I am from a working class family. I went to university, worked my a** off, and achieved a first class law degree. I am now working as a fully qualified lawyer. I did everything that I was advised to do. Yet, here I am. 30 years old and staring down the barrel of NEVER being able to afford my own home. The truth is, I would have been happy never owning a property - as I only need it when I am alive. But, in order to have some modicum of stability to raise a family, having a place to call 'home' is all but essential. Living in rented accommodation, at whim of the landlord, unable to so much as put up a shelf, and being charged more per month than it would be to buy the f*kin place does not lend itself to feeling stable. Our enemies are not abroad, they are right here. In Westminster, London. They have caused more damage to this country than any foreign nation could ever dream of.

Take a trip around the Northern towns of Britain. Dirty, disrepair, underprivileged, decay, broken. Boarded up houses and shops. Crime ridden. Youths openly wandering around in balaclavas. Homelessness. A total lack of industry. There is a sad hope-lessness in the eyes of the people. The countryside is beautiful but the towns and inner cities are extremely ugly. 💛💜💛

The moment that the UK ‘government’ finally wakes up to the fact that we ceased to be a world power 30 years ago, and start looking after the UK’s population for a change is the day where I will re-engage with politics. For now, I am so ashamed of what my country has become that it has made me very depressed. It’s not worth it. We can’t keep living on the legacies of 1966, VE Day and the stiff upper lip. We’re too far gone.

I was born in the early 50’s. Looking back now it seems unbelievable the things we took for granted up until the late 70’s. One example, an unskilled factory worker could support a wife and a couple of kids one his wage alone, not rely on any benefit, go on holiday once a year put good healthy food on the table and treat the kids to a good Christmas. Sadly these days have gone for good.

Labour and Tories have one mission : to make the establishment richer.

I have observed the decline in British standards of living over the past four decades. Young people are leaving Britain for a better life abroad.

When I travel around Europe. France, Holland, Spain, Germany and yes Italy, I see far more prosperity, beautiful architecture, pride in one's country, more cultured behaviour than ever we can see in run down, broken Britain.

As a teacher in a state school, my observation is that kids struggle to read. Literacy is really poor.

This country is great for the super rich

It already has collapsed. We sold everything off and what's left is being gutted. The only way to rectify is massive spending and national control of energy, industry, and transport. But no one has the courage to do this

Living in the middle of Europe for the past 8 years, i feel saddened by the delusions some British people have about our own country. One thing that shocks me is the lack of any civic responsibility that the political class have. Family life has broken down, there's little after-natal care for mothers and minimal support for cohesive family life, houses are smaller and much of the domestic 'architecture' is outdated and shabby, the trains are FAR too expensive, there is a much higher proportion of wayward youths wandering the increasingly dangerous streets ... and finally, the damage done to our rivers and coasts by the privatisation of the water supply, the wrecked post office and the overly expensive higher education .... I could go on. There's little investigative journalism into any of the problems, and the political class seem clueless or uninterested. They have no ideas. An example of this 'we-have-the-best-in-the-world' : The universities, e.g. are so in need of money that they let in wealthy foreign students whom they sometimes know will fail the first year, in the lower grade universities actually accepting those whose English level is inadequate because they can afford to pay for the course, as fewer British students can. Student contact time with real Professors has been cut to the bone and there are not many lectures to go to anyway - cost-cutting has seen to that. Thus, some ask, are English universities really as great as they say, or do they rest on past glories? As he says, the working class in Britain used to have settled family lives, but the selling of the council houses disrupted a swathe of us, demanding that everyone get on the property bandwagon - but this was and is impossible, and simply drove house prices up further by throwing these houses onto the roulette wheel of property speculation. The wealthier can now buy several. I'm sure many reading this could add to all this.

We live in a country where the bulk of the population is in the same down trodden position as it was at the start of the industrial revolution. Britain is governed by the rich for the rich and always has been, the populace is so suppressed it will not change!.

If you're rich, then Britain is great but for the rest of us.... Same as it ever was!

The economy has undeniably collapsed, but a society collapses before an economy collapses. It was not hard to see this coming, quite the contrary actually. The economy might improve at some point but the society will never recover. The UK, as we knew it , is finished

He's fundamentally missing that education can no longer _be_ a driver of social mobility. What does it matter if you went to a good school if you're just going to have a Master's and wait tables or field HR emails for an insurance company? Increasing the knowledge represented by that Master's by having you read the classics and know Latin in high school doesn't change that Britain is a dead-end service economy with nothing to offer the world. It might get you a step or two up a ladder that's quickly sinking into the surf, but it's never going to reverse the inexorable decline of Britain.

I have been ashamed to be British ever since Thatcher's Right to Buy flooded the streets of our cities with masses of homeless people including young girls fresh out of care homes. Teenagers sleeping under flimsy blankets in shop doorways. The steps of my local underground station were covered in homeless people and their dogs. Growing up in the 50s and 60s this was never the case - my friends all lived in good quality, affordable, council housing with secure tenancies. Thatcher destroyed all that. Austerity has gone even further in immiserating the people, with large councils now declaring bankruptcy. Things have never been this dire.

Thank you Novara Media and thank you Peter Hitchens, this is exactly what the world desperately needs; good faith debates from people on opposite ends of the political spectrum.

My Grandfather told me he didn’t know why he bothered fighting away for six years and that was in the 80s

'I don't believe in war crimes, all wars are crimes'. Absolutely, a point that is not often made.

Don't know what he's talking about when he says that no one can tell you how '1984' begins and ends. It's been years since I've read it, and I still know that it begins with: 'It was a windy day in April and the clocks were striking thirteen.' and ends with: 'He loved Big Brother.'

Hitchens' views on Gaza are ridiculous... Simply because he's "visited" Israel doesn't make them more authoritative... LOL

Peter Hitchens is expert at interviews. He stops talking for a second, to let the interviewer in, then continues to talk over them

Hitchens's point about concluding that Jews need a state overlooks where this state should be. Modern Zionism believes Palestine should be ethnically cleansed to make way for this state. The rest of us wonder why an innocent group of indigenous people should suffer for this state and not the main perpetrators of antisemitism in Europe.

Bloody legendary interview! This is one people could be watching 60 years from now

He says: October 7th is 'anti-Semitic' barbarism whilst Gaza is 'ineffectual'. And he's yet to mention or acknowledge any history prior to Oct 7th.... Says it all really. Horrendous.

Lived in the Netherlands 13 years, back in uk since 2022, it’s decades behind, sad

His opening line is 100% true - the quality of life on the continent is noticably better. The gap has widened hugely in the last 15 or so years

My Irish Republican Grandfather said the problem with the British is they have never realised they no longer have an empire.

You don't realise how obsessed the UK is with war and The War until you live abroad. For example, the use of "......since the war " as a time marker, and the several war films/dramas on TV every day

His comments about people buying books and not reading them... I feel personally attacked.

Great conversation. It’s so important to hear a variety of ideas and opinions from across the spectrum. Thanks NM ❤

The economy hasn't "collapsed" though. That's an easy myth that keeps the poor supine. In fact Britain has the 6th highest GDP in the world; the problem is that a disproportionate part of that GDP "pie" goes to the very wealthy (in ways such as better infrastructure in the SE, better policing in rich areas etc). If that GDP were spent more equitably Britain would look a lot more like Denmark.

I emigrated to Australia in 1989 but try to visit every couple of years and keep abreast of current affairs. I have sadly watched over the years as the UK s successive governments have mistake after mistake hoping I was wrong . But now the chickens are coming home to roost . I can’t believe what’s happened to the country of my birth that I still love dearly.

Education is an ongoing project that goes well beyond secondary school. The idea that one's opportunities in life are set mainly by the quality of the school they go to is naive. What we need is to foster a culture of continual, lifelong learning and provide better access to adult education.

Karl Pilkington visited Israel and Palestine but it doesn't make him an authority on the conflict

Peter's notion that a hands-off approach to Israel-Palestine that focuses on soft rapproachment without concern for actual political rights is utterly infantalizing of the Arab population.

Left England years ago .. can't face what it has become........

I’ve had friends visit England over the years, and all of them were very very disappointed. They could not believe how rundown it was. A couple of them said it look like a second world country. I’m a trip to Europe next year, but I’m not stopping in England.

Aaron, in the 60s I had 3 siblings that passed the 11+ , my sister was told by her father ( my stepfather) that she could not go. One brother got expelled for anti social behaviour eg he could not adjust to middle class values and behaviour.( we were a big rough working class family) the eldest brother fitted in quite well, and eventually entered a good profession. This system was fairer for poor and clever kids. However, I believe that those with natural intelligence do well in all school systems, but the chaos and underfunding of our state education system over time can make learning challenging even for the brightest.

We waste our resources on what we used to be, possibly the best quote that encapsulates the problem with imagining what the country is.

Fundamentally, we like Peter because he recognises that Britain today doesn't work for most people and that our society is highly divided - but his view is to go back (or that it's in fact too late) to revert to some golden age in the past...

As a person of the left, I've got to admit I like listening to Peter.

I decided to leave the UK a few years ago in my late 20s for a life abroad and can't see me going back any time soon. I see no opportunities in the UK and find the rampant levels of drug addiction, crime, poverty and failing public services there to be seriously depressing. I now live in a developing country but enjoy a far better standard of living than I did before and can see a doctor whenever I want. The same cannot be said for my friends back home ..

He said quite a few interesting things, especially with history context, but his take on Palestine was surprisingly hollow.

As much as I know about it, I think that the German educational system has it about right. Give students the choice to follow a more academic or more vocational path, with schools reflecting this choice and with no stigma attach to these choices.

I'm Dutch, been living in England for 10+ years now. The UK is so run down, damp, old, dilapidated, littered, such bad infrastructure in areas, it's unreal. The NHS is bad too. It can take me twice as long by car in the UK as driving the same distance in NL simply because here in the UK if you live a bit outside a big city, you have to drive through several small towns to get onto a larger road whereas in NL most small towns are well connected to larger roads. I don't know what Britons have been doing for the past 100 years but it's clearly not been modernising or even just maintenance. If it wasn't for personal life, I'd have left the UK after my PhD.

I am a Guardian reading centrist traditionally Labour voter and I think Peter Hitchens is speaking a huge amount of sense here very eruditely... Excellent interview and superbly well done and his point that we gave up Grammar Schools (selection based on ability) and replaced it with selection based on wealth (Comprehensives and private schools) is very well made.

People like Hitchens are capable of intriguing analysis for some things but also very obviously have the blinds up for others. Disingenuous intellectuals tend to employ sophistry when it suits them and for that reason they're not my cup of tea. Nonetheless, great job once again Aaron and Novara.

As an educationist, the whole discussion on education is much more complex than what Peter is suggesting. Education policy has changed for the worse but for varied reasons.

A thoroughly enjoyable interview. Always good to hear from Peter Hitchens.

Born into the slums of a northern England industrial city in 1950 (an environment & people I loved), my 11 plus results took me into grammar school followed by access to university and my eventual degree. This allowed me to move to Australia where I had a wonderful life for 40 years. I unexpectedly found myself no longer with any living family the year before retirement which encouraged me to retire to Portugal. It was the education system of my childhood that allowed me to have the life I've had and the gratitude I have for that education system cannot adequately be put into words.

The fact that the conversation is headlined as "brink on collapse" should tell you how unwilling even open-minded British are in recognizing that they've been a constant state of decline for over a century. Very few empires collapse like the USSR where one day it just stopped existing. Most of them take decades or centuries to actually expand into their full height and then that process happens in reserve. Foreign holdings slip of their grasp, institutions stop functioning, lots of areas just stop getting resources to maintain infrastructure and other constructions and so on. It happens in such a slow manner that most people grow up and just don't care that this place or that town is basically becoming a ruin because to them its always been close to that state since they're only 30 years old. Ask someone that's 60 or 90 and they might actually remember the place being in a decent state. By the time that 30 year old has a child or a grandchild, there might not even be a ruin left. Peter is basically in that transition generation where he can at least remember some things not being completely fucked but even he doesn't remember the height of the empire and probably not even his grandparents either. That's how long this decline has been taking place. Any notion that this trend is somehow going to stop any time soon is complete nonsense. The UK could sometime in this century just become England and Wales, from a zenith where the British ruled almost half the world's land. And the conversation is framed in terms of a possible collapse? Future historians would laugh.

The grammar school debate is a very funny one, by definition they are picking the ‘brightest’ 11 year olds and leaving everyone else in the area to go to ‘lesser’ schools. How does this raise the education standards for everyone?

peter hitchens is so pompous. he's at least observing the problems that we're observing, but his central ideology just won't move with his observations so he's stuck in a nonsense nostalgia for victorian rule and 'the true conservatism'. there must be a huge conflict going on in his brain - and he releases some pressure in each interview by calling various sets of other people stupid or ignorant.

I'm nearly 70 years old and I enjoyed this interview very much, but it has destroyed me. Learning everything that I have ever been taught and believed my entire life has been a brain washing exercise by people in power to create an illusion that Britain is Great. I'm shattered!

I still live in the Netherlands, where one has a pension of up to 90% of your earnings, hard to believe that people can't pay the everyday bills in GB

"Don't try to get a solution, just accept apartheid" is a wild take.

Couldn't agree more about the transition from O-levels to GCSEs. I was in the first year to do GCSEs so our past papers were O-levels. They were definitely more challenging (just to be clear, I would have aced my O-levels - but nonetheless, I recognised even then that they were more difficult than GCSEs). And I used to teach philosophy at a university in the mid-late 90s through to about 2008. The decline in the preparedness of the students over was stark. Less capacity for independent thought; instead, a desire to be spoon fed. They seemed to think that the purpose of the lectures was to enable them to pass exams rather than actually gain knowledge.

It's refreshing to listen to a conversation that is thought-provoking and conscious regarding the modern world we live in fundamentally; our lives are changing, and how we change as a people and country is going to affect future generations here and abroad. Less pantomime and more politics is what we need and conversations like this are helpful in pursuit of this goal.

Two of my favorite minds and voices. What a joy to watch. Peter’s reveal on the second-rate state of the UK is really striking home. An insightful point about the queen extending our twilight.

Bloody hell, my parents in Spain live better than me in the UK!

I lived in the UK for 3 years in the early 2000s. At that time I was shocked by the deprivation I found, the gap between the rich and poor, the gap between the north and the south. I was shocked by the endless charity shops, porno stores, strip clubs and bookies in English towns. I was shocked by the depth of ignorance about their own history. The pervasive misogynistic vibe of that time, tits on page 3, porno mags filling every newsagents. I was shocked by the ghettoisation of migrant communities. It was clear to me then there was something unwell about England, a spirit of meanness pervaded. I came from another English speaking country, a near neighbour, and I thought I knew what Britain was like, I'd grown up listening to British pop, reading British novels, British movies, I thought I knew the country, I was wrong, it's more Ken Loach than Notting Hill for sure.

Peters right. Just look out side, everywhere looks shabby and worn out. Even now in central London, there’s empty boarded up shops with fancy decoration on the glass, to cover up the fact they are empty, and have been for a year plus, Central London! Country is scruffy as foook

tory has sold us and our nation/s down the river...and handed all of the resulting loot to some of the richest folks on earth.

I don't agree with Peter Hitchens takes on many things (however some things he says are spot on) but i always enjoy listening to him as hes atleast put some time into developing his positions and can articulate how he got there .... far too many commentators fail to explain how they got to where they are and seemingly just follow the current crowd / party talking points or sound bites.

In High School in Canada in the 1960s we were required to read 1984 and Brave New World and discuss them together.

Really enjoyed this. Very good. Nice to listen to someone talking sense for a change.

On the subject of selective education, I went to a bog-standard provincial comprehensive in the late 80s/early 90s, and the first thing I noticed on starting university, was just how thick the public school types were, and just how few of them realised it.

How could you say Israel would give the land, you should say Israel should return the land they stole. He forgot to mention that Israel was given the land of the Palestinians by the British colonisers.

Hitchens is laudably principled on Assange, Ukraine, Cannabis, Covid and religion. But on Palestine, it’s all realpolitik, pragmatism, and to hell with international law. To advocate for a Nakba to assuage Holocaust guilt is fiendishly immoral

I really, really think this is an absolute zeitgeist moment. Thanks for this phenomenally thought provoking piece.

Peter in spite of his prior comprehensive understanding of USSR and Russia. He really is not up to speed on the tyrant in the West. Still a child of empire. Pure projection.

Brilliant. Thank you both.

So much good stuff here especially on education. We've gone past the point of no return without vast investment. On grammar schools, he misses one very important point: With or without grammar schools, wealth will buy you a better education through postcode or the ability to pay for 11-plus tutoring. You can't stop wealthy parents purchasing places at grammar schools through employing private tutors to teach their kids to the test. In Halifax where grammar schools still exist, as a primary school teacher I watched many of the brightest kids miss out on a grammar school place to less able kids whose parents spent thousands on tuition for a very specific test that isn't part of the national curriculum. Halifax has some wealthy areas but far more poverty than average. Wealthy families from miles around are able to purchase a private style secondary education for an amount of money that's insignificant to them and entirely out of reach for those less wealthy.

Peter is a fascinating, intelligent guy, always enjoy listening to his honest open views, with no fear. 👌

Tv license surprises a lot of people outside Britain. It doesn’t make any sense at all

This was a very interesting listen. Thank you Aaron.

Excellent interview. I often think I have things worked out, until I listen to Peter.

We thank you both 😊😊

I knew exactly what Peter H meant by the Maltese Birth Certificate being the size of a Pillow case as my mum’s was the same. She was Maltese. Also back in the day the Police also were in charge of Driving Tests. My mum passed hers without taking the actual driving test because her father bribed the local cop with a small fishing boat. When my dad - a Royal Marine Commando based on Malta when he met my mum - found out he insisted that she took the Driving Test in England regardless of her valid driving licence from Malta which was then still British. However passing the English Driving Exam never stopped my mum driving unnecessarily fast which is a very common thing among the Maltese 😁

Fantastic enjoyable conversation and very powerful knowledge here

Great high quality interview, and I admire peter hitchins more and more over time.

I could not believe the level of deprivation that exists in some areas of this country.2024 and we're going backwards at an alarming rate.

Alone Britain is another tree in the forest, it used to be very important but for all the wrong reasons. Now Britain (or perhaps more correctly the UK) is only important due to its structural support of the USA whose, empire may be nearing collapse. The USA needs poodle states and the UK is more than happy to do it.

You learn more from your defeats or setbacks than from victory and the Brexit referendum was a perfect example of this. The amount of people that used WW2 as a reference point to vote leave was like what century are we living in

Another great interview. Aaron gets better & better at teasing out how people really think.

Just Peter's answer to the final question Aaron poses is superb. Well done Aaron for getting Peter Hitchens back on. Sadly, truly educated and insightful guests are still too rare at these long form interviews, and you've had a good one here!

He’s a slippery character in so many ways. Throughout he gives almost no cogent answers to the problems.

Britain has been a banana republic since the early 1980s

I really enjoyed this. Thank you for letting Peter speak and not interrupt him.

Noam Chomsky spoke about how education is being used to create what the government wants and the government wants compliant consumers. Uneducated people are more easily controlled, less willing to question what they are told. Now pupils are tortured when they don’t conform by being isolated with zero stimulation.

THANK YOU FOR THIS, LOVELY CHAT!

This was an interesting discussion and very informative, but it felt as if Peter Hutchens didn’t listen to Aaron’s points as well as he could. Peter was so keen to put his point of view he would interrupt mid sentence. Nobody knows everything, however well informed, and its good to listen. If you listen you might learn somethings, maybe see something a new way and your opinion might change. No one’s opinion will change if they feel they are the only one that can inform and they don’t have to listen. If Peter had focus as well when listening, for me, his opinion would have held even more weight. As he was rather dismissive at times, I couldn’t be sure he’d considered the points Aaron made. Talking to someone that starts making their point about something you’re saying before you’ve finished saying it . . . . . . . How can they really be listening and considering what’s being put to them. Minds can be changed when circumstances change and a solution must be found that protects the people from Israel and Palestine no matter how difficult and no matter how small and narrow the areas are.

Fascinating. I was a Head for 15 years in a working class secondary school. I think we do need some form of selection. But the age phasing should be different. The tertiary should begin at the end of keystage3. When we would then have vocational colleges and one for those destined for University/ Higher Ed. Many poorer people however lack what Bourdieu called the cultural capital to make the most of their education. Hence the need to direct more funding to schools in poorer areas..

Now aged almost seventy-two, during my own adolescence and working life, Prime Ministers and Archbishops of Canterbury came from Grammar Schools. Now things have been restored to where the power-filled and wealthy feel they should be. A Prime Minister from Westminster School and an Archbishop of Canterbury from Eton. So much for "levelling-up" under the Tories!

The Cameron Delusion is now in my audiobook collection, I began listening to books because I now struggle to read books thanks to my MS, the joys of being an old raspberry ripple 😅

Engaging interview. Thank you.

He's wrong on most topics. Over estimates his own intelligence and moral compass.

It's amazing how many intelligent and otherwise reasonable people stop being reasonable when they start talking about Israel Palestine issues.

If the UK kept their nose out of other countries this would not be a problem in occupied Palestine.