John Anderson, it is such a shame that people like you aren't leading this country. Straight talking, thoughtful, strategic thinking and considerate of history. I yearn for this change. I hope you can influence our future politicians, or yourself to give a better leadership model for Australia. Thank you for this talk, it was really interesting and thoughtful.

this guy WAS making sense, untill he mentioned Syria, I saw what Isis did to Iraqi men on the tigris, lining them up and executing them. and so when you say russia was wrong to have joined the conflict in Syria, then you lost me, the place is at peace now especially since we funded the proxy war in the first place.

If referring to Russian doctrine on nuclear weapons, it actually says nuclear weapons would be used, if their nuclear capabilities are attacked/get launch warning. It is NOT to saying that it allows using nuclear just a preemptive strike on occasion. Whether they stick to doctrine or no is separate question, but if one is referring to doctrine, then do it right.

Its good to hear views from all sides, but Prof. Gray was just voicing average opinions about topics he seemed to have only read about in the general media, I didn't feel any insights were given

Was kinda funny that Straw Dogs wasn't mentioned amongst his publications. That book is still a masterpiece.

Please explain why Ukraine being a neutral country was such a difficult concept to accept

Philosophy today has become poisoned by bad faith sophists. It’s an absolute anathema to the fundamental core of what philosophy is to have evolved this way. There aren’t many, at least in the anglopsphere, like John left.

I read _The Immortalization Commission,_ it's an excellent book. Also, I recommend _Black Mass,_ if you liked this interview.

Tucker Carlson is not pro Putin. Sick of this claim.

John Howard's deputy PM should know a lot about war criminals

Tucker Carlson is very critical of western imperialism, not pro Putin.

Thanks great conversation!

Thank you both for this fascinating and sobering discussion.

John Gray is so out of touch with Russian reality he must have been watching / reading the BBC

It is such a comfort to listen to well dressed Gentlemen, discuss contemporary concepts like Communism, as the economy collapses around them..... The Smartly Attired Swells of London discussing the brazen desires of the St Perersburg Crowd, to interfere with the exploitation of India for fun and profit, kept the Press Gangs of Liverpool working overtime to round up bodies in 1853 to deliver to the gates of Sevastopol. The similarities to this conversation may have been an inspiration to the Widows of the Light Brigade, in their mourning? The families of the Mercs who seem to find themselves in Russian Custody, would now enjoy the fact that some things never seem to change, as the efforts to support exploitation of Russian Assets continues today. What brave souls linger within the Underground Facilities of the Azovstal Underground POW Camp? How shall Conservative Values contribute to the betterment of social stability? Will the Project for the New American Century succeed to restore sanity? Viva La Stability!

I've always enjoyed Gray talking about theories of history, and did here, but his views on current issues like Ukraine and Covid seem hopelessly middle of the road and unreflective . For example, he speaks of Putin wanting to protect "the Russian world", which he seems to regard as some kind of pre-rational political mysticism. It doesn't seem to occur to him that he speaks about defending the west in precisely the same way - the desire to defend the West being simply the natural thing to do. In relation to Covid, he presents the Covid vaccination campaign as undiluted "science", as though commerce and politics played no part in it. When talking about the barbarous practise of "former persons" under communism; it doesn't occur how close we came, or may still come, to making the so-called "unvacinated" community "former persons."

Exceptional!

Interesting to reflect that as much as Merkel was lauded as a great politician of her generation, she is directly responsible for the two worst European geopolitical moves in recent history. Those being on immigration (which led directly to Brexit imo) and reliance on Russian energy. Could argue she was too EU focused perhaps, in which case, the ramifications of those choices have an added bitter irony.

Fascinating exchange.

Great conversation.

Best to date. Well done

What climate problem. The one that is a transfer of money and power to the rich?

Great discussion and insights! Thank you

Thanks John , Please look into the recent UN and WEF , World economic forum , recent joint agreement for the Acceleration and implementation of the Agenda 2030 . People don't understand how precious freedom is ( untill it slowly taken away or given away ) .

John Gray seems to ignore the war in Ukraine wouldn't have been a disaster if the US hadn't forced European partners if it ( US) wasn't adamant to non- negotiations

Phenomenal conversation. I remember studying John Gray in college. I've never seen him in an interview and it was great.

The fact that we do not share Putin's values is key. From Ghenghis Khan to Stalin and Mao, autocratic rulers will destroy entire cities and eradicate populations in order to achieve political ambition. The greatest failure of Western Liberal democracy has been to assume that globalisation of trade will harmonise political ideology. Unfashionable though it may be, military power is the essential underpinning of political power, and Europe has lost sight of that fact. The point about ignorance of history and preference for studying our own oppressions is real insight. Altogether an excellent presentation. Thanks for your efforts.

Thank you both. From a viewer in the Commonwealth of The Bahamas.🌸🌸🌸

Well, I do not have his text on Mill, but I do have John's book, Feline Philosophy - Cats and the Meaning of Life. An excellent read if you have the time.

Wow, thank you again John

What about the various treaties and assurances that NATO would not be creeping eastward?

Very interesting. Please work on getting the microphones worked out better. Much of Mr. Gray's audio was horribly muffled.

We have all these great minds that try to frame the future for us. However, truth be told, none of us can tell what will happen five minutes from now.

Always a pleasure to read or hear John Gray. In this case, the experience of seeing a highly intelligent and articulate man base his analysis on an uncritical acceptance of the prevailing narrative promoted by a media class which has proven itself profoundly unreliable over the last six years was as instructive as it was disappointing.

Isaiah Berlin

This man is part of the establishment that got us to where we are today. People may want to consider that before they pay homage to his brilliance.

Mr. Gray. The US citizenry isn't afraid of nuclear power plants to the extent you let on here. The US needs the fed government to subsidize nuclear power plant projects and help to clean up the regulatory problems that keep it so expensive.

How interesting.

I’m flabbergasted at the lack of ‘rationality’ displayed in this discussion. Prof Gray lost me the moment he declared such support for NATO. Any objective/philosophical undergraduate in the west today would never describe NATO as a defensive force. The prejudicial assessment of current Russian society is completely without nuance and tolerance. There is no reference to the economic achievements of the Russian government following the departure of Yeltsin or indeed the destructive role of America immediately after the dissolution of the USSR. John Mearsheimer may not be a philosopher but he has my vote. If Prof Gray is regarded as an eminent philosopher then I really fear for the future of this planet. Like Mearsheimer I hope for the transformation to a multipolar world and the end of US hegemony. Therein will lie the possibility of a return to diplomacy and negotiation. I would venture to suggest that rather than pursuing an immature notion of Putin the villain this philosopher would benefit from widening his knowledge of realistic geopolitics.

18:15. I clicked off at this coincidental point. “That’s enough.” John Gray describes a world I would read about, if I were to read the New York Times regularly, a view of the world I recognize, but am convinced is about to change. I’ve walked Manhattan on enough cloudy days to know that “All the News That’s Fit to Print” ignores the realities above the first floor, and has done so for over 20 years. To use the propitious 1815 lay of the Land…. The brutality of Russia’s failed invasion of Ukraine rearranged the deck chairs on the ship taking brutes to St. Helena. The brutes will still get there, no matter how many times the chairs are moved around.

The show is more like parents talking about their unruly teen agers.

What a brilliant interview. Prof Gray shared some tremendously profound insights in this interview. I look forward to reading your books, Sir.

I respect all the conversations and I acknowledge the people in them are highly intelligent, therefore even when I disagree I listen. However, I have fundamentally different views on China and what is happening in Ukraine, from what I consider to be good research and knowledge of the history of the Ukraine and China, and a peek into China from my wife who is Chinese, born in 1966 so has seen the worst of China and also the rise and rise of China. She was in China in 1989 and has a far more nuanced view of events such as Tiananmen square. Time will tell who is right, in particular about Ukraine, probably a long time. John, I am reminded of Doug Anthony sending off young men to die in Vietnam when I listen to you. There is still debate on whether he was right or wrong. I fear the consequences of getting it wrong this time are far more severe. ...... and this is only a comment, so I concentrated on making points rather than explaining

Exactly what I was waiting for, 1+ hour on the topic!

Good subjects covered. It could of been part one and then part two as John Gray could of talked more about China etc. I would of liked to watch more from this interview. Well done John.

Timestamps if you want them: 00:12 💥 John Gray highlights the limitations of Western deterrence due to the fear of nuclear escalation. 02:07 🎓 Gray criticizes modern philosophy for becoming an "intra-academic" discipline, lacking real-world applicability. 04:41 🌍 Gray explains his support for Thatcher due to her militant anti-communism and understanding of its consequences. 07:45 🇨🇳 Gray argues that China never intended to liberalize, debunking a common Western misconception. 09:21 🤝 Gray contests the idea that trade with totalitarian powers leads to them becoming less totalitarian. 10:29 🌐 China doesn't prioritize world opinion; repression in the country serves as a lesson for its people. 11:28 🧠 The West has a short attention span, failing to remember the history of communist repression and deception. 13:50 🤝 NATO is emerging as a successful Western institution, but political divisions in Europe and the U.S. could undermine it. 16:48 🇺🇸 Uncertainty in U.S. politics could affect the country's global commitments, especially if the next president leans towards isolationism or scaling down its role. 19:06 🌍 The Ukraine war marks a breakdown in the global nuclear settlement, posing risks like dampened interest in civilian nuclear energy and potential nuclear proliferation. 21:11 🌍 Putin's approach to risk differs from the Western perspective, driven by a semi-mystical concept of protecting the "Russian world," which goes beyond the current borders of Russia. 22:22 💥 Putin is willing to break norms, such as battlefield nuclear weapons, to achieve his goals, which poses challenges to traditional notions of deterrence. 25:13 ⏳ There are questions about the sustainability of a prolonged war for Putin due to logistical problems and human resource drain. 27:42 🌐 The Russian Federation may be more fragile than it appears, being a "corroded empire" rather than a unified nation state. 30:01 ⚖️ A regime change in Russia could result in the state collapsing, leading to unpredictable outcomes similar to previous cases like Iraq and Libya. 31:10 ⛪ The Russian Orthodox Church plays a significant role in Putin's regime, even taking on functions similar to those once held by the KGB. 32:34 🌍 The invasion of Ukraine is justified in Russia on a theological basis, emphasizing the importance of Russian civilization and orthodoxy. 35:06 🇺🇸 Europe's role in the Ukraine crisis is questionable without U.S. support, highlighting Europe's military and logistical limitations. 37:28 🇩🇪 Germany has not committed to becoming a significant military spender, partly due to its energy dependency on Russia. 39:03 🇷🇺 Putin is prepared to weather the economic sanctions, believing their impact on Russian society to be sustainable. 41:27 🌍 The speaker expresses strong concerns about Russian propaganda in Ukraine, emphasizing that it should not be allowed to happen, as it would lead to the erasure of Ukraine's national culture. 42:40 🤝 Discusses the reliance of European countries on American engagement, questioning if America can balance military conflicts and ramping up defense structures at the same time. 44:19 🔄 Raises questions about the current ideological landscape, wondering if the resurgence of absolutism and trust in science contradicts the post-modernist narrative that Western society had previously embraced. 46:16 🧠 Mentions the rise of conspiracy theories and mass panics, despite scientific progress, challengingoptimistic views about the rationalization of society. 50:35 📚 Discusses the tendency to neglect history, emphasizing that historical lessons often bring a sobering perspective contrary to optimistic or utopian views. 51:45 🤔 One reason for the stalwart attitudes in countries like Ukraine and Poland is their vivid historical memory of invasions and tragedies. 52:54 📖 Western thinkers often ignore disillusioning parts of history, preferring to focus on areas of oppression that they can critique to feel virtuous. 55:03 📜 The concept of "former persons" in the 1918 Soviet constitution demonstrates the extreme deprivation of civic rights, illustrating the harsh realities of Soviet rule. 59:56 ⏳ Gains in democracy and rights are not permanent; evils like totalitarian regimes can reemerge, as seen in Putinism and in China's shift back to totalitarianism. 01:01:48 🇨🇳 A misunderstanding about China's political structure led to the false belief that trading and technological collaboration would liberalize the country. 01:02:17 🇨🇳 In China, key institutions and the economy are tightly controlled by the government, diminishing the possibility of a revolution from within, such as from the army. 01:03:56 ✝️ Modern secular movements, often critical of traditional Christianity, unknowingly express religious themes, particularly the idea of conquering mortality. 01:05:37 🧠 The concept of "Singularity," popularized by figures like Ray Kurzweil, posits that technology will advance to the point where human minds can be uploaded, offering a form of immortality. 01:09:08 🤖 Transhumanism suggests that humans could become "gods" through advancements in AI, but the actual implementation would likely be more dystopian, involving warring factions each with their own vision of post-humanity. 01:11:06 ⚖️ The conversation moves to the idea that if everyone becomes a "god" through technology, it leads to a power struggle due to lack of common rules, unlike the frameworks that govern human society today. 01:11:48 🧠 The West has had a simplistic view of human reason and rationality, extending even to the theory of nuclear deterrence. 01:12:18 ☮️ Nuclear deterrence has been effective since 1945, but questions arise whether it's due to wisdom or luck. 01:12:46 🌍 Both the West and the Soviets worked to limit nuclear proliferation, but this equilibrium may be destabilized by the situation in Ukraine. 01:13:26 🇺🇦 If Putin gains little from his actions in Ukraine, the temptation may be to escalate the conflict. 01:13:54 💥 Official nuclear doctrine allows for the use of battlefield nuclear weapons in certain circumstances, which would drastically change the global landscape.

I just get the feeling Prof. Gray are falling behind a lot on his knowledge. I don't know if this is due to his high levels of education and assumption that he is right without doing proper analysis and research on these topics. Or that he have fallen victim to the degradation of information passed down by legacy information platforms. Its hard to listen when someone speaks with his authority but misses the mark on multiple occasions on rather pressing topics. I was waiting for John to challenge the talking points and off point takes, but the interjection never came sadly.

Love John Gray!

Excellent interview as usual, however for the record Tucker has only asked Joe & Kamala to be as concerned about American borders as much as they are concerned about Ukraine's borders. Fox Net judging by the amount of American Generals they have on are very anti-putin - Thanx John

Love your show. (Please adjust audio microphone levels to prevent the consistent crackling. Thanks 🙏 👍.)

How can anyone take these talking-heads seriously, when one of them said that he supported Thatcher's policy. I would like him to state which Thatchers policy benefited the ordinary working-class today? One can also ask, philosophically, in which area that the US has shown moral leadership currently which can be an example for the world.

9:06 - has Big Business been gullible about China, or has it been amoral, greedy, and focused on short-term gain? By the way, thank you, John, for this upload. 😃

His mention of Kurzweil reminds me of Jung's archetypes

Great to see a north east scholar out there! Fantastic chat!

Great talk! Thought provoking!

Professor has some good insights from a European point of view. He is right about people not wanting to learn from history, but I think much of that is educational ignorance not intentional necessarily. Regarding the US, I think he misses some things. Republicans are not far right in a Euro sense. Traditional American Republicanism was not isolationist, but had principled involvement. The Democrats under FDR projected that and won, but later Neo-Cons took over the party brought in the old War Party Democratic views. Trump tried to get them out and dull possible wars. He stopped many conflicts, but did not get credit for it. Biden has not made good decisions on anything. He is ill. The Democrats are guilty of senior abuse. Even if you disagree with some of his views, he has some nugget insights, which is about education. John is very good at allowing this conversation. Triangulate from all sources to real knowledge. American Fundamentalism has had a number of stages. The end of the world is traditional Protestant Christian. Augustine also held this view. To keep it simple, his view of how it sorted out was different along the way, but he believed in an end.

Great conversation, but the question of what if Americans hadn’t intervened is not fair. The deal after ww2 was that we didn’t seek power in Europe, and let US be the big brother. I think many Europeans would prefer for us to look after ourselves. The trade of sending our most driven and skilled to work and live in US in exchange for military protection is that great

John, love your interviews. You need to get Gordon Chang and get into it with him on China…

Doesn’t John Gray look like Mr. Wayne Swan?

Inflation is more important to most people in the US than Ukraine. Our politics is fractured beyond belief. We have a whole generation hammered by 2008, the Pandemic, and now the economic effects of Ukraine. Meanwhile billions of dollars are flowing with little debate to a place that, contra Ukrainian propaganda, has little bearing on American, as opposed to Polish or Baltic, security. Ironically, Ukraine actually harms Australian security by diverting our attention from China. And Biden by throwing Western weight around is actually accelerating the change in the current world order. *** Gray just pointed out how things could get worse, then said it couldn't get worse. If Moscow collapses, what's to prevent Russians from selling nuclear weapons to whoever has the cash for whatever the reason. Is that better than Putin?

Short circuit, accidental contact between two points in an electric circuit that have a potential difference

We are so enamoured by rationalism that we are totally blind to the fact that we are only partially rational beings, and some of us are more so than others, and we certainly do not all share the same values. We have a far too benign view of human nature that has become a destructive delusion. John Gray is exactly the antidote we need to our comfortable complacency. I wish his writings would become as popular as 50 Shades of Grey!

Hmm... the guy just contradicted himself. He said the west has short attention span, then said Putin wants to escalate the war... The lesson from Vietnam, Afghan is clear, Putin should just wait it out until the west gets bored and moves on.

Great insite wish more people would listen

A fascinating discussion. On a minor topic, the contrasting prevalence of spiritualism after the first and second world wars, my theory is that astounding new technologies and scientific theories can seem, as has been said, like magic, or can seem to indicate mystical “facts” about the world. The Greeks may have used technically advanced mathematics, geometry and automation to promote religious devotion by impressing the gullible. In the early twentieth century it was x-rays, relativity, quantum physics that made some people think they could pin down “spiritual” phenomena. Today, as the story about the computer simulation of the man’s grandfather suggests, we have another wave of astounding technology that invites mystical fantasies. In the vein, I hope, of John Gray, I see human beings as partly rational and partly irrational. We must always remember that the struggle for truth, common sense and decency doesn’t always progress, and will never end.

A great listen. Lazy and rigorous chat. Not really a conversation but that is what is good about john. He lets his guests speak ... if they can. Good to hear an australian accent among the plethora of voices on all these issues. This is the west as it actually is. This conversation could never take place in china or russia or anywhere else. Not on this truthful and intellectual level. Perhaps this is why liberal democracy will outlast these coming times and troubles.

I can make a list for you to expand your horizon

Words such as 'by all accounts' and 'apparently' strikes me as being tantamount to admitting no actual knowledge!

I have great respect for John Gray's philosophical ideas but I completely reject his understanding of the Russia-Ukraine war, he's opinion no different than what's been parroted on BBC and the rest of the legacy media

36:57 in reference to European military - 'It takes too long to get it up' - that's what Xi said.

Time to invite Peter Hitchens on your channel, this is long overdue.

Amazing interview, first time have gotten a nuanced and deep analysis of the conflict, grateful.

Please make a video on NATO's war on Iraq and Libya.

Of course he made significant gains.

Finally, there is one man knowing what he is talking about. Wow.

excellent , thanks for doing this long interview....

Two great minds...John, if you were in the UK, you'd be an SDP member :)

Strange that Anderson didn’t mention Straw Dogs.

John Gray just confirms the impressions I've gained with all my interactions with philosophers: totally unworldly in that they haven't studied history in toto and can't by the nature of their training in ways of thinking come to any understanding of the world in which they live.

This Professor lost me when he said "Biden Handled Ukraine well'. Seriously, there would be no war if Biden hadn't shown military weakness in Afghanistan. Funny how Putin didn't invade when Trump was president.

This Geordie is Superbious, good guy, respect from a Scot.

I ordered his book Straw Dogs a few days ago hope to read it this weekend.

While wrong, it's not true that non-religious woo comes from religious precedents. Rather, they both come from error, independently. They are the natural result of being an evolved pattern-matching biological being.

Philosophy is in rapid decline and therefore civilization.

Fantastic guest and interview.

Is Professor John Gray Barry Humphries in disguise ?

I can’t believe John has held a position in prestigious Yale university while he can’t even understand that all super military powers need their buffer zones. USA would never tolerate Russia making military alliance with Mexico while for years NATO weapons were just mètres away from Russia border. Ukraine should have stay neutral n do prosperous businesses with both sides. Joining the color revolution sponsored by the West was clearly a deadly mistake. Tragic really.

Russia on road to economic developments thru closer ties with China's economic & manufacturing powerhouse.

Interesting conversation. Didn't agree with some of Gray's points and he seems very 'establishment' in his thinking about such things as 'conspiracy theories' on covid vaccines (shown now to be less 'safe and effective') and the nature of Ukraine and Zelensky (coke-addled and corrupt).

They say you live and you learn, I had no idea that the Russian state was so intertwined with the Church.... that makes things somewhat worse than I had thought for that country, and anyone in opposition/conflict to them, such as Ukraine. The unfortunate truth about heavily religious states is they are not typically led in a compassionate and reasonable manner, historically or currently. The blind faith you are doing right can be used to justify anything in the end.

This guy is the reincarnation of William F. Buckley

Let's go Brandon.

As enlightening as it is to listen to johns perspective, and as a left leaning individual i truly do respect his tragic realism, but i couldnt help but notice what wasnt mentioned in this interview. Is it not obvious that western media is not presenting putins actions in a reasonably nuanced fashion? It has been noted (perhaps by chomsky on his recent interview on yt concerning swedens joining NATO), that putins actions are uniformly characterised by western media spokesmen as "an unprovoked attack on a democratically run sovereign state..." Would the US take no action against mexico if it allowed chinese armaments and weaponry to be deployed close to the state of texas? How can one belittle "postmodern" ideology in the form of "woke" leftism on the one hand, whilst remaining silent or omitting to mention the mediocre functioning of democracys major social institution (the press) for reporting objective facts on the international scene? Dont i as a western citizen get to judge for myself if i want to watch RT to get the russian perspective or not? Did the western press behave entirely objectively (and i might add truthfully) prior to the invasion of iraq twenty years ago?

John Anderson says "We (the West) have got to be realistic about Russia ..." So far the West has been anything but realistic. Its shock and awe sanction has specularly failed. Europe cannot mount even a fake oil embargo, a plan to launder Russian oil via maritime loop holes and Greek tankers allowed to carry. Europe capitulated to Ruble for gas without any credible plan to phase out this gas by winter. War on the ground has gone badly for Ukraine with unconditional surrender of Azov troops in Azovstal. Europe is entering deindustrialisation by RePowerEU energy phased reduction while shift to renewables under increasing stagflation ... Get real about the contribution of Russia's commodities to the West's standard of living and the lack of any full substitute to it.

Человек просто красуется. Знаний мало, одна болтология.

He is calling Putin a Terrorising individual, but seems to completely ignore that the USA fuelled terrorism in Afg and still maintains connections with them. Prof Gray seems to make a lot of sense, but I find it difficult to follow as he still sticks to the idea that one side is more "moral" than the other.

It is bewildering to me that John interviews many people seemingly in order to pontificate about the future and how this or that will impact our future. Or how will this translate? As a type of practicing Christian, John like us all is well able to KNOW how things will pan out. Now whether that is "This is what you will do to yourselves' or "I God, will make this happen' , is of no matter, but the future is well predicted and has been for 2,000 years. And would it not be truer if the interview took the way of "How do you see things fitting in with what has been told to us will happen?" John Gray seems to be a little unsure of his support for Margaret Thatcher and rightly so, as who to my observation only accelerated the decline of Britain to today's third world status..

Americans could loose interest in giving Ukraine $44 billion. The horror!

John Anderson, I continue to find your guests 5 star choices, interesting, informative and heterodox, which makes them intriguing to listen to.

This man literally has no idea what he is talking about. Stuck in his ivory tower, he is completely out of touch and buying into his friends propaganda. His world view is completely warped from reality because of his elitism.