The humility of Dr Carrier remembering his audience while saying the fact Jesus “might not have existed” as one option for the Jesus story can’t be ignored. I’ve gone down the wormhole of his awesome lectures on Jesus being fictitious and it’s very convincing! Can’t get enough of his interviews

Lloyd, thank you for sharing this fascinating and informative conversation!

Thank you, Dr. Carrier! Honest, plain truths that give perspective to history is always incredibly useful when examining the present day. Your intelligent words are a balm to critical thinkers who grew up trapped in JW dogma.

Lloyd, Great discussion. It was great to bring a scholarly perspective from Dr. Carrier into the historical teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses. I really appreciate your episodes that cover the authenticity (or lack thereof) and inconsistencies of the Bible. I believe this is critical to establish exactly what the Bible IS and IS NOT. Once that is acknowledged, it helps to put into perspective the "interpretation squabbling" that is apparent among institutions (including Jehovah's Witnesses) that use this book as the very foundation of their religions. In reality, all of the confusion and disagreements regarding what the Bible says or teaches is to be expected when you consider the source. This has proven to be very profound to me.

Holes in Daniel's prophecy were pivotal to me losing all confidence in Watchtower. Although I wanted to at least remain a Christian I knew none of it was true. Now an agnostic atheist.

Lloyd we need more of Richard on your channel. He is just amazing.

Great interview! I've listened to Dr. Carrier many times but it was very fascinating to hear him through a JW-lense.

Very interesting guest, fascinating information. Thank you for this show.

Dr. Carrier is an amazing person. I am glad that we (atheists) have someone like him on our side!

Love Dr Carrier's work and love it when you work together on content. Its great to see you touch on this topic again as I thoroughly enjoyed your videos on the Daniel drama. Hope your 2023 has started well!

I bought Dr Carrier's book Historiocity of Jesus and it's phenomenal...

"It's hard to make predictions...especially about the future." Yogi Berra

Excellent discussion. Thanks.

Always a good time when you have Carrier on.

One of your best I’d love more with this knowledgeable scholar.❤

Thank you so much, Dr. Carrier, and Lloyd, for the amazing video and the educated and educational conversation. 💐

This is off topic, I know, but the 2022 Service Year Report is out. There were 8,514,983 average publishers for 2022, which is 34,836 more than 2021. 145,552 were baptised, which means 110,716 Jehovah's Witnesses are gone

I don’t understand how this information is so easy to find yet easy to ignore by devoted Christians

Incredible stuff!! Thank you Lloyd for providing us this material. The links are well appreciated. To think, I got more from this one interview, than my entire youth wrapped in witness nonsense! Keep up the good work, and as always, stay safe and be well.

Fantastic information. Thanks, Dr.!

Well, I thoroughly enjoyed the video and the information brought out. 👍👌🤔

Growing up, I remember JWs saying that scholars thought Daniel was written years later ONLY because they couldn't accept the "fact" that it predicted the future. Same with Isaiah and the Cyrus "prediction"

This is a very important finding, since so many of the current Evangelical pastors are still predicting the Rapture and the Return of Jesus Christ basing their time frames on the Book of Daniel. If the foundation is false, how can anything built on it be true.

Thank you for an interesting and informative discussion, gentlemen.

I love how Dr. Carrier doesn't beat around the bush and instead uses plain words like "forgery." I get so sick of scholars who know better kissing up to believers by toning down the facts or finding hedge words to obfuscate what the facts are.

Fantastic!!!

Well I brought up the many historical mistakes of Daniel when I was discussing with an elder, and he just waved it off like we know so little of the past so a future discovery will probably prove that the Bible was right all along. Yeah, can't really argue with that.

Thanks Lloyd, great scholar.

Wow! Mind blowing!

Great interview Lloyd. There is nothing like listening to logically placed history as opposed to what the WTBTS puts forward. As I said before keep up the good work. Have Mr. Carrier/Dr. Carrier back for additional interviews!😅 59:03 23:10 hours 12thJan2023.

Super interesting, thanks!

From what I've seen about Richard Carrier, his mind is very very Hellenized.

For me, growing e Roman Catholic, I thought I was a believer . It took me until I turned 53 this year to gather the guts to tell everyone that I have been an Atheist for several years. I have a question for anyone reading this. Do you think that many people live their entire lives as believers, because they are afraid of what others may say and they are also afraid to speak their truth for fear that if it IS TRUE they will have consequences to pay for denouncing their belief? That was why I stayed quiet for many years

Daniel was written during the times of the Maccabees which is included in the Catholic Bible,

@ Lloyd do you know for certain that active JW’s watch your channel do you have metrics on this? It would be amazing if they did!

It's very nice to have a video that lines up with our own views..

Armageddon has been cancelled due to lack of interest. Justin Porter ex jw ❤️

Alexander the Great was one of the most enlightened rulers in history. Did he wage "wars of aggression"? Why, yes! (what king or general, in those days, didn't?). But the lands he conquered were better off under his rule, than they had been, before. And he welcomed the conquered peoples into his empire as equals (which pissed off his Macedonians, no end: They preferred the old way of doing things---loot, slay, & enslave defeated enemies). And wherever he went, he built cities that were centers of learning. THIS was the man whom many Christians consider to have been an "ANTI-CHRIST," based on "Daniel."

Apocalyptic writings was a literary style of those days, like today we have for example Sci-fiction.

This was interesting. I have heard Dr Carrier and others on this topic but was never aware of the specifics of how it was taken by JW. Seeing this interview, I wonder if the zombie apocalypse in Matthew (only) was supposed to be the “second fruit” of resurrection and and a sign that things had been kicked off to a hot start.

This is fascinating, but frankly, Dr. Carrier’s explanation is like a run away train. LLoyd, would it be possible for you to break this down perhaps in a way that more directly rebuts the jw Daniel teachings. You’re a gifted teacher and you’re in a unique position to present this more clearly. Thx

Great video, I'm hoping in a future video you guys could cover the statue that gets destroyed.

Very interesting.

"You have your average person who's getting their Ph.D. in Babylonian history..." Don't I know it! It's getting so you can't walk through the quad without tripping over some bab his phud!

Dr. Richard Carrier always on point

This is exactly what I needed years ago!! Now that I’ve already deprogrammed myself, this is just icing on the cake, the cherry on top, the candle on the cake, just all of it 🎂🍒🧁….just thank you🙏🔥💘Lloyd, and Dr. Carrier🥹☝️🙏

Issac Newton was obsessed by Daniel. He studied it deeply in his latter years.

Great video. Thanks Question: Lloyd, your accent sounds exacly like the politician William Hague. No disrespect!! I'm wondering, as a Brit if you and he grew up in the same area of the UK? (I like to think I can pidgeon-hole people) :)

Compelling evidence w/ historical facts. I recall as I was disproving 607 BCE was an actual date using scriptures, publications outlining the Babylonian lineage of kings & their length of rule (in the words of David Splane: Do The Math), I recall having ?’s last yr about the authenticity of Daniel. One example is Jer. 46:2 vs. Daniel 1:1. Jeremiah said the siege happened in Jehoiakim’s 4th yr, but Daniel 1:1 said 3rd yr. The explanation or justification is “depending on what calendar is being used, they’re both correct.” OK, I accepted that; what I didn’t accept is what’s being outlined on this interview. The succession of King didn’t equate to undeniable historical records. The in-depth that’s being discussed is mind blowing.

Hi Lloyd, I followed you for a good while on another channel. Then you disappeared. Now I found you again thanks to RC.

We know that Jesus is make-believe when the Christians imagined that he became the judge of the dead in the afterlife, like he's Pinhead in those dumb _Hellraiser_ movies or something. It's like how Dante imagined that a virtuous pagan Roman named Cato became the guardian to the entrance to Purgatory in his _Divine Comedy._ In both cases, the imaginary characters in the afterlife with the names Jesus and Cato bear no relationship to whatever historical figures answered to those names.

I grew up 7th Day Adventist who ALSO put a disproportionate emphasis on Daniel due to their history with the William Miller movement. But they see the critical passages being the great statue representing Babylon, MedioPersia Greece (of Alexander) and Rome. But THESE are the most critical empires to come? Not the Mongols? Not Britain?

Thanks 👍

I’d pay to see him debate Thomas Ross over this theme!.

It occurred to me that whenever people, such as William Miller, Charles T. Russell, Edgar Whisenant and a myriad others, take it upon themselves to scour the Bible books of Daniel and Revelation for hints on when the end of the world will come, all their convoluted calculations end up placing the end in their own lifetime. The end is always nigh! Coming soon! Funny how nobody ever seems to do the math and conclude, "oh, the world won't end for another 200 years, I guess I can rest easy." LOL

You have to wonder (sigh, yet again) why Jesus wasn't born in a time and place where they were writing on clay tablets. OR god could have told the NT writers to start on clay. (After all, supposedly the 10 commandments were engraved on stone - and yet this tablet in god's handwriting was lost along the way, yet again wiping out the omni/omni/omni claim.)

All the shorts caused me to watch this one again

I’m literally searching all over for a non interview oriented video where it isn’t assumed everyone read his article and already knows the argument. It’s frustrating when the interviewer doesn’t consider the pov of an audience not privy to a somewhat obscure body of knowledge.

Daniel couldn’t have known the exact date of the Messiah’s coming nor the fact the Messiah would come during the reign of the Roman Empire

No, he totally wrote it himself. Like Moses was real? Living in the desert for years on food dropping from the sky, yeah right.

Some people were so smart to almost convence the whole world that they're the chosen ones and that the world should rever them as people of god. They can do no wrong and if they do, they're forgiven by their own universe creator god. Yikes!. The other 2 religions call them a) the chosen ones and b) the people of the book. My grandpa was one of them and he used to laugh at them and called'em cows. He called himself of the Benjamin tribe. Thanks for bringing history to light

Those suggesting that Jesus never existed, that it was another person who gave the Sermon on the Mount. (Matt 5v1-21). Have, in the past , also denied the existance of Pontius Pilate. However, in 1961, in the town of Caesarea, 54 miles NNW of Jerusalem, a worn stone step was being turned over. On the reverse side was inscribed "Pontius Pilate, Governer of Judea". The text also referred to "Tiberium", a large building that Pilate had dedicated to the Emperor Tiberius Caesar. Evidence always mysteriously turns up to confound those questioning the authenticity of the Bible!

The whole Bible just reads as a DnD campaign backstory.

Forgery in god's word? It is insane!

Why would Daniel use a Julian calendar when that wasnt invented until centuries later? There is evidence that a prophetic year was used in his writing, consisting of 30 day months. This was also used in Genesis and also Revelation, another ''prophetic' book. The decree is likely Artaxerxes decree in 444BC (it even mentions the wall of the city, which Daniel references). So 69 x 7 = 483 prophetic years = 476 julian years = AD 33. Jesus was crucified in AD 33.

Josephus gives an account of Alexander the Great being shown the prophesy in the book of Daniel regarding the Greek king who defeats Persia. Why did Alexaner the great spare Jerusalem is a good youtube vid on this.

So, how many people still cling to any sort of literal interpretation? Certainly no one I interact with in my life is in that camp. Are there really still enough of them to have any sort of major influence in the world? I chat on IRC (yeah, I know - old fashioned) with a group of people scattered over the world. I'm constantly amazed by their perception of America as some bulwark of religion - this is just not the America I see around me here where I live (in Texas not too far from Houston). The people I live around and work with mostly strike me as people who just go about their business and don't pay religion any particularly big attention.

Faith seems to be a very hard thing for most people.

Next week: Is Stanta Claus real?

Bless you in the name of our holy savior Ghost of Kyiv!

Fallacious appeals to academic authority seem to be the main avenue of criticism against Dr Carrier's work

The purpose of Daniel is mainly to support the victorious Jewish regime? The Jewish rabbis have 4 ways of interpreting scripture, this comment deals with the "Remez" way. The following verse is Jehova speaking. Joshua 24:14. Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD. ----- How many times does he say "I am the LORD thy God who brought thee out of the land of Egypt" in the Bible? A lot. What God did they serve in Egypt that he wanted them to put away? Let's go back to the first chat between him and Moses. Exodus 3. 13. And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Isreal, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? ---- "The God of your fathers"-Johsua 24:14. 14. And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Isreal, I AM hath sent me unto you. ----- Already this sounds suspicious. Who is I AM? John 8. 54. Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: ---- Woah. "...of whom ye say, that he is your God..." 55. Yet ye have not known him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. ---- "Yet ye have not known him..." Jesus said it himself. Plain as day. 56. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. ---- There it is. "I AM THAT I AM" means simply, "I AM THAT JESUS". But he wasn't. Exodus 6. 2. And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3. And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVA was I not known to them. ----- Who then said "I AM God Almighty"? Jesus. Jehova just said in 3:15 that I AM is his name for ever. But he never used it again. Jehova told Moses about Abraham. Genesis 22:14. And Abraham called the name of that place Jehova-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. ---- That's called getting caught in a lie. Abraham did not know anyone by the name of Jehova, according to Jehova. This casts serious doubt on the entire history of the Hebrews before Moses. And indeed, Jehova lied about it. Specifically, how they ended up in Egypt. Isreal was never promised to Abraham. Jesus's kingdom is not of this world. So does the Bible tell us what really happened back there with the Hebrews? Yes. There are prophetic chapters in the book of Daniel, and chapters about the events during Daniel's life. Those events are allegories to the true history of the Hebrews. For example, King Belshazzar represents King Solomon. After Belshazzar's death, the kingdom was split into the Medes and Persians. After Solomon's death, the kingdom was split into Isreal and Judah. Daniel 5. 26. This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it. 27. TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. 28. PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians. ---- 1 Kings 11. 11. Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant. 12. Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son. 13. Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen. ---- Daniel in the lion's den represents the Babylonian captivity. Daniel 2:49. Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king. ---- Daniel 6:24. And the king commanded, and they brought those men which had accused Daniel, and they cast them into the den of lions, them, their children, and their wives; and the lions had the mastery of them, and brake all their bones in pieces or ever they came at the bottom of the den. ---- Ezekiel 26. 2. Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste: 3. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up. 4. And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. ---- Ok. So why were the Hebrews really taken to Egypt? Daniel 3:6. And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace. ---- "And who is THAT God that shall deliver you out of my hands?" Daniel 3:25. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. ----- Ok, Nebuchadnezzar represents Jehova, who decided that instead of killing the Hebrews, it would be even better to deceive them into worshipping him. They just might fall for it this time. They sure did. See Numbers 21:6-9. The burning fiery furnace is: Deuteronomy 4:20. But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day. ----- Ok, the whole book of Joshua corresponds to: Daniel 3:30. Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, in the province of Babylon. ----- Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego are allegorical to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Matthew 8. 11. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. ------- That's why the Jews were special. They were the only people on the whole planet who refused to bow down to Jehova (Satan) 4000 years ago.

Why and who would believe these people who are "revising" political and religious history? They "research" writings of ancient and modern "historians" and make their revisionist conclusions. Don't they realized that the "current crop of historians" don't even agree? So 100 or 2000 years from now? the cycle will start all over again just like today.

Not sure what point Dr. Carrier is trying to make. Anyone reading the Book of Daniel would quickly realize that Daniel, like Noah and Job are allegories. St. Jerome did not want to include the stories that make up the Book of Daniel in the Vulgate, only including them in the appendix called the Apocrypha along with the other non-canonical books of the Old Testament. St. Augustine held them as inspirational stories commenting that if the literal interpretation contradicts science and humans' God-given reason, the biblical text should be interpreted metaphorically. This is clearly a strawman argument against Christianity by presenting the untenable Fundamentalist position, held by a small minority of Protestants, as being representative of Christian belief and is disingenuous.

If Paul met James in his life than maybe Jesus did exist. James was the brother of Jesus.

The Bible hints it is allegory with parables so to creating historic is your fault of how the mind taught literal person's was literal stories when its what the mind doubts Imagination being fiction is your state still looking for dust to solve it.

Does this video explain what it is a forgery of? If the word is being misused (in the title!) then it is not a good advertisment for the coherence of the content..

Lloyd trying to indoctrinate Richard Collier with JW propaganda 😂🤣

Test everything, hold on to the good and avoid every kind of evil. "If you want to know if my teachings come from God do them and you'll find out."Jesus Don't be too quick to throw out the bath water, the baby might still be in the deeper end!

Before 1609, a geocentric system was common knowledge. So much for common knowledge.

This is shocking!!

False dichotomy fallacy states there's more than 1 conclusion that can be drawn in response to a single interpretation/assertion: When the doctor states there's no evidence of Daniel's presence amongst Royals, He forgets that the narrative would be a great source of embarrassment for the Persians, resulting in obfuscation/destruction of records pertaining to him. Furthermore, the Persians have been trying to annihilate Hebrews (off and on) for millennia: it would be in their best interests to amplify Daniel's non- existence, politically, but not a peep. Poor scholarly practices/inaccuracies don't equate forgery. It is political suicide for the Hebrews to make "bogus" claims involving Royalty that would be summarily debunked: I think the good doctor suffers from the kind of myopia found with a lot of highly intelligent people, who have little to no real world awareness.

The Bible is not journalism .

I wish this guy knew how to lecture. I’m sure why he doesn’t. I just want him to lay out the argument point by point. I’m not a believer. I’m just a lover of history.

I don't know about "forgery." It's probably more like "fan fiction," only the Jews who came across it later didn't get the joke, and they took it for authentic.

Why can't AI translate all of that stuff? Imagine how many useless theologians that's going to put out of work.

Let me more clear I am talking about Nabonidus cylinder proof Daniel is true

"Oh, he also has a picture of Obama near his desk. I thought I was the only one."

Everything that is in the bible is there for a reason. Period.

Carrier is young enough that it will be a pleasure to see his face when the prophecies of Daniel yet to come (as referred to by Jesus) begin to come to pass.

Being 50 years old and witnessing so much of the documentary hypothesis uprooted one dig after another , discovery after discovery until even the father it's hard to take anything built out of the fankurt German school of thought and tradition serious. Along with most of what rockerfellers early 1900-1960s archaeology. They did do a real number on it until the last 30 years.

Good Point Made an Topics We're Is Nearest Chicken Restaurant Near By?

The more I stufy Daniel the more it becomes clear it is purely a Hellenistic creation, as is most of the Bible. That's not a bad thing either.

The book of Daniel and its entirety was found with the Dead Sea scrolls... How did that happen if it's a forgery ?

SBF Is that you?

The ex JW talking to the naturalist ie people who just can't handle the idea of God.. predictable story telling..

Just read the scriptures. Do not listen to a JW.

But Jesus said they would see the abomination of desolation as spoken of in the Book of Daniel. Jesus mentioned the Book of Daniel.

Let's have some clarity here. The Book Daniel, prophesied that the Iron in the immense image would fragment into constituent powers, but somehow continuing as one entity into latter times. Now, whether one thinks this is a coincidence or not, Rome did fragment into the modern empires of Britain, France, Italy and Spain etc. Also, Rome unlike Babylon etc was not overthrown by a successive empire. Rather it self fragmented, but is now reforming again. Somehow, these constituent powers, would carry on into the future, in which a rock "not" made by human hands would destroy these nations and the immense image. Now, the interpretation of this scripture as being Rome and its later sibling empires cannot be disputed in this context. To make matters more fascinating , these former fragmented powers are now (as I type) forming a new expanding empire called the EU. The EU has grown to more than 27 nations and looking further afield for new members. So, is this coincidence or not? IMO this is Godly prophecy coming true.

No it isn't. Elton and Bernie definitely wrote Daniel...😁