Watching this and my recent episodes, I am SERIOUSLY wishing I had a teleprompter. If anyone wants to be super generous and help take Lady K Sailing to the next level, the cheapest option seems to be the D T2 Teleprompter for a little over $100 and it would be AMAZING!!! www.amazon.ca/hz/wishlist/ls/HGZDOPX6ZVUZ?ref_=wl_share

Hope everyone watches the whole video for its great info! Any IP before the year 2000ish should get new chainplates AND new water and holding tanks. Many have already had these fixes/updates/upgrades done and the listing usually says so. We chose not to deal with that at all, because we could do so budget-wise. For a lower-budget option, and older IP is an awesome choice if you make sure the plates and tanks are done. ANY make/model with interior plates requires maintenance regularly (bedding). We absolutely LOVE our 2005 Island Packet 370 and are very often the only ones out on the water because she takes heavy wind like a boss, when that same wind keeps the Beneteaus at the dock. The IP is incredibly rock solid, which I'll take over winning races any day. We chartered a Beneteau in the Caribbean and were laughing at how early we had to reef when the wind speed was increasing. If you want a cheap boat that can't handle heavy wind and with interiors of particle board and veneer, buy a Beneteau. You can still have fun sailing it!

I purchased my 1990 Island Packet in 2018. Yes I knew the chainplates needed to be replaced with 316L and the factory had guys at the marina replacing the chainplates that week. No problem, and she is basically just like a brand new boat, other than all the upgraded electronics. There are few other brands I would consider.

Hi Tim (from the South China Sea! a day out of Subic Bay. Stick that pin in your fan map.) That $18,000 number is interesting. In many cases it might be a "Well it's time to sell the boat" number. Not so much, 'let's dump this on the next owner,' but just the last straw in a fading sailing career (age mostly, divorce, kids grown up...) as in, Sure $18k is doable.... but what'll the next $18k be? Factored in buying such a boat isn't being burned. If the potential owner is aware it's just a factor. (How many great boats were purchased as 'needs work,' or as salvage and the new owner(s) had the sweat equity to turn a problem into a boat they might not have been able to afford. I can immediately think of Expedition Evans, David Shih, Parlay Revival, Sailing Trieteia, there's a long list. Just these four KZfaqrs wound up with amazing boats mostly for sweat equity. Two Lagoons! a Beneteau and a 'real' boat an Allberg, but now all solid.) I think the two factors are 1. What will have to be done? and what will it cost? but critically 2. Who's going to do the work? Is this something we can DIY or do we need professionals? And is there anyone in our area? And when can they do it?

BTW 304L is made for improved weldability and has less Carbon. It is not stronger or more corrosion resitance. 316 adds Moly for corrosion resistance but still suffers from crevice corrosion ( just replaced all my shackles after 10 years due to corrosion of the pins). an Alpha phase Titanium would work but the old Naval bronze would too. Retired Mechanical Engineer and Materials Scientist

Very Well Done. Not only is this good insight into buying smart, you could save a life with this information. Great Video.

As usual your research is impeccable. Very informative episode.

Owned a 1986 IP 38 that we bought in 2009. Had a refit done in 2015 and made the decision at that point because of all the commotion to have the chainplates replaced. When they were removed, the old ones they looked as good as new with nary a sign of corrosion. What are you gonna do with that point though? I remember being somewhat perturbed at all the hysteria. But yes, the biggest problem is that they are glass them and you can’t inspect them. It was a fantastic boat otherwise and safely took us places. It was nowhere near as slow as the reputation, but maybe that was just our setup (asymmetrical on the top down, furler for light air.) And it’s true, we were out and comfortable when it was gnarly, and all the other production boats stuck in the harbor.

You educate and entertain. Well done

From Jerry Swartz at IPY: The question of how likely there is chainplate corrosion on the Island Packets is dependent on both the material used and the maintenance of the sealant under the chainplate covers. There is really no way to determine how well the sealant has been maintained over the years so the only clue available is the material. The material is not dependent on the model or model year but on the time when it was upgraded. Before early 1995, the chainplates were built using 304 stainless. From early 1995 to early 1999 they were built using 304L, which is a more corrosion resistant grade. From early 1999 to present they are built with 316L, the best of the three grades. Over the years, various improvements to the installation procedure, such as eliminating a fiberglass cover over the chainplates, so as to allow any water that gets in to drain, were implemented. At one point, IP started having the builder of the chainplates anneal the metal as part of the manufacturing process. The gray area in all this is that when the material changes were made, IP did not keep track of the hull numbers that got the improved material and there was no guarantee that parts on the shelf were rotated. Sometimes two or more models had the same design and some of the new parts could have been used up while some old parts were still on the shelf. Going from 316 to 316L was an improvement but not as dramatic as going from 304 to 316. Having said that, there is no way to check the integrity of the chainplates without removing them so if you do that you may as well replace them. Keep in mind that with poor chainplate cover maintenance, even 316L can corrode. It just takes more time.

Wow - watched so many videos on island packet and this issue has n it come up. Good information. Saving my pennies for a boat when I retire. Island packet is top on the list.

A great deal of info. Keep up the good work

Having served i n the Royal Navy inthe uk. I know about stainles steel and other material at sea.. it sets up electro acid action corrosion. Therw are ways to offset this, one by fitting sacrificial diodes to the offended area you just replace the diodes not the unit. Another is to put an electric low level charge through tge hull, eithe the whole hull or offending areas, this is expensive. This occurs when alloyslike stainless steel and aluminium come i contact with ferrus metal like mild steel and bave contact with sea water. Hope it helps

A scholarly presentation.

Great video. I think the reality is that all stainless on any boat that lives in salt water becomes suspect after 15 years. The Island Packets are way stronger than most although perhaps not as strong as people might think if they use displacement as a guide because they use concrete not lead as ballast. Ie lead lower has greater righting moment than concrete. So you have use more weight to achieve same result. I have disassembled many stainless bolts especially and found deep black fissure electrolytic corrosion. And there may not be rust streaks. For me the answer is simple. My boat relies on being able to sail off a lee shore in bad conditions. Check the chainplates and renew anything that's critical.

I owned an early 90s Island Packet and kept it for… 18 years! Yep, it was the longest relationship of my life. :) As you mentioned, the safety and quality aspects were my primary purchase decision factors. When I sold her late last year, the chain plates were certainly a focus of the buyer. Unfortunately, there is no way to inspect the chain plates without opening up the boat. Proper maintenance of the bedding was essential. Keeping good records of all that maintenance is what helped alleviate the concern.

Really exceptional episode! I like learning about good and bad of various boat brands. I see it as an opportunity to just know more and be a better educated buyer/viewer/dreamer.

The Beneteau you featured was my friend’s Martin’s boat in Grenada. 👍

I still love the IP. Still on my to buy list

A machine shop will do that for a fraction of the price. 316 will still get crevice corrosion, a lot of people are switching to titanium as it doesn't suffer from this.

Love these video's Tim. As a new sailor myself this type of information is beyond priceless. Your delivery is always spot on. Keep up the great work! I'm really looking forward to getting my Hunter 23 in the water for a full season this year; I only bought it last year and only got a couple weeks sailing in.

Excellent and thoughtful video! We previously owned a 1994 IP35, Colin and his crew at Mack Yacht Services replaced our chainplates and did a fantastic job. The new 316L chainplates they are putting in are more robust than the old plates that came out, so those new plates are likely good for another 20-25 years. The new glassing technique is also more secure and doesn't completely encapsulate the plates in fiberglass, so it addresses the issues that came up from the plates being "oxygen starved" as well as trapping salt water if the sealant had failed. Personally, I think the latter point was the bigger cause for premature failure than the oxidation issues, and the later designs of IP's allowed for water to flush, so my guess is IP would agree. I think the only criticism(probably the wrong word) I would have for this video is, unless you are talking bronze or titanium, no chainplate is a "forever" chainplate. If you are looking at a boat from the 80's or 90 and even the early 2000's you should 100% be interested in what the condition of the chainplates as they are past their serviceable life unless they have been replaced. The late great Brian Toss recommended replacing chainplates, if stainless steel, every 8-10 years when you replace the rest of the rig, and if I had a boat with bolted on plates, I would head that caution. He also recommends pulling and inspected the plates annually... So there is that to consider. If someone is interested in buying an IP, they should seriously consider your recommendation to negotiate the cost of replacement into the purchase price. If the seller doesn't want to talk, and unless the boat is severely under market, they should walk away! There are plenty of IP's on the market and the price of these boats used should fully consider the difficulty of maintaining their rig. Love your videos, keep em coming!

Hi Tim. Just wanted to say thanks for all the great content you guys put up. It’s very helpful. I’ll be requesting a consultation soon to buy my next cruiser. Probably about 30 days. I’ll also be dropping something in your Patreon to support all the great videos you guys put up. Thanks again.

Great analysis! My wife and I have an older Island Packet and the chainplates have always been something that's in the back of our mind

You are correct about the chain plates. We had a guy come into our yacht club with broken chain plates...broke at deck level from " out of sight" The boat was "play to live sanblas". Talk to the owner....we put chain plates on outer hull. We did them all. He still sails it. Also told him to put companionway doors in as well when at sea. He later got in a storm...boat did well and I got an email. A green one rolled into the cockpit and he had his doors in...no issue, it drained... The new chain plates never failed. Those were my idea.

Very solid advice. The external comment is what I was waiting for. Get better access for inspection, safety on the side decks for crew and possibly better geometry.

Good vid. We were in the market for a iP31, event putting an offer on one. However our offer included the cost of redoing the chainplates. Unfortunately the sellers are in denial about the problem. In the end we bought a Caliber. Sooo happy we did.

Seems like a lot of Boat Brokers I've come across have limited experience and yet want to advise on offshore sailing. Maybe they spent a couple years cruising in the Caribbean but never crossed an ocean or have any boat building experience. Buying a boat can be a minefield for the ill-advised

Stainless steel has to be in contact with air, because that gives it an oxide coating that protects it. Cracks too small to let air in when they are wet, propagate because there is no oxide layer, and it just keeps rusting until it breaks.

Excluding the chainplate problem (move them outboard) - the thing I prefer about the IPs for extended cruising is their full keels - sooner or later most cruisers hit something - and the grids of the Beneteau/Jeanneau type of boats prove VERY vulnerable in this regard. Also, the weight of the IPs may make them slower and less nimble than the Beneteau's, however, the IP's comfort motion at sea is far better and so is its Capsize Rating - it is just a safer boat if things get nasty in the Indian Ocean. The real problem is COST, though one may retrieve some of that big difference when selling the boat at some point in the future.

Hey. This helped a lot. Looked @ a '87(?) IP Catamaran 35' a couple week back. Now to go back & scrutinize those chain-plates & other concerns brought to m'attention. Thanks & fair winds...

I looked at Island Packets and love them and I tried to buy one with for sure chain plate corrosion, the owners poo pooed the chain plate issue and held firm on their price. I was going to go with the outer hull plates as it seems to make less of a mess and (my thought) you are drilling through that extra thick fiberglass covering the original chain plates giving you a great base to bolt to. IMHO.

I think it’s great you talked about something negative on a particular brand . It’s good to talk about which boats have certain issues and save a lot of heartache for some people. Well done another great episode well done 👏

Replace chainplates with NiAl Bronze. Even 316L is susceptible to corrosion where the chainplate passes through the deck. Wet with salt water and oxygen poor. Removing the cabinetry is not that difficult, removing GRP encapsulation even easier. The GRP should NOT be replaced, and the cabinetry reinstalled with screws so that the chainplate can be inspected. The bronze will NEVER corrode, but you do want to check for water ingress every season. Water ingress is more or less guaranteed. Since the chainplate passes through the deck, and the deck is probably cored, this presents a potentially much more serious problem, wet core. When this has been fixed (it can be fixed) the core around the chainplate should be replaced with thickened epoxy.

Words of wisdom from this guy....last time, this time and every time. Cudos!

That was awesome information. Thank you.

I have a good friend that just did his chain plates. He's spent about 3k for all the materials. After getting done he said it's worth the 15k to have someone else do it. Alot of work and labor.

Thanks for revealing this issue.

Really good advice. Thanks

Very informative. Thanks!

A very fair assessment 👍

Once I replaced glassed in chainplates on Passport 40. They were all cracked which was not visible from outside. It required demo and rebuilding part of interior. A few weeks of work for what would take a day if the boat would have had external chainplates.

Wish you good luck on your refit and your many voyages.

Awesome to see the little boat again. As much as I the free range living, I also really miss the free range sailing. I actually don't know how this one slipped past me. I really thought I'd seen them all. I think I need to put some time aside & check to see if there's any other that I may have missed 👍. SV Kiwi Lady Opua Bay of islands New Zealand 👍

My 1973 Dufour has 316 chainplates, 304 would be udeless as it is not salt water resistant, a 304 chainplate would leave streaks of rust on the hull.

Thanks for a well balanced presentation of the issue. I own a 1988 IP38 and have sailed her many thousands of miles. I'm going to switch to external chainplates - the condition of the original internal chainplates is unknowable. I don't have the comfort level that I used to in 40+ kt winds that the boat is not going to have a problem.

Replacing encapsulated chainplates sounds pretty complex. I'm curious how they do it. And I assume you don't end up with new but encapsulated chainplates. But then the question is how it's different than the original (where they are placed, what it looks like from the interior, whether it interrupts any of the existing interior woodwork, etc). New external chainplates make sense. Sounds like it would involve less tearing apart of the boat.

always good information here! Subscribed! Say hi To Brazil!

Love the new channel..

Buyer beware, you've got to do your due diligence when buying any make of boat.

I read an article, a couple of years ago about replacing chainplates with Titanium. Although sea conditions seem to require a specific alloy.

Excellent...bravo, bello!

I'm a fan of external chainplates on heavy cruising boats. Island packet is a solid boat, but why they hold their value so well when they still have their own individual issues is a mystery to me. Island packet owners are all kinda different. Like when you go to redo the running rigging all lines must be original colors, it pains them to upgrade to better blocks or clutches. Not financially mind you, then it wont be in original condition...... WT...... To this day ive met one IP owner that I saw eye to eye with of course he lost that boat during ian and bought a Hinterholler. Cool old man he's 82 and about to refit his lost count of them sailboat and still can. Cheers for the insight Guy

good info

The Cruisernet crowd went over this a few years back. Replace the chainplates with Titanium ones, expensive yes, ~$10Kfor a small one, but NO corrosion. Then you can give the damned boat to the grandchildren.

nice video, good info

very informative video with so much to take in but maybe not quite as balanced. so to try to address this please see the The statement below which was written in 2022 Keep in mind, however, that the failure rate of even the oldest chainplates is still very low (less than 2%) so an immediate call for replacement may be unnecessary for well-maintained, lightly sailed vessels. But if you are headed off in an older model for blue water adventures, new chainplates are cheap insurance. Hope this helps! Bill Bolin, President Island Packet Ancestry, Inc.

very good to know !!!!!

Great info Tim.

Sailing project Atticus changed all theirs , good info for potential purchasers, Jordan is pretty handy though

Elke boot of schip heeft plus en minpunten,het gaat om onderhoud en kennis om veilig te varen. Ben altijd dankbaar voor goede raad ❤. Good luck sailor 🎉

IP's through 1998 have a known chain plate issue. At that time it was addressed. If you are considering buying a 25 year old boat, it is one of the many, many things you will need to get checked out in a survey. As with any other 25 year old boat.

Chainplates on the outside *press into* the hull, in the inside they are *pulled out* of it.

On any cape dory, you can lift the boat off the ground with only using the bow and aft chainplates

Great Video. the IP's are amazing boats I have a friend that has one and owned it for many years. He races with me on my C&C 99. twice a week. I am not much of a cruiser at the moment. We may do some sailing in the Bahamas and BVI in a year or two. as we get ready to retire. Then I would consider either a Catalina 320, 380 or a 42 or a Beneteau 361, 381 or 411. Budget will dictate what I purchase. I have no plan on living on the boat 100%. doing a trip for a month or two twice a year would be great. Thanks for sharing I have been following you for many years on and off. Work and responsibilities of life sometimes get in the way. Safe Sailing.

The Island Packet SP Cruiser is my fav.

Why not install external chain plates and just re-rig to those.

Tony & Susan here, Great info

I had an IP35 from 1989. The previous owner replaced the chaingplates with through-bolted external chainplates that was so strong that they saved the mast even in Cat5 hurricane Ian. We lost the boat and it partially sunk, but the mast stayed up. The other issues are the tanks that often corrode through and the old gearboxes. Great boats overall.

I am watching your videos ust frequently and found that I learn something new and / or hear something that challenges my previous opinions. Truth be told: Many times I disagree with at least some of your points and you will have a particularly hard time to convince me that Hunters are good boats but having said this: I very much appreciate your format, it forces me to (really) listen and reflect on the subject at hand. For that you deserve kudos. Regarding the intro to this Island Packet reel: Shannon "never changed the recipe" either as far as I can tell. My boat neighbor owns an older IP 34, probably from the 90ies and she sure holds up extremely well cosmetically but he also had all kind of problems with the electric systems and even a rudder issue that put a stop to a planned voyage from Rock Hall, MD to Florida at Norfolk, VA... I am not certain if he ever checked on the chainplates but after your explanation I will talk about it with him. Bottom line: Continue doing what you do, it makes one think.

Discussing Stainless Steel there's NO sort being long term suitable to the marine environment, not a single one. There are reasons why insurances require stainless fittings on the rigg to be exchanged after 20 years, no matter what type of Stainless was used. Hot dip galvanized mild steel is probably more suitable than any type of Stainless as galvanized steel shows corrosion directly and stainless can have many types of corrosion some of them not even visible until the part breaks. And these specific types of corrosion are often to be found on parts above the waterline with some hidden surfaces like press fittings on turnbuckles or chainplates with screw holes and a back side to the hull. As soon as corrosion is visible outside on stainless it's time to change. If I think about how many rusty shrouds are out there...

Used Aircraft Sales are no different. As technology changed and things aged "We" learned to be smarter about important aspects. Thx LK

Thanks for this. I always wondered if you could move the chainplates outboard with out hurting anything.

Thanks

1986 bayfield 36 owner here. But we looked at the island packets too. Chain plates aren't terribly expensive, we changed all of ours just last year. I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to buy an IP but you have to price in this known issue. Love the channels. If I can ever bring myself to part with my B36 I'll hire you for a consult. 😉

Good to know. Thanks. BTW, the biggest reason for moving chainplates inboard is, as boats got beamier, moving them inboard narrowed the sheeting angle. Also creating outboard chainplates for the IP is a fairly DIY job for a hands on cruiser that does most of their own maintenance. And for much less than 13-18 thousand!

Cheers.

Another great video on another great set of boats! My dad was quite fond of Puerto Rico sailboats. Any thoughts on them?

I think comfort 30 is just fine for everything, and if you want a sporty boat for a daytime competition i recomend Fareast 28er

Nice video

Know of two other Island Packets which had the same issue. One had a failure while under sail.

Excellent video. I have been watching you since you started out with your girlfriend. LOL I know that feeling I started out sailing with my girlfriend 20 years my junior now she's married with the baby LOL I have always been a fan of Island packets, tartans and swans. That's probably all I would consider. I have never owned a sailboat I have always been a power boater however I've always gone for quality Bertram Tiara Viking. When you take the chief route you end up paying in more ways than one. Again love your videos keep it going! Steve Naples Florida

Yeah, Mack has right now a six month waiting list for chainplate replacement on IP.. BTW, 316L is not Stronger than 304. Totally the opposite.. less carbon content on 316L means less corrosion but come with a price of a less stronger steel..

Having dealt with several boats over the years (NE USA) and the Caribbean, I had noticed what seemed to be a lot of problems associated with stainless steel in many applications. I didn’t know why and thought maybe it had been treated “wrong” … overstressed or somehow abused … or faulty manufacturing … it never occurred to me to consider that it might be the material itself failing.

I would go with external chainplates. Any time.

You can’t, or at least shouldn’t, use external chain plates on an IP. The hull layup in that area is not designed for those point loads. The glassed in unit chain plated are glassed in with long unidirectional glass strands / fibers that distribute the loads over a very large area. This from the engineers at IP and verified by a very knowledgeable and experienced fiberglass tradesman who has done the job. It’s a big job and worth the cost given the problem.

Ok, so I met the current owner of IP at this years St. Petersburg boat show. I told him I was interested in an IP 27. He told me to replace the chain plates will be a little north of $15000. Even for a 30 year old 27.

I'll never forget passing an Island Packet during the Harvest Moon Regatta in the Gulf of Mexico. It was a terrible windy night and the Packet was on her ear, showing us her keel. Love your vids. Going to over to checkout and sub your new channel. 👍🏼#231.

Have you ever seen a Mark Ellis designed Bruckmann 50 (mk2) ? Canadian made. I grew up sailing a Niagara 35 and it was fantastic. Wife and I are looking at a blue water boat to retire on in 18 years from now (I'm sure everything will be much much different by then!) and I'm feeling like a pilothouse would be ideal for what we'll be wanting especially for Winter sailing. Very curious to hear more about the Bruckmann 50 mk2 as I've never seen one here in British Columbia. Love your channel, keep it up!

I recently bought a 1995 Catalina Morgan and the thought entered my mind because the chanplates are hidden. We did get it to 11 knots on our passage to Ventura Ca. So I think it passed the strength test but I still wonder.🤔

2.5 decades for a mechanical device (306) is excellent. The difficulty is they buried it deep for easy replacement.

Even found one for sale here in newzealand

Man, I replaced the outboard chainplates on my Liberty Cutter 28 for less than $500. They were already outboard, but how can it cost $13,000 to patch some holes in the deck and install the chainplates?

I am looking at a 1985 Island Packet 27. I like the boat and this is coming from a guy that built Chris Crafts and a certified Mercury Mercruiser tech. First inspection of it has a few deck leaks but form the water line up is in good shape for age. Do not yet know if it runs or runs well but honestly at the accepted offer I gave don't care if it needs a engine. I found NOTHING to deter me from going forward. I know that the bottom was just done so another plus. My problem with it is the price. At my offer it is about $10,000 less than others I see. I know that a bad engine is $10,000 problem for most but not so much for me. This video scares me because you are right. I can not see the chain plates to inspect them.

Buying a house that old, you can expect to spend a similar sum. I think the issue is likely in the expectation-shaping category. Good work on the technical details and context here!

I love IP's thanks for the heads up about the chainplates in the 90s. Did you ever do a Cheoy Lee video? I think they are beautiful boats. I just am not sure about the quality of the build.

This is a great video and I for one appreciate your research on Island Packets. It would be nice to see what years you mean in your title, but that's a small quibble. I notice there are a bunch of very rude people commenting. Maybe they just aren't used to being around people anymore.

Have you done previously, or have you considered doing an episode about the Seaward brand? IPY currently has the molds for the 26 and 32 RK but won't build them. It's an interesting story.

You did not mention the tanks, water, fuel and holding. They also will fail on older boats. They will have to be ripped out and replaced with new ones. That means the cabin soul will have to be replaced. Very expensive. .

External chain plates are definitely the way to go no more leaking,encapsulated keel bolts or chain plates are stupid as crevice corrosion is really a huge problem, out of sight out of mind. Keel bolts are a great topic …what to use ?