John Verveake, I really appreciate your work. I’d love to see you in dialogues with female voices too. I think it would be very rich.

I am getting more from this conversation than I know how to express. I can't thank either of you enough for the understanding you've provided me in this, and many other videos. Please continue this good work together 🙏

If I knew that becoming an award winning lecturer in the psych department was just expanding on our mushroom talk w the homies,...I'da taken school more serious.

45:44 As you are arriving at the conclusion on plato's notion of beauty, i get these shivers down my spine and i get elevated to just a bit above "the line" as you say. I also have this experience sometimes when listening to profoundly beautiful music, meditation etc. Beauty Soo definately vibing Well done guys, and thank you

So excited that the whole conversation is moving towards aesthetics lately. Thank you. 🙏🏽❤️

Thank you John and Jordan for sharing your Wisdom. Your teachings go deep and open up my Intuitive side. Namaste!

27:54 Morphic fields and Rupert sheldrake and his books on angels. “The Physics of Angels”

Strongly vibing with this one. Incredible conversation.

Pretty sure we are the world and vice versa. The Universe haunts itself through Living constellations of spirit-filled dust. You know, the whole Alan Watts thing. I think that translating these more nuanced, philosophical and open-ended teleologies into the language of our current traditions is more expedient and realistic than creating a scalable religion that’s not a religion. We have to include our history in our future or any project will quickly become doomed by our capacity for… sin. I have a unique Love for Jesus above my lesser heroes and a religious impulse to make my best case for Him. It involves learning from people like Vervaeke and embodying a Christian life that is faithful to my best possible conception of a loving and eternal God. Whose Spirit animates each of us, even though we aren’t completely aware of who we are before we were. That’s the business of the one minding the store. The great I Am, or Brahman. 🤷‍♂️ Anyway, thanks for sharing all of these talks. Jesus loves you, Namaste! 😄❤️🙏

The best one yet. I've listened to all of your conversations with Jordan, most of them several times. This is like the culmination of a 2 year long endeavour, all those jams coming together into an iconic album, the crest of a wave and you rode it beautifully. Succinct, accesible, rich and full yet somehow without shortcuts.. Eternity. John and Jordan thank you.

Thanks Jordan and John!

When I think of objects that exist through relationality, I think of semiotics and how certain things can only be known through the mind processing everything they are not, a negative process. I also think of the idea of the Glass Bead Game, from the Hesse novel, as a way humans make meaning by taking something like the patterns found in a piece of music and searching for repetitions of those patterns in other, sometimes unrelated, locations, creating a greater resonance of this pattern that can only be found through dealing with otherwise contingent and rootless objects or pieces of content. But for a glass bead game, like any practice or tradition, to retain meaning, I wonder if there needs to be a community that continues to show interest in the contingent aspects, the specific genre of music, the language, or religion, for the patterns (or 'non-thingliness') to remain visible. The beads are see-through but still made of solid glass. Makes me think of how magicians talk about how magic becomes real to those willing to take the leap of faith into believing they are not being fooled by the tricks. Only then is a new world opened up. The symbols or parables are like the tricks. They are the training wheels before people can learn to see in 'a non thingly way.' It also makes me think of how poets like Paul Celan searched for invisible universal roots that could be found underneath various languages, hiding beneath the contingency of their actual letters and words which were fragile and subject to change over the course of long periods of time. Searching for something constant. Mircea Eliade has an idea of the myth and sacred time. The myth opens one up to the absolute truth of primordial time. He says one can relive that universal, absolute time through the repeated ritual. In those repeated moments one can rise up from being 'governed by gravity' to being 'governed by levity.' So, despisers of the world seem to be those who become too far caught up in the particularity of their own glass bead game or despair at the interchangeability of their particular parable with any other as a vehicle into 'nonthingliness'.

28:59 the sound of realization

My M. Eckhart book is jiggling with this video

Thank you John, Jordan and everyone of you partaking in this nourishing & psychoactive conversation.

I am so tracking with you guys. I write words and music. In all ways it's a vibe thing. I suggest you take up songwriting, one or both, as it would require even more distillation.

When I listen to your discussions on aesthetics and beauty, it always invokes Kant's 'sublime' for me. In the analytic and positivist philosophical traditions, that portion of Kant's contributions is often overlooked or outright ignored. But it feels to me, in a vibing sort of way, that it has relevance here.

3 minutes in and I can hear Jonn trying to take a ephemeral substance change it into a gossamer thread to weave a tapestry of thought. Almost 36 minutes in and Jordan brings it back into frame. 47 minutes, it sounds like John is describing someone looking in mirror realizing their actually there physically and yet around the edges of the person reality is also surrounding them in the mirror. 58 minutes sounds like your both describing Sisyphus again. Not full thoughts, just bits and pieces. Wonderful discussion, and yes time is short. Peace

What a ride! Thanks for bringing us along.

It's all about going in the zone

I agreed with everything which was said here, but then we come to 47:30 and JG says, "Thinking, yeah I don't know how to think about that, try not to..." Which is interesting because while JV was speaking, the entire time I was thinking in the background, "he is speaking about Thinking right now as that which reconciles the appearances to Reality through more harmonious appearances, and the higher logical harmony is also what we call 'beauty' or 'aesthetic', but I am not sure if he realizes it..." We really need to see how what we are doing now, and what they are doing in that video, is entirely continuous with and of the same logical essence as the Divine Thinking which gives rise to the phenomenal appearances, including aesthetics of all sort (most directly, music). I think it is precisely the implicitly dualistic "view from nowhere", and corresponding naive realism, which allows us to avoid this connection to our own immanent thinking as a concrete reality, even when we are 99.9% way there intellectually. "In thinking, we have that element given us which welds our separate individuality into one whole with the cosmos. In so far as we sense and feel (and also perceive), we are single beings; in so far as we think, we are the all-one being that pervades everything. This is the deeper meaning of our two-sided nature: We see coming into being in us a force complete and absolute in itself, a force which is universal but which we learn to know, not as it issues from the center of the world, but rather at a point in the periphery. Were we to know it at its source, we should understand the whole riddle of the universe the moment we became conscious. But since we stand at a point in the periphery, and find that our own existence is bounded by definite limits, we must explore the region which lies outside our own being with the help of thinking, which projects into us from the universal world existence."

Perfect timing ✌️

40 years in the wilderness because the 10 spies told them there were giants and they were afraid to cross the Jordan. Joshua and Caleb were the 2 spies that said let's go for it.

I’m loving this conversation, but I feel like I missed the distinction between immortality and eternity. I understand immorality but what then is eternity? Is it like the greek word aionos in the new testament?

When listening to this discussion I had apocalyptic trip :D

Will you write a book about your ideas on the meaning crisis?

Eternity could be thought of as not a continuous increase of quantity but of quality.

I was wondering when you would make this connection explicit!

Levity, not Gravity. I usually express this as: Sincere, not Serious. (Seriousness in the way Alan Watts or Jean-Paul Sartre would talk about it)

45 : 35 "It's not the absolute versus the appearance, it's that the notion of the absolute actually includes both" Somewhere in Slovenia, Zizek furiously rubs his nose in unbeknownst sympathy.

Everything from language up is the Metaverse 🖖⛩😃

So the Cartesian split is a useful tool, but we don't want to live there... Great, thanks 👍

"Sojourners" means foreigners. So does "stranger" and "pilgrim." Look up these words in etymology dictionaries. We are not "debating" how American TV writers, journalists and bartenders might use these words.

A modern live Socratic dialogue

I tried participating in the Religion that is Religion. Lo and behold...😅🙏☦️✝️ Simple.

27:00 the definition of Universe. Universe is an adjective, not a noun. A semantic error, thus a category error, which then becomes an ontological error. Universe is the totallity of all interdependent existence, processes and potential, not the box within which is contained the sum total of all "objective, material reality". It's not my opinion, it's the definition of Universe. And one might think that that definition was intentional.

I'm not going to listen because I know they will have come to no conclusion

Pretentious Hall again, yeck.