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THE PROBLEM WITH ARCHETYPES | SpireChats #36 | Slay the Spire

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Jorbs

Jorbs

6 жыл бұрын

Check out data from my Ascension 15 Slay the Spire runs here: docs.google.co...
Archetypes are heuristic simplifications of Slay the Spire's deck building process, and I think that focusing on them robs players of a lot of the beauty of the game. In this video I attempt to explain why.
You can find jorbs shirts and hoodies at: www.bonfire.co...
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Пікірлер: 66
@matthewkaseman7457
@matthewkaseman7457 6 жыл бұрын
24:50 "All these cards are, for the most part pretty good, like it isn't that bad to put most of them in your deck" 8th masterful stab confirmed as still pretty good.
@Drecon84
@Drecon84 6 жыл бұрын
This is probably the most important video on Stay the Spire out there. This is also the region where I've been struggling the most and exactly what I needed to hear to get better at this game.
@FallenMerick
@FallenMerick 5 жыл бұрын
Getting away from the mindset of trying to build specific decks helped me immensely in this game. I know I'm over a year late watching and commenting , but thanks for making this. It's definitely much more effective and enjoyable to go for the dynamic approach.
@Spellweaver5
@Spellweaver5 5 жыл бұрын
I want to thank you for your videos. Just now I was playing an A4 run with Defect who was lucky to get the Unceasing Top in the early game. For the most of my game I was basically living the dream with claw, recycle to dispose of non-zero cost cards, and a small bunch of powers. I couldn't resist the temptation of picking more and more 0-cost cards and cards like double energy to increase consistency and by the start of act 3 I was OTK-ing all the encounters. In fact, even in act 2 I only needed 2 turns to destroy the Champ which was super satisfying. However, then I saw His Majesty, Time Eater. And it struck me that I can't possibly defeat him with this deck. And, if it were before I listened to your points, I'd rather go and try killing him with my dream deck, which would very likely result in my own death. Now I thought about it and realised that it's better to win with something imperfect than lose with something perfect. And then I picked Thunderstrike my next card, something so contrary to the idea of a 0-cost deck that I'd never ever have the bravery to do it before. For those readers who aren't JoINrbs, Thunderstrike is a 3 cost card that does damage for each lightning orb channeled this game. And then it carried me to victory. It dealt like 150 damage when I cast it for the third time. So, thank you so much for making me realise the flaw of the approach I was used to. And yeah, it felt good to actually defeat a Time Eater with a deck built around Unceasing Top.
@gofer123guy
@gofer123guy 3 жыл бұрын
this explains heuristics in a way no other video I found ever did and subsequently explains objective play flawlessly.
@AzureDrag0n1
@AzureDrag0n1 6 жыл бұрын
Yeah my win rate skyrocketed once I abandoned the idea of deck building and instead focused on problem solving. Meaning a thin deck should only be obtained if it solves your immediate serious problems.
@Phagocytosis
@Phagocytosis 6 жыл бұрын
I'm looking forward to the point where I get sufficiently familiar with the elites and the bosses, even the hallway fights for that matter, for each act, so that I can start recognizing which problems even exist for me to think about, so I can do the same thing as well. It shouldn't take that long for me to at least get to know the problems if I pay active attention to them & try to remember.
@russeljimmies3899
@russeljimmies3899 4 жыл бұрын
Vincent Oostelbos any progress?
@FiresplitterSpeedrun
@FiresplitterSpeedrun Жыл бұрын
After playing a lot of custom character mods it has been Hard returning to vanilla StS due to this. So many custom characters are so archetype dependent so if you do NOT think about archetypes and synergy you will have a Hard time winning. This is the video I needed to watch to get back in track :)
@masta182
@masta182 6 жыл бұрын
this one feels like a summary for someone who has watched most of your vids. anyway I want you to know that your vids have helped me a lot in beating A15 regularly. I'm currently on a fake 6 streak (one loss in between) alternating between characters. so far the most important lessons to me have been: pick lots of cards get as much relics as possible when making a desicion always think about the next few big fights and how you can beat them
@herrabanani
@herrabanani 4 жыл бұрын
I'm glad I saw this video when I was new to the game. I have now beaten asc 20 two times with defect :)
@Lewkis01
@Lewkis01 3 жыл бұрын
I'm so glad you made this video. It covers a lot of my own experience from the time I started playing until now (granted it hasn't been that much time, I'm not as hardcore as I think a lot of players are). I started off trying to "style" my decks. I read random posts on Reddit about peoples' runs and how they won. I started thinking, "Ok I wanna try doing a Darkness Defect deck" ... Pretty narrow-minded right? Not a lot of Darkness to deal with, just very powerful. Got wasted. Didn't get the cards I would have needed for it to work. Stuff like that happened for a while until I finally just gave up and started picking cards that fit the need at the time, which I believe is what's at this video's core. You have to have an adaptive mindset because it's impossible to plan your deck from the beginning of the game. If you're going into Act 2 and don't have any AOE your might want to consider taking the next Cleave or Dagger Spray you come across to make life a little easier for yourself.
@jek__
@jek__ 5 жыл бұрын
Watching grandmasters play chess is interesting indeed, but watching learning algorithms play chess is crazy. They will make moves that look like bad moves even to experienced masters of the game, then 15 moves down the line you see why the computer made the bad move earlier, just to set a certain thing into motion. It kinda takes that whole "grandmasters tend to break heuristics" thing to the extreme, where really skilled chess algorithms make moves that directly look bad, but thats just because tiny changes can be so important that bad moves can be good moves when in the right position. Just like slay the spire These videos are really great. Lots of interesting and thought provoking things said in general, and then you effectively bring it back to lessons that apply to slay the spire, quality teaching
@Fj128
@Fj128 6 жыл бұрын
"400 to 600 feet trees" confirmed for secretly being an elf from an alternate reality.
@Phagocytosis
@Phagocytosis 6 жыл бұрын
I was looking for this comment, yes. That is one extreme tree he thought up there.
@GingerGiant247
@GingerGiant247 6 жыл бұрын
Wow! You explained Anchoring much more effectively than my college professor did. Thank you!
@bobhouse9331
@bobhouse9331 3 жыл бұрын
Very interesting,I'm on A17 and can't stop drafting the "best cards", trying to think about the game differently
@mikew3788
@mikew3788 3 жыл бұрын
This is an old video and I’m sure you won’t see this comment. I just want to say thanks for going through a logical approach to the game. You made it worth playing!
@TinyZu
@TinyZu 6 жыл бұрын
Why am I not surprised in the slightest JolNrbs and FilthyRobot hang out?
@Lightja_
@Lightja_ 6 жыл бұрын
Great video, I probably would've spent a little more time talking about packages (mitigation/damage/scaling/etc), but you did a good job of explaining the problem with archetypes. I have a couple of suggestions of videos that could be interesting. First, well-laid plans. There are obvious uses for this card, but I think there is a lot of opportunity to talk about less-obvious uses of well-laid plans. Similar to what you said about blur, it serves to smooth your draws so that you can play cards at the most opportune times, and even with just a starter deck it can be incredibly useful on a fight like triple sentries or lagavulin just so you can use the cards when you need them. Maybe save that one for a bit later though since I feel it'd be a similar application to blur, or maybe you have your own unique things to add on well-laid plans. The other, more ambitious video idea that I would really like to see would be to talk about how to evaluate your deck vs certain elite fights. Say you have a path with 2 elites and no camp fires vs a path with 1 camp fire and you are on 35 HP, it can be very useful to know if you can take those elite fights, and this is probably the part of the game I struggle with the most at this point, I find my runs taking too dangerous paths or paths with not enough rewards. Personally, and I think most would agree, evaluating act 1 elites is a lot easier because most of the time you have a similar deck each time with maybe ~5-7 additional cards. So specifically evaluating act 2 and 3 elites would be very valuable knowledge for me. Act 2 is particularly interesting because sometimes the elite fights can be easier, or at least not as dangerous as the hallway fights, so even though you may evaluate you taking 20 damage on a fight, you might've just taken 15 in a hallway fight. There is a much bigger difference in hallway fights vs elite fights in act 3 in my experience, which makes evaluating them much different too, plus at this point your deck has the most variance between runs. Also, I don't see your VODs for the last few days on twitch, is there a reason for that? I was actually really curious about mercury hourglass, another somewhat interesting topic for a video. It's a very simple relic on the surface, but it's often underestimated and just comparing it to the damage output of other relics could help put it in perspective for a lot of people. I was actually going to go through one of your runs where you had mercury hourglass and count the damage it did, because it was probably a lot, but the video isn't on twitch. Keep up the great work, love the content, especially when you delve into more complex subjects like you did on this video. Relating non-STS-specific ideas to STS helps conceptualize a lot of the problems and their solutions a lot better.
@badassoverlordzetta
@badassoverlordzetta 6 жыл бұрын
Search for Slay the Spire Found a profound life lesson Great content, JolNrbs. ~a shitty haiku.
@kollegeknusprich8110
@kollegeknusprich8110 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for your videos. You have a talent for conveying thoughts on a high level of abstraction in a very accessible way. Listening to you describe your decision making framework helps me structure my thoughts and streamline decision making processes even outside of StS.
@cookies23z
@cookies23z 5 жыл бұрын
I learned after failing several times trying to force a specific vision of my deck doesnt work. however I really enjoy when the chance comes up to have a "refined" deck without sacrificing a lot. Also, I like to have a "package" of a set of cards with strong synergies and still having other things in the deck to deal with problems. I still enjoy my all in decks, even if they arent as good as winning
@cookies23z
@cookies23z 5 жыл бұрын
on the fact that you "try to build a poison deck but dont get anything for the first 8 floors" I get that, which is why I dont go into a run with "I will build this deck" but I go, I would like to get this deck, and if the cards give me diffrent options Ill build other stuff, and if a strategy comes up Ill focus on it a bit (if I like it)
@cookies23z
@cookies23z 5 жыл бұрын
and to add to this, I enjoy your videos Ive seen so far, Ima sub, also I dont really play on ascension 15 so I guess im able to play sub optimal and still have a good winrate
@cookies23z
@cookies23z 5 жыл бұрын
Also about the fact that people will have that uncertainty, I have a lot of experience with deck building with "packages" where a bunch of smaller sets of synergies is ok, so I am relatively ok with branching out my decks (although I admit it is a bit annoying and sometimes hard for me to add that first card to my deck to get some problems out of the way)
@cookies23z
@cookies23z 5 жыл бұрын
YA I love malaise, great card to neutralize an enemy, or at least drop their dmg by a lot. Also lol at the kill quick strat, because I love doing it :)
@elmberq1103
@elmberq1103 6 жыл бұрын
Fascinating! I often find myself thinking about the game in terms of archetypes, but I, like you, actually find the problemsolving aspect of the game the most fun. The reason for achetypes for a player like me is that I haven't played the game nearly as much as you, and with that I lack knowlegde of the problems I'm facing, and archetypes are the only way to guarantee a win. Could you perhaps make video about all the different bosses and elites and where you face them? Where have you heard about the "theory of uncertainty"? Really interesting I must say, so don't be afraid to dwell further into psychology :) Thanks for another great video!
@Mitranim
@Mitranim 6 жыл бұрын
Excellent analysis. My applause, good sir.
@zteeldragon
@zteeldragon 5 жыл бұрын
Thx so much about the idea in this vid, Im so obsessed about creative AI deck and end up really got killed by Awaken one.
@littlezimty
@littlezimty 6 жыл бұрын
Perhaps part of the problem is that a deck-builder, as an archetype, is characterized by having all your options available to you and deciding what the best strategy is. MtG, Dominion, Netrunner, all these games allow you to put whatever cards into your deck you think will give you the best chance to win. You know from the game's outset all the options available to you. StS is unfortunate in that sense. It's like drafting your deck from Pokemon booster packs and you don't know what the next booster will contain.
@PortalFreak1996
@PortalFreak1996 6 жыл бұрын
Except limited is a very popular format in magic, where you built a deck from either 6 boosters that you open, or draft it with (usually) 7 other people who each open three packs, pick one and pass the rest.
@littlezimty
@littlezimty 6 жыл бұрын
Interesting. I didn't realize there was a name for it. Except limited. So yeah, this game is like that then. When you look at the forums or even achievements for the game it doesn't give the except limited vibe in my opinion. Sort of misleading.
@astarothgr
@astarothgr 6 жыл бұрын
This is the good stuff. Great video, deep and logical analysis, the truth!
@BlinkLed
@BlinkLed 6 жыл бұрын
I was actually listening to this while I was playing, and I got a Silent victory (on ascension 0) with 45 cards.
@vackrakristaller
@vackrakristaller 6 жыл бұрын
NetWalkthroughs I once got 3 eggs in act 1 and just decided to always take cards, left all my starter cards in and finished with >50 (using shops)
@1080pUHD4K
@1080pUHD4K 5 жыл бұрын
I am kinda late to the party but i was doing the exact same thing and i finally got my first win with ironclad with 31 cards!
@zenoooooo
@zenoooooo 6 жыл бұрын
Oh dang, I love these videos. Keep em up.
@mikszath90
@mikszath90 4 жыл бұрын
Hi Jorbs, great video, thank you for sharing your thoughts around learning this game, found it really insightful. I`ve just picked this game up, only had maybe 10 runs, 2 I`ve won using the more conventional methods of looking up a few guides for new players/trying to build conventionally good decks, the 2 wins I`ve got were with Ironclad utilising a block build. My question would be, what would you suggest would be the best to improve overall understanding of the game for a new players without resorting to trying to mimic builds and failing if they don`t come together? Thank you in advance, I`m very late to the party but will be sure to go through a lot more of your previous videos.
@Jorbs
@Jorbs 4 жыл бұрын
check out my silent overexplain run, people like that one. or just try stuff and see what works.
@lProN00bl
@lProN00bl 5 жыл бұрын
I wonder how his opinion might have changed with ASC20 and the final boss that really feel like they limit what decks can win.
@FogellofDot
@FogellofDot 4 жыл бұрын
nice video, reminds me of autochess
@dinorore6783
@dinorore6783 6 жыл бұрын
so basically you're saying that we shouldn't just aim for one archetype and should instead keep our options open while at the same time look for cards that help at the current moment even if it doesn't have any synergies later like that catalyst without any poison play.... cool loved the video, keep up the good work
@svenningen
@svenningen 6 жыл бұрын
Gokul Pramod only if that catalyst could solve a problem in the current run you are worried about. You more or less know what enemies you'll face always
@TUX3D0S
@TUX3D0S 6 жыл бұрын
What problem could a catalyst without any poison in your deck solve lol he said to solve problems not put random shit in your deck
@capt_panda_bur
@capt_panda_bur 4 жыл бұрын
Great video so far! I think you could benefit from shortening the video to around 12-15 minutes as you tended to repeat yourself quite a bit. The knowledge is too valuable to be hidden in little nuggets spread thinely across the entire video! Great vid though, definitely subbing for more amazing tips :-)
@Mewseeker
@Mewseeker 6 жыл бұрын
Today's topic remind me of that video where instead of an energy relic, you got Runic Pyramid instead and were like : "Yeah, whatever, it's not great but I'll try to make do with this and make it through the end." XD
@robertgalindo5979
@robertgalindo5979 6 жыл бұрын
Good video. Am a little disappointed this didn't turn out to be a slap down of Jordan Peterson.
@pallingtontheshrike6374
@pallingtontheshrike6374 6 жыл бұрын
but JP is gr8 m8
@IntrusiveThot420
@IntrusiveThot420 6 жыл бұрын
Pallington the Shrike “JP is great” JP talks fast and has no depth to his arguments lmao
@cityfern
@cityfern 6 жыл бұрын
He spends a lot of time in interviews refuting the words attributed to him rather than saying what he actually means
@robertgalindo5979
@robertgalindo5979 6 жыл бұрын
Sure, but that 10% her does say has so much word salad and fallacious arguments in it. His self help is okay but has alot full of evo pych bullshit. His political stances sound like conspiracies. And finally as he tries to justify religious beliefs he sounds like a postmodernist despite rallying against them all of the time.
@IntrusiveThot420
@IntrusiveThot420 6 жыл бұрын
What’s the best way to learn chess, anyway? Simply playing with people better than you? Book/internet reading? Some combination?
@samuelalphabet5360
@samuelalphabet5360 6 жыл бұрын
Warcrimes incarnate A combination of that and watching games. The key is to learn how players better than you think. Watch a pro and take time to be like "now, why would he make this move, and how did it help/hinder him?"
@IntrusiveThot420
@IntrusiveThot420 6 жыл бұрын
Samuel Alphabet sweet, but i barely understand how the pieces move. Should I use the axioms everyone learns to get started, or should I simply try learning everything without them? This goes to the heuristics point in the video. Is it better to start without them or to use them as a starting point
@Ohiobulldog1
@Ohiobulldog1 6 жыл бұрын
Yes, follow the advice given to all beginners, e.g. develop your pieces, castle early, don't hang pieces. As you get better, you'll naturally begin to understand why good chess players follow these guidelines in most situations, and why they stray from them in other situations. At that point, you'll know when to do the same.
@austinwyant2928
@austinwyant2928 6 жыл бұрын
Very interesting
@jussirautiainen7772
@jussirautiainen7772 Жыл бұрын
Why not buy a ruler and measure the height of the tree?
@buingocthientan4373
@buingocthientan4373 6 жыл бұрын
can you upload more game play pls?
@wehavebiscuits
@wehavebiscuits 4 жыл бұрын
Not building archetyoes is better, but not as fun
@alanzhu7053
@alanzhu7053 4 жыл бұрын
Are you a teacher? Sounds like you should be lecturing.
@shookds
@shookds 6 жыл бұрын
I don’t think a discussion about heuristics really fits in this video. I think if anything make its own video, even if it’s 3 minutes long.
@vackrakristaller
@vackrakristaller 6 жыл бұрын
shookds really? I thought it was an elegant encapsulation of the argument before actually addressing details in the rest of the video. Archetypes are heuristics and then they break because you interact with a variable game.
@cruelcumber5317
@cruelcumber5317 4 жыл бұрын
How does a talk about heuristics not fit the video? The video is literally about the heuristics of StS.
@ReAnnieMator
@ReAnnieMator 4 жыл бұрын
Quick recap of the video: if you are deckbuilding enthusiast you are missing a lot of fun and should actually start playing to win, this will be more enjoyable for you. I know you didn't want to sound offensive, but you actually did. You are not wrong about the game, but jesus dude, i'm actually angry at your choice of words.
@Jorbs
@Jorbs 4 жыл бұрын
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