+docjjp I don't believe it would make a substantial difference no. We have done a range of tests with sharps, and when blades stay bound on their edges it can make quite a difference. But in this fight the rapier avoids, and disengages to stop that contact, and rolls onto it's flat as it goes into hand postures that would also stop that stick.

+Slava Mericer Thanks! The reason for the distance is for a few reasons. Firstly and I would say most importantly, to make long lunges with the rapier against longsword is really dangerous. Getting as low as you do in a long lunge can make it difficult to dominate the blade. Any failed attacks with a long lunge also make you very vulnerable. Also, when you have a much longer blade, you can reduce distance to allow faster attacks in a shorter distance, whilst your opponent is still at their maximum reach. Also by staying a little closer you threaten more with that speed to the degree that you discourage the longswordman from making large swings with the blade. The large swings are dangerous to both parties.

Academy of Historical Fencing Thanks for explanation.

+AUTOBOTGJB1997 There can, just as soon as I get a new smallsword or replace the blade on the one I have (it is broken). Rapier vs messer not so much, they are too distantly related to put against one another. Though the lighter hunting type of messer could be, those just resemble the sort of sabres we use, so look for sabre vs rapier which we have one video of and will be doing more soon. Yes we do sometimes spar with sickles. You will see them in use on the lucky dip exhibition video,

+AUTOBOTGJB1997 We are holding off doing much with the montantes right now until better gloves are available, which should be very soon. We could possibly do a video like that, but generally we really have to hold back with the montantes right now so the fights aren't that realistic or representative. With better gloves and some other additional protective gear it might be possible. I believe it was Swetnam who said, If you meet a two handed sword with rapier and dagger, throw the dagger at him. Seems like reasonable advice, followed by running. It would be a very dangerous fight.

I mainly think it would be an interesting fight seeing if the rapierist would be able to get around the montante user. Perhaps a rotella might help?

+AUTOBOTGJB1997 Rotella would help a lot. A sizeable shield is almost always a game changer.

I think it would be fantastic to see either type of fight, though I think a single rapier, or rapier and dagger vs montante would make for the most interesting exchange. Seeing a light weapon try to take on a large one

+Academy of Historical Fencing would a single sword fare better against a montante then a rapier?

+Level 58 Death Knight There is always a risk of afterblows of course, however you should be able to train to avoid the majority. When I started doing these sorts of fights against a range of opponents many years ago, most would come at me swinging with a lot of power and aggression, that resulted in them getting hit a whole lot more, and with powerful thrusts especially. Stopping a thrust landing is really difficult, so the question you really need to ask is would it be enough to incapacitate the longword user? Not always. But, if it were for real, having landed a thrust to a vital target area I would run it to the hilt and close as to not be struck in return, which cannot be simulated either. Ultimately if the rapier avoids engagements at wide measure then the longswordman can almost never close with power, unless he has no regard for his own life at all. The reality is that the rapier evolved for this kind of fight, and is exceptional at it.

Academy of Historical Fencing I believe when you say that you could run something through with a rapier, but it just doesn't look like a sturdy enough weapon to do something like that. I guess people are just softer than they seem.

Level 58 Death Knight You think it couldn't go through a person at all? It would just bend on their skin?

+Level 58 Death Knight It looked like the rapier blocked the longsword effectively, and I doubt it would have been cut through with sharps. The complex guard could probably take a decent cut too. There were several cuts from the rapier that I think you'd be hard pressed to say wouldn't cause significant damage to an unarmoured body. Very enjoyable fight, great use of measure.

Gregory Ford Yes of course. If the rapier did break, it would snap, it wouldn't be cut through. Evidently that didn't happen so we can say the same's true with sharps.

Red Dragon gloves are my standard which are like lacrosse. Considering the protective guard this should be enough, but the biggest weakness is the pinky as in bowl hilt sabres, consider a tip protector in that finger like the Spes plastic ones or ribber cricket finger protectors or similar. It is a risk though, and don't be surprised if you break some bars or the quillon on the rapier at some point.

+KorfantCadron Believe me he did try and attempt blade contact continually. That is the very reason for the low guard (fifth guard in Capo Ferro) and continuous disengagements with the rapier. Keep the rapier blade low has some massive advantages, providing you have either greater range than your opponent, or an offhand weapon. In this case, it is range. You can keep the blade low because you are controlling the distance at which they cannot strike from with a simple extension or lunge. It then also stops him from being so aggressive, because there is no weapon to engage, and therefore he cannot advance with any cover against the counter. This was not a strategy used by chance, but through a great amount of experience of this sort of fight.

+Academy of Historical Fencing Oh, now I see :) Still, I would let him try to make a blade contact in upper line and then thrust to the hand with a step backward. I prefer that more than provoking some heavy blows. Anyway, good fight :)

+KorfantCadron Seeing blade contact is so dangerous against a longsword. Despite the fact that is the core principal of attack with rapier, you just cannot stringer (dominate) the blade because of the leverage they have. Also far from provoking heavy blows, by avoiding blade contact, they are wary of making heavy blows because the threat of that point find them is ever there, rather than letting them bind and cut or drive against it.

+Academy of Historical Fencing I feel like the Longsword guy would be better served by starting our of distance with his left foot forwards, and coming to thrust distance with a passing step (so, an Oberhau or something). It might help avoid hand-snipes from the rapier until he's ready to attack, and then it would hopefully force the rapier fencer onto the defensive. Cutting with the longsword to clear the space and stepping forward with a thrust is a pretty versatile move. The counter-argument to that is that a rapier fencer with good point control could probably plant a stop-hit on the longsword guy's wrist as he comes in, or failing that go for the double with a thrust to the body. The other option I guess is to use a Geissland or similar free stroke to try to out-reach the rapier.

+MisdirectedSasha The people who start left foot forward and cut with a sort of typical oberhau/zornhau to close are the ones I find easiest to deal with. In this action they create so many openings for thrust work. The rapier can counter thrust in opposition with the hilt to protect, or use distance to let the cut pass and thrust as it does. Best way to fight a rapier with longsword is to get your blade out in front and seek and engagement, where you have a massive advantage with the two handed grip.

Given the difference in reach between the two weapons and the rapier's nimbleness that would just be opening a longsword up for an easy strike as even in a full lunge the longsword would still have less reach and the rapier could alway's just back up to account for the movement.

+MMSA Dalian The longsword can beat the rapier off, but not in guard or parries where the engagement is made at the forte, the strong part of the blade. Where it can do well at beating is during the rapiers lunge, a beat against the debile (weak) is really effective. This is why I use so many disengages to make it really difficult for that to happen. Typically a rapierist would seek to dominate the blade and drive through with that domination (stringer), but that is rarely possible, as even with forte against the longswordsman's debile, the longsword still has the advantage of leverage.

+MMSA Dalian It looks like the rapier guy in that video doesn't have much practice against longsword. At almost every single engagement he tried to fight low and under the longsword, that is one of the most dangerous things you can do. Even if you can land hits you are almost guaranteed to get struck afterwards. Only way to strike low is to force them into a static position and then strike with a fast recovery. Also he does not use hanging guards, which are vital when the longsword starts to press with strong cuts. The hanging guards are strong and provide excellent ripostes. His style is also coming from destreza, which is very different to the Italian style of Capo Ferro that we use. I think in many regards the destreza style is a disadvantage against longsword. Much of the movement creates to many openings, and distance is too easily closed. He frequently ends up in a brawl up close which will almost guarantee he gets hit, whether he lands a blow or not,

I am not skilled with a rapier or knowledgeable enough about its use to make those specific observations, but I came to the same general conclusion. In the the second video I linked the longswordsman was more skilled (at least in this weapon matchup). Videos like these two make the arguments people start in my club about "this weapon isn't fair against longsword" or whatever seem silly. It seems it really comes down to skill not weapon most of the time.Academy of Historical Fencing

+MMSA Dalian Individual skill will always be the most important factor, the weapon in hand just has a proportional impact on that result. That can give a fighter of equal skill a good advantage if their weapon is better in the context, or an inferior fighter the ability to match a much better one for example. As I said with that video I don't think it was the long swordsman that made the difference, but the rapier user who was not using the advantages of his weapon well, and entering into some very dangerous situations

+Michael Skinner Mike is the longsword instructor and he teaches from Meyer.

Danelli Armouries.

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Italian sword...thank you!!!

+derFaust The first thing to appreciate is that the fighters in many of these mixed weapon fights are not equal, sometimes they are. Individual skill will always be the most important factor, the choice of weapon does have a proportional effect on the outcome though. About rapiers and cutting. Firstly the pappanheimer is just a hilt type. It can carry all manner of blades from military type to very long civilian ones. Of course a shorter and broader blade would be better for cutting, but you only have to look at surviving treatise to realise that even the very long blades rapiers are still useful for cutting. Look to Capo Ferro and you will find very long rapiers in use. In fact the sword he is using would have around a 42-46" blade depending not he height of the user, and men of his time and place were not tall. Look to his treatise and you will find a massive amount of cutting involved. it is however more carefully targeted than many other weapons, the torso is not targeted at all, nor the shoulders. But the head, the neck and the limbs are all good targets. A cut delivered right, with he right arc of motion can deliver plenty of power even with a rapier like this. Hence how Adam had to stop when I hit his neck/collar. I pulled that blow, it was delivered through a thickly quilted jacket, and the blade was blunt, and still it was enough to make him stop. Cuts become especially important against those who close on you as well, and for targeting limbs when the opponent has shorter reach. In fact few rapiers are dedicated thrusting weapons, they just emphasis the point more than most swords before them.

Then again that's assuming you can get in range for that vs such footwork lol 😆 a peasant like me would just die and be like fuck it.

There are almost no references as to what to do in this situation, despite the weapons existing in the same time period. Saying that, techniques for mixed weapon combat are rare in most historical treatise. In our experience, those who try to cut strongly into the rapier, opening with zorhhaus for example, get hit hard and fast, and those who focus down their movements and look for an engagement, rather than a cut, are much more successful. This is in fact the principal for fighting against a spear with a sword.

Thank you for the comprehensive answer! I assumed it would be better if the Longsword user tried to displace the rapier since it should (according to my understanding) easier than displacing other swords (such as longswords). By "engagement", are you referring to blade contact or perhaps something else entirely? Thank you very much!

Yes, just seeking an blade contact, at which point the longsword user has massive control over the rapier due to the leverage of the two handed grip.

It does make sense... The Longsword has greater "Blade Presense", plus greater leverage. So it should excell in Blade Contact in comparison to the rapier. Thank you very much!

One issue is that running a opponent through with a rapier wouldn't necessarily stop them from delivering a deadly cut or thrust. George Silver was absolutely correct in this regard. You see various accounts of a soldiers who makes a successful thrust against an opponent but still gets injured or killed by the foe's attack.

The rapier blade is about 5" or 12.5cm longer, overall length is about the same.

It's extremely hard to do as just getting past te point is tough, and then when you do the agility of the light blade and one handed grip mean the blade is quickly moved out of reach, even if you can reach it, they are sharp on both edges and so difficult and dangerous to grab until you can make it static. Then if you do go to grappling, you have really lost all the advantages of the longsword, as the rapier can grapple much the same. The advantage of the longsword is in the leverage of the two handed grip, and whilst you binding up and grappling a one handed sword is nowhere as easy as another longsword.

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing that makes sense. I just never really see it attempted in any of the sparring videos I've watched, in spite of it being a major part of the historical martial art. I thought there might be some rule against it in modern competition.

Well it's the person not the sword. If we gave the rapier guy the longsword and the longsword guy the rapier, the better guy would still win.

Betrayal hit

+_TheShrubCrusader_ The rapier is not a thrusting weapon. Look to Capo Ferro and you will find an immense amount of cutting, including from Prime, which is one of the best ways to cut. As for the parries, the fact is that when fighting mixed weapons, some weapons force you to adapt. Single time (contratempo) defences rarely work as you cannot dominate the blade of the longsword. Dead parries on the other hand provide excellent coverage whilst you seek other openings. There is plenty of cut work in rapier, and some of those cuts are an excellent way to counter longsword, especially those cuts to the leg, and to counter when they close.

forgive me, I was confusing it with Epee

+_TheShrubCrusader_ No problem, that is a common mistake. To put it into context, most epees weigh around 500 grams, often less. The rapier I am using here is 1.32kg. not only that, it has a completely different blade profile, having edges that the epee does not, and more mass in the tip.

Ha! I gather the Japanese made a similar request once upon a time.

+401 Kill Nope, all target zones, all the time.

+Academy of Historical Fencing "Kill shot! That's a kill shot!"

Cutting obviously does work with rapier

Fencing - the art of defence. All swordsmanship is fencing. No, duels were not won by aggression. Some fights were without a doubt, but great fighters survived through skill, not aggression. The rapier is not just loved on youtube, it was loved in its day, because it was a brutally efficient and effective killer. So much so that in England for example, it was often considered a bully's weapon, because it gave unfair advantages and those who used them set out to kill, not just defend themselves. The rapier is one of the most effective swords in history, that is why it is loved so much.