Eclipse's seemingly-random interactions actually all share a common factor: Mirage is, canonically, The Biggest Troll, so it's only to be expected that the ability you get from sacrificing her to the pogwall continues to troll in her absence. It's not buggy, it's lore-accurate.

I love how rhino, even as a helminth ability, can be summed up as "it just works." My boi just casually chillin' and still being a top tier frame from day 1

I think the most interesting application of Eclipse is the DR for sure: it makes shield tanking suddenly viable without needing to do funky shield gate shenanigans.

Eclipse is the new bane of kengineer

"...Condition Overload." I audibly groaned. There's nothing more ominous in a Warframe optimization video than mentioning that line of mods. Excellent video, you had me convinced as soon as you mentioned CO.

excellent video, it really comes down to "you want stable predictible damage"(roar) or "maybe you want some defense on the side"(eclipse) i really like quadrupling my EHP on certain frames with the 75% dr, it's nice

Why do I feel like I understand less AFTER the video ?

So this is a math game where math don't math

Ngl a more interesting comparison is when to use Xata’s over Roar. A video on that would be very appreciated as especially after the bugged interaction with DA being patched, it’s not so cut and dry.

Warframe's spaghetti code never ceases to amaze me

I'll summarize the whole video: Roar is better than Eclipse

Rhino is the Toyota HiLux of frames, Can fit any weapon needed for your combat objective and just works. side note is why does Warframe's math have to be so complex, at times it feels like nothing about modding is intuitive and it does not help that faction mods for example reflect nothing in the modding UI. If you drop a Serration in there the number gets bigger and you can tell its going to do more hurtin, Drop a bane in there and the number stays the same.

So, exactly what I've been telling people since before the helminth nerf. They wouldn't believe me then point out someone who only did on hit damage equations. Look who's laughing now

Vex Armor sitting in the corner with it's new rubber mallet...

ooo, nice vid. I didn't know about the particulars of eclipse with CO or thrown melee, or the edge case of Nova 2. those are niche enough that Roar is still pretty clearly the pick if you're not literally just trying to get the DR tho.

A minor but notable difference is recasting for shield gates. Eclipse can be recast at the caster's leisure, but Roar requires its augment to do so. Granted any build that wants to shield gate will have abilities that work better than a 25 energy cost buff, but it is an option.

Thanks for the video. It sounds like a maddening experience finding and picking apart all of these inconsistencies.

Great video as always, though the subtitles are acting up again

I think it’s decent for the damage reduction but if purely looking for damage then there’s no question.

I am not going to lie: this video opened my eyes so much and finally debunked many things my friends call me out on with using CO bonuses on hit-scan/radial attack projectile-weapons, or even Eclipse. I salute you for this glorious eye-opener.

Love the thumbnail . Roarlillion votes for roar

very glad this can be more streamlined with the resistance changes in the next mainline, even as a veteran its not surprising that the viral + heat combination can be one of the easiest damage synergies to understand.

Roar on a strength modded revenant with 5 red archon shards makes enemies disappear. Add viral stacks and reave and you clear hallways at a time

Saw the eclipse change, all I cared about was the DR. After they announced the subsumed base dmg of Eclipse, it's basically saying, take Roar for dmg and take Eclipse for DR.

I googled this exact thing 4 hours ago this morning and you make a video about it? I'm living in a personalized simulation based around me playing Warframe for sure.

I've began to think this is one of the best if not the best WF youtube channel out there.

A pretty good video. Thanks. So, for ProfitTaker it is better to get ecplise for the exodia contagion buff, and just apply roar for everything else. Is that it?

does wolf sledge also use eclipse twice or is it better off with roar? it's kind of a thrown melee, even if it doesn't use thrown weapon mods.

"Stick with Roar, it works" is a great synopsis that I've come to myself as well xD

I love using the new eclipse on inaros because having free DR or free dmg whenever I wish to is just fantastic

So the bottom line is, if I want to utilize eclipse damage, I should use thrown melee or projectile weapons. Shame, I had it on a volt-amprex loadout but I guess I'll have to find a projectile aoe primary instead.

Very insightful, thanks man

The MIGHTY SEER benefits from both

Summary: Roar: Best for an overall damage focus, unless it’s a weird case like Nova’s Antimatter Absorb. Eclipse: Best for if you need an extra DR source for something to be viable, while still being able to give your damage a little kick when the time suits it. Also the best subsume to pair with Nova’s Antimatter Drop

I'd love your mirage build! I want to play her more but ive always struggled to pick her bc i really dont know what i should be rocking with to make her shine the most. Could you please share the build? Thanks (i also love your vids, the math makes sense for once when someone else says it)

For those that don't get the math: 4:40 10(Base) * (1 + 1.65) * (1 + 5) = 159 * 100 = 1590% 10 * 2.65 * 6 = 159 which is 1590% increase from 10 base. First percentage to multiplier then back to percentage

I only use eclipse on Baruuk, the damage reduction instance is so good on him. And if I'm bored, I'll just switch to damage buff and serene storm my way out.

Secondary question, if breach surge is counted as weapon damage, does archon orange shards that buff ability radiaton damage work on it?

I got so confused watching this video that I zoned out and started staring at my foot

Honestly the only take-away I got from this video; is the knowledge that eclipse is now a tap/hold ability. I don’t pay attention to patch notes and what not that much so it was a very pleasant surprise for me Can now guarantee myself the 600%+ damage increase i have for mirage without fighting lighting and bs

Eclipse needs to just give both reduction and damage with slightly lower bonus but higher cap than it currently does. Just so that its still usable and not completely overshadowed.

How does the enemies are highlighted in red? It is a pretty nice QOL. Also, nice video as always.

One point you did not mention is whether Roar buffs all ability damage without exception, which would be another advantage. Is that (still) the case?

as a main rhino, i see this as a personal win

As a casual just collecting cool space ninjas to color watching someone crack out the math charts on this game is so wild, showing just how little i know 150/200 hs in.

Everyone subsumes roar and strongest roar stays, so if you run eclipse you can double up or have roar + resistances.

Meh, I use both for fun. Both are good buffer abilities in their own right, one buffs ability & weapon dmg while the other just buffs weapons with DR to negate taken dmg. . At the end of the day just pick your poison since Jade might end up powercreeping both abilities anyways

Any videos going over heat inherit? Thats one mechanic i dont really understand.

Until eclipse is buffed to at least 60%... Just pretend you're a wizard in D&D and roar is fireball. Just use fireball. Every time. Fireball solves all problems.

What about Volt eclipse, rubico prime, no riven. Can it still oneshot Harry? Or useless now?

I have a question about your section on condition overload. According to the warframe wiki, "The bonus damage gained by this mod [condition overload] stacks additively with other damage mods like Pressure Point and Spoiled Strike to increase your melee damage." Based on the information you've provided, does that mean the warframe wiki is incorrect? It sounds as though the wiki only accounts for hit-scan weapons and ignores the way condition overload interacts with projectile and radial weapons. Does this mean that galvanized aptitude (with it being a part of the condition overload family of mods) is good for a weapon like the acceltra because it's a projectile weapon or bad for the acceltra because the acceltra also produces radial damage. Should I be considering serration on my acceltra? Should all radial weapons avoid this family of mods?

Conclusion. Eclipse is only good if you primarily want it for damage resistance and the option for damage boost can be used situationally. IDK if that makes it worse than Roar since it can at least fill two roles.

I used to always subsume roar because the damage is better and eclipse was way too inconsistent. But now I actually use eclipse now for some of my other warframes that could use damage reduction and that little bit of extra damage, i sometimes use it over roar even though the damage bonus is no where near as good

The only time i use eclipse is in niche cases where i want the damage reduction aspect on it with frames that have low survivability like Gyre

Me now pondering Eclipse+Adaptation on Hildryn

hopefully they streamline this after the armor changes and make CO multiplicative even if at lower values. for eclipse it should have been reduced to 75% matching the damage reduction and being an option worth considering compared to roar

would eclipse be better for mesa's regulators, or would roar be better?

i just use roar for most missions and eclipse alomost exclusively for eidolons/pt

Does the part about glaives at ~8:00 apply to other thrown melees? Such as the Wolf Slege

Thanks for this.

How much ability strength do I need to mimic a Primed faction mod?

Glaives just scale weirdly with additive damage, its the reason why chroma or limbo are going to hit higher numbers with those than mirage will cause they can get insanely high additive damage which is (im pretty sure) scaled into multiplicative damage

Pasmor and its tenet version have multiplicative CO. Many other veapons like that also have this thing.

Does Zenistar's disk also get the Eclipse buff twice?

Weren't the changes to Eclipse also supposed to make it always an additive bonus, like Vex Armor? Did that just not happen?

i love your channel

Hey ken, any chance of a valkyr guide in our future? Ive been working on her a while and was hoping to level up my game somewhat

Wait what? Eclipse doesnt auto change corresponding to light intensity any more?

so eclipse might be ok for non-hitscan non-explosive weapons

I reversed the key binds so that light mode is a quick tap and hold is dark mode

Not to add more to this already massive subject of comparisons. But how does this fare against Nourish and the damage potential (only) that it brings as a consequence of viral status? Obviously you can double team these just the same as eclipse and roar, but is it more or less advantageous to get innate viral for your weapons when compared to eclipse and roar?

Are they better than xata’s whisper and sentient wrath? Mainly for endgame level cap, since overguard is more annoying to deal with at that point.

So, in general, Roar is better for status builds and Eclipse is better for raw damage. Also, apply the double Equinox school of thought and try to use the one buff or the other if you know your ally has one of them.

Eclipse just became the " screw it have i think it was 72 or 75% DR" ability. Made a protea with this as her 4 and general powe not 4 power with shield fan and it kinda works

I really wish the game would tell you wether a damage bonus is additive(and to what) or multiplicative or absolute. Maybe all different types of damage increase should have a color code

I use eclipse on nekros. Lunar eclipsebfor the DR when I don't have shield of shadows up, and then activate solar for extra damage and can go back to the damage reduction if my shields start to deplete too fast

Hello I just wanted to ask have you tried Lavos with Eclipse over Vial rush with Valence augment? It seems to make you almost invulnerable permanent Shield Gate weapon platform with some shield Regen mods lol!! I wanted to Take Lavos to level cap with this setup to test the limits of Tankyness but I don't have the time...The build is basically Catalyzing shields with a bunch of shield recharge and recharge delay mods! I may even invest some Orange shards for Blast proc shield Regen.. and maybe Cast rate cuz having to use ability animations in Weapon Platform build lowers your DPS (hence why I replace vial rush cuz it's unneeded I only need my weapon and Tankyness buffed by valence)

it used to improve synthesis scanning speed?! how does something like that even happen??

I got about half way through that video before my eyes glazed over and I said "f#ck it, I'll just use Roar"

I already have Roar subsumed and you stated Roar is just the better pick most of the time, but man Eclipse Titania seems really fun i want to try it out lol

Think of it this way. If you can just press fire and hit something, bring Roar. If you need to treat the shot like an arrow, bring Eclipse. This also applies to abilities which is why Nova and Wisp works. I feel that Eclipse is being over-nerfed. Couple that with no air heavy attack, the Contagion arcane mechanic is completely neutered. Not intended they say. Well okay but Glaives are hitting the same numbers, without the investment in Zaw parts or the arcane. Sorry I digressed.

What about zata's wisper

Splinter Storm also (kinda) double dip with Eclipse

Please don't use projectile/hitscan/aoe to assume if weapons use multiplicative CO. Majority of projectiles are calculated additively. And it's like only about 10-25% of projectiles use multiplicative CO calculations. For example : Boltor, Bolto, all bows in non-incarnon form (except Nataruk, Cinta) calculated CO additively The only consistency is that all guns that shoot Arca-Plasmor-like projectiles use multiplicative CO. so it's far far far better to find CO spread sheet. Blame DE for the inconsistency on the mod >.>

I cant imagine the hours his discord must have thaken to research this.

Does the damage boost from Galvanized Aptitude affect the chained beams on Amprex or Torid?

Hey Kengineer, I just saw a video about Miter incarnon and thought about how good anything homing is on max duration & ammo efficiency Gauss. Would you like to make a video about Gauss being broken afk shield gater? I literally don't do anything and he just doesn't die because... shield, you don't even have to press buttons. New meta unlocked - stare at the screen intensely.

So does eclipse or roar work on mesa after the nerf

What in the D4 itemization

Is there a better damage reduction subsume than Eclipse?

Do you have a build on that Boltor Incarnon

I personally hate how the CO mods are so inconsistent and unexplained they are they need to be fixed

Kinda curious and not sure if someone in the comments brought it up or not, but how would this affect Eidelon hunts? Would roar or Eclipse be better? I'd always bring Eclipse on my volt for Eidelon hunts but with the changes now I'm not sure which one is better

Hello tenno, is there any way to reduce the damage dealt to the overguard? So I can reduce the dmg dealt to Rhino's overguard or iron skin.?

maybe works but cast time on anything now is just uuugh. Wish I never tried 5 cast shards, natural, power transfer. Now I know why casting isnt a thing in warframe.

2:15 I like to call these Blight Damage

this video is sponsored by copiom from the warframe community because DE doesn't make anything bad

How about Nourish vs Roar?

Yes

Eclipse good weapons and i usually use it with that damage reduction. Roar i use that if i need mofe ability damage simple.