Knife knowledge/knife basics - You got a burr… So what?

Рет қаралды 2,412

Күн бұрын

We teach you, when sharpening, to raise a burr. You get used to it. You think your job is done, but it has only just begun. Removing metal is the task, but it is not complete until you can feel the sharpness of the apex. Several times, while sharpening this knife, I thought the job got done. I was wrong. I consulted a friend. He said you're gonna have to sharpen that one three or four times. That didn't seem correct. He was right. Every time I felt the metal coming off, I was trained to think that I had done my job. The first stone really does all the work. The knife should be sharp when you're done with the first stone. The other stones polish and they remove the metal that is the wire metal edge hanging on. Do not mistake this feeling. Use your three finger technique and let the tips of your fingers on the apex tell you if you have achieved your goal. The knife is not sharp unless you can tell that it is sharp from just touching it. You can see that I sharpened the knife and got a polished edge, but yet, it did not cut well. I did eventually get this knife sharp (to a 47 on the BESS). I look forward to going back and re-sharpening some other knives and getting the apex closer to sharp before I move on in my progression. Whether you use whetstones, a belt sander or any other type of knife sharpening device you need to feel the apex be razor sharp before you move onto the next process.
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Пікірлер: 55

@Yupppi 3 ай бұрын

Well this just confirms what I've learned from some people who share their sharpening knowledge. That if you can't make the knife sharp and to your liking on 1000 grit stone, "hair-whittling sharp", you shouldn't even consider getting finer grit stones. Because it means your skill is lacking, that's where you create the geometry and sharpness, the rest are for refining and polishing, as you stated. And it's been a learning curve, but limiting myself to 1000 grit stone has made me more demanding on myself and caused me to finally become a bit better at sharpening. People talk a lot about higher grits in terms of different applications and have philosophical statements about them, but the physics is that you start with the ~1000 grit and if you can't make a good item with that, you have some lessons to practice and don't need to think about finer grits and different stones. But I also learned the importance of keeping the stone flat and consistent angle repeatedly until the results are there. It can be weird to keep on doing the same thing and seeing seemingly lot of material removed on the stone when you can't see what's happening on the edge, but it is for a reason. Sometimes you're just doing a different part of the process than you think you are. I was definitely guilty of having slighlty inconsistent angles, too hasty with the movement, too hasty to jump to the next stone. Part of it was learning to feel the burr, that's an important thing to learn as well, not saying that, but it misleads you so much if you're not aware of the rest of the details in the process. Until I learned this lesson, keep working on the same stone until you have results, and be slow (if needed) and consistent, that's what does the magic.

@EndoftheBlock7224 Жыл бұрын

I sharpen a LOT of super-steel HRC 61-66 knives and found out first hand how difficult they are to sharpen. Once sharp, I love them as they go and go BUT I had the same issues with the burr. I also found out quickly that course diamond was the ONLY way to start the process because the knives I use from Vancil Messer Werks are amazingly hard super steel knives.

@nadm Жыл бұрын

Thank you Sara, I’ll have to look into it.

@scotpelletier7672 Жыл бұрын

Thank you for another great video. It’s great to see you talk about the problems your having in sharpaning. If someone with your experience can still run into issues and have something to learn, then the rest of us should probably not be so hard on ourselves!

@nadm Жыл бұрын

I got a little too relaxed, and I had to have a reality check. So I wanted to share it.

@PanopticMotion Жыл бұрын

I own a knife made of 64HRC Magnacut steel, and I find it effortless to sharpen using the Shapton Glass HR stones, I take it up to 16k grit. Surprisingly, it attains a similar level of sharpness as knives made of blue #2 and SG2 steel, without any difficulties. It retains its sharpness for a significantly longer duration compared to my other knives.

@nadm Жыл бұрын

The American knife makers were very adamant that the American steel and the new steals are gonna be better. The Japanese at the Japanese have not moved away to these types of steel. I’m interested in getting into them and then seeing what is up

@austenhatch3285 Жыл бұрын

This is exactly what I’ve just recently discovered as well. My current goal is perfecting the burr removal. Subbed. Keep up good work. Stay sharp. *Fyi* you can apex on like 220 grit and remove burr/strop and result is very sharp

@nadm Жыл бұрын

Nice!!! Thank you!!

@austenhatch3285 Жыл бұрын

@@nadm don’t forget to always run your edge across the stone a few times to remove that old edge before you sharpen. That way you’re working with fresh steel!

@robertdavis171 Жыл бұрын

@@austenhatch3285 Never thought of that.

@mikafoxx2717 2 ай бұрын

@@austenhatch3285both ways work. Cliff stamp did that then sharpen without even making a burr in the first place, in that case you want fresh steel. If you sharpen to a burr then remove, youce already removed more steel than nessesary to apex it, and so your burr is the only old steel left.

@sharpwhits0167 8 ай бұрын

Gunny is a good dude.

@nadm 8 ай бұрын

Yes, he is

@Ro_9 Жыл бұрын

A sharpening video, but what you say applies to any other activity. And to anyone. Merci :)

@nadm Жыл бұрын

Thank you.

@jiahaotan696 Жыл бұрын

Maybe the way the knife was used led to a greater area of steel fatigue behind the edge. So, more steel than usual (the usual being just enough to form an apex per side) had to be ground off in order to expose new unfatigued steel that could give a good edge. Plus, it was dull AF and hence more metal had to be taken off than usual in order to form an apex. As in, the centre was not yet touched even though a burr already formed. I'm still not sure that you need to deburr and get an amazing edge every single stone because that'll be such a waste of time. I just roughly deburr and make sure both sides are equal (if sharpening conventionally) and really only properly deburr and strop on/after the final stone. Then again, I have no bess tester, so I might be completely wrong there.

@nadm Жыл бұрын

Exactly. I don’t think people understand that we really did have to remove a lot of metal to finally get an Apex. It was very easy to feel metal shavings coming off the edge of the blade and it just gave me the illusion that I had done the job.

@jiahaotan696 Жыл бұрын

@@nadm Welcome to knife thinning... Yes, it's a PITA...

@sharpfactory3705 Жыл бұрын

Keep us updated on this nice knife, if i sharpen for customers with knifes of good hard steel i always make sure that a knife is sharp right from the coarse stone and even without strop then i go to the finer stone with very very light pressure again burr reduction and the next stone and so on then i use the strop, that really helps to get a better sharper edge.

@nadm Жыл бұрын

I ended up Sharpening The Knife four times. I got it to the score of 47. I had to return the knife to Scott Gunn. We met him at the Blade show. It was very interesting and I ended up using diamond stones to do the brunt of the work

@Mr.pink_ Жыл бұрын

Great video

@nadm Жыл бұрын

Thank you

@Alex25CoB Жыл бұрын

That was very intersting indeed. I have made the experience, like you said, that setting the apex on the first stone is THE most important step in sharpening. That could be a 220, 400 or a 1k, but i think the edge has to be already sharp and bitey, without the burr, before you can refine it with finer stones. Removing the burr perfectly remains my constant practice each time i sharpen knives and believe it to be the most difficutlt but crucial part of sharpening - would you agree? Not only is it dependant on your skill but steel type, heat tratment etc. I would love to see you sharpen the magnacut❤ Also Greg, you really seem to be in good shape man👍💪

@nadm Жыл бұрын

Thanks buddy. I did end up Sharpening The Knife. I got it to a 47. It belongs to Scott Gunn so I gave it back. It was definitely an interesting experience. I will purchase my own in the future. It took four sharpenings to get it to where I was going. I’m interested in this type of steel may be in a culinary piece.

@robertdavis171 Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the info. Your shows usually make me think you are a god, and I am an inept boob. I feel better now and can't wait to see the follow up.

@nadm Жыл бұрын

No, sir! I am still learning. I keep working on my craft and it took a long time to get here. I still have a lot of other steals to work with, and I’m glad to have access to some of the best people.

@ronmccarty7537 Жыл бұрын

"You guys" cannot even be used as a generic term anymore? Because everybody is afraid of offending everybody else? And if you said guys and gals I'm sure there would be something wrong with that also! And then if you said folks that would be offensive to some other group. this is getting out of hand.

@nadm Жыл бұрын

Right!?!?

@elevationmoto6208 Жыл бұрын

Perhaps "life forms" would be acceptable to all humans and also any (other) domestic animals enjoying these fine videos. But "you guys" rolls off the tongue nicely and sounds friendly.

@paulcunningham3029 Жыл бұрын

Great thoughts most relevant to some “modern” steels. As I have often thought - it depends. It depends on how much time one devotes to sharpening any one knife. If it’s my own, and the knife is a specialty use tool, I will likely spend an hour or more working and reworking the edge. And I have found that feeling how the metal “succumbs” to the whetstone is sometimes better than seeing too! It has a high frequency “scrape” to begin, then “bites” with a lower frequency even sound when the bevel is at the “right” angle and is consistent along the edge and in both sides. This is best felt when the bevel is being set with the lower grit whetstone. If it’s for a couple of chefs who trust me with their working tools, I may just get them sharp. How sharp is sharp enough? It depends… These tools need to go back to their owners ASAP, and they often take a beating! But I learned something today based on your experience. Thanks!

@nadm Жыл бұрын

Scott Gunn sent me the night and he made it down. Lol but I didn’t really expect to have to do so much Denny. That’s why I came up with the video because I felt to be metal hanging off the edge and just thought I was done. It actually took three or four times doing it before it finally received a BESS score of 47. Then we had to bring it back.

@MichaelE.Douroux Жыл бұрын

I've got a 210 gyuto in MagnaCut from Meglio knives. As you know, MagnaCut is the rage in the folding/fixed blade communities but it's also a great steel for the kitchen. When they first started to roll it out there were a lot of questions about the right heat treat. Seems like most people now think 63-64 is the right HRC.

@nadm Жыл бұрын

We’re going to interview them here at the Blade show. I do think that that’s a particular knife. I want to purchase in the future. I’m very interested in that one.

@MichaelE.Douroux Жыл бұрын

@@nadm I saw since I purchased mine (a real slicer) they've added other Japanese styles. Double check what HRC they're running on their MagnaCut. Since I checked a while back it looks like they've gone all in on Magna. Have fun at Blade!

@nadm Жыл бұрын

@@MichaelE.Douroux we got the knife. We’ll have fun when we get home. We had a blast. One more day of shooting tomorrow.

@Alistair_Spence Жыл бұрын

Great video, I appreciate your honesty here. Btw, can you recommend a good knife discussion forum? From time to time you make reference to "the knife forums" in your videos. I'd be interested to know a good one to become a member of. Thanks.

@nadm Жыл бұрын

I’m a member of a lot of them on Facebook forums. You can go into any one of them and search my name and see if I’m a member. I don’t have anyone that I don’t like.

@Alistair_Spence Жыл бұрын

@@nadm Ah, ok, I don't do the Facebook thing. Thanks though, I'll dig around and see what I can find. Cheers!

@blggtavus Жыл бұрын

So how do you deburr in this case? Edge leading following by some edge-trailing strokes and strop on loaded leather? Do you incorporate jointing technique in your deburring process?

@nadm Жыл бұрын

I do exactly what you said in your first question but we now have Hap Stanley from Nano hone coming to the house to show you the jointing technique

@Dominochaney 7 ай бұрын

Should I get a new burr on every stone?

@nadm 4 ай бұрын

I used to but not anymore. Nothing above the sharpening stones which stop at 2000 grit. I just do polishing strokes on everything about 2000.

@l26wang Жыл бұрын

7:33 I am not sure what the message is. Are you saying the steel is not totally uniform, therefore you need to sharpen back the steel layers until you get a sharp edge to the feel? Or are you saying, you can create a UNIFORM burr on both sides off the first stone, but the apex can still be all over the place. Like some tilting left some tilting right. And you can't detect it because a huge burr is present. So you have to deburr and judge the apex by 3 finger test? If this is true, then you should also do the same test with subsequent stones to make sore your refinement steps hasn't messed up the apex right? So this is suggesting you SHOULD DEBURR AFTER EACH STONE? That contravenes the conclusion from the previous "deburr after every stone video" right?

@nadm Жыл бұрын

Sorry for the confusion. Basically you need to thin the knife. Whenever you look at the knife and you see that has had an edge, you can start to remove metal and receive a burr. Once you feel the metal shavings off the edge of the Blade, you can possibly think that you have done what you needed to do to create an Apex. Just because you feel the metal burr does not mean that you have done everything that you need to do to create the Apex and have a sharp edge. I was reminding you that the burr is a misnomer. That you need to feel the edge and the Apex, which is the edge with your fingers. And doing so you can move on. I ended up Sharpening this knife several times before I got a BESS score of 47.

@l26wang Жыл бұрын

@@nadm Ah so with each sharpening you did some more thinning?

@nadm Жыл бұрын

@@l26wang that’s basically what ended up happening. We didn’t mean to Senes. We thought we could put an edge. We ended up realizing that we had to keep removing metal before we got a sharp so…

@154cm00 Жыл бұрын

Hey you sound like barrywhite😮

@nadm Жыл бұрын

I do, and that is my natural voice. Thank you I'm a contra bass.

@dadadadave100 Жыл бұрын

Aloha Greg

@nadm Жыл бұрын

Hello my friend!

@larryjohnson3581 Жыл бұрын

Do you have Larrins new book?

@nadm Жыл бұрын

I’m still reading his first one, so no I do not have a new one. His dad is here.

@stuartdavenport2952 Жыл бұрын

A few things to say, Greg. First, thanks again for putting the time and effort into making videos. I know that isn't easy. Second, this idea of being so afraid of offending woman by saying "guys", IMHO is taking this stuff too far. I don't know of any woman who would be offended, and if they are, that's their issue. This nonsense about worrying if you're going to offend someone has to stop. And I'm not pointing the finger at you or your wife, but at society in general. This crap needs to stop and children need to Grow up. Now here is something that I MUST get you to quit saying....."molecular structure". Steel does not contain molecules AT ALL. It is an atomic structure with the atoms arranged like a crystal lattice. There are no molecules in steel and there is no molecular structure. A bit nit picky, but still. A few things about the Spyderco mule, and knives that are brand new, don't have an edge yet. If care is not taken to either completely eliminate decarb during HT, or it was not completely ground out post HT, that can easily cause the issue you were having. But I know Spyderco is pretty good about making sure there is no decarb, as I am pretty sure they use a vaccum HT oven, or argon purged anyway. Another thing I have learned.....don't apex at that super coarse range of 120. When I have a knife just completed and it's time to sharpen, I will use the 120 grit stones but I won't apex with them. I take it almost there, and then apex on the 400 or whatever is next in my progression. If I accidentally apex with 120 grit stones, I will actually slightly dull the knife again, just like you do when you want to dull a knife but not quite as aggressive. Then apex on the next stone, 400 or whatever. Magnacut is great steel. I harden it to 63HRC and it's an excellent performer. It has about the same wear resistance as CPM 4V and is VERY VERY stainless. It is way more stainless than ZDP189 with only half the chromium!

@nadm Жыл бұрын

I wasn’t worried about my wife being offended. She’s not one of those people. We just want to make sure that the women are included because we have found that we are starting to get women viewers. I agree with you that it all Hass to stop but I was definitely trying to make sure that I don’t get it. I have it so I was more cracking myself. As far as the other you are correct that it is a crystalline structure. I learned more about that this particular blade show in some classes. It seem like an easier way to make the statement at the time. Yes it’s Peggy but I understand that the knife world is picky. I do understand your comment about leaving some room to remove metal on different stones and not getting the Apex on the course is gritstone. I don’t think I normally would’ve started that low. This particular knife was made Gold from Scott Gunn. He had actually sharpened it before so it was not factory stock from them. He had sharpened it before and then he put it on a belt sander and made it doll. He was going to ship it to someone else, and then he turned around and shipped it to me. We finally got a score of 47 on the BESS. SO WE DID ACHIEVE OUR GOAL. I HAD TO RETURN THE KNIFE BACK TO SCOTT AT THE BLADE SHOW. SUPER HAPPY WITH THE RESULTS. BASICALLY JUST NEEDED TO THIN THE NIGHT. I JUST KNOW THAT IT HAD HAD THE RESEMBLANCE OF AN EDGE BEFORE I WORKED ON IT, AND I JUST TOOK IT FOR GRANTED THAT WHEN I FELT THE METAL DANGLING OFF THE EDGE THAT I WAS DONE. THAT’S MORE THE POINT OF THE VIDEO WAS THE KNIFE SHOULD REALLY BE SHARP BEFORE YOU MOVE ON. I did not mean to capitalize everything. I accidentally held the button I was dictating.