with the correct safety measures in place (Good ventilation), you can use the radiation emitted from thorium (or another actinide) alloy wire to generate ions.

@EgnachHelton 4 жыл бұрын

There is a recent NASA solar probe that planned to observe the poles of the sun in high orbit angles (30 degrees). This makes me wonder if you can have a satellite in solar polar orbit in ksp.

@wildspycrab7255 4 жыл бұрын

Not in stock, but with principa I believe

@petersmythe6462 4 жыл бұрын

Would it ever be possible to somehow multiply the existing~100 V/m potential differences in the atmosphere and get useful thrust from one of these on only atmospheric potential differences?

@KraussEMUS1 4 жыл бұрын

Very interesting idea. The only challenge though is that the current is relatively very low per area. One could theoretically store it up though continually and just fly for short periods of time.

@michaelnewman6692 4 жыл бұрын

Is this anti-gravity, or something else? Does the device produce some kind of thrust by moving air? Is it shielded from gravity? Is it reversing the direction of gravity? Would this device levitate in a NASA vacuum chamber?

@KraussEMUS1 4 жыл бұрын

Hi Michael, It is not antigravity, it's an ion thruster that has increased efficiency in order to lift its own power supply. It adds electrons to ambient oxygen molecules using low wattage. Then, the charged particles are pulled downwards electrostatically toward the collector surfaces. There are also some uncharged molecules that continue below the craft along with negative oxygen ions. Since the device can also carry very small additional propellant tanks containing O2 or SF6, it will work in a vacuum in theory. Since it operates with very high voltages the particles would be moving relatively much faster in a vacuum. Thanks for asking!

@CSX-fp9xk 4 жыл бұрын

Nice and very interesting interview! Makes me want to attempt it as well but I likely just electrocute myself ...

@unbelievablecontentforall64 4 жыл бұрын

make a 1 burn ion rocket not a ssto to tylo and back and it has to be called the iyon 12

@jeffvader811 4 жыл бұрын

You made it to orbit, clearly the greater achievement.

@greenbanana311 3 жыл бұрын

Huh?

@jeffvader811 3 жыл бұрын

Green Rabbid Rabbit Bradley made a video where he got to orbit with ion engines in KSP.

@AshCompton 4 жыл бұрын

When you can make things float with a bunch of concentric circles Edit: sorry, hexagons

@PastaTurtle 4 жыл бұрын

@AshCompton 4 жыл бұрын

OH MY GOD ITS REAL LIFE SPACE PROGRAM!!!

@Bleeto 4 жыл бұрын

what do you mean? ksp is based on real space programs that have existed decades before ksp was made

@greenbanana311 3 жыл бұрын

@@Bleeto Exactly, I was confused about their comment as well.

@cmelton6796 4 жыл бұрын

8th? I think?

@johngobble 4 жыл бұрын

Ion more like Iyawn am I right?......please don’t crucify me

@greenbanana311 3 жыл бұрын

Don't worry, you're doing a good job of it to yourself already.

@thesiber.stanmapper852 4 жыл бұрын

Firstn't ((first not))

@KraussEMUS1 4 жыл бұрын

It is the first heavier than air ion propelled aircraft with onboard power. It is independently verified and patented. It takes quite a bit of thrust to take off vertically with the power supply.