There is the case of people like Winston Marshall...castigated, abused and threatened because he found Andy Ngo's book interesting. He apologised but still got sacked from his band and was not forgiven. It is a section of "polite" society, that section that controls so much of public discourse these days, that demands apologies and even if given, still won't forgive and will continue to punish. This is why others say never apologise to the woke mob because they will still not forgive you.

Outstanding and remarkable work exposing the truth Peter Hitchens and Tim Stanley and Douglas Murray.! 💯 God bless you! 💯✝️🕊🙏❤️🇮🇱

To show leniency towards the criminal is to punish their victim and future victims. On a personal level forgiveness can be offered but on a state level it is criminal in and of itself to forgive crime. As we see playing out within our legal system now. Judges should be held responsible for future offenses of those they let off lightly, might focus their minds a bit.

I like this Tim Stanley guy, he and Peter interview well alongside each other.

If forgiveness is taken to be "excusing" (i.e., "It's alright, you didn't mean it, I don't mind"), which true forgiveness cannot be (if nothing objectively wrong/evil was done, then let's not waste time talking about "forgiveness"), or if forgiveness is taken to be strictly a reward for contrition ("I can't forgive until you say 'sorry'"), then the person who's been wronged, and wounded, and abused, and violated, and whose offender has no intention of any "sorries," has no hope of personal, inner release from the weight and bitterness of resentment and frustrated expectation of reparation, ever. This is why real forgiveness, which, to use the words I just heard in this video, is an "intensely private" motion of the soul, is indeed something to be done, and done with a sacred intention, even when the offender will never be repentant or in any way seek reconciliation. It is done first for the forgiver's own deliverance, his liberation from the power of the evil done to him. It is both a "Guilty!" verdict (because, after all, we only forgive wrongs) and a declaration of release ("You owe me nothing for the evil you did; I'm swallowing and eliminating it, killing it myself IN myself, so that it's gone, whether you like it or not"). The forgiver is free. As is the offender of the forgiver's wrath or expectation of recompense. Now, the offender may not care. The offender may hope for new opportunities to do the forgiver harm. And the forgiver is perfectly entitled to take every necessary measure to see to it that does not happen ("deterrence"). But the forgiver is FREE, that's the main thing. Free to move on, ahead, in the spaciousness and lightness of wholeness. And that is why, 1) forgiveness is no kind of naive repudiation of either self-defence or deterrence, and, 2) forgiveness does not require contrition. I can forgive, say, the man who attempted to kill me and in the attempt left me horribly incapacitated, maimed, for life. But that man must never be allowed to repeat his crime. Society's well-being demands it. If it means putting him away even for life, then so be it. It doesn't matter whether his imprisonment "deters" other from doing the same. It will deter THAT MAN from ever repeating his malignant behaviors out there among decent society, and that's enough.

The injunction against apologising to online mobs applies when you haven't done wrong. The mistake is in think it'll satisfy bad faith actors.

Thanks for the video guys.

What a wonderful conversation.

Peter’s sonorous tone is impressively unique - bass + subtle whistle!

Keeping your heart pure ...

We shall see how forgiving the Scots police are with the new hate crime law.I expect forgiveness will only be given to certain schools of thought.

Great conversation

The new paradigm doesnt need forgiveness bc its perfect. Thst is why it cannot tolerate past sins, bc if it does not rid itself of all sins it will need forgiveness and that will not be perfection. The reality of Winston Smith holding an instance of imperfection in his hand before dispatching it to the furnace hole is now very much upon us. Soon all trace of empire will be gone. We will never have had an empire and anyone suggesting we did will be arrested for hate speech.

Best Regards.

Is it beyond everyone's notice that we have a month celebrating our pride every year? Pride in engaging in unregenerative sex? Or that today on Easter Sunday, the streets of London public decorations are celebrating Eid and not Easter? We wouldn't be doing these thing as a society, not even objecting, if we believed or even understood the Christian message.

I understand my own failings and use that understanding to correct or act as I see fit to challenge those failings. I try to understand others and find ways of moving past any wrong done to me or others. Forgiveness does not enter into it. It’s a religious doctrine that has more in common with the laying on hands and a prayer for someone with cancer. If the chemotherapy works , the religious can say it was the prayer that did it. Forgiveness is a similar tool . Understanding is the key.

After watching Boris lie should we ask anyone to repent anything given how low standards have become the higher the public office. This debate on forgiveness in the light of the Post Office miscarriagevof justice is positively criminslly insane.

Mr Hitchens I seen you in Oxford you cycled past me I was laying slabs

Such an excellent discussion that has crystallised why (after over 80 years) I am not a Christian in faith, quite apart from finding God an unbelievable entity. I could not love my enemies. But I appreciate the traditions of morality which Christianity has brought to our country.

Forgiving someone for Murder is the most IMMORAL act of all! It does not resurrect the victim, it does not redeem the murderer and it does not compensate the grieving loved ones. It does nothing but amplify suffering. Forgiveness for everything else may be acceptable under the right circumstances.

I find it effective to attribute blame elsewhere but take full responsibility when apologising. ;-)

This was an unexpectedly shallow conversation.

Okay

There isn’t an unofficial Death Penalty. Police shootings and suicide in Jail are nothing to do with a Death Penalty. The official Death Penalty was Capital punishment for committing Murder, and we all knew where we were then. The Murderer understood with great horror, from the moment the Judge had the Black Cap placed on his wig, the victims family may have derived an element of satisfaction from the judgement, the Hangman performed his grim task with efficiency, as tasked by the State. Sometimes the Prisoner repented before the Hangman entered his cell, and on other occasions protested his innocence up to the moment the bolt was withdrawn. Repenting made no difference to what was about to happen, and was probably fairly pointless. Saying sorry under duress slips off the tongue with ease.

In his interview of Netanyahu should Douglas Murray be forgiven for not asking why he marched in the mock funeral of Rabin; why he raised a map prior to Oct 7 while stating Israel's ambitions in the words "from the river to the sea"; or justifying from his own perspective at least all that has happened to the Palestinians on the basis that 'No one likes them'. Are there conditions upon which forgivemess is contingent ? Murray writing about forgiveness is appropriate.

If you put your faith in state and governments and kings and queens then your rights can be taken away but if we put our faith in God then our rights are retained because God never changes and never lies

When politicians cancelled capital punishment they imposed the duty on police officers, no doubt finding the cop-out of their responsibilities and the convenience of placing officers in the dock more congenial to their collective conscience.

Re. PH's comment about the unofficial death penalty, who exactly are these people that he claims the police go around shooting dead?

What people dont realise is that death has MANY different faces!! People look at CLINICAL death, not at the death of morals, death of friendship, financial death ( Taxed þo death ), death of freedom of speech, restriction of freedom of movement. The Chiristian faith is dying!! Forgivness ebbs away when this happens. We all live through our own death penalties.

What is peter talking about when he said " we have an unofficial death penalty" ? something other that death by cop

We should refer to him as Peter the Great ❤ one of the two most brilliant men in Britain (the other being Douglas) 🇬🇧

The gospels demonstrate a very clear difference between "sorry" and repentance. Repentance is a conscious decision to turn from evil and practice good. It might be accompanied by emotion and regret but this is largely irrelevant. Feelings, schmeelings. Either repent or don't. Repent means to turn away from your sin and turn to God. Stop doing it your way and do it His way. It is very difficult for people to understand this, perhaps due to good people like these two fellows using improper language to describe the principle. Judas was filled with remorse (sorry) and was condemned. Like a child throwing a tantrum, remorse cannot fix anything, cannot make amends and cannot bring you into a place of forgiveness or reconciliation with God.

I wonder is Hitchens asked Alex O'Connor for forgiveness for behaving terribly on his podcast

The bit in the Bible which converted me to Humanism, from Christianity was Romans 12;20, But too much else depends on the believers' interpretation of men's attempts to explain the world. Some good, many not. I hope one current religion will reform soon...

When god talks to me il believe in him. People find it hard to believe in something u never see, feel, or touch. No intelligent creature can believe in a mythology one.

God can afford to forgive all the time, because he has unlimited power and resources. If there is a member of your family who behaves abusively and injuriously to others habitually, you do not have the power or resources to forgive him, so must shun him and exclude him in order to protect others; or protect yourself. The "forgiveness of sins" is God's prerogative. We have to protect others and ourselves against evil and harm. Contrition is a prerequisite in any case.

Who is that chatterbox sitting by Peter? I’m not here to listen to him!

An essential topic in a culture of widespread VICTIM Culture

Every time I see Hitchens, I can guarantee that he will always interrupt and talk over others.

Nice chat. Forging seems to trump cancel culture, eh?

Jesus said forgive them because they know not what they are doing .... they weren't sorry but he forgave anyway and asked his father to do the same.

Christianity says that women are in charge, do not question their lies, give the church more money than any business will ever see, God agrees that taxes are theft, the homeless can sleep in their own damn graveyard.

The Person most offended is God. When we sin in any way - seriously or in a way we feel is less serious - God is the one we offend and we need to confess and get His forgiveness. God hates sin - even the lie! Every sin is serious to God. God says the wages of sin is death. That means eternal death under His just punishment. Yes we are to forgive but law has its correct place to punish offenders to keep society safe. Gid put government in place for that reason. But ultimately it is forgiveness from God that is of final importance. People pay no attention to God any more and are constantly breaking His Holy Laws. K

Invoking a God and his so called dictums undermines the true nature of forgiveness. It is for the individual without recourse to a God that is the true forgiver.

If you are on the Right Tim then your choice of Scottish football team is all wrong mate.

Douglas Murray is the right guy to talk about forgiveness 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂Absolutely ridiculous

Police shooting people isn't the same thing as the death penalty. Not sure what Hitchens is trying to achieve here. By all means, criticise the police for their corruption, incompetence and bias, but don't call something what it is not.

forgiveness gives them permission to do it again, imo

Anybody invoking the Bible loses my interest at that point. These are particularly tedious run-of-the-mill thinkers - goodbye!

The wrong brother died !

Okay