Hey Guys, I'm not the largest fan of this video.. but I tried some new things to see if I can show the actual video. Is this something you want? The Actual videos or my more.. 'picture slide' videos?

Is Starfleet evil? No. Are they good? No. Are they arrogant af? Yup.

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"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people - as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts... deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers... put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time... and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. " - Quark on Starfleet and Humanity

I believe that Starfleet feels that they are morally superior to most other cultures, and this causes them to be so arrogant that they are blind to their own flaws. The Dominion war forced Starfleet to change their views and do what needed to be done for survival. Starfleet and the federation are ultimately good, benefiting trillions of people and striving to constantly improve the lives of its citizens and allies. The wars, however, made them realize that they were not as perfect as they once thought. Quark has no problem openly criticizing Starfleet and the federation. He calls it like he sees it, and that's why he's my favorite character in all of Trek. That's probably why I like Lore's videos so much.

The Federation is like root beer. It's insidious...

I personally think that Starfleet was a victim of its own success and became both arrogant and complacent. After the Klingons became allies and the Romulans became introverted there was no one who would or could seriously challenge the Federation. In essence they had 'won', and it went to their heads. Add the fact that Starfleet believed it held the moral high ground due to it being a democracy of many races as opposed to its more militant imperial neighbours and you can see why they decided they were less a military than an exploratory fleet of scientists and diplomats who let their skills at battle atrophy. In a way, Q actually saved the Federation when he 'introduced' them to the Borg. And by that, I mean giving the Federation prior warning that the Borg were heading their way and that they were not to be underestimated. It really was the kick to the rear that Starfleet needed to begin the slow process of becoming a competent military again...

every villain is the hero of their own narrative.

"The Good Guys" is a trademark owned by Evil, Inc.

That patrion message wording had me on the floor rolling LMAO

Are Starfleet the Baddies? Lore, have you been watching the Cardassian and Romulan holo networks and news again

Sisko actually made a great speech/rant to kira in an episode dealing with the maquis (i think actually "the maquis" as a matter of fact) about how it's east to be morally upstanding and forthright when you're living in the middle of the cushy utopia that is the federation built for itself, but outside, the rules break down, and thus so the moral inflexibility does too.

I think Quark summed Humanity up the best in two instances, the first when he and Garak compare the Federation (mainly Humans) to root bear, and the second Quark warns Nog about Humans in the siege of AR-558

Short answer yes with an if. Long answer no with a but.

From a certain point of view........Yes? The ad? Now that was true evil.

Is Starfleet "evil"? Lol no, they can be best described as "high strung idealist rascals". Wanna see evil(even if only to survive)? IMPERIUM OF MAN Yeah, SF is nowhere near that. With that said, sure, SF can be "baddies" of a story and I'd REALLY like to see more of that. That's why I always wanted a series focused largely on Klingons or Romulans. Preferably on Roms given that we haven't been to Beta yet.

James, Miles O'Brien had massive PTSD & survivor's guilt & as someone who also has it, I have sat in a room, alone with my .45 & thought about eating a bullet. It helped me to see my favorite character in DS9 go through what I was. Btw, why do I flash upon Mitchel & Webb's "Are we the baddies?" skit?

Starfleet isn't out to conquer, oppress or enslave others

It's depends on a certain point of view. Arguments can be made for both. I find Eddington right what he says

"You don't have to be perfect to be the good guys." Lore, you just described every D&D character. From Lawful Good to Chaotic Evil.

Anybody else need a cigarette after that commercial 😂 ! Perhaps the Federation would function more efficiently if not more aggressively if Palpatine was it's emperor !

Love these what if videos keep them coming Lore master

That ad was the most hilarious I've heard in a long time lol

I enjoy your reviews as they offer a different point of view. It doesn't matter if I agree with them or not, a different way of enjoying Trek is something I'm always up for.

I think the biggest flaw in ds9 is how they handled the wormhole travel after the dominion showed up, they seriously knew going in there was going to push buttons and they didn't really try to get into contact with the dominion they just invaded more. I think a more "smart starfleet" thing to do would've been to park a galaxy class on the other side of the wormhole sending a signal they wished to speak with the dominion, and kept trying to reopen talks, until starfleet knew how far the dominion extended going into their space was a bad idea, and if they could've reached an agreement that starfleet exploration would happen near dominion space in return the dominion could trade with the federation.. etc would've stopped the war.. but that isn't how the story wanted to go. the changlings were always going to try to take over everywhere, Starfleet was always going to explore no matter the cost.. even though it had many other directions to go!

Your views on whether Starfleet is evil will depend greatly on which is your favourite show. TOS - No - but depends on your view of its pseudo-1960s values. TNG - No - but depends on your view of the Prime Directive. DS9 - Multiple layers of grey. VOY - Maybe - depends on your view of Janeway and the Prime Directive. ENT - Maybe - depends on your view of Archer and the Valakians. STD - lol - they tried to make space Hitler a member of the crew.

Really Lore, suffering from ED while Picard has mounted you and is asking you to sing sweet nothings? Surely not...

OMFG Lore Reloaded that goddamn interlude about the videos becoming shorter made feel guilty for laughing so hard. I love your sense of humour.

Nurse, he's out of bed again. Get the tranquilizer.

Early TNG’s narrative being propaganda a la Starship Troopers would be interesting.

This is the most I've ever wanted to support a star trek channel in my life

Before I watch: For shame Lore questioning the holiest of the holys Starfleet!

"We've never attacked you, yet we find ourselves branded as terrorists and hunted down. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. No-one leaves paradise. In some ways you're worse than the Borg. At least they make their intentions of assimilation clear."- Eddington, Maquis leader.

Gene Roddenberry, may he rest in peace, was a utopian fool. After the original series he had far too much time surrounded by sycophants at conventions developing the philosophy of Starfleet absent the pragmatic hand of reality. Series since the Next Generation and it's later seasons are simply the rubber hitting the road.

So the Federation is Batman?🤔

I'm a stick my neck out and say. Yes. With the quote. "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villian."

That patreon ad insertion was so good it had me screaming with joy.

StarFleet is an organization that sometimes just doesn’t know when to quit. They think they can get along with everybody and throw a hissy fit when a foreign power says “leave us alone.” I liked the fiery speech Sisco made to Kira when the Maquis started rebelling which I think sums up the Federation’s attitude really well. The Federation thinks it is all high and mighty but acts in total disregard for how their decisions affect their citizens on occasion. They got aggressive with the Dominion so its no surprise they responded in kind. StarFleet is very much a ‘human’ organization. Evil? No. Arrogant? Absolutely.

Great intro!!

Wow the ED ad for patreon was bad but I was laughing.

You can't bread War out of the best damn Endurance Predator. Only delay the inevitable.

Ok the panhandling was dam funny 😂

Just what I needed

Short answer: Well yes, but actually no.

That ad. Wow I have to give props on that.

A great quote is “choosing between right and wrong is easy, it’s choosing the wrong that is more right”. I suppose that’s why Sisko makes a fascinating character to analyse.

Well said!

I've been subscribe for a while & I feel like this video is 3 years too late.... But wherever I'm glad it's finally here

The Next Generation is a big part of why I loved Star Trek.

Omg that midroll nearly ran me off the road hahaha

They indeed don't need to be saints in that universe, they're just better than everyone else, most of their neighbours do slavery, after all

After I watch: Of course I agree with you Lore, Star Trek has always been about pushing and trying for the ideal. But humankind isn't yet we still strive for it.

And gotta give it to the original series use of Roosevelts use of speak softly yet use a big stick

Discovery has shown us, that yes they are the villains. They almost rival Captain Marvel in the lack of moral character.

Your title sequence with the music is over-the-top buddy, just a heads up for ya!

The federation is a industrial military complex...bend on controlling the alpha quadrant...ask any non-federation planet

Honestly they’re neither good or bad. They’re ran by people; and Quark did put it accurately. “Humans are a friendly wonderful people when their bellies are full and their holosuites are working; take away their creature comforts and they become as nasty as the most bloodthirsty klingon” when the federation and by extension starfleet had their backs against the wall during the dominion war they resorted to by any means necessary to win even overlooking what Benjamin sisko did.

Star fleet like everything else has good intentions but they aren’t the heroes. They are good from a human way of thinking. Aliens would be right to feel we act superior but aren’t. We are still only human and humans are rarely all good or bad even in the future. I feel like they do more good for their people than bad so that makes them a good symbol of order. I’d say they aren’t directly the bad guys but they do bad things sometimes for their own agenda. Which from their perspective meant good or as good as they could be or the universe allows them.

I always felt like Picard was pushing the philosophy of the Federation to it's highest standards, I always assumed there would be many that found his bar to high to match, not that they would be terrible just that we are still human, also with many emotional non humans all with differing views on what it means to be Starfleet, for me he was the best of the best and no one before or after would ever manage to match his overall record, this is how I felt and how I remember it, happy if anyone want's to suggest another as it only adds to the list of greatness, love to all

the pictures you used freaked me out a bit!

What about selling suppliments... Eg Super Klingon Vitality Vulcan Logic Plus Ketracel white ?

Can you specifically make you video aspect ratio so it looks right on my phone and only my phone 😜

When you say evil, do you mean like lawful evil?

My dude, the snarkiness: I can't get enough of it! But yes, I love DS9 and Voyager for the very reason that it shows that Starfleet is imperfect because they are still simply human.

I know I am 3 years late to the show but I wanted to add my 2 cents. The stated ethos of the federation would make seem to be primarily explorers and diplomats but there is a reason Starfleet has a naval command structure and that their ships are so heavily armed they can go toe to toe with the dedicated warships of military powers like the Klingons and Romulans. I believe Roddenberry's vision of starfleet can be compared with many modern Americas view of our own military history. Many Americans love to think of this as a nation of peace and freedom, who only maintain the worlds most powerful military purely for defense and not to further our own political interests. But the reality is that in it's 240 years history America has engaged in over 100 armed conflicts. That averages out to about one every 2.4 years. In star Trek we hear about the dozens of conflicts the federation has engaged in. The Klingons, The Romulans, The Ferengi, The Tholians, The Gorn, The Xindi, The Borg, The Talarians, The Cardassians, The Dominion, The Tzenkethi, The Breen... the list goes on and on and every time the federation are written as unwilling participants who just thankfully happen to have hundreds of heavily armed ships on standby. I call BS just like I call BS about America always being cast as the "Good Guy" reluctantly fighting evil. Isn't it interesting the vast majority of the federation conflicts happen much farther away from earth and much closer to other peoples borders. Just like how many people in the US always claiming we just defend American Freedom yet most of our wars are as far away from America as you can get. Spooky coincidence. If you arm yourself to the teeth then go "exploring" around where other people live and notice you keep having to kill all these "hostile aliens" maybe you should ask yourself some questions, lol. Rodenberry's vision of starfleet was schizophrenic. Let's start with a naval command structure, give them a large fleet of heavily armed vessels, have them fight dozens of species but make clear in all our scripts they are "explorers". I am pretty sure any white man born in 1921 would have also considered Columbus, Coronado and Pizzaro as "primarily explorers." To be clear I myself do not believe the federation is "evil". But they can absolutely be viewed as implacable in their designs. They spread everywhere. "Peaceful" but insistent. And when they inevitably provoke a reaction from cultures with different morals and beliefs, then it's "isn't it lucky we have all these ships with phasers and torpedoes for our war of defense?". There is an old saying...if you wake up in the morning and have an argument with one guy, maybe you just bumped into an asshole. But if you spend your whole day fighting with half the people you meet...maybe YOU'RE the asshole. Maybe the federation should just stay in it's lane and there wouldn't be so many "unfortunate incidents" with hundreds of civilians stuffed into heavily armed "exploration vessels".

Picard says it best here with this line “The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity”. The key word there is “WORK” they’re not there yet they’re striving to be better they aren’t just better

Good analysis, clear and on target. 2 related questions you may want to address: 1) the often repeated idea that “Star fleet isn’t the military”. 2) Star Trek’s constant contempt for civilians. Civilian authorities are often irrelevant and/or incompetent. In Star Trek, only the military matters.

In Star Trek: Picard, Starfleet is corrupted.

"Hans.......are we the baddies?" -The Micheal and Webb Show

I always thought that the "evolved humanity" that Picard touts (no money, working for self- improvement, no war, famine or poverty) was BS. Earth in the Star Trek 24th century may have been "paradise" compared to previous centuries, but people are still people and people are imperfect.

Here we go

What song do you use for your intro music?

Michael Eddington was not incorrect.

My problem with Starfleet would have to be half measures. Many of their greatest problems arose from their inability to act decisively.

From the Terran Empire prospective, yes...

Section 81 and a certain captain of a refurbished cardassian space station makes me wander... Mind you, that takes place later on...

Lots of this stuff can also be due to writers who really want to see the heroes as heroic, but are having to write stories on a deadline without allowing time to think of large-scale repercussions, implications, or what they might do with the groundwork they've laid later on. In turn this comes off as character actions which seem to be, and often are, exceedingly short-sighted. But what I've just said is a one-and-done statement, and it's not very fun. What is fun is to break events down from different sides, look through them as they happen, and try to surprise yourself with your own conclusions. Whether you're looking at a piece of writing you love, or even something you wrote yourself. Those who said "stop, you're portraying the heroes wrong" were just missing out on that fun. And if I wasn't getting here two years after the fact, I'd have said that -- while following the logic and still coming to a different opinion is fine -- if they weren't willing to follow the logic because they couldn't take a little surprise, then that's their loss, and they have no business telling you it's yours. :)

Theodore Roosevelt said " speak softly and carry a big stick". This is how Starfleet should act in all situations.

I'm a little late to the party, but I think I should throw in how I feel about it. The Federarion has historically competed with other interstellar governments mainly because they became so large, and quickly at that. They were forced to defend from incursions (primarily from the then extremely powerful Klingon Empire during the original series and early films) on a regular basis. I think the reason these incursions occurred at all was probably because other governments viewed the Federation as highly intrusive, if not outright aggressors. Sort of like a neighbor who took it upon himself to mow your lawn for you after he overheard your wife lecturing you about it. And he made sure she knew he did it instead of you. You get the idea, and yes this is just hypothetical. It is possible for someone to perform a good act with the sole aim of undermining someone else's confidence and standing with other people. It's a form of gaslighting, and the Federation has done it all the time. Nobody likes being poked by someone like that. And if the Federation had just focused more on themselves instead of worrying so much about their neighbors, they may not have had so many enemies.

I always felt like the Federation has a lot in common with "The Culture" from Ian M. Bank's books - as in both can be seen as idealistic, utopian civilizations in a way - but when you take a closer look, it's not perfect, there's some really dark sides to them. Which is not to say that they're not trying to be the good guys. They may very well *aspire* to be the good guys of the universe, there's not some grand malicious plan per-se, but these good intentions on a grand scale still don't mean everyone at every time is gonna make the right call and act for the best of all.

Lol the plug at min 3. Lol ❤️ 💖

Yes, of course the feddiebears are the enemy! Long live the (bare-midriffed-and-slightly-chilly) Empire!

We've got skulls on our caps...

Hahaha that thumbnail!! Finally Sisko's true form!

This is you're most reasonable video that I've watched and I must have seen up to 40. I don't mean this as an insult either.

What episode is that scene at 2:29?

Obriens suicide attempt was great and very relatable, I just wish there were more episodes of him "recovering" from his implanted memories

To be fair, Garak murdered Kretak in order to manipulate the Romulans into joining the war against the Dominion. Sisko was lying to Kretak to achieve the same thing but murder didn't enter into Sisko's mind. Sisko was forced to go along with Garak's murder of Kretak in order to keep the Romulans from finding out the truth about Kretak's murder AND how Sisko had faked the recording of the Dominion plotting the invasion of Romulus.

A theory I want to propose... Could Guinan have been a Section 31 agent?

2:52 Ok, I lost my shit at that.

If I had money I'd become a patreon just because of your little ED segment... haha

I"m a pretty rabid ST fan in general, but I have no idea what he means by "Starfleet sending warships to smuggle Federation contraband," at 2:08. Anyone able to help me out here?

"So… I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover up the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But most damning of all… I think I can live with it… And if I had to do it all over again… I would. Garak was right about one thing - a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it…Because I can live with it…I can live with it." - Benjamin Sisko ( Basically that quote at the ending of In The Pale Moonlight encapsulates this sentiment.. )

I never thought starfleet were the bad guys but i also never saw them as the pure good guys that could do no wrong. they are in a sort of grey area where they try and do good but it's not always that simple which can lead to them doing things that aren't exactly good.

Using music from Talisman: The Horus Heresy in the intro kiiiiind of sets the tone

That patreon commercial though....ohhhh myyyyy lol

Well I mean they allowed Burnham to get away with starting the Klingon war, so yes.

Sometimes it is a matter of perspective. Except what Sisko did to the Maquis. No real way to justify it.

I think the situation you come into in _Star Trek Online_ answers the question the best: Starfleet is a little fish trying to be a big fish in an ocean full of sharks and dolphins. Even as far back as _Enterprise_ it was a military force overreaching its ability to perform, trying to face opposition it had no hope of overcoming on its own, with laughably inferior technology. Its technology may have caught up, in some ways, to most of the forces Starfleet encounters routinely, like the Tal Shiar and the Dominion, but against more extraordinary opposition like the Borg, Hurq, or Undine? The Iconians? The Sphere Builders? Just be thankful the Founders can be allies. Starfleet isn't a villain, but they are also forced, many times, to adapt to situations where they have no control, and they try to exert control. Or they face an enemy they can't beat while remaining principled. Sometimes you need a Sisko instead of a Picard. Both need crew that are willing to follow them. I daresay I would follow either of them, but I would _never_ follow most of the _Disco_ captains. The Starfleet from that series, if season 1 is anything to judge by, is always doing things however they can, including using people from the Mirror Universe.

The Federation, like all governments, excel in propaganda that makes themselves always look like "The good guys." It's only natural. Spock even said in "Balance of Terror" that Earth's early interstellar colonization period was one of extreme brutality. I have even always really kind of thought as the "Mirror Universe" version of Star Trek as maybe really being the "real" version of Star Trek and it's future. The sappy "humanity has all improved and is all nice now" version (which don't misunderstand me l DO love also) as really being Starfleets "propaganda version" of itself.