1:17:30 - I do agree with you about the Jewish exclusivism that Paul is combating there in 1 Timothy (as well as 2 Cor 5). What I find ironic though is that the Calvinist position sorts of collapses into a similar idea since Salvation is exclusive to the pre-chosen Elect. This is a very similar argument that the Jewish person would be saying. "God chose us out of all the nations"... "Isaiah 53 says 'our' transgressions an that 'we' are healed by his wounds....no you gentiles."
@gregmahler9506Ай бұрын
For me, the biggest passages that shape my view of the Atonement of Christ are: 1. (Col 1:19-20) "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." 2. (1 John 2:1-2) "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." 3. (2 Cor 5:14-15) "For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised." 4. (Heb 2:9) "But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone." The above 4 passages, in my mind, show a undeniable universal application of the Atonement. In the first, we see the phrase "all things" accompanied by a further description: "whether on earth or in heaven". This leaves nothing out of the reconciliation and peace brought about as a result of the Cross. In the second, we see that not only is Christ the propitiation for the sins of believers but also non-believers out in the world. This is in perfect harmony with #1. In the 3rd, we see - TWICE - the phrase one/he "died for all", again showing universal reality to the death of Christ applied to all people, not just believers. It's just that believers now have a chance to take action upon that reality, turn from their sin, and start living for others through the power of Jesus's example. But the reality (and driving force) behind that change is Christ's death applied to all people. Not just some. But all. In the 4th passage, we see another all-inclusive phrase "by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone". Now the next 2 passages further dial in my view, added to the above thoughts: 5. (Gal 4:4-5) "But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons." 6. (Heb 9:15) "Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant." In #5 we see the phrase "to redeem those who were under the law" and in #6 we see a similar phrase "since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant". Adding this data to all the other passages above (1-4), it begins to look like this as far as a conclusion: Jesus's atonement was specifically directed at the sins committed under the Mosaic Law of Moses. It brought peace to the entire world (and even heaven itself) between God and humanity in a universal way. Though it was intended for the Jewish people who were born into bondage under the Law of Moses, it's blessings also extend to Gentiles who, while they do not have sins recorded under the law of Moses (because they did not have the law), they do have ignorant sins in need of reconciliation and to turn from those and live for Christ just like the Jewish people who were bound by the Law (but broke it directly). So while the atonement of Christ is universally applied to all things, only those who turn from their sin and live for Christ will be saved. Here are 2 final passages that bolster these ideas: 7. (Romans 5:10) "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." 8. (Heb 10:29) "How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?" In #7, we see that the reconciliation happened even before people believed, since they were enemies. This shows a universal application, both prior to faith and after. In #8, we see that there may be people who were sanctified by the blood of Jesus but don't end up being saved. This completely undermines any idea that a universal application of the atonement leads to universal salvation. Thus, we do not need to say "Sufficient for all but limited to believers" rather we can make a bolder claim "applied to all" with the caveat that atonement isn't the only condition that determines final salvation. I look forward to your thoughts on this.
@StandfaithfulАй бұрын
I think you’ve brought up some good passages to talk about. However, I think even in your argument we can see how our presuppositions dramatically effect how we read the text and come to conclusions. For instance, your use of Colossians 1 might lead some to believe that you’re arguing for universalism (absolutely everyone/everything is saved and none will experience hell). In other words, EVERYONE (and presumably, everything) is reconciled (saved) by the atoning work of Christ on the cross. However, if that view maintained, it would most likely be in direct contradiction of Hebrews 2:16 where we are directly (or so it seems) told that Christ does not “give help” to angels” (some of whom are being held in bondage for later judgement), if by “everything" we include angels. Another presupposition that influences your reading: You quote 1 John 2 assuming that his original audience somehow includes all believers so that when he writes, “and for the sins of the whole world” you instantly assume he’s referring to everyone outside of the umbrella of “believers." However, if you were to assume that John’s audience is a particular church or set of churches, the “and.. the whole world” could simply be referring to all those who believe all over the world in addition to his immediate audience. To be fair, on the show I argued for (perhaps) the same conclusion you are putting forth here. I’m simply trying to point out how our (your) presuppositions are dramatically impacting your conclusions.
@gregmahler9506Ай бұрын
@@Standfaithful- - I get that the “all things” Paul uses in Col 1 might not include angels, but I am just seeing the language Paul uses in regards to the “peace” between God and man and see it as being without exception and even (perhaps) reaching to human souls in the heavens. I don’t see this as a presupposition clouding the view, rather just trying to really deal with what Paul says in v19-20 seriously. I am not arguing for a universal salvation of all things and this is clear in the final paragraph of the piece I wrote. Lastly, I do assume that by “the whole world” John includes both believers and non-believers. I don’t see any other even feasible way to read that though. I see what you said as just as much of an assumption but a weaker one since it limits the scope of a phrase that John didn’t limit. Also remember John the Baptist said, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” Did he take them away or not?
@StandfaithfulАй бұрын
@@gregmahler9506 Greg, again, I side with the “unlimited” atonement view, so please don’t hear me arguing with your conclusions. I’m simply trying to make the point that our readings and conclusions are so shaded by our presuppositions that we find it preposterous that anyone shouldn’t see it our way. However, things become less “obvious” when we try to set aside those presuppositions and recognize the potential that the “other side” has a reasonable (though still incorrect) position.
@gregmahler9506Ай бұрын
19:00 - the very clear problem with your view about how Isaiah 53 and John 10 are picking up on the same things is that Jesus hasn’t died on the cross yet (in John 10) and yet has sheep that are following him so it can’t be that the death is what is causing them to be sheep that are following him. I hope you are able to see the problem there.
@micahsmith9560Ай бұрын
Hi Greg! I think that all people who have ever been converted, before or after the death of Christ, are converted and reconciled to God by the merits of His death. I don’t see the timing as an issue. Before or after the coming of Christ, it’s the benefits of His death that flow to them, gather them, and reconcile them to God.
@gregmahler9506Ай бұрын
@@micahsmith9560- the timing is an issue only if you want the view to makes sense I suppose then. Also why are these sheep needing to turn to the shepherd? If they were already sheep pulled along by the future death to Christ, at some point the view collapses into a sort of chicken and egg problem. They are sheep but not sheep (pulled along by the death but for a time not pulled along by it at the same time).
@MineStrongthАй бұрын
@@micahsmith9560So, it's the "benefits of Christ's death" that [draws] the chosen? Not God?
@gregmahler9506Ай бұрын
1:00:15 - This isn't true. One is "Many Nations" which would imply nations outside of Israel and in Isaiah 53, it seems to be exclusively about Israel when it uses the "many" because it switches to "our". "Our" sins. "We" are healed. The problem with the word "many" is that it means "a lot" but that is subjective to the person using it. "A lot" can mean "all" or just "a bunch of them". I find it very problematic to use Isaiah 52 and 53 as a CORE text about the THEORY of the Atonement because it is poetry and ambiguous and has a completely "Israelite" context and audience.