I'm not an expert on those boxes by any means, but I happen to be in the engineering department of the plant that still makes these boxes today, albeit a low volume of them for service. The original plant that we built these at is decommissioned but my plant received all of the equipment and machines. We are the OEM of these boxes and we are still in Saginaw. Basically, steering assist effort is set by system pressure and piston diameter. If you don't increase the piston diameter, or tear the pump apart and find the pressure relief valve and change the setting higher, you won't get more assist. The differences in the port sizes in your Jeep and S10 was a customer product requirement for the gear, the S10 got a 2.6mm hole and the jeeps got a 1.9mm hole, this was to generate the feel of the steering that the OEM customer wanted for that particular vehicle. These boxes went into F-body cars as well, but had different valve body and spool shaft combinations for most of the different applications. We have a HUGE number of valves and spool shafts we have to maintain the ability to create for service and for our present day products. The pitman shaft (people seem to call this the sector shaft) is the same blank for many of the 800 gear varieties we used to build, they get their teeth (the fan) shaped differently and the splines may get hobbed with more or less teeth depending on the model it will become, and whether it will be variable ratio or not. Seems to be 32 and 33 are the most common number of teeth, we have a 28 tooth one for the postal vehicles. There are 3 block and 4 block pitman shafts in those old 800 gears to make the variety of models even more confusing, "block" is what we refer to as the areas where a tooth was not cut by the hobbing machines. If you want to up the output of any hydraulic steering gear, you would have to figure out how to increase the system pressure or find one of those 808 boxes that supposedly are 80mm bores. I have never actually seen one, but I went around looking today and we still make parts for the 808 variable ratio gears. Honestly the hobbyists know a lot more than I do about the ratios and what can or can't be upgraded from what to what, I won't pretend to know those details. We have a gear that goes on the Chevy Express vans that is called a 680 gear, it has a different design from the old 800 gears and is an 80mm bore. It uses a form of the pitman that goes into the old 800 gears, but the cover and lash bolt setups are completely different. There is also the big 84mm bore gear we make that goes into the modern 2500HD GM trucks, it has yet another bolt pattern but is our highest output gear (for now).

So basically an S10 box will work if you have one laying around but it's pretty much a stock replacement rather than an upgrade. Interchangeability does not equal performance or durability upgrade. I have found many similar myths during my many years of modifying different makes and models of cars and trucks. Keep bringing this type of content, it's very informative.

Appreciate the time and effort and showing what is and isn’t between these two steering boxes. Thank you

Thanks for the work and research, bud. Good info for those thinking about this swap. Take care.

Great info! I'm planning on doing a hydro assist build for my sas Dakota hopefully soon. I need a new/rebuilt box BBAADD!! 35"s + locked front + Rocks = leaks

Good video. Never torn apart both boxes but always felt like they where pretty much identical. Would be interesting to see a full parts spreadsheet from the manufacturer. As for replacing the steering box it's always been between the durango box or astro van box(forward swing pitman arm if stretching wheelbase)

Very informative. I found this video for the same reasons you made it. I was seeing people talk about S10 boxes being an upgrade and even recommended someone else look into the swap. After watching your video i set them straight, though. Don't worry. lol

Awesome job. Very informative! Would have never guessed they'd be 97% identical.

I’m interested to see what you go with for hydro assist. I just got done rebuilding my YJ box and drilling/tapping it. Great video!

Good stuff! Answered most my questions. I went to a Durango box awhile back and honestly liked my stock box (V8 ZJ) more! I wouldn't mind seeing a part 2 of this vid with the the Durango box lined up with them!

Such an awesome video! Thanks muddy beard, very informational

We need a part 2 with the durango and dakota boxes. Subscribed.

I wish you did a comparison using the PSC box. I'd like to know how much and what is different inside to see if it's possible to build your own HD box. Good job on your break down of the two boxes and showing what's difference.

I know this video is old.. but great info! I have a 72 chevelle and actually changed to a grand Cherokee steering box as it's identical except for a faster steering ratio. Never knew the S10 was an option also

Great video thanks for putting the info out there.

Great video. You cleaned up a lot of myths and hear say. Thank you

I needed a new steering box. So i just went ahead and got the s10 box since i needed one anyway. Honestly i cant tell a difference. Maybe a little when steering. But nothing to hype it up. Ive been running it for 3 years now. Nice to see a video on both boxes being opened up and real info. I myself had a hard time with researching this at the time. Im upgrading to a psc gear box hydro assist kit and will no longer need the s10 box. At least now i know what the differences are between the Cherokee and s10.

Excellent work, thank you for this info.

Great Inffilled video man! Do more comparison videos like this!

Awesome video thank you. I was wondering if you can make a video on the Chrysler 8.25 axle

My factory box on my 98 TJ was wore out. Went and grabbed a Durango box and installed. On the highway the Durango box is WAY more sensitive then the factory box, works well but if your on the highway alot then this might not be the upgrade for you. Going to try the S10 box.

Love the vidoe's, keep them coming. Could you do a Durango tear down comparison to the stock xj steering box.?

Great video!! Great info!

I recently did the S10 cause my stock one went bad. I had the same issue of everyone said to do it but could not find a definitive reason why it’s an upgrade. Then when I got it I really questioned it as it looked identical. Great video!

Thanks Robbie.Knowing this now,I will do the Durango box....

Great video thanks! - we you be showing use how to tap and do a assisted steer system?

I'm just now watching ypur video. So unsure if you speak of this but I heard 02 03 04 WJ box works extremely well when Rollin 33s or bigger.

Interesting info , this is my opinion and what i did on my ZJ , Im using durango box w/ snow pluow or somthing like that but here is the cach Im using WJ pump and a 4.5 pully and it work Excellent Im running 35 size tires and for me it work very good this is like i say my opinion and Experience, you guys be safe and have fun

One of the best things you can do with these steering boxes on an XJ/ZJ is install a steering box brace. These boxes are strong,stronger than the frame of an XJ/ZJ. You'll probably rip the box off the frame or break all the spot welds on the frame before one of these steering boxes break. I used to work at an auto auction,we auctioned off cars that were totaled by insurance companies. I've seen quite a few with frame damage right where the steering box mounts on the frame. Seeing this first hand, that's the first thing I did to my ZJ. Because that would really suck having a major frame/steering problem out on a trail up in the middle of nowhere. After the installation I noticed a positive response in the steering. I also installed this little plastic thing that goes on the tie rods called The Cure. I installed them both at the same time so Idk wich one made the most difference. Anyway..my steering is pretty nice now. If I ever need to replace the steering box,it's good to know I can use the S-10 box. There's way more of them in the wrecking yard than the Cherokee.

I get a faster ratio power steering gear box, the worn gear the roller bearings run on, have less grooves. Also to match, the piston’s center is machined and polished to match the worm shaft. On top of the piston has a wider roller guide. It won’t match the worm gear as during assembly, the holes don’t line up. As for “Road Feel” or “Feed Back” depending who is talking, the input shaft, splined for the rag joint, is changed. It is a torsion bar with splines on both ends. It connects to input shaft to the valve. The center is machined to be narrowed using a spring steel type alloy. The thinner, the less road feel or specs would say 22 pound torsion bar. If machined thicker, you get more road feel or specs may say 34 pound bar. You are two minutes away from comparing the two. ASE Master Tech since 1978 - Retired

Great info, thanks 😊

The hole sizes would be a difference, smaller holes would have higher pressure with less volume. Where the larget holes would have lower pressure more volume. Which would be the common theory of why. Know heres a thing, can you use a fixed ratio XJ part with the s10 part that has the larger holes. To see if theres a difference. Same as using the s10 variable ratio with the xj part with smaller holes. Be interesting to see what happens

That’s the same stuff I found with the S-10 box. I have a Jeep J-20 box in my XJ, it’s a little bit bigger and supposedly better. 🤷‍♂️

Well shoot. I just called my oreileys and the part numbers fot the Durango box and xj box are the same. Price pretty much the same too.

thanks for doing this

Wow. Found another use for the adjustable spanner

Great information,thanks

If you really would like to get some better steering assist, get a WJ v8 power steering pump. It pushes more volume thus helping with steering feel. I'm locked front and rear on 33s and noticed a huge difference after doing the swap. Made a world of difference.

V8 zj box I believe is the same as the s10 box. Xj 14.1 ratio zj 12.1.... most older chevy cars have a similar box to. But they are in the 16.1 ratio. I dont remember exactly

My friend recently called and talked to someone at Cardone about this. There are 3 seperate part numbers they discussed - XJ/older S-10, ~02 2wd S-10 and ~02 4wd S-10. The tech person at Cardone explained to him that the cases are the exact same but the internals are slightly different. Also said that the 4wd S-10 box operates at a high pressure to compensate for the addition of the front 4wd components. I might have to have my own convo with them via email to get specifics in writing.

Another upgrade is s-10's, and s-10's blazer with ZQ8 suspension option.

Awesome. Thanks :)

Peace everyone that sees this...I just bought my first XJ.....got a steal but needs a lot of work....This video is great as I am learning a lot about the Cherokee community (I’m partial to bmw e30 and e34) can anyone kindly point me to some good Jeep sources? I’m thinking forums, other KZfaq pages, and parts companies....for example I hear aloud about rough country and checked them out, are they the go to? Are they even a good company? I’m a complete novice...thanks in advance and PEACE especially in these crazy times.

Maybe s10 steering box swap is supposed to be with a ZQ8 option s10 it has a faster ratio of 12.7.....also a side note the chevy astro uses the same box but the pitman arm swings on the opsite side. and a wagoneer pitman arm will fit all of them.

I'm guessing the PO swapped in a S10 box in and didn't tell you 😂

Cool video.

I'm actually in the process of overhauling my whole drivetrain (steering geometry, axle gearing, 8.8 swap, lockers, etc) and my gearbox and PS pump are both pretty shot so I'll be giving them an overhaul. I've decided on the V8 WJ PS pump for its slightly higher output, and I have decided on running the S10 gearbox. Why? Variable ratio. My options were the factory XJ at 14:1 fixed, ZJ at 12.7:1 fixed, S10 16:1-13:1 variable, and S10 ZQ8 12:1 fixed (sorry, no Durango box for me). As much as a tighter ratio would be nice for handling, it would suck on the highway because of how touchy it is, ZJ and ZQ8 are out. Tight ratios are also terrible for offroad situations because there is less of a "leverage" factor. Factory XJ is okay, but I still find it too touchy on the highway, so that's out. This leaves the S10 variable ratio the best option. 16:1 on the highway and 13:1 when I need to tightly maneuver the Jeep sounds like a perfect mix for my application. Due to the huge variablity in rebuilt boxes, I'm going to have to crack the one I get open to ensure it has the variable gearing. The box might not be a strength upgrade, but it will change to handling to something more desirable. I'd love to hear some feedback on my choice.

Maybe having the slower middle section causes a gear reduction effect??? Just like with axles, the more turns of the pinion (steering wheel) the lower the gear reduction is at the wheel (steering output) so theoretically you get a temporary “gear reduction” in the middle which translates to more turning force on big tires???

Thanks man super interesting now that it's over I can blink

Yeah, not a big enough difference. Good to know if you break down and have an S10 box laying around.

Have you ever used an astro van gearbox on xj for more of a stretch up front

I put a used s10 box in my cherokee just because I broke bolts in my stock one taking it off. Noticed absolutely no difference lol

Another interesting aspect to the steering box swap, is that the S10 guys tend to swap to the Astro Van box.. I can't specify the differences, I just know it is a common swap, especially when doing a SAS on a S10. So what I would want to compare is what the differences are between a early 90's 2wd astro box and the XJ box.... If is is a upgrade for the S10, it should be more of an upgrade for a XJ if in fact it is actually different and not just a wives tale like some of the reasons the s10 box is better

Thank you for clarifying theres so much conflicting info on the forums about this! I have a 98 XJ on 35s (used as daily and occasional rock crawling) and need to replace the steering box because it’s leaking from the box. I’d like to take the opportunity to do an upgrade if I can. I have a buddy who will do the labor if I buy the parts, but I have no idea what parts to buy. Just the box? Some kind of brace? Can anyone please help point me in the right direction? 😭

I have a 1987 GMC S15 rwd and having problems sourcing a manual steering box. What year s10 box is that and where did you get it? part number would help too. Thanks!

I want to know if the S10 box has less slope or dead spot that side to side motion? I put a new Durango box on it helped some but still has some slope. Have not adjusted the screw yet either. You get the same turning Radius with the Durango box as with the factory XJ although the Durango box does turn a weee bit faster and was noticeable on the HIGHWAY in turns not a great amount but i did notice which i liked. My spindle stops still touched when turned lock to lock same as factory!

I have 01 xj on 35s can't seem to figure out why when on the highway steering shifts left and right

None of those differences makes it stronger. I just another example of he said, he said, so it must be true.

Can you take a couple more XJ boxes apart and verify they too have bearings? Someone else mentioned that the previous owner could have swapped a s10 box in, I am now very curious if that is the case or do XJ boxes actually use bearings when everyone thought they used bushings.

guys wich S10 model year and part number are you talking?

I have a 89 wrangler . I would to up grade my steering box , I have gone through 5 remanufactured and the new one I have now . I have manuel steering . the boxes u showed looks like what I have . getting tired of changing gear boxies

I picked up a dakota box from u pull it. Its visibly larger than xj box.

Cool

So if im planning to get rid of the play in steering wheel of my xj the durango box will work or should i go and buy a redhead steering box sence i have a lifted jeep on 33s that im planning on daily

Price difference perhaps? 🤔

so the older s10's are the exact same thing and the newer ones only difference is the ratio?

I know the 98/99 durango box is a better box, s10 wouldn't get used just because it's chevy.....bad enough my renix uses gm sensors, haven't grow a mullet yet so I think I'm ok since it came that way

What steering box do u use on ur xj for the hydro assist

Looks like 3 and 3 quarter to me

What year Durango boxes are the right ones for the swap? Is the Pittman arms the same?

what about a Durango Box?

I think it's just better on road maybe not offroad

What about a Cherokee gear box in a s10?

Are all xj’s the same?

😂😂 I thought the title said $10 steering box 🤦‍♂️

Long time no post

ive always heard the Durango box is better

please get a better mic set up, you speak well but the mic is too are to pick up the audio well theres no echo, but its low

I wasn't aware that the saginaw steering box was a problem to begin with. They've been around for years, they're cheap and reliable. Why am I even watching this?

just buy a psc big bore....

I would think that the larger holes would add extra power when turning into or off hard obstacles off road