Thumbnail guy needs a raise

Video description is iconic lol

This might never be read but i just feel i gotta say, this is why your fans are here. The way you two and all you’re guests are so polite while disagreeing, this us so human, so relatable it might as well be the discussions me and my friends have had. Thank you for trying to show the word what it truly means to agree to disagree

I totally agree w/ Casen about the grayness of the series just dissolving and never solidifying into anything meaningful. The message of the show might be that the idea's of the antagonist aren't bad but the actions they take are, but then in never actually goes back and addresses the ideals that the brought up to start with. Those ideals just dissolve and we move on to the next story.

The root of all the problems with The Legend of Korra is that it was never meant to be more than a 12 episode miniseries. The end of the first season was definitive with no real loose ends -- Korra got all her bending powers back, she and Mako got together, and the bad guy met a tragic end. There wasn't anywhere else to go. ...and then it kept going. I give the writing staff all the credit in the world for making seasons 2-4 feel as organic as they did, but it was really unsatisfying for me when they spent the beginning of season 2 explicitly undoing the emotional payoff of season 1 with Korra and Mako. I wouldn't have disliked it as much had it been a part of the plan from the get-go and been foreshadowed in season 1 so it felt like a logical progression of their relationship. The other thing that popped to mind for me was that The Legend of Korra told a very different story from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Aang's story was much more mythological in scale (plucky underdogs, big bad empire) while Korra's was much more rooted in how people live with each other and the conflicts that arise in the different ways to do that. The former is simpler in concept, the latter more complex. I give the creative team props for tackling something more messy and complicated and (for me) more interesting than what they had done before, but I also understand the people who just wanted more Avatar: The Last Airbender and didn't get it.

so good to see these kinds of conversations and debates, no frills, no sensationalism, just pure good deep conversation. I hope you never change cause this channel is such a treasured gem.

Some thoughts: - My recollection is that the show doesn't go so far as to say that Wan was wrong to separate the human and spirit realms, more that, whether it was right or wrong at the time, in the modern context reversing it seems to be the correct decision. - My interpretation of the emergence of new air benders in Season 3 is that it's a side-effect of the Harmonic Convergence: the once every myriad years mystical reset button where the balance of the world for the next myriad years is set. It's not linked to the spirit portals being unsealed, except in the timing lining up. - At the end of season 3, as part of the plan to destroy the Avatar permanently, Korra was poisoned by having mercury infused into her body (in order to force her into the Avatar state). That's what crippled her powers and left her traumatised in early season 4. And the poison lingered in her system, with physical and psychological healing having to occur together in order for her to recover. - For my money, the biggest problem with Legend of Korra is that it's not a single story. Both season 1 and season 2 wrap up their stories, but neither season 2 nor season 3 addresses the lingering loose ends. Amon is exposed as a fraud, defusing the Equalist movement, and a bandaid is slapped on some of the issues that fed the movement in the first place, but by season 2 there's no remnant of the inequality nor any sign of measures that resolved it - appointing a non-bender president has magically fixed everything. After season 2, the two Water Kingdoms no longer have any problems with each other, and the dark spirits are no longer an issue either. The show is more like three stories in a trenchcoat than single coherent show. - McGonagall banishing the Slytherins to the dungeon strikes me as a flaw in the character, and possibly also in the author. - The single biggest difference between AtLA and tLoK is that Aang's story is all about dealing with a clear evil - Aang has to come to terms with his responsibility for stopping Ozai, and then find a way to do it - the question is never "What should Aang be doing?" but "How can he do it?". Meanwhile, Korra's story is all about that former question "What should Korra be doing?" What is the role of the Avatar in a world that doesn't have a simple, clear-cut, evil to oppose, where the pace of technological and social change has massively increased and the most pressing problems are ones of social injustice and of outdated systems not keeping up with the changing needs of new contexts? There are systems of law and justice, based on rules rather than on individual judgement, and the Avatar is a relic of the past that needs to be updated in turn. From the start, Korra is facing problems where both sides are wrong - both Amon and Tarrlok, leaders of the Equalists and the Republic City government respectively, were villains - and she can't just punch or bend her way to victory. Though the show's message isn't just "things are complicated" - I agree with Mike that it consistently portrays extremism and fanaticism as wrong - the Avatar is a force for balance, and the common flaw of the villains is to focus on the good they seek to achieve, and ignore the cost they (and others) are paying in the process. - I have to disagree with Casen about conviction being more common historically. It's easy to pick out moments of decision - moments when conviction was expressed in action - but those stand out because they are moments in longer periods of relative inaction. The US demonstrated conviction in 1776, but if you asked someone in 1770 about the conviction of the colonies, you'd get a very different opinion. Or there's World War 1, where it took the US several years to pick a side and join in. - I believe that, even with a society structured to try to foster the development of independent convictions, most people will still end up looking for someone else's answers to copy rather than coming up with their own. Actually thinking things out and reaching your own conclusions takes a not-insignificant amount of work, while finding someone who seems confident that they have the right answers, and who is right about what the problems are, and just accepting their proposed solutions is a lot easier.

A long time ago, Mike and Casen lived together in harmony. Then everything changed when the Legend of Korra debate video attacked

I…enjoyed the first season back in the day. The subsequent seasons were not as strong, in my opinion. I lean more toward Casen’s side of the argument here. Also, a final note. This felt less like a debate and more like a discussion. It was enjoyable to see. If only more debates were like this...

I’ve felt for a while now that the relationship between ATLA and LOK is similar to chrono trigger and chrono cross. The original is this incredible work that is universally praised and loved while the sequel is divisive. I feel that chrono cross has great ideas and moments in the game but does have some questions moments. Similar thoughts for Korra.

I'm consistently impressed by how seriously and personally Mike takes internet comments and debates. He goes into long monologues frequently about things he's read from random people online and speaks passionately about his perspectives. This is a futile task and I hope for his own peace of mind and mental health that one day he realizes it's not worth investing too much emotion or energy into. No matter what your opinion or take, there are going to be swaths of raging people with foam in their mouths to greet you.

I haven't finished the podcast but my problem with the Airbenders coming back in the way it did in Korra is that to me it took away from the impact of how the Airbenders almost went extinct in ATLA. It was a genocide of a nation and the scars of such an event should imo take a "naturally" long time for such wounds to heal and serve as a reminder that history should not be forgotten so quickly, to learn and never repeat.

Watched Korra first after hearing about how great Avatar was but being reluctant to try it for being a kids' show. Foun Korra as the ore 'adult' sequel and started there. Loved it, then went back and loved Avatar even more. Can see the issues with Korra, but I will always love it as my introduction to this world.

I comdemn both of you! I hate people express opinions on things... which is why I spend my time listening to KZfaq commentaries.

Korra had some interesting antagonists, but my main issue with he show is that Team Avatar itself was pretty lame. Mako and Asami had no character arc whatsoever and might as well not have even been there. Korra's character development kept resetting each season until she finally grows in season 4, It was like 3 seasons of Aang's restless episode, it became so taxing. Bolin was the only one with character development throughout. The side protagonists were more engaging than Team Avatar was.

I think Casen was looking for a way to say "If the moral of the story is that there are no moral absolutes, does that count as a moral of the story?"

I think Korra is a lot messier than Mike is giving it credit for. The extremism of ideas was the most interesting theme to come out of the show but soooo many of the details and characterisation along the way, especially of our protagonists, just felt random and disconnected from those main themes. Korra is not a philosopher yet all of her villains are. She never has anything meaningful to say in response to them. Now, she's only a teenager, so developing her own set of ideals by juxtaposing her against these villains COULD have been a brilliant character journey...but she never really reaches that point. I'm not convinced by the show's end that Korra has grown into a wise and spiritual avatar or a competent leader. I can't really pinpoint what her personal ideals are at all, nor what kind of avatar she will be. The internal demons she's struggling with rarely relate back to the villains' themes, outside of arguably Amon. Korra is the weakest part of her own show.

My problem with Korra was that there were more disagreement between the team, i.e. far too many conflicting opinions, so it's difficult to enjoy the show by simply rooting for the "good guys", and sort of go with the flow mentality. Because of this, I found the episodes hard to digest.

Now this will be a fun one! Also the video description is hilarious.

Here's my proposal regarding the show's attitude towards convictions: its ultimate portrayal of unambiguously positive conviction is the conviction that drives Korra to jump in front of the spirit cannon to save Kuvira and Mako to lightningbend the mech's core. Another earlier example would be Lin standing up to Amon and the Equalists in Book 1 knowing she had no chance of success. In each example the show provides of dangerous convictions, convictions are pursued at the expense of others; in each example the show provides of praiseworthy convictions, convictions are maintained in the face of great personal risk. The takeaway would be something like, "Sacrificing others for your ideals is wrong; sacrificing yourself for your ideals is heroic." (With that said, certain aspects of Book 4 make a lot more sense once one realizes that the Earth Empire is effectively a stand-in for the CCP. Is it really in-character for Kuvira to have internment camps for foreign benders? Hard to say... but there's an obvious Doylist motivation to portray the empire seeking to forcibly reunite an economically successful breakaway province that way!)

Always dreamed of an Avatar discussion from you guys. Thanks a ton!!!

I fell off Korra after S2 wrapped when it came out, So I can't speak to the later seasons. But my main issues w/ it were: 1) Yes they did "touch" on some deeper issues, but that's all they did. Touch on them. They didn't have anything to say about them, they didn't explore them any. All they did was present the issue, say have you ever thought about this before? Yeah, well. Now were done. Everything is wrapped in a nice bow and move on. Very similar to how ATLA ending w/o really addressing the issue of killing the Firelord. They didn't make Aang have to make a choice one way or the other, the just presented a Deus ex Machina and brushed it under the rug and moved on. In S1 of Korra you got the really compelling conflict about how non-benders are being suppressed and a group rising up to fight back. That sound's really interesting. But never really see any of that oppression or how it affects any of the character or even just normal people. The leader turns out to be a bender w/ a questionable ulterior motive any way, so the conflict as presented doesn't really matter anyway. In the end both villains conveniently obliterate themselves so we don't have to deal w/ anything there, and everyone just goes back to normal. Presumably all the normal people still being just as suppressed as before but now its ok, because we stopped Aman, and that is what mattered. 2) Korra is a despicable person. I understand what they were trying to do with her, but they failed. She isn't just flawed, she an idiot. She is supposed to be stubborn and hot-headed but they played it totally wrong. She incredibly egotistical, everything is about what she wants to do, even if she is trying to help others, its gotta be her way. She never listens to advice, even when she is humbled and supposedly learns a lesson, it gets forgotten next episode or season and she back to the way she was before. And she makes some of the worst choices I have ever seen in any main character. The end of S2 is just. OMG it killed the series for me. Like we got a whole backstory w/ Wan explaining how spirits hate people and do really f***ed up stuff to them just for fun and Korra is like. Yeah, we should just release them all over the world without any warning. That is definitely a good idea. Like she just released Koh on some unsuspecting village who all just got their faces ripped. She literally is responsible for the deaths or permanent maiming of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people. This was the straw that killed the show for me, and while I hear S3 and S4 were better, Korra was irredeemable for me at this point. Speaking of Spirits... 3) The details and lore integration of the spirit realm in ATLA has always been murky at best. What with some spirits representing and being literally the actual some natural aspect world and others just being w/e things existing just because. Sometimes they have superpower or not. The worlds are separate kinda but you cross between maybe. People go there when they die, possibly. It's fuzzy to say the least, but it was ok because it wasn't really that integral to the main story of the show. But Korra just made it so much worse. The retconned the origins of bending. Spirit's are now supposed to hard walled behind the veil between worlds, so that throws into questions how they could move between each side in the first show. And they also still just show up in the real world in this show. They are even less tied to the natural world now as most just seem to exist like humans do, only the look different and also way more cruel and murderous. But we are supposed to be trying to get along with them even more now for some reason. It's just all over the place, makes no sense and makes the first series worse in retrospect if you apply this lore to it's analysis. 4) and finally, I really hate how they took all the unique and special powers from the first show that were supposedly only available to absolute masters of bending or MA and just gave them to every joe shmo on the planet. Lightning bending, pff elementary for every Firebender now. Bloodbending, apparently Korra just blabbed the secret to the most evil guy she could find. Metalbending, we got a whole military force able to do what only one person in history could do. You can learn chi-blocking in a weekend course at the local dojo. etc etc. It's power creep in the worst way and just makes everything feel mundane and pedestrian.

My take has always been that The Last Airbender is a show about a person whose struggle is to embrace his role as the Avatar. The Legend of Korra is a show about the Avatar whose struggle is to embrace herself as a person. In that regard, I think it succeeds beautifully. TLA is an impeccably crafted masterpiece. TLoK is flawed, messy, and uneven, but I like it more personally for its emotional resonance with my own life journey. With that being said, I can't wait to watch this!

i’m arriving to this party a little bit late. But you guys are killing it. I am Moore with Mike. In the fact that I absolutely love Cora. And I think you guys are right on point talking about Cora is about the radicalization of certain ideas. But there is always nuance to all these different type of situations. I think Cora is a lot like how BioShock is presented, in the fact of you had these really radical apologies that kind of fold on them and don’t leave room for Nuance or because there’s nuance they fail. There’s another video I watched about Cora that I will try to find and link to you guys.and I think because of this content, I can’t miss anymore of you guys other content so consider me a patriot subscriber today. Sorry I’m watching this while driving and the voice dictation messes things up. I’m sure you guys will get the gist.

I relate to Mike so much when he's talking about having a personality in which he tries to not make assumptions and prefers to give them the benefit of the doubt until *all* the evidence is presented (which rarely happens). I feel like I keep being the neutral party or try to find the middle ground and that can be annoying to people.

I have never seen, The Legend of Korra, but during 48:37 in the conversation, Casen began to touch on something that resonated with me. When watching, Mobile Suit Gundam: The Witch From Mercury, the characters are presented a certain way that makes it easy to form an opinion about them. But in the 2nd season, all the same character's motivations and decisions push them in directions that work against how they were presented in the 1st season. While I can appreciate trying to make more complexed characters, I found that in this instance it made me feel bad about liking certain characters. In the 1st season, there was one character I really liked and one I really disliked. The character I liked, I did so immediately from the very first episode, and I felt good about liking them. The character I disliked was introduced soon after, and I felt good about disliking them. In the 2nd season, the position these two characters take is subverted. All of a sudden, I found myself feeling bad about liking the character I liked, and bad about beginning to like the character I disliked. By the end of it, I just found myself kind of conflicted and not really comfortable in admitting to liking anything. I no longer felt good about how I felt about the characters, and I found myself emotionally distant watching the rest of the show. This is how I imagine Star Wars fans feel about Luke Skywalker tossing his lightsaber over his shoulder and off a cliff. Even though that may add a new layer to Luke's personalty, making him no longer just a typical hero from a hero's journey. That character action affects how comfortable fans are about having emotional stock in that character anymore.

I'm excited to hear what you all have to say about this.

Season 3 of Korra was my favorite of the series. Zaheer was such a compelling villain and just an absolute menace to everyone. I even have the Guru Laghima quote from when Zaheer flies tattooed on my arm

I'll add my takes on the korra show. Positives: 10/10 animation, sound design, score, voice acting. And I can't knock the show for being ambitious as I'd rather an ambitious show fail spectacrluay than be safe and mediocre. Negatives: Cast development and interactions is always paramount especially when you're making a sequel to ATLA and targeted at that age audience. The korra cast was just not compelling and felt like after season 1 was only together because the plot would keep bringing them together. By the end of season 4 each season 1 cast member had its own 5 member supporting cast. Even though the world went through massive change from season 1 to 4, the cast didn't. They all only moved about one degree from the pilot. The demystification of the avatar world: The avatar origin set of episodes to me represent the shows midoclorians moment sadly. The avatar is meant represent balance, but we are now told that avatar is created merging with the spirit of good(not balance, specifically good). I'm sure you understand that there is a difference between good/order and balance. There are many more issues I have with the show, but I don't wanna drag on. Keep up the good work guys

Great conversation and listening to one another

I actually would love to see you guys do the usual bookclub approach with this series by looking at it closely.

Really love this video. Avatar came out when I was 11 and Legend of Korra started coming out during my first year of college and I watched both as they aired. Legend of Korra is a great show, although it does have its weaknesses. I think the biggest issue with Legend of Korra is that the creator’ really don’t understand a lot of the political ideologies they’re giving to the villains and therefore a lot of it is really messy, specifically the resolution to season 1 with the Equalists, is never adequately resolved and we don’t really learn how until season 4, and they also don’t understand Anarchy at all, despite loving Zaheer, he’s the best villain the franchise has ever done, they really act in a way that isn’t consistent with actual Anarchist values. Is was really fun to hear your thoughts on each seasons. My thoughts are that season 1 is great, my only real issue is some of the romantic subplots not being that great, season 2 was OK, but the weakest season, I felt like certain characters like Korra and Bolin had their arcs reset and everyone except for Mako turns into a complete moron in the first half of the show, and the final battle between Korra and Unaloq wasn’t adequately explained. Season 3 is fantastic and the best season of the show, but my favorite season is season 4. Also if you’re wondering what the fan consensus is that season 1 was good but had a lot of issues and fell flat cause of the deus ex machina ending, season 2 is considered pretty bad and widely disliked with only really the Avatar Wan story being well-liked, season 3 is widely considered to best season of the show and the only season to come close to being as good as the original season, and Season 4 is generally thought to be pretty good as well, but fans don’t really like the giant mech at the end.

I'm commenting before watching to say I look forward to hearing your discussion. When I first watched Korra I thought it was pretty good. I enjoyed it without getting very invested like I did with ATLA. Over time my opinion on it has soured a bit largely in response to hearing criticism from others but I still wouldn't say I dislike it. I wonder if you two will shift my perspective on it again or convince me to give it a rewatch

also interesting thought on convictions and decision making about good bad etc... Ang tends to actively avoid making strong decisions which is part of his growth over time combating that. Korra is actually rash and impulsive in her constant convictions and judgments on others, which again is her growth as a character

I couldn't get past the first season. I just didn't like the character. She seemed bratty in a way that felt like a step backwards, considering the character in Avatar were younger and yet still more mature. I'm sure she changed over time but they didn't make me like her enough to want to see it.

No hate just love for the both of you. These discussions are wonderful. I've not watched either of the airbender shows, but enjoyed the talk nonetheless!

I don't know anything about Avatar and Korra, but I do want to touch on the Breaking Bad vs Better Call Saul debate: for me, BCS was as good as, if not better, up until the end of season 3. I don't think the show really knew what to do with itself after that point. Chuck was the lifeblood of the conflict in that story. When Lalo was introduced, sure he was fun.... but it felt like Breaking Bad 2.0, not Better Call Saul.

Whoo Legend of Korra discussion. I heard some talk about Breaking Bad & Better Call Saul I would love to see a video on that too.

Something that really solidifies Zaheer as a fantastic villain for me, is when he takes out the Earth Queen. The Red Lotus challenges Korra's notion of black and white good and evil and her go to belief that "The Avatar stops the bad guys". We're shown that the Earth Queen is an objectively bad leader who does not have the best interests of her peoole in mind. However, Korra isn't in a position where she can do anything to help this nation. Zaheer recognizes this failure and takes action that, while immoral, can pretty much only be considered a positive change for the kingdom. This puts Korra in a position where she has to punish someone who does care about the best interests of the people and is bringing positive change in the world, which goes against her ideals of what the Avatar should be.

I've always been more of Casen-ite🥳🥳🥳. And now I'm validated in this debate. Jk appreciate you both💯

LoK is a show with many excellent general ideas that are just never executed properly. The lack of character cohesion and flow from season to season in tandem with this just make the show a mess. As Mike points out there are amazing moments sprinkled throughout, but nothing comes together to make LoK greater than the sum of its parts.

I’m so effing torn. You all get what has been a deeper meaning to the games I’ve already loved for being deep. Now I might have to admit that there’s probably less than 10% of us who actually get the themes. And then probably 1% of us who can talk about them and be friends….

Good shit, boys. I'm personally on Mike's side of this argument; almost to a T when it comes to what he enjoyed about Korra & when it comes to the solidity of one's convictions. More often than not, people are too rigid and end up getting themselves and others into problems that could've been avoided. Also, that last bit about losing convictions as a result of having an open mind & feeling like it's a curse really resonates, but I've also found myself feeling like it's more likely that just about all of us *are* capable of deep thinking & that it often comes down to how you put a thing to a person that gets them to open their minds...

Just started the video, but I just wanna say I'd love to see you guys talk about Avatar (maybe on Patreon down the line?). I was 10 years old when it came out, but I never really gave it a chance until a few months ago. Watched the whole series over Spring break and I absolutely loved it.

ATLA is a very simple story, told with beautiful detail, with iconic and interesting characters. Korra is a messy story about the realistic struggles of becoming an adult and forging your own path in the world. As an experience, ATLA is a better package to more people... but the world is better off for having both kinds of stories. They both speak to the human experience and are good art. I for one am glad that both exist.

Every Person has 1 book to write. They have the essence of the human condition in need of 10 years of work to put to words. And when they have learned to destill the essence into words, they have forgotten how to harvest it. Those who can do both are rare. "Learning how to put it to words will cost you a year flower and it will not be a cheap one." Master Horaz to Momo, Micheal Ende: Momo (poorly paraphrased from memory) Korra's production was troubled, while ATLA pretty much got to execute the creators vision and it shows in season 2 and 4. Woman(July) being in an abusive relationship with a man is the highligh of Korra season 2. I will file that under "it was live". "Bolin falling for Fashismn emphatises the complexity of the situation". Nah, Bolin doing stupid stuff to drive the plot, is well established at this point. The Sytherin "house" is in the dungeons, so MC Gonnagal sending them there, is more of a timeout than a capital punishment. Their surprise appearance and pledge to the good side turns the tides of the final battle. There is so much more going on there, than just a poor joke. How do you know which convictions are the right ones? How do you make the right assuptions? "People don't have strong convictions anymore and don't do anythign about it" Meanwhile the trans culture war, Black Lives Matter and the pro Palestine student protests. There are things were strong convictions lead to good outcomes and then there are others weres strong convictions will lead to bad outcomes. There is no simple to solution, even to the issue if there is a simple solution. Preaching as the sole point of art seems silly to me. Sometimes the warning of "hey in this situation tone down the assumptions and take your time before acting" is valuable as art and there is no way of convaying that kind of nuance in what I understand as preaching. Excluding anything from being art is the best way to get artists to prove you wrong.

Is Legend of Korra bad? No, but also yes

great conversation, I agree with that the characters at some point split from each other, the first show felt like they where a family this one not so much, but i do like both series in general korra is pretty good.

I was not ready for this

I am currently rewatching avatar series and you put this out 😅

‘I loved the whole thing’ Not even the Creators liked or new what they were doing with Season 2.

The section of the show dedicated to showing the origins of the Avatar was probably my most disliked aspect of Korra. It took something that was mysterious and otherworldly with the Avatar and nicely and neatly in a little red bow explained every detail about the origins of it. Some things really are better left to the imagination. Other things I didn't like were: - The change in portrayal of the spirit world from this almost ethereal creepy place to a saturated colorful worderland. - The shift from an asian fantasy inspired world to an asian fantasy world injected with some freedom and Murrica with Republic City. - The constant interpersonal drama with the group was just exhausting. - Everything about Raava and Vaatu, just all of it. - Korra kaiju fight... Come on now. Most of my grievances are from season 2, the last 2 seasons were almost certainly better but already tainted by what had come before it for me. Season 1 I genuinely enjoyed (Republic City aside) and I put that down to the fact that season 1 was originally written as a one off story.

Although the characters in Korra frustrated me at times, the conflicts usually felt realistic to me. I didn't like the show as much as Avatar, but I still enjoyed it overall. Anyway, thanks guys! Really enjoyed this conversation.

Going to need to snip out the expectations argument for the Xenosaga 2 play through

jimmy mcgill is an incomparably more complex and compelling character psychology compared to walter white. i like walter -- he's very entertaining -- but he can be summed up in one sentence. jimmy kind of requires a thesis to explain. the saul series is also vastly more elegantly written in every aspect from plot to character, to the point where going back to breaking bad afterwards reveals how clunky much of it really can be. the initial 'drug' plot in the first show offers a more visceral and immediate kind of engagement for a broad viewer base, and that's certainly a merit, but more of an aesthetic than a foundational strength. the successor series from my understanding is more of peter gould's show, while the first was vince gilligan's, so while the same people were involved in both, i believe the leadership was different

I love how this podcast gets into all these nerdy things but also hits on some deep stuff. They started talking about Korra and ended up talking about how mega-divided society is but no one does anything.

I feel like I have strong convictions of having no convictions… also I feel that I can just copy and paste your conversation into just about any argument ever 😂 great episode, and I never watched a single Avatar episode

You guys should really do a series on Assassin’s Creed 3. Also a fun fact, on the founding of the United States 12 of the 13 colonies that founded, either initially or changed their laws to prohibit slavery before officially joining.

I've never watched Korra, but this conversation has made me want to give it a try.

Loved your discussion on Korra alas gone are the days of the forums where you could actually discuss things. I enjoyed it far more on re-watches. And I find so much joy in that even for all it's difficulties I can't really explain why, it certainly hits better for the pros that were discussed about it, I never wanted to watch any of these cartoons rea;;u but my daughter forced me too after years oi nagging and telling her that the live action movie was a ok. Emotionally most people aren't very smart particularly in traffic. I remember reading the family history and realising that one of my first recorded Scottish ancestors fought in the battle of Falkirk with William Wallace only we were on Longshanks side. But I'm sure they all had convictions.

us Korra fans suffering out here since 2012 😭

and another thing that I just thought of as far as convictions go. I don’t think the show wants us to not have convictions or stand firm on things. But I believe it’s more so to do something similar to what you’re doing now in this podcast. You’re taking an idea and you’re holding it up to your convictions and we are critically thinking about how those things measure up to the whole of different world views. I’m kind of butchering this but the main point that I want to get is that we take all these different forms of truth and that we are critically thinking about them and assessing themin a way that is due to them so that we can properly apply them to life

Hi I don't know if there's anything you can do or if KZfaq is simply being bad for me specifically but I've not been getting notifications for this channel for about 3 months, even with the sub bell on and even having uploads sent to my email. Hopefully it's just me and God forbide KZfaq hasn't shadow banned you.

It's not really "fair" I guess when one person just watched the show and for the other its been 10 years. I would'nt want to watch Korra again tough so I guess this is the way it has to be.

and one last thing. The ending of the show is weak, I think because they didn’t have enough time to cook or, and I think people might get on me for this one, an agenda was trying to be pushed from the studio that was contrary to the direction the show was going and so, a lot of the ending feels not fully developed and Thus feels underbaked.

They shouldn’t have tried to follow it up. They should have done the continuation and followed the comics storyline. It should have been Avatar adventures of adult Aang and adult team avatar.

I'm having my girlfriend watch this for the first time so this timing is great. Didn't care for Season 2, Korra seemed weirdly abrasive to the point where I welcomed whenever she got humbled later. Season 3 was my favorite and season 4 was honestly forgettable (It'll definitely be like watching it for the first time when we get to it). Kind of a sudden romance that happened in the end too

No way this has officially made my next 2 weeks😂

I personally don't hate Korra, the show, nor do I love it. I recognize and enjoy the effort to dive more into political ideals and raising questions along the way to test Korra as an Avatar. I do wish the show could have a better uniformity in its story and theme which is something that couldn't really be help because of its situation. The relationship between the cast didn't really contribute to the theme and message they're working toward. And like Casen, I do feel a bit let down that the characters were kinda promised to go one way, but didn't get delivered on that promise or not resolved as satisfyingly. And I'm not saying that makes me hate LoK. I'm just saying that is the weak point that made the show not as great in my opinion.

Nice vid

I think something about the production problems caused by Nickelodeon's half-hearted interest in TLOK actually made for an interesting show that lacked a status quo. The real status quo was character conflict, which either alienates/discomforts or draws an audience in. This is totally tangential, although I feel it has some bearing on what I said above. I remember watching something where the Insomniac, devs of ratchet and clank, learned that the two main characters shouldn't have conflict, and that it made the first game rough. I disagree personally, I think the characterisation of the two were stronger in the first than any other, primarily due to the conflict.

Awesome

Yes.

Mike appreciating Korra demonstrates how much of a man of culture he is. I am so excited to continue watching this

Casen is based. Also got a fresh button up today

The wind villain was cool.

If I close my eyes in the beginning, it’s as if Cassin is a psychiatrist and Mike is the calm yet crazy person on the armchair. Oddly enough, I’m that perceived crazy person in the armchair as well, maybe more so because I did like it from the beginning before any preconceptions. That being said, loved season 1, Hated season 2 but realized it was the characters in the way of the story😲. 3rd in my opinion had the best villain w/a thought provoking ideology. I feel more so with Avatar had a stronger micro story with it’s characters While Korra had a stronger macro story with its ideology and politics.

I actually really liked both sides of the argument. I really didn't like LoK, but I do think that you make a decent point, Mike, about some of the messaging behind the show, I will agree that the villains were interesting. It's kind of been awhile since I've watched the show too, but I distinctly remember that most of the characters were not well developed and didn't have any real arc in their journey, either together or apart (in my memory anyway). I think the main reason many people don't like LoK is because of the characters since that's who we're following and would relate to or at least should understand first. But most of the characters, at least the main four are just not very interesting, at least to me. I also remember hating how Korra just kind of loses all of her fights lol. Not that she needs to win all the time, but I was hoping that she would learn from these losses and grow as a person that would then help her in her next fights or help her to do something different. But she doesn't really learn or grow from the mistakes or rash decisions she makes, nor from her losses. (She also doesn't beat the first villain, he ends up exposing himself) After struggling with Tenzen's teaching I believe she blames only Tenzen but doesn't look inward or any self reflection, and she just magically unlocks air bending but doesn't need to practice with it even though it's her weakest? And it's also really weird that she dates her whole group...the show could have done without the romance. I say that as someone who is not a huge fan of the romance in ATLA either lol. I think overall that the writing is weaker because the characters were lacking. What was Korra's conviction and world belief? Does she tackle the opposite of that? Or maybe need to learn from what she was taught? What should she have learned throughout her journey? Or maybe, what did she NOT want to learn? I think Korra could have been more interesting as a villain Avatar given how a lot of her actions caused so many bad things to happen lol. But it could have been interesting to see her not wanting to learn from her elders and hating her losses and maybe descending into a more villain or anit-hero route so she can start “winning” in her mind. Or something, idk lol. Also, if interested Mike, in hearing a critique of LoK, I thought this video (The Problem with Spirits in Legend of Korra) made an interesting point about how LoK didn't fully grasp the connection of the spirits to the conditions of the world and actually dumbed down their meaning and representation. Here's the link if interested: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/a7aCiqWem66omok.html

I never thought of Korra as being a bad show. Quite the contrary, compared to most things on TV, especially for the network it was airing on, it was actually great. Its problem is that it was sitting in the shadow of something that was, generally agreed to be, much better than it. Beyond that, it did have its own problems. The general disjointedness of the seasons was a huge structural issue from where I'm standing. The whole "And now for something completely different" between seasons never really gave things a chance to develop organically. I think that's a big part of why season 2 is generally considered to be the worst. It's the most disconnected from its preceeding season, and the preceeding season had the most definitive end. They didn't really have much to go off of, so they *had* to come up with a bunch of completely new things to lean on. The original series never had this problem, because the season climaxes were always underneath the umbrella of the greater plot, so there was always something to go back to, the war in general. It seems to me like Korra was probably intended to be a mini-series and it did well enough that they kept ordering it, unlike ATLA where it's pretty clear that they a handle on where it was going generally from the beginning. Now if Korra was instead an anthology series or something from the start, it would've worked much better to have completely disjointed seasons. Just have a new setting, new characters, etc. and that'd be easy to do in Avatar. Hell, they kinda already dipped their toes in just that with the Wan stuff. I'd like to see them maybe do something with the Kyoshi books some day, because those are generally pretty damn good.

I actually liked Korra, despite it not being as good as Aang's story. I am a sucker for world building and the world was kinda interesting, a tad too USA centric with the Avatar city being New York with asian aesthetics, but still kinda cool. And the characters were pretty cool. The things I didn't like were the whole explanation as to why the Avatar exists and the spirits thing being too obvious, it takes away the mistery, like explaining the Force in Star Wars. Also, the villains were all cool but underutilized and sabotaged by some plot point, like Unalaq, who was a cool villain with a lame ending due to the whole spirit thing going way too far.

OMG YESSSSSSS

It's comforting to know Mike didn't finish Xenoblade Chronicles 2 after years of hearing a guy whose opinion I respect on games dog on one of my favorite RPGs. If you're reading this Mike, please consider giving XBC2 another shot sometime. I know the first quarter to third of the game isn't great. It took me 3 tries to get past its not great opening chapters. I promise you, the latter chunk of the game is so much better. I think it delves into some amazing themes and philosophy on how we react to tragedy and the struggle between finding your own purpose against purpose that is given or thrust upon you. My personal thoughts on Korra are that S1 was just okay and S2 was awful (Aside from the backstory lore episodes), but S3 and S4 are great. My big problem with Season 2 was that it made Korra almost irredeemably stupid for getting suckered into supporting her obviously evil uncle's religious authoritarianism. I don't think it did a good enough job of justifying why she would do something like that aside from selfish reasons on her part and it almost ruined her character for me.

If you hit the rewind button really fast a bunch of times at the start of the video, Mike sounds just like Sans from Undertale.

keep forgetting to say this: y'all seriously consider _not_ bringing up a certain magic school franchise and its creator

Well jokes aside, it was not bad, like bad bad. It was just not that good. The characters were likeable. The world building was decent. It really annoyed me that in the original series lighting bending was the coolest thing ever, and then in season 2, from like episode 1 we see people using lighting bending to repair staff. Another thing that I did not like was how seasons were not connected like the original show. And general speaking I have issues remembering the Legend od Korra, and when you have trouble remembering something, you know it was not that good. I mean it was a decent series. But I would defenitely not watch again, except if im in the company of someone who want to watch it for the first time. In that case I will be like, eh why not.

though I enjoyed LoK, there is some flaws that cuts the excellent premise. The series is about a warrior avatar in time of peace and has to fix human world problems that isn't just fixed by fighting the villain. Which is where the flaws appear, season 1 core issue isn't resolved ie the benders are still privileged class, season 2 Korra doesn't really become more spiritual beside Ultraman fight powers, season 3 could have done better to acknowledge Zaheer is partly right that citizens should be solving their problems not relying on avatar, season 4 fizzle resolution to a dictator conquering - granted this one I give partly a pass cuz the series got cancelled and they continue this resolution in the comics

I think Legend of Korra suffered from a couple of structural problems. First was that unlike the original it was greenlit a season at a time so they never knew whether they were going to get any more and couldn't build it up over the long term like in the original show. Second is that it was firmly into the era of arc-only TV. There are no episodes any more, there is only the season arc. That means that there isn't the progression of ups and downs, minor challenges overcome and smaller peaks on the way to the seasonal resolution. There's just 9-10 episodes of Korra and the gang flailing and failing until they're allowed to win in the last 2-3 episodes. A lot of modern TV does that. It's the plague of modern Star Trek too. It makes the payoff feel rushed compared to the length of the buildup and it doesn't have the rhythm and pace of victory and setback that a more episodic show with a background arc has. The only time I'd call it bad though is season 2. 1 was good until they bottled the point they were making about the unofficial caste system of the city and just made Amon an evil hypocrite bender, 3 was excellent because of Rollins' performance as Zahir, and 4 was back to good without the high point villain (but Bolin actually finally got some respect).

Let's not pretend like LoK is the worst show ever made. It isn't. BUT, its still flawed in a fundamental level. While the writers wanted to make the villains more morally grey than the ones presented in Avatar, ironically, none of them reached the heights of impact that the Fire Lord and Azula did. Also, I found that, in writing characters like Azula and the Fire Lord, who I can very much imagine to be real people, that sense is lessened in LoK. The ONE major criticism I'll give S1 of LoK is the focus on Pro Bending halfway through the story. It had overstayed its welcome and felt too forced into the plot when the stakes had outgrown it. Also, personally, I'm not the biggest fan of how they treated bloodbending, but that's more of a me thing than an actual flaw in the show. Same thing with the weak love triangle story, which took up a bulk of the season. Another thing its convenient ending, but that was more of an issue when the show was renewed for more seasons out of nowhere, which the writers had not planned on. As for S2, I found very little to like (writing wise). The villain is so forgettable and cliche and so obviously in the wrong that he might as well be twirling his mustache and laughing manically. So I find it odd how Mike mentioned the show doesn't condemn any of its villains (48:05). Second, the animation of the first and second half are inconsistent, which is ironic considering the story is too, since the first half is completely overshadowed by the second half's conflict. Even the Avatar Wan episodes, as beautiful as they look and as likeable as Wan ended up being, contradict the lore of the original show in such a way that it makes a lot of characteristics and set up from Last Airbender show irrelevant or hollow. The backstory they gave to bending is less creatives than the legends we were taught in Last Airbender. Not to mention they completely characterized Aang out of character (if that makes sense) with the conversation his children had about him. And, honestly, the character writing in S2 felt so splintered that it failed to connect by the end. Bolin's arc had little to do with the central conflict, and Mako and Asami attributed one thing in the midst of their "romance". And Korra achieving a state of power that was introduced in the original show so easily (like in season 1) that it just begged the question of why it was so special to begin with. Like many fans, I too loved S3. In large part because of the villains. But the more I think about it, the less the pieces that make up S3 weld together. We see so little of The Red Lotus (sort of like an anti-Team Avatar) dynamic, that Zaheer's power up feels downright unbelievable. ESPECIALLY considering the real world parallels of his philosophy and spiritual beliefs, the less sense it all makes. Additional lore contradictions. And it also makes Aang's struggles not as impactful since the Last Airbender title, a dilemma itself, was resolved with little effort and input from the characters. Where to start with S4? The out of nowhere coupling of Korra. Mako being borderline useless by this point. The tonal inconsistency of the final threat. Korra's character development coming in too little too late into the series. You get the gist.

I loved every second of Korra. After my 5th watch through I went and got a tattoo of her.

The anti-avatar should've been the last "boss" of the show. Missed oportunity.

oh boy here we go haha

I absolutely loved it. Season 2 is my favorite. It was awesome, meaningful, and impactful.

The more i watch, the more i remember why i disliked Korra back then. The meandering romantic plots, the waves of characters being introduced that are impossible to care about when the leads (Korra, Asami, Mako, Bolin) are getting almost none or unsatisfying development, the complete demystification of bending, THe "son of a son of a daughter of a cousin, everyone is related" trope, and finally, Korra's just abrasive, self-centered and impossible to deal with personality. Just the type of person who you would never want to befriend in real life under any circumstances. Season 1 was when these issues were less apparent, but they really just dug deeper and deeper into the show the more they wrote. If Korra spent less time on all the stuff i mentioned above, and more on her learning from the "Right ideals, wrong methods" of her villains, it would be a stronger show. And maybe it does do that, but io really don't remember it that way. ultimately i don't what "The Legend" of Korra is, because the story we were told is not one "of legend". Quite the opposite.

A little off topic but like, dislike, or even hate Legend of Korra, i just hate seeing the disdain this series gets while a far more poorly written nostalgia bait series like Dragon Ball Super was milked into infinity and likely still will be even after Toriyama's passing

I have always loved Korra and I have always thought of if it like this: The Last Airbender is the better show, no doubt about it, but Korra has a lot of factors/topics/themes that I just fond much more relatable (this is just a very personal opinion). If people don't wanna talk about it and just want to force their opinions forward, then I i just don't argue with them about it. Excited to see what you guys have to say about it

I like and respect you, Mike, but I can't agree with you on this one.

I know this is a primarily a gaming channel, and most people in the comments so far don't like Korra. However, for this channel there are a lot of interesting ideas to talk about. I would love to see a more detailed breakdown of the themes and philosophy presented in Korra. Just wishful thinking.

Watched Korra for the first time about a month or so ago. Well, I had watched season 1 when it aired and loved it for the most part except for the Amon stuff at the end, and the start of season 2 was kinda weird plus the Avatar Wan stuff so dropped it. But now watching it straight through, I really love it. It has clear flaws throughout, especially in season 2 which has rippling effects in later seasons, but I really enjoyed it.

To me TLK is of those prime examples that just having interesting themes/concepts don't make a good story if they the story it's not properly executed. And overall I do think the show is good, I like it, but I have no desire to rewatch because there are so many things wrong with it. And it's not even the fact it's not ATLA, I accepted that after season 1, it's a different show. Fine. But the whole thing feels like a disjointed mess, with interesting pieces of characterization, themes, concepts, villans,etc. Until season 3 and 4, the show lacked cohesion, and sure, it does have more complex ideas and conflicts, but if that comes at cost of butcheing character arcs, undermining stakes that trade off is not worth it. Season 1 is the best self-contained one, but it still has problems and the whole conflict idea ends up falling apart. Season 2 is a legit mess, it has fun additons like Varick, I like Wan's story, but the everything else is just.. yeah. Season 3 and 4 work better as a story, the defeat of Zaheer has actual interesting consequences to the world, and to Korra's character, and rise of Kuvira makes perfect sense. And they really tried to make Mako and Bolin more interesting, but quite frankly it was to late for me. But even then season 4 was very underwhelming, specially the ending. I can certanly commend Bryke and the team for wanting to make something more mature, but in that case they should've also commited to some of those more ambituous story bits. There are elements of LOK I think are more intereting than it's predecessor? Absolutely. But do they make for a more interesting narrative ? 9 times out of 10.. not really, more complex dillemas and villans don't make a more compelling story if they don't flow organically into a cohesive narrative. I agree with Casen, I Korra as show dillutes the complex dillemas it proposes, not as in coward way, but it moves no the next big thing instead of fleshing out those ideas, and a result comes across as really shallow and underveloped.

I loved Korra. The way it was more of a character study and built on the lore was awesome.