Islam’s Origins: Myth and Material Evidence - Fred Donner

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Sképsislamica

Sképsislamica

5 жыл бұрын

The traditional narrative of Islam’s origins centers on the career of the prophet Muhammad (d. 632 CE) in Arabia and the rapid spread of his movement throughout the Near East immediately after his death. Over the past half-century, however, scholars have come to realize that this picture is the product of the Islamic community of the eighth, ninth, and later centuries and that its goal of providing a satisfying narrative may not accurately reflect how Islam actually began and grew into the major world religion we know today. In this lecture, Fred M. Donner argues that a more historically accurate view of Islam’s origins has been hindered by the scarcity of documentary evidence from the seventh century and considers some of the key sources that may help us understand these momentous events in Islamic history.

Пікірлер: 36
@user-xx3er5tf9u
@user-xx3er5tf9u Жыл бұрын
I am not really very convinced of this thesis about a believers' movement, but I do love Dr Donner's book on the Islamic conquests. I dip into it a lot, and have read it from cover to cover three times. I prefer it to Hugh Kennedy's, I think.
@jawhardawood7667
@jawhardawood7667 2 жыл бұрын
Donner says the word Mu’min is used about 1,000 times in the Qur’an, while in fact it is only used 202 times.
@mebtor
@mebtor 11 ай бұрын
The idea presented here of early Islam as a kind of monotheistic revival movement rather than a distinct religion, more or less aligns with Oswald Spengler's take on Islam in his work The Decline of The West, where he sees the emergence of Islam as a kind of zealous reformation movement within what he calls the "Magian civilization", in which Muhammed represents the same kind of character as a Martin Luther or an Oliver Cromwell. On a completely different note, though, Jason Reza Jorjani has a fascinating, albeit highly speculative take on the origin story of Islam, in which Salman the Persian plays an instrumental role. In short, Jorjani views the creation of Islam as an intelligence operation in order to create a mercenary army with which to overthrow the Sassanid Empire on behalf of the old Parthian royal houses. The army of angels that allegedly helped the muslims defeat the Persians according to Islamic mythology, was really an army of Parthian green clad knights, according to Jorjani's theory.
@MegaBaddog
@MegaBaddog 3 ай бұрын
Jason Reza Jorjani is a shiite scoundrel
@ahmadradwan5914
@ahmadradwan5914 3 ай бұрын
Why his hair is blue?
@TOMOR450
@TOMOR450 Ай бұрын
I don't know brother😂😂😂
@babulsarwar3714
@babulsarwar3714 Жыл бұрын
What does Fred Donner believe in? Is he a muslim or a christian, or an etheist, or a hindu or a budhist or even an an agnostic?
@babulsarwar3714
@babulsarwar3714 Жыл бұрын
@H K Phooey To me it is a relevant question to understand his lecture better. Looks like he lacks some solid meanings of quranic words.
@Geletin911
@Geletin911 Жыл бұрын
most academics are atheist or agnostic
@crusher1980
@crusher1980 Жыл бұрын
There are really only 2 religions in the world, look up the 3 part series of Spencer Smith "The Third Adam".
@Geletin911
@Geletin911 Жыл бұрын
@@crusher1980 fuck em all
@soohamdy8538
@soohamdy8538 Жыл бұрын
​@@crusher1980 No there is only one religion came from god and that is islam
@mewying5184
@mewying5184 Жыл бұрын
sam gerrans a muslim also believes this
@jawhardawood7667
@jawhardawood7667 2 жыл бұрын
The so-called “Constitution of Madinah” must be authentic and very very old because Donner wants it to be so.
@ianmcdonald8648
@ianmcdonald8648 3 жыл бұрын
Muhammad was either a true prophet of God, or he was a false prophet who claimed to speak God's Words. In the Book of Numbers chapters 22-24, there is the account of a certain prophet named Balaam during the reign of Balak king of Moab. Balak required Balaam to come to him and curse the Israelites who were arrayed before him. Balak offered him a great finanacial reward if he did curse Israel Balaam went, but as he went Yahweh (the Lord God) told him that he was not to go with the messengers of Balak. You can read the story. Then, God said you may go but you will only say what I tell you to say. So God put words in Balaam's mouth and those words are very majestic and specific, and intriguing. Balaam prophesied 4 times but only to bless. After this event, Balaam remembering the offer of Balak finally went to him and told him how he could overcome Israel. He did this for money. Even though the words Balaam uttered were from God, Balaam is called a false prophet by later prophets of God because he went after money and arranged for the Israelities to succomb to Moabite women. Balaam was thus responsible for leading Israelites away from God. It is here we must take note of what Moses says in Deuteronomy chapter 13 - When a prophet claims to be speaking in the name of God, but that prophet later leads the people away from the Lord God to other gods (idolatry), then that prophet is a false prophet and was at that time to be killed for his rebellion. Moses also gives another instruction about false prophets. This can be found in Deuteronomy chapter 18. This time he says that when a prophet speaks in the name of God and the thing he says does not come to pass then he is to be considered a false prophet and is not to be followed. This passage in Deut 18 is Islam's strongest evidence that Muhammad is spoke of in the Bible. Seeing Muslim scholars claim that Muhammad is spoken about as the prophet like to Moses, we have every right to examine every word that he said God told him to say - which is supposed to be all the Qur'an, and measure it against the warnings given by Moses. Muhammad claims to have ben taken to Jerusalem and see the Mosque there and from there to ascend into heaven and receive the command to pray 5 times each day. This command is one of the main parts of the Islamic faith. There was no Islamic Mosque in Jerusalem in the years that Muhammad was a prophet. The Islamic mosque was not being built till very late in the 7th century and not finished till the early 700 AD. Muhammad did not see a mosque in jerusalem before his death, and could not have ascended into heaven and received any command from God at that time while he was supposed to have ascended. Seeing this word is from Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet - messenger, then Muhammad is a false prophet who leads astray many people, and Allah is not to be believed. The Qur'an is not infallible.
@lionelchan1601
@lionelchan1601 3 жыл бұрын
The Hadith claim many things that make no sense. However, Mr Donner's thesis is consistent with those that believe in the Qur'an and treat the Hadith as a poor basis for law or "religion", let alone "Sunnah". Where the Qur'an and the Hadith conflict, Islam sadly often goes with Hadith. Hadith as a kind of approximate, not quite reliable guide is harmless enough, but to veto the Qur'an destroys it's own validity.
@isntitfunny3885
@isntitfunny3885 2 жыл бұрын
Than what would u say about Moses going to Mount Tor..? How do u get the evidence of that?? Bro u peolpe's hypocrisy drives u away from ur Creator 💔
@isntitfunny3885
@isntitfunny3885 2 жыл бұрын
@@lionelchan1601 u talking about Hadith being poor source while u people urslef r extremely confuse about ur so called book of God that u urself delete some part of it being false nd sometimes adding something to add some validity to ir claims.. I found Christianity the most confusing nd confused religion.. Alas
@ianmcdonald8648
@ianmcdonald8648 2 жыл бұрын
@@isntitfunny3885 "Mount Tor..?" where's that? There is no such mountain in the Biblical text. Perhaps you mispelt...
@lionelchan1601
@lionelchan1601 2 жыл бұрын
@@isntitfunny3885 Peace Friend, If I were to choose between (extant) Christianity and say Sunni Islam, I would go with the latter. Recognising that hadith/narratives are easily corrupted is that which the latter certainly has going for it, instead of maintaining an irrational "all human defined scripture of our brand is perfect" line. Let us all be careful in making assumptions about our neighbours' and brother's views or background with no actual 'Alim, as it inevitably leads to Aklaq revealing transgressions in Adab. Shalom.
@jawhardawood7667
@jawhardawood7667 2 жыл бұрын
When he lies, his eyes don’t even blink! He says Islam and Muslim in the Qur’an do not mean what they came to mean later. What is the evidence? Nothing. Just Donner’s whims.
@mewying5184
@mewying5184 Жыл бұрын
watch sam gerrans his is a muslim who also believes this and proves it through the text
@soohamdy8538
@soohamdy8538 Жыл бұрын
​@@mewying5184 Doesnt mean that he is a muslim that he understand Any thing!!!!
@EHemmati
@EHemmati Жыл бұрын
Another deception to mislead people! The Quran tells us that Islam is the Religion and the only Religion acceptable by God. His claim is contrary to what our Holy Book teaches. For instance: the Quran says: ... الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا ... This day I have perfected your religion for you and completed My favor to you. I have approved Islam to be your religion. (As for) he who does not intend to commit a sin but is constrained by hunger to eat of what is forbidden, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (5:3) Also: ... إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ الْإِسْلَامُ Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam ... (3:19) Yet he thinks that Islam wasn't a religion at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)!
@mikkelhansen9419
@mikkelhansen9419 2 жыл бұрын
What a liar. He doesn't know anything about a prophet Muhamed in Mecca year 570 - 632.
@whysoreligious2657
@whysoreligious2657 2 жыл бұрын
That’s a ridiculous statement
@annemurphy9339
@annemurphy9339 2 жыл бұрын
There was no Mecca until approximately 200 years before muhammad.
@soohamdy8538
@soohamdy8538 Жыл бұрын
​@@annemurphy9339 in historical records! May be
@Stardust475
@Stardust475 10 ай бұрын
That date and biography was written over 200 yrs later!
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