I was clicked baited by Spider-Man, but got this gem instead.

I truly hope the church listens to the yearning within the culture for a return to everything that Christianity once meant to ordinary people. It has spent too long bowing to its own embarrassment and fear of offending people that through the attempt to not be 'weird' or off-putting, it has forgotten the sublime truth and perfect beauty that Christ alone offers.

I choose to believe that my miniscule Twitter activism helped make this interview happen, and not that Jonathan has sufficient reach to get Holland without me.

Holland: "You're Eastern Orthodox, aren't you?" Pageau: *giggles* "yuh"

Holland in the dark and Pageau in bright light? What's the symbolism of that?

Looks like I'll be buying his children's book too! So excited for this conversation!

So glad this is public. I have wanted this conversation for years. I have internalized a lot of both of your work. This is a dream. 17 year old me could have used this...

A Christian psychologist from The States, Dr Richard Beck has written a marvellous book about the devil, demons, etc for the 'disenchanted'. Next year, he'll be releasing a new book on the re-enchantment of the world after secularism. Some here may find that worthwhile based on this conversation.

what started out slow turned into an excellent discussion. christianity is ultimately a revealed religion but any time someone attempts to make an historical or academic analysis of the religion proper or the new testament they cannot help, it seems, but to apply a kind of inductive perspective to it; thus, paul is no longer receiving revelation from christ so much as he's making some kind of intellectual discovery, beginning with a kind of holy insight within from which he has to explore the depths of his own reason and psychology to unravel the final form of the thought process. while these kinds of perspectives can be interesting, so much holy, transformative content is lost by assuming a position where christianity is just another thought system inductively pursued by the mind of man.

"Protect the weak!" That's the heart of christianity. The christian knight is the key.

PVK is compiling his analysis video as we speak :-)

So good! Could have listened for hours more!

Fascinating and beautifully articulate guy, coming from such a different place but converging in so much. Brilliant conversation.

Wow. Amazing interview. Gold content. What a time to be alive.

Dominion is a great book! I learned a lot, and it gave me many new insights. I just started In the Shadow of the Sword, after which I‘ll have read all of Holland’s books so far. Great writer!

Tom Holland and Jordan Peterson should chat.

I'm so glad this exists, as a longtime fan of Holland's books and a new fan of Pageau's. Thanks to both of you!

So good. Loved Holland’s remarks on Bunyan and Chaucer. I recommend Tom Holland’s book on the Persian Wars, “Persian Fire”.

I suggest Tom should read, David Bradshaw - Aristotle East and West. What Tom says at 35 min in was foreseen by Saint Palamas in his debates with Barlaam.

Wow! Two of my favourite thinkers together. How did these worlds align. I pray for Tom to have his eyes opened and his souls longing satisfied. Thank you for this interview Jonathan!

Wow I can't believe you got him to come on, great! Please have him on again and ask him about early Islamic history. He's helps changed a lot of people's minds about the traditional Islamic narrative.

Ooo now this is a cool collaboration. Timely conversation. Thank you both.

I think the lack of appeal of secular humanism is also demonstrated by the life story of Leo Tolstoy. He rejected the divine aspects of Christ, but embraced the moral teachings of Christ and aimed to frame those moral teachings in a secular humanist context. He also turned it into a movement and developed a following dedicated to his teachings on non-violence. However, his following quickly dissipated and I do think it's because his teachings lacked a central myth holding his movement together. What's even more interesting is that among the people who were inspired by Tolstoy are Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. They found his teachings on non-violence very appealing, but reframed them in a religious context, for Gandhi a Hindu context and for MLK a Christian context. And it's exactly as Tom said, this led to near universal acceptance of MLK's civil rights movement and is still admired today, while almost nobody remembers that Tolstoy did more than just write novels.

Not every bastard in the street is the illegitimate son of the King, despite what his Mother tells him. Not every Revolutionary who sees his pillage as inspired by Christ is walking a Christian ethos.

Poor tom, I think he was a bit out of his depth with what Jonathan was wanting to pull him into lol. Still just a little early in his religious journey, as he sort of admitted in the middle. Lovely conversation though!

Absolutely riveting. I read Dominion a while ago, its importance cannot be overstated. Tom and Johnathan, thank you.

Great discussion, wonderful book and now looking forward to the PVK commentary! When JBP is able I would love to hear a discussion with all three of you!

I like the twinkle in Tom's eye as he talks about the Marquis de Sade

Loved this. Man I wish Tom had written about the orthodox church! Him not mentioning it in Dominion was kind of the only (minor) letdown i got from an otherwise beautiful book.

Would love to hear you guys do this again sometime. I think theres a lot you guys could talk about and this felt more like an extended introduction to each others ideas.

Fantastic conversation, thank you. Good to know there are more and more people remebering this 'Grand Pattern'. Now we need someone to succesfully articulate it / live it. But that is gonna be tough.

Beautiful discussion, thank you.

looking forward to this discussion!

I've been looking forward to this. YAY!

Dear Tom.... Get a camera and a mic!! And I can't get enough of listening to him, Jonathan and conversations like this! Although I never heard Jonathan talk so little (relatively) in a video ;)

Thanks Tom and Jonathan .

23:07 Or maybe it's us who are not certain what St Paul is about

34:30 Interestingly enough, St. Gregory Palamas prophesied this exact thing that Tom mentions from Dostoevsky. Latin Christianity did collapse into atheism.

Lovely, thank you most gentle men.

Wonderful just wonderful, even sublime

The affable Tom is seemingly,through truly fabulous erudition ,leading himself and many others back ...

Tom Holland is a true Heavyweight Champ. Thanks for this exhibition!

We all need a permanent seminar adding N. N. Taleb.

The pattern of fascism is very interesting. If Merkel drew from the parable of the good Samaritan, then Hitler and other post-revolutionary dictators often drew from the parable of Christ separating the sheep and the goats. They supplant this to race, nation, sexuality, ideology instead of faith and works. Christ the judge is also not 'of the world', but He came into it. Likewise Napoleon, Hitler, and Stalin were all born outside, or on the border of, the nations they judged and ruled. I think Jonathan discussed this already in a Q&A.

GREAT VIDEO !!!

Thanks

I've read most (not all) of Holland's book to date, and loved them all. This was a fabulous discussion. Jonathan Pageau and Tom Holland? Wow. Seriously, where else can you get content like this?

Time to re-read dominion!

Wow, Spidey really let himself go...

I’ve been waiting with baited breath for this one

5⭐️ Reading Tom’s Excellent book now. Re lack of spiritual power in the church today and H Potter filling the void 😞check out the other Tom book - NT Wrights book The Day the Revolution Began - Reconsidering the Meaning of Jesus Crucifixion even the first 100 pages. Both Toms have been in conversation together on Unbelievable’s podcast. Thank you SO much for this!

I was hoping for Spidey

Wonderful stuff

Love listening to Tom

The story of Jesus is so simple, people find it too difficult to just do what Jesus said to do. He said FOLLOW ME . Too simple for educated people. It’s hard to love unlovable people, it is much easier to live your Christian life within a church society where everyone appreciates the same values as yourself. Jesus asks us to share our faith with people who don’t want Him. I feel Jesus will confront others in their need through their life. I cannot be responsible for others, because Christ will do the transformation as we live our lives following Him. I have enjoyed listening to this conversation. I am a Christian of over forty years and still cry when I take the body and blood of Christ. Thank you. .

Here from a Chris Williamson interview with Louise Perry, who recommended Holland's book.

Love it!

Loved you in Spider Man I'll let myself out...

Christ never told the poor to rise up in bloody revolution. The French and Russian revolutions have nothing to do with the Christian Faith but rather a distortion of, perversion of, and misunderstanding of the Christian Faith, which is Holy Orthodoxy. That being said, I love Tom Holland's book Persian Fire and The Rubicon. Amazing reads. My favorite history books ever.

I hope pageau knows there are real angels and devils not just abstractions of places. They are individual beings, pure spirit of a higher order than us

41:32-41:50 interesting that Tom Holland sees this so clearly. I would wager that this is why orthodox Christianity is making a comeback.

Don Quichote and Dulcinea is the best example how the knight fights for the weak, funny knights of the present world.

Nice.

I'm coming to this conversation late, but i wonder if Pageau has read Heiser's Unseen Realm.

"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first" (2 Thessalonians 2:3). He then proceeds to explain this "falling away" in greater detail. Those interested in the signs of the end times often take note of a warning given by Paul to the Thessalonians, speaking about the return of Jesus Christ to earth.

In anglo tales knights convert people by recognising the eggs and cabbish, not stones..., heat by the food, as recognising the food of his mother...

"i finished the *BOOK A WEEK AGO* ..." Appreciate this, Jonathan!

It’s a fantastic book. He’s a great writer.

I love listening to Tom... I always feel like the smoldering kindling pile of nihilism within me might bust into flames if I listen to him too long tho lol

What is the name of the Norman church in London Tom refers to at 48:34

Not sure if you would read this Tom or Jonathan, but I wanted to comment on Tom's point at 23:10 of Paul's dramatic monologues. I attend a Messianic Jewish Yeshiva and your response reminded me of my professors (Dr. John Fischer; who's also the President of the UMJC) analysis though with a somewhat different twist. He said they are akin to Rabbinic Responsa. Remember fellas, Paul was a Pharisee and was reaching out to synagogues and Gentiles in the Diaspora. While that isn't quite a dramatic monologue, it does have similarity, and I think is more contextually correct.

Interesting Synchronicity... Trump is having issues with Dominion Voting Systems causing glitches in the 2020 presidential election, at the very same time this video was published. Gotta love this symbolic universe

Thanks for this! I have a question on your theory that we are seeing the opposites pull apart... I get the Social Justice movement == de-incarnation. That makes sense. But where do we find its opposite today? Which group hosts the opposing pole, the "will-to-power rising up"?

What's with the IDW's fascination with Hellenism? How come supposed Christians are so entralled with guys like this that are so fascinated by the pantheon?

Lol I thought this was about the voting software

🙏🏼

You should get Tim O'Neill on as well

My only complaint here was that it was too short...I wish Jonathan & Tom brought up Judaism as it relates to stories and iconography and despite the fact it has a aversion to overt imagery it certainly has stood the test of time and hasn't been (de)sacred'ized ...esp among the orthodox & ultra orthodox. Maybe for another program. Love the channel.

Bon appetit!

Awesome glad your two meet. Good choice to invite and to accept guys

Best video on youtube.

Came for Spiderman, stayed for Tom Holland

Truly, a deeper reading of the crucifixion would show that the focus is not around Christ's perceived economy; as opposed to the status of the Sanhedron, but God's mercy.

26:16 he's been reading NT Wright - pretty sure that depth charge idea about Paul is his.

Great talk. I am a big fan of Tom Holland. His books are great, especially Persian Fire and The Forge of Christendom. Highly recommend them.

Can’t wait for Tom to write something on Orthodoxy!

Jonathan, when will you write your own book?

Spider-sense was tingling...

Great! Thank you 😇

Ha, just saw the fb post! haha

im so fkn jealous of jonathans hair

Tom, please go visit Alwyn at Calvary Chapel London! B & C Col 3:1-4

Peter Parker looks so different in real life 😊

I want Tom Holland, Jordan Peterson, Douglas Murray, Jonathan Pageau to become the “Celebrity Christians” to debate the Celebrity Atheists in a series of panel discussions.

Rene Girard has a lot to say about the paradox that the decline of Christianity stems from the success of its worldview - i.e., its concern for victims in the end is turned against it; or that the story of Christianity has from the beginning been desacralizing the world.

El Cid is maur and the sward in his heart doesn't kill him

35:00 to 38:20

👍

He spoke with Spodermon???

The view that the pagan gods are real, but that they're demons, is the original Christian belief about pagan gods. The belief that the pagan gods simply "don't exist", whatever that means, is a modern one.