Hey Josh! Appreciate the vid :) I'd tend to agree that in most cases, hyping a game in development can raise expectations to unattainable heights and ultimately negatively impact the impression upon release for a game. With that being said though, I would caveat, there is a clear distinction between hype and excitement. Players should feel comfortable in expressing their excitement for a game or company *based* on solid reasons. Whether that excitement is for things like; graphics, designs, gameplay, philosophy, customer service, community interaction, transparency etc. When projects get this type of support and feedback from fans it helps the development by motivating the developers and dare I say, the industry in a few ways. Consumers aka players have a very powerful voice when it comes to expressing their content or discontent with the direction of a genre, or project. And it's important to use that voice so companies can navigate better when catering gaming experiences for their audiences. So in summary, tempering expectations can be a good thing, but don't be afraid to express your excitement or support for projects that you feel are doing a good job in specific areas. Cheers!

Never forget Ultima online originally had a fully functioning animal ecology. No one ever seen it because the players killed them all.

I remember when No Man's Sky was set to release, and a guy commented on a trailer for the game, that the game would be so good that it would change society as we know it. He seemed convinced that the game would not only be the greatest game ever made, but that it would be so revolutionary that human reality would not be the same again.

The problem I have with the concept of giving players so much influence is that so many players are dicks. So many communities for MMOs are so incredibly toxic. If you really have players shaping the world to an extent as claimed, they will fuck it up. I'm sure of it.

Lost hope for Ashes the moment I found out it would depend on players to build the world. It'll be fun for the first couple months, then it'll devolve into griefing and top guild dominance like basically every game of it's type.

There's a graveyard full of The-Last-MMO-You'll-Ever-Play

There once was this game a friend got all excited about, it also had a massive hype train, a hugh sucess kickstarter, a really amazing trailer in wich it claimed to be the revival of a almost dead genre, almost 11 years later, Star Citizen is still a hot mess.

Two years later, 7 years into development, it's still NOT in Beta and they're looking for numerous engineers. Maybe it's for the final crunch, dunno. It doesn't look good. The game itself looks..clunky.

Honestly, Ive played so many bad MMOs throughout the years that I'd be totally stoked if this is just a "good" game. I don't need groundbreaking. Good is enough for me.

Basically there is a huge difference between saying "It's GOING to be good" and "I HOPE it will be good".

Had a guy try to pitch me this game while i was working at a gas station in 2018

Like grandma always said: Expect the worst, hope for the best.

I'm excited for Ashes. I was scared when this popped up "Oh no, an exposé piece that actually reveals all this as a scam" but no, very grounded hype control. I'm not excited for the MMO second coming of christ. I'm just excited for Ashes of Creation. Thank you for this, hope more people see it.

Normal people: So Josh, how many tabs do you need open in your browser at any given time? Josh: Yes.

It's like meeting your hero or building up an idea of someone in your mind and being disappointed when you meet them or date them

First time I heard about this and the consequence section makes me wonder. I wonder how much consequence there can be without spoiling it for future players. If eventually down the line, the majority of the players errupt the vulcano and the landscape changes, then new players will already see this without doing the quest. Or one server becomes more hostile than others... same with the Node system. While interesting, wouldn't the beginner areas after a while become massive cities even for new players instead of the struggle to building it? I just can't really get behind it. There can't be a consequence system without affecting the future player base

Can't be disappointed if you always expect the worst.

2021 consumer in a nutshell: expecting 11/10, as soon as possible and despite emphasisng the need to socialize, will in fact play mostly alone. Developing an MMO has never been more difficult.

AoC fans : "Ashes of Creation will be the savior of MMO" Also AoC fans : "Ashes of Creation made for specific type of MMO players" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I feel like pvp in games that let you steal progress from other players is a very niche thing, like it might sound cool on paper being able to build your own home and gather materials and resources while competing against other players while being able to shape the world around you but in reality, most players just end up getting dominated and frustrated as their progress is either wiped out or stolen. There might be a large amount of players out there that could appreciate this kind of gameplay but its a very niche crowd, not nearly big enough to sustain an entire mmo. Just look at RUST, it's the perfect example, it has all the things a pvp player might want but none of it is permanent unless your playing in a special server set to retain player progression and most aren't designed that way. In mmo's I feel like most people playing would prefer permanent progression and it's the "most people" that keep your mmo's alive not the niche few

>grounded discussion >mmo fans Pick one

As a major MMO fan i've learned through experience to never board the hype train, i'm glad that the MMO scene seems to be getting some quality additions, but i'm gonna keep it at that and check out the game whenever it releases.

I want this to be good... but as some ones this played endless MMOs I know how META works.... having that many moving variables will likely end up in a ton of bugs or game abuse for the sake of efficiency over the developers' hopes for the player base. It sounds like the game will start off great, and as soon as the hardcore players start shaping the meta it will break apart pretty quickly.

The hype train only has one destination: disappointment. That’s why I never ride it anymore

"The first year of No Man's Sky" is all the description you need to understand why you should not hype up games before release.

I love how Josh is so optimistic about the whole genre in general, but also very rational about it. One can be very enthousiast and also very down to earth too ! I find it super cool !

Here's what I wonder: Is this game going to get a Crowbcat video on it months after release? All the hype from the devs (and The Lazy Peon, that was where I first heard about this game and his hype for it was insulting to anyone's intelligence) about the game just raises my suspicions at this point.

The long and short of it is most MMORPG gamers are in their 30's, I like to imagine most of us have jobs and life commitments. MMORPG's are not what we played when we were going to school and college, we had all the time in the world, all the hours to burn and laptops/gaming pc's were cutting edge equipment for us all to get on board and join these adventures. Now we get home from work, we are tired, we are hungry, the cat needs feeding, your bin needs taking out and before you know it, it's 9pm and you need to go to bed soon because you're doing the exact same day again tomorrow. We have got to realise that games need to move from this old school style of being able to invest all your time to it and more to, okay I can sacrifice a few hours to play and crack on. Honestly, at this stage most MMORPG games are supported by whales and that is it. I speak personally here, I have not enough time in the world to commit. I cannot commit to these weird time based events in game where I first need to prepare for said event then join it. I can't do wars on castles, I cant do massive 60v60 PvP battles; I CAN log in, smash a few quests, do a bit of story content, craft some stuff, grind a little stuff and take part in some group content that doesnt require me to travel for 20 minutes and hope to find a group. Gaming has changed, our expectations need to change to reflect it.

Everyone's forgetting the launch day mmo curse nothings going to work and everyone on the hype train is gonna hop right off unfortunately

Honestly, ever since TB passed, you and the Spiffing Brit have filled the hole in my life that only a snarky Brit could. Thank you for the excellent content

Here we are 2 years later xD

Hey there, just recently found your channel and so far have been enjoying it very much. But I have to say I like the BSG decor in the background. Your background is like a Easter egg of golden gems of entertainment.

I have the same fears for Hytale. The hype is too great. The game may never reach 50% of the games expectations

"People are hyping this up so much that when it releases, it will be disappointing, through no fault of its own" Nintendo fans: "First time?"

Speaking of GW2, I remember the community (and the game devs, mind you) hyping up how there's so many tiny minigames you could play to immerse yourself in the world. When the game released, there was only 1.

I just realized Josh saying his actual name sounds more like he’s saying “Josh Dry Face” than when he’s actually saying “Josh Dry Face”.

The more I watch your stuff the more I am impressed with your voice word choice and cadence. You really understand your craft, and speak in a way that drives the point while drawing in the listener. Truly one of the most professional content creators I have watched. Keep up the fantastic work.

It's the Half-Life 3 effect. Hype can literally kill a game.

I love watching older videos as the supporters screen grows lol

All the tabs, pins, and notifications you have open make me want to pull my hair out

I have saved this video, in two years I will revisit it and see how fresh it sounds.

This guy has experienced the glory days of mmo and the downfall. He gets it. Lets all cross our fingers that we can get some games that help rebuild our favorite genre!

2023 and the game still hasn't released

It looks cool. I've caught some of the streams and it feels like an evolution of Guild Wars 2, which is where I make my home since its release on Steam. I'll definitely give it a shot when it comes out, and since it won't be here for a long time, I should have enough time to finish GW2 by then.

All of the AoC update emails they send me are just advertising their overpriced cosmetic bundles, trying to bait the purchase with FOMO limited cosmetics. Not at all hype for this. The art design is bland and boring, the combat is absolutely dogshit, and all of their vague promises are nowhere to be seen in actual gameplay. "FOMO" = Fear of missing out. Classic marketing sales strategy.

I learned the hard way not to preorder games and never will again. I'm looking at you Fallout 76.

the second I heard about this one, and got hyped, I also remembered one other game that got hyped up to hell and I even got insanely hyped for too.... this feels like it could become the MMORPG version of Cyberpunk2077

2 years late. Will say, beyond the deep character creation, my will to play this game is quite dead.

"MMORPG" and "Small Independent Studio" go together about as well as two things that don't go together at all.

Just wanted to clarify since one of my videos was mentioned here that my video wasn't at all about me hyping the game, just outlining that due to Peon's video and all the massive content creators(tim, summit, shroud, asmon) reacting to it turned it into the most hyped mmorpg. The message within that video (from what I remember) wasn't about me hyping it as I don't believe it will be anywhere near as good as people think it will but rather the reason it's hyped and why we shouldn't be. I don't believe it will live up to the hype at all and have been telling people to stop hyping the game for over a year now as well as telling people not to buy it. Especially considering I've had multiple conversations with people breaking the NDA and the news from inside the game so far is not even remotely inspiring me with confidence. Great video though man

Josh, I very much appreciate the time and effort you put into your videos. Highly informative and very insightful. I felt you were talking directly to me at 9:15. I have to fully agree, even though I enjoyed EQ back in 2000s, I don't know that I would have that kind of patience again in 2022. I too have shifted to enjoy solo content in an MMORPG. Please keep the videos coming. You're one of the better reviewers out there!

"Expectation management is the key to crisis control." ~My dad

After cyberpunk 2077 everything this man is saying is true to me and I haven't hyped a game since.

12:14 I had a similar experience with this and Crowfall a few weeks ago. I was invited to their beta, and I'd heard a lot of really unflattering things about the game, so I went in basically expecting a steaming pile of shit. And while what I found didn't really engage *ME* as a player with my own tastes and preferences with my MMOs, I actually found that it was better than I feared. I expected a barely playable, buggy mess, but it really seemed to be fairly well put together. It's still not a game I'm going to really play, but my point is, my expectations were very low, and I was pleasantly surprised.

Imagine being a new player after there is an endgame community with all the resources and power... it's darksouls' world, but you never get stronger and perpetually stuck in PVP purgatory, getting your ass kicked.

Whenever i hear the announcements or hype about new MMO's i just remember the massive hype i used to have for Archeage in... 2010 maybe, at some point between 2010 and 2013 at least. I think i may have tried it at some point as a f2p but if i did, nothing about it stuck with me. But i can still remember the hype, the idea of building your own stuff, making your own ship to sail the seas.

After Cyberpunk I will never be hyped again. Looks cool, is interesting, I will probably play it and try it. If i love it - great! If im disappointed, well thats life :)

I cannot stop seeing how out of proportion characters are in the enviroment. The smallest flower is bigger than a head. Even in town, wooden fences are almost as tall as them.

I've never even heard of this game, but given my MANY years of play on EQ (from release to 2004, then on a retro server from 2013 to 2016), I TRULY look forward to designers from that era utilizing modern tools to create something EQ-esque.

Keep your expectations so low that you doubt it will even release

What you forget mentioning is that the immense hype for these games is fueled and elevated to new levels by stream media content creators and the so called gaming press. Hype and exaggerated click-bait titles brings in clicks and viewers. Many people believe the hype created artificially by these people , because it's partly the only source of information about a game that they use. Don't put this all on the consumers, content creators are the biggest problem, the way I see it.

I need a t-shirt with the phrase "Don't board the hype train" on it.

Fantastic video, really enjoy that you give everything such deep consideration. You made a good point when you spoke about expecting a 10 and being disappointed with a 9. But I do wish you hadn't made that same point 5 more times in the video. Still really enjoyed this :)

I've heard so much of this before. I remember a game called Shadowbane. It was hyped and pushed as a gamed that let you 'really change the world'. Players built communities and in that game, they really did. It required a kind of 'seed' to start and you actually chose buildings to add and built them. Other players could attack your settlements and they had a kind of siege system that gave players time to collect to defend their town... it sounded awesome. I also had a kind of hardcore PvP and that was the achilles heel. It killed a lot of the player base so no matter what their settlement system was supposed to evolve into, it didn't get the grow into anything. PvP guilds controlled the non-newbie zones and as soon as you were kicked out of the newbie nest, you got wasted. Who wants to play a game like that? Ashes of Creation might be good, we'll see, I suppose, but no matter what they claim, what they deliver will be more important. I remember another game, called Horizons that claimed that when you crafted a sword, you would have 'So many customization options that you will have literally Millions of possible combinations for unique looks' and then they delivered a game with Dozens of unique loos. They had cut back almost all of those design options when 'optimizing' the graphics. It turns out that millions of options actually slowed down video rendering.. who knew? In fact, while that game actually delivered on many promises by the end, what they were hyped to provide wasn't there at release. They let you play a Dragon PC and that was awesome... in concept. They actually let you play a baby dragon at release and that sucked. You couldn't grow up because they hadn't finished building that content yet. So you had thousands of baby dragons whishing they could fly... I know, I was one of them. Like me, most of the player base bailed on the game. A few die hard playes actually stuck around until the content arrived but it was too late, the train had left the station for other games. Horizons did eventually let you play a dragon who could grow up and fly, rebuild the crumbling ruins of the 'old world' and establish thriving communities... filled with shosts become the players had long gove by then and only a few people ever got to see it. One of my old friends stuck with it and told me stories of the guilds who joined together to rebuild a few old cities, with dragons flying in huge loads of resources for crafters to use as materials for the building process. It sounded cool... too bad it was years too late when it came.

Best to not overhype a game before release, it'll never match up to expectations if you expect it to be the coming of Christ for video games. No Man's Sky release state is a good recent example

ashes of hopes and dreams of gamers.

I probably won’t get a reply but if possible what are your thoughts on monster hunter watched a lot of your reviews and that’s my favorite game so I’m just genuinely curious

The things that worry me about this game is that they seem to be taking a tremendous amount of time on each block: A1, A2. The game is already years in the making and expecting it to cook for another 3 to 4 years. The other issue I have is Intrepid Studios looks like they have enough money to finish this game for release, but they are asking for large one time payments to test their game Alpha - Beta. If they don't show a specific year in which they plan to release soon, I'm going to start thinking it's another Star Citizen.

AoC: "I am not the messiah" Starved players: "He is the messiah!" Preordered to support the devs. Not really gona stay on the updates just one day il recieve I fun email "hey welcome to the beta" (I hope).

When did Josh became such a magazine's cover playboy? I envy his handsomeness!

My golden rule for modern game development: Assume that game developers are lying, until proven otherwise by what they produce.

Have to say that I wasn't even particularly impressed when I saw the promotional video. Building your own stuff from tiny ship to massive stations, I have known in EVE Online and I have seen where it can lead to. It is not in and of itself a bad thing, but it is ultimately very niche, since it scales with player activity level and interactions. So, it is nothing for casual players. I can't see it revolutionizing the genre. It will have its audience, potentially, but the pressure for success is much higher than it was MMOs was just for nerds without a life.

2:20 the amount of tabs open YEESH

I remember some months ago a youtuber made a video of how great Ashes of Creation was and how it harkened back to the OG ever quest and the only thing that ran through my mind was, "Why on Gods green earth would I ever want to play the OG ever quest in 2021?

Yeah, that's true, most mmorpgs I play, I always do so alone, I can't play with others because I don't have the time to, so dungeon diving, completing events and some other things I only have little time to do then and it's usually during hours where most people aren't playing or have already finished doing their daily activities online.

Love all these dunks and criticisms are absolutely holding up 2 years later. They got nothing of substance.

This ones gonna be spicy boys

I am absolutely on the hype train. It all just seems so good, but I recognize how irresponsible I'm being.

This video is honestly pretty good life advice in general. One of the best feelings you can have is not having any expectations whatsoever and therefore having a solid chance to get pleasantly surprised.

I simply never board “hype trains” because their likelihood to careen off the tracks and crash into a nearby lake - that is, completely fail to meet expectations simply because they’re unrealistic - is far, far too high.

It just occurred to me after watching a bunch of JSH videos, I can't think of a single time I've ever disagreed with him. His opinion is always well thought out and level headed. The planet needs more of this.

I’m hopeful for Ashes...can’t wait to hear your take tho

So, a year and a half later, has this thing even released yet? Where is it? I can't find it on Steam.

Ty for mentioning Wildstar by the way. I’m still sad it failed x.x

My two cents... Overhyping a game by the community can actually damage the game and make it seem worse when it comes out. Just look at cyberpunk... if there were no so much hype.. yes it would come out with problems.. but maybe devs would posponed it more.. and there would not be so much disapointment from the players involved. Looking forward to the video :D

Not going to lie, this game looks about as interesting as a mayonnaise sandwich made of wonderbread.

I'd love to share what i remember voicing my opinion on. This studio went on massive parade about how amazing their mmorpg was and the finished state it was getting towards. Years and years ago. Then released a battleroyal which was, .. ok? and a supposed castle sieging game that was all on the same engine and using assets that were already made due to the near finished state that the mmorpg apparently was at. They then started using their battleroyal to push their supposed mmorpg that had no evidence that even existed and promised that if you played their battleroyal you'd unlock special items for the MMORPG when it launched. Then took their battle royal down when no one liked it and i don't think many even got near the castle sieging simulator. Then we hear nothing for about two years and then we see "alpha footage" of an early EARLY! look on what they've made so far for the MMORPG that apparently was so well and near completed... With no information passed through at all then we had the alpha and now everyone is so happy this game is coming regardless of the near scam this almost became? They clearly had nothing to show for an MMO but clearly used all their money for the battleroyal and then had to scrap it when they released people were asking questions about a MMO that people had backed prior then went to work to build it as fast as they could to show people not to lose faith, hence why the alpha looked as horrible as it did... and the playable section that you had to "BUY" into... was so bad, that even most players believe that even a dude learning how to use a graphics engine for the first time built the landscape. It's probably not going to be what it should have been because they released all these other companies had used scammy ways to make money from backers and are now all being sued and losing their money. This team decided they had to do something to show so they didn't get sued also...

you have an insane amount of tabs open my boy

I hear people saying that they want that old school, social mmo experience but I just think that’s nostalgia and that it’s coming from the minority of vocal, hardcore mmo fans.

While I agree overhype is almost always a negative, the fact that the dev team is so communicative and open to change is a veeeeeery good sign.

It may be just me, but I think that developers also often forget the importance of the world itself. If I don't find the world that I am playing in compelling, it just won't pull me in. There are many factors, but I think that the reason for WoW's and LOTRO's successes and continued existance is that they are based on interesting worlds and lore that many people are fans of or familiar with, and it leads to a greater connection. The moment I saw that the races were just generic names hiding generic descriptions, my hype died down a bit for Ashes of Creation...

does this have a part 2?

Cant wait for this. Everone seems to be blinded by ashes but in the most recent stream the combat still looked horrendously clunky.. Edit: Not saying being hyped is bad, just keep around some healthy scepticism. We'll see if It's good post alpha.

People: this a wow killer. Me: i heard this before, and it never does

I would kill for the Pool of Radiance box in the backdrop. One of the first RPG I ever played...

How bizarre to have found this video literally one day before its one year anniversary. I wonder if AoC has made enough progress for Josh to make another vid on this -- had never heard of it until this and now I must say that my curiosity is piqued!

I remember when it was rift, tera, arch age, black desert, bless All of them got hyped too much and couldn’t meet expectations

I had forgotten I was on full window mode for YT, and kept clicking on the message bell to read those 8 messages before I realised they were Josh's xD

Hey Josh how about making a new video about ashes considering the progress up to now?

I just finished and was looking for an update video, and I'm surprised it still hasn't come out.