The winner here is the player, triple coaching

"Have you seen Dopa?" ...the better question is: "Have you seen Gross Gore?"

1:08:00 I tutor college physics and this is a big issue even in academics. The best way I've found to pace your response to questions is to respond with "how would you approach the problem?" then the tutee responds with "well you.... but I dont see how to apply this, or I get lost going to this step" and then both the tutor and the tutee are focused in on the exact crux of the question. Also Zen asks "do you have any questions?" when its better to ask "what questions do you have?". Small difference, but when there is a difference in position between a teacher and a student, the first one can lead to stonewalling because the student is afraid to waste the teacher's time or look stupid, whereas the second one engages in that grey area thinking since they are asked to sift through the info for anything noteworthy, and that can cause more productive dialogues. overall, coaches should look into active learning techniques instead of lecturing since most of the lecture will be missed without the proper frame of mind. Challenge the tutee with hypotheticals, questions, and discussions rather than letting them get by being a passive recipient.

Zen Coaching is a nice guy not only for uploading most of his stuff for free online, but also for letting you evaluate him publicly. Really gotta respect him for that and for wanting to improve. And I swear to god if any Silver guy here starts flaming Zen, because LS and Nemesis criticized the stuff Zen said in a video, then I'm absolutely losing it. Odds are 99.9% of this comment section knows less about the game and has done less for League edu content than Zen. The guy is doing everything with good intentions, the fact that he asked LS to evaluate him (after the last guy got a shit storm) shows that once again. Nobody is perfect, I mean even LS is wrong 99% of the time. Long story short: no hate towards Zen pls, shoutout to Zen for doing this and thank you LS for doing content like this, I enjoy it a lot.

Tried to explain what I was watching to my dad. "It's a guy who is commenting another guy who is coaching a third guy who is playing a game that I like to play."

I liked Nemesis being here because LS is reviewing the validity of the coach's arguments while Nemesis can critique how the information is conveyed and how effective a teacher the guy is.

My mind was blown when he said "Dopa doesn't do this" with no further reasoning as to why he thinks the Q is bad. With that said, I respect the guy for giving LS and Nemesis permission to criticize and analyze his coaching. It shows willing to improve, and in this community, it shows courage.

Time for my Gold brain to get Fried.

I think evaluation of coaches is something we almost never see in the league scene and it'll for sure be good in the long run. I really hope coaches can take away something from any criticism they get and improve their services.

It took them 30 minutes before he hit level 2.

Guy on orianna just got coaching for free from LS and Nemesis Pog xD

Amy's baking company. That's one horrid video I want to forget

Dopa doesn't Q the wave he should know this.

Finally some coaching from LS

Respect to zen for facilitating this

I don't play League anymore, but I watch your channel religiously. Listening to both of you guys break stuff down is fascinating, and I wish you guys would make more of it. The one thing I would ask is that you and Nemesis make a video on how your knowledge of the game has improved over time and what were some of the biggest hurdles you've had in your coaching and analytical career. Also what are some things that you still find tough to grapple with as you continue to master your understanding of the game and players psychology. Thanks!

15:00 man just went full Hikaru Nakamura with drawing those lines there

that's cool man, zen's a big fan of yours.

Zen is taking a 2 month break to try and learn more about this game, which is kind of nice to hear.

Great content, unfortunately chat was very toxic during. Will most likely discourage future coaches from putting themselves out there. Props to Zen for the effort.

This is the biggest issue I have with some coaches atm, the player ends up bombarded with so much overly specific information rather than good general advice that can applied in multiple games. Was nice to see it being pointed out. When the coach asks for feedback on the information it's almost always going to be replied with 'I understand' because the player is still trying to process the mountain of information that's been thrown at him.

"Have you played against Faker", yeh bro like yesterday i sat on his face in soloq bro.

I love this. The fact that Zen provided permission is even better. To see my favorite coach review my second favorite coach's coaching was something I have been waiting for for a long time. To be fair, watching Zen and LS's coaching videos have helped me a lot as a player going from Bronze to Diamond in my first season in League playing top lane. The focus on fundamentals for both has allowed me to slow down the game and evaluate each and every decision I make in my ranked games rather than focusing on the actions of my teammates. Thank you for doing this LS and thank you for providing your permission Zen. It takes a lot of effort to produce content like this and I am infinitely grateful. Also, props to Zen for putting yourself out there and showing that you are willing to take criticism on your content and use it as an opportunity for improvement, which takes a lot of guts to do, combined with the fact that doing so shows that you really care about the game, the player base and are willing to make sure that the information you are providing in your content is correct. While I am sad that LS no longer coaches publicly, anyone who would like to improve at the game and get rid of their teammate-blaming mindset should check out the videos from both coaches as they not only show, but also explain why only what you do in game matters and allow you to eliminate any toxic mindset or negative assumptions you have about the game.

I’ve taken a few months off of league but this video is probably gonna get my feed filled with it again

LS your minset and content helped me a lot ty XD

Oh man.. I want to see Zen react to this now!

I though this a full 1 hour lvl 1 Laning phase coaching.

He sounds like he’s doing his best ls impression

you shouldv done this with zen that way the discussion wouldv been better overall

This is meta coaching. I hope there will be a coach's coach who can review this coach coaching in order to have a meta-meta-coaching

Call to authority should just never be an argument in coaching. Understanding the "why is someone else doing it?" is way more important than "that someone is doing it".

When you say you have to pretend to believe what he’s saying for a moment, it’s called giving someone the benefit of the doubt. I think this is a great idea and wish more people did this

The best of the best always know they have a lot to learn and never stop trying to be better. This was awesome form so many different points of view since it's just people trying to get better at what they are passionate about... be it playing, coaching, creating content etc... it's just nice top see people taking criticism willingly to get better and not taking things as a personal attack but opportunity to improve!

The lesson here is: Just play like Dopa 4Head

All video: I agree -nemesis

Watching this video the whole time thinking "He's trying not to ruin this whole mans career."

Hey LS, have you ever though of using the chess term zugzwang. It means "its ur turn to do something, but every choice is losing" It could be used in league if (for example), you shove into tower and start a fight in jg. If the laner moves they lose cs to tower, and if they stay their jg falls behind. Your actions put them in zugzwang.

watching this as an aspiring coach is amazing, would love to see more of this.

I think Zen normally does use first person perspective IIRC! Love the constructive feedback though

11:53 you can feel that LS doesn't want to continue anymore, I wouldn't either after that statement

Now I want to see Zen reacting to LS reacting to Zen coaching.

Zen coaching challengers guys Me in Silver IV: Oh yes, he is right. I was thinking about it as well

Watching this honestly was a joy to see. I learned quite a bit

40 minutes in and i learned that i should watch dopa, because dopa doesnt q the wave lvl 1

He talks a little too quickly which can occasionally make what he is saying confusing to follow. Definitely feel like he needs to slow down to make what he is saying is clearer and easier to follow.

First of all: apologies for any mistakes when it comes to language used. English is not my first language so feel free to comment on that. Edit: I also wanna add that I very much appreciate the points about not learning anything, ending review at lvl 4, player's agency and understanding. These are all crucial points that will improve the quality of zen's coaching tremendously which is really great. I do agree with many points about the delivery of his teaching. About the game stuff, I'm no person to comment on it but I'm gonna do it anyways (criticism very welcome ofc). He does put a lot of information on a player. In other vods though he explains himself to clients by telling them this is a recording - you can analyze it very thoroughly afterwards. I do see how it can seem like a manipulation technic without the disclaimer but honestly with this in mind I am on zen's side here. Ok, next thing is I think there's a pattern in this video where zen says something and LS counterpoints it with specifics (although I admit it makes f.e. zen's point about cheater wrong in this particular game and he didn't talk about it, it is a concept that holds true in many cases and I would agree with zen to talk about generals rather than specifics since the coaching time is finite. Still he definitely should've talked about the exceptions to the rule). It happens in forementioned cheater discussion but also in the velkoz's point of view talk. Zen proceeds to talk about a general concept but lefts out exceptions, which is obviously wrong. But from the LS comment alone my take away would be that zen's just plain wrong (which again he is but only to a certain degree). Imo this comes from his ideology about low mmr v high mmr. From what I've heard him say (but I may obv have interpreted his words incorrectly) he believes that in low mmr matchups don't matter as much as to decide the outcome of the laning phase and therefore game. You basically win by applying the general concepts. OBVIOUSLY this is not a low mmr player so using ideology for low mmr players shouldn't be correct. But MAYBE he decided to make an exception after seeing this guy play. Again, I agree that leaving out specifics is plain wrong but instead of discarding the point one can pinpoint this mistake. It might be a wrong decision but LS doesn't tell zen he's focusing on things that aren't crucial mistakes which the client needs to work on to improve. Now to the last situation I wanna talk about (yes, I know that's not a lot of situations analyzed but spare me going through the whole video again) - the 6th wave. I love that this time LS spends time to talk about the mistake in coaching here and does it very well (even though he doesn't include info f.e. about jungle - probably because lillia is hovering, but idk). Again in my opinion the play LS suggested is better than zen's. Still I think it is correct in some cases relative to the jungle. In this game there isn't much risk so he can push the wave in and reset. But if you have tp and you need to play safe you can flip or go with zen's play which I think makes a lot of sense then. But this is game stuff so I'm just hoping to show that no party specifies that under certain circumstances each of the sequences may be better than the other so we shouldn't discard any of them, rather tell players what factors decide which one to go for. Ok, so to sum it up: I mostly agree with LS's points but not with the delivery since it doesn't pinpoint the mistakes zen makes in his points. This post is indeed a little bit emotional since as a (very) low mmr player I find much of his content ridiculously helpful but I sincerely hope I do make at least some sense.

I gotta say I love how lately most ppl LS streams with are sort of in the same footing as him, so to speak. It doesn't feel like he's better than the person he's talking to or worse, and they actually get to discuss shit and point out things the other might've missed

Love 31:20 and the discussion on whether or not Froggen can dodge the q

"You should have AERHGLAIERUGHEA, you should have QWOIUGHCALEGU instead so you AWEUIHADIUGH, do you have any questions?" Pro or not, I think Zen just slowing down is all around a good thing for both parties. I never got that Vibe from LS nor his previous coaching videos, he's always easy to follow because he articulates well.

"Amy's Baking Company version of Kitchen Nightmares" OMEGALUL good one Last Shadow

52:30 The red bar watching this video lines up with the other red bar in the video. Pure satisfaction.

Ori hit level 2 at 30 minutes into the video I'm having an aneurysm

Although this content might be quite dense, it is super useful for people learning the game as well as learning how to identify useful coaching. I hope you guys do more stuff like this. Great job, keep it up, proud of you.

8:37 Actually yes there is Nemesis, if you auto vel like he's saying they agro you, you then run back (not too fast) and the minions will chase you to the middle of the lane, it's a really hard trick to do but if this is what the coach is discussing I agree with him, and if he had fast killed the first 3 this truck with casters is impossible. But I still don't know if that's a wave state you want with Ori vs Vel, as an Irelia or something with all in threat this is very ideal and I use it myself if I can.

LS is actually wrong in this video because Dopa wouldn't do that

LS please do a video on wave management, every scenario of wave control when to recall and other stuff.

Well I just started getting back into league after five years out thanks to wild rift . I was always a huge fan of LS , he is however one of the smartest and most intelligent people I have ever known. Glad to know he is still going strong. He is a beautiful human being. Nice videos too

this is peer-reviewed research article

I really like this video since not only does it help out the coach who needed evaluation, it also helps us out.

i enjoyed this a lot when i watched it live gives a lot of insight on edu content in league and where it has to improve, hope you can do more content like this

20:16 "The best player I've played against in lane... Nisqy probably" "Jesus, ok..." ROFL

Finally got around to watching this in its entirety. I'd just like to say that I appreciate that the channel will feature some long-form content like this. When the channel swapped over to T1's content, I was afraid of the content trending toward ~10 min. videos to garner clicks instead of the long play stuff. Seeing this type of video will keep my subscription going. Thanks.

This is SUPER good video, learned A LOT from it, thanks ls and nemesis

Hey LS, not sure if you are gonna end up reading this but I wanted to say this video was a lot better than the one on coach Curtis which I remember you vaguely criticising him personally over his ideas (I might be wrong but I remember feeling uncomfortable when watching that video, I apologise if this is inaccurate). The only other thing I would add is to expand on the ideas you mention like why can't you cheater recall on some champions etc. Thank you for the content as always.

"We have LS at home." LS at home:

I can barely hear the coaching vod and LS yelling blew my ears out

“Dopa doesn’t do that” this deserves a noble price

shoutout to Zen for calling the sport by its proper name, football

44:20 I had an ad that started with "because of Jesus Christ..." xD

It should be about more than just guidelines and paths. They also need to documenting their progression. To make sure that they are doing more than just thinking they are applying the guidelines and paths.

zen coaching is someone i used to advise a lot of players to go to when i did not want to work with them. this was like 2 years ago

I love watching zen rant on his players but I didn’t think I’d love LS ranting on zen more

Can't wait for a coach to analyse this video and post it.

I feel like this is the best coaching ever, like we get to see the game and two/three different opinions and view on the game!

400 likes 3 dislikes and the 1 hr vid has been out for 10, wtf

Thank you for taking the time to do this LS and Nemesis. 👍 😎

The suspense was unreal, can he dodge the Ori q?

Yo good morning from America !

We need more content like this, just in league in general

Definitely taking notes when LS talks

"Okay... So he just doesn't do that?" lol

one hour to vod 3 minutes of gameplay league is something else XD

That "WOW" on 19:27 gave me a heart attack XDD

I really really like these type of coachception videos, more please daddy LS

Really interesting content LS, been wondering what your thoughts were on the things he tell high elo players. Also very pleased that it was uploaded to KZfaq since I can't always be there for the stream. Thank you LS.

Playing with a Coach is like: When an anime character is about to punch his opponent then the analysis frame suddenly popped up and that punch actually landed on the next episode

I love how we spent an hour on the first 3 minutes

Loved the Amy's Bakery reference! A+

This is the content I watch LS for. I watch him for edu content. Great vid

LS discovering what bias is in this video is very wholesome. IRL character arc.

Makes first point in the video, LS immediately: *I DISAGREE* This is going to be great

I've watched Dopa so much I can now coach anyone

LS quietly saving his own coaching job 😏

1:12:37 is important for lots of y’all

great video ! thanks for the analysis

Neace plz

I liked the video specifically for what you said at 5 minutes. Well said.

Keep up the good work. You are doing great.

Do you think these coaches intentionally try to make the player feel like they're constantly making mistakes so they come back for more coaching?

5:05 most scientists and academics don't even recognize subtle internal biases, and here we have a lol coach more learned in fundamental human psychology than most "high minded" PhDs. I have considerably more respect for critical thinkers over the general public. And your success is absolutely a reflection of your comprehensive thinking capacity. Sorry to say but if you're anything like most of us, you'll continue to be doubted while continually proven right in the end. Gotta work on the temper/anger, and if you were single I'd slide into those DMs.